Op, I completely disagree with many of your points. For example you claim that rpers are disappearing (which you claim is due to lack of support) and then you claim that they form the glue that holds your community together, both of which the numbers disprove. Rpers only make up ~5% of a playerbase. They are disappearing because there are flatly more places for them to go, and the playerbases tend to be larger. Any lack of support is due mainly to the fact that rpers both play less than more "normal" players and are said tiny percent. Plus rpers are rather elitist. They like being part of their tiny niche, and they tend to have other psychological problems, using rp as a means of coping.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
"They like being part of their tiny niche, and they tend to have other psychological problems, using rp as a means of coping."
We can be elitist and like being in cliques too much. But psychological problems? I don't need a guy who thinks he is Captain America to tell me we have psychological problems thanks.
I played SWG from day 1 to its very last day. It had its ups it had its downs (CU-NGE) but no matter what i always found that RP in that game was so vivid and full of life. You could always tell who was a new RPer and who was a vet. But no matter what in the end it always felt like ready a book.
What i miss from the original release was the skill progression. It allowed veterans and noobs to figh together without the standard *if hes ten levels higher you get nothing* issue it todays mmos.
i could log into SWG and RP for hours apon hours across all the planets. Its sandbox build and jump to lightspeed expansion made it the number one mmorpg out there IMO.
Ive been across MMOs today and i find myself finding the same thing over and over. People join rp servers and rush to max level just so they can RP but that can take anywhere from 2 weeks to a month of work.
Now the best RPing ive ever done in any game was in Second life. from SWRP to Gor, to a meriad of different RP worlds. I got so addicted to Second life Roleplaying as there was legitimatly nothing you couldnt do. If you think of it chances are its been made you just need to find it.
"Plus rpers are rather elitist. They like being part of their tiny niche, and they tend to have other psychological problems, using rp as a means of coping."
To the above yes i can agree some RPers can be elitist but for good reasons. We enjoy or story telling and its rather annoying when "normal" players as you refer to them grief us and ruin our game. This is why we keep to ourselves. As for psychological problems? Not all humans have a mental fortitude of steal and every deals with issues differently. If a video allows a person peace and escape who are you to judge them?
But thats only a minority within the RP groups. The majority of roleplayers like myself roleplay and choose who we RP with carefully because we want mind challenging stories and indepth game play that truly feels like another life in of itself. Actually one RPer i played with in Second life is an accomplished novelist.
The "normal" boring grind and gear tread mill is just to plain and simplistic. its not mentally engaging for us.
Though I find it sad, the time where roleplayers, story and immersion was an MMO's source of primary income is well and truly past. Roleplayers are loyal, yes, but also in such an extreme minority that no profit can be generated from roleplayers alone. We are simply not the target audience. Gamers looking for easy fun or online entertainment, raiding, PvP, all generate more income.
That is not to say a game can't increase their profit by catering to roleplayers, but roleplaying is a niche, with a relatively low amount of players, especially outside the mainstream MMO.
I mean, I love roleplaying, but still, it's pretty obvious we're not a cash cow.
In fact, we're a cost; for a game to 'do it right' on our behalf.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
"They like being part of their tiny niche, and they tend to have other psychological problems, using rp as a means of coping."
We can be elitist and like being in cliques too much. But psychological problems? I don't need a guy who thinks he is Captain America to tell me we have psychological problems thanks.
That is Captain Murica. But yeah, the data would disagree with you.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
"They like being part of their tiny niche, and they tend to have other psychological problems, using rp as a means of coping."
We can be elitist and like being in cliques too much. But psychological problems? I don't need a guy who thinks he is Captain America to tell me we have psychological problems thanks.
That is Captain Murica. But yeah, the data would disagree with you.
Well now I know who Captain Murcia is, it must be more a US thing.
A couple of papers proves little. Might I ask, was a random set of people used as a control group? If you take a sub set of society you are going to find people with "psychological problems" especially if that's what you are looking for. So a random group of people as a control would be essential.
A couple of papers proves little. Might I ask, was a random set of people used as a control group? If you take a sub set of society you are going to find people with "psychological problems" especially if that's what you are looking for. So a random group of people as a control would be essential.
Not quite, because this was pulled from a total playerbase. Those particular findings are pulled from many terabytes of data pulled from Eq2 total metrics. Though there has also been similar findings from a similar chunk pulled from total player metrics from Second Life. Though it is only pulled from a single game, and may not be conclusive for all playerbases it must be taken at face value until more data is acquired.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Roleplaying is definitely one facet of the greater goal of giving players context within the game world so that they spend their time focusing on being part of it (of which the community is one part) rather than leveling through it. When a player's interactions with the world environment and other players in the game world has more meaning or relevance than just necessities for progression, stronger communities form within the player population.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Roleplaying is definitely one facet of the greater goal of giving players context within the game world so that they spend their time focusing on being part of it (of which the community is one part) rather than leveling through it. When a player's interactions with the world environment and other players in the game world has more meaning or relevance than just necessities for progression, stronger communities form within the player population.
I do not feel that is a fair assessment and would love to see data to the contrary. I do not see how roleplaying your own story within the game world brings deeper or more meaningful interaction than say being part of a raid team.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Originally posted by jimdandy26 I do not see how roleplaying your own story within the game world brings deeper or more meaningful interaction than say being part of a raid team.
I agree, and made no such claim to the contrary.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by jimdandy26 I do not see how roleplaying your own story within the game world brings deeper or more meaningful interaction than say being part of a raid team.
I agree, and made no such claim to the contrary.
Fair enough. I seemingly read too much into your comment about "necessities for progression". I enjoy good debate, especially when taking the unpopular position but there is far too much "you shot my dog" feelings coming from the popular side so I tend to get defensive.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
You did not shoot my dog, but I have a bit of a bug when it comes to scientific accuracy. I think it is reasonable to extrapolate from a few games to many. But like most social studies this starts from the assumption you don't need a control group, coming from a background in biology I always question that.
Further I would not expect this to be done for every study. Such studies of groups could be compared to a control group for the year it was done. But sociologists see no reason to do this, they think they can iron out internal bias with methodology and personal veracity. That is very questionable in my eyes.
I wonder how many people in a control group would seen as needing a group as a crutch, have addictive behaviour and so on? While I do not discount such work, it always raises a question mark with me.
You did not shoot my dog, but I have a bit of a bug when it comes to scientific accuracy. I think it is reasonable to extrapolate from a few games to many. But like most social studies this starts from the assumption you don't need a control group, coming from a background in biology I always question that.
Further I would not expect this to be done for every study. Such studies of groups could be compared to a control group for the year it was done. But sociologists see no reason to do this, they think they can iron out internal bias with methodology and personal veracity. That is very questionable in my eyes.
I wonder how many people in a control group would seen as needing a group as a crutch, have addictive behaviour and so on? While I do not discount such work, it always raises a question mark with me.
Because in biology its generally gathering data for a hypothesis based on some sort of change. This was nothing more than pure measurement of data. You do not need a control group when asking how many cherries there are in your cup of fruit cocktail.
You can find similar studies from both Yee and Bartle. Bartle still has his own personal blog, and arguably has the most hands on expertise. Yee has his Daedlus project, which is unfortunately no longer updated, but still has a ton of data still floating around if you want to nab it.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Originally posted by jimdandy26 Op, I completely disagree with many of your points. For example you claim that rpers are disappearing (which you claim is due to lack of support) and then you claim that they form the glue that holds your community together, both of which the numbers disprove. Rpers only make up ~5% of a playerbase. They are disappearing because there are flatly more places for them to go, and the playerbases tend to be larger. Any lack of support is due mainly to the fact that rpers both play less than more "normal" players and are said tiny percent. Plus rpers are rather elitist. They like being part of their tiny niche, and they tend to have other psychological problems, using rp as a means of coping.
No. A coping skill is not something that requires a pathology to utilize. Are you licensed and trained to diagnose these symptoms? If so, where did you get the background information disclosed in order to perform your assessment? In what way was their behavior maladaptive enough to warrant the Dx in the first place?
If you are going to say people are displaying psychological symptoms, that is more than just the measurement of data. It is analysing, deciding certain behaviour indicates psychological issues and then coming up with a theory about why the group fosters such behaviour.
Most MMO's have a huge teenage contingent. Do the same study in a high school and see if they don't have dependencies, display addictions and so on. If roleplayers then showed more aberrant behaviour there could be something in it. But if you only look at the dataset you are studying you will find what you want to find.
Oh and if you want to do some roleplaying and are not concerned you are going to develop a psychological illness, Lotro really does stand out above the crowd.
If you are going to say people are displaying psychological symptoms, that is more than just the measurement of data. It is analysing, deciding certain behaviour indicates psychological issues and then coming up with a theory about why the group fosters such behaviour.
I believe that data was pulled from the actual survey's given out. On that count I am not sure. I do trust data Koster blogs about because he tends to not link anything that he does not find viable.
Most MMO's have a huge teenage contingent. Do the same study in a high school and see if they don't have dependencies, display addictions and so on. If roleplayers then showed more aberrant behaviour there could be something in it. But if you only look at the dataset you are studying you will find what you want to find.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Once again I would question that. You do realise that many players are underage and do not fill in surveys telling everyone they are underage? Think back to your youth, would you allow an 18+ certificate to stop you playing the game all your friends were talking about? Occasionally in a game like PS2 they speak on the guild chat or local area chat, I usually advise them to keep stum as they are decent guys and I would not want them to be reported. Fact is I doubt they are a day over 13.
Also I think you like me were not a teenager when MMO's started. Would you as a teenager not make out you were older in chat and on forums? We all like to make out we are older than we really are at that age.
I agree the excepted wisdom is that players are mainly in their 20's to 30's, and I would say yes to that in games like Lotro. But WoW, PS2, Defiance, SWTOR, GW2 not so sure. Anything new, or with an IP kids know well or guns, well I would be playing them if I was 13.
Once again I would question that. You do realise that many players are underage and do not fill in surveys telling everyone they are underage? Think back to your youth, would you allow an 18+ certificate to stop you playing the game all your friends were talking about? Occasionally in a game like PS2 they speak on the guild chat or local area chat, I usually advise them to keep stum as they are decent guys and I would not want them to be reported. Fact is I doubt they are a day over 13.
Also I think you like me were not a teenager when MMO's started. Would you as a teenager not make out you were older in chat and on forums? We all like to make out we are older than we really are at that age.
I agree the excepted wisdom is that players are mainly in their 20's to 30's, and I would say yes to that in games like Lotro. But WoW, PS2, Defiance, SWTOR, GW2 not so sure. Anything new, or with an IP kids know well or guns, well I would be playing them if I was 13.
Because its similar to the data produced by muds and the data being pulled from teenagers that will take surveys. The teenager data is especially interesting because of just how console heavy it is. Unfortunately that paper is behind a wall and I can't link to it.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Welcome to 'The Great Playstyle Wars 2.0: Why (insert players you don't like) Isn't What Publishers Want'.
Might as well do my part in the Wars 2.0 and make a case that roleplayers are far better for a game than achievement twinkers.
Let's say, for argument sake, roleplayers who self-identify as roleplayers comprise 5%. That's actually a lot, considering that EQ2 isn't designed to be roleplay friendly.
That's 1 in 20.
Now let us take hardcore raiders. They, too, comprise a small minority of the players in a typical MMO...more like 1%, if you listen to folks like Jeremy Gaffney. That's 1 in 100...perhaps even less.
And yet you find--in every MMO for the last 10 years or so--this hardcore twink demographic is given the lion's share of development time and resources...out of proportion to its actual size. It's expensive to cater to them, too. They get bored easily. They constantly want bigger, more complicated challenges to surmount. This is content that takes a lot of time and $$$ to develop. And once they launch the new content, it's scoured over in less than a week by the hardcore minority who then yawn, come here to MMORPG.com, complain that the game isn't developed enough, and leave for other games until the next thing comes out.
So you have, post-launch, most of a developer's time and energy invested in quest chains that nobody but a handful of players will ever do, simply to feed the twink-beast that is never really satisfied for long.
By comparison, roleplayers are some of the easiest and cheapest players to draw and maintain. All you need are chat bubbles, emotes, costumes and settings (houses, structures and such). The roleplayers will do the rest. And the great thing about giving roleplayers tools is that the other players--those who don't consider themselves roleplayers--use those tools as well.
40-65% of players neither achieve nor roleplay. They are solo PvE players. Now, answer me. Please do. What will serve these players better? Giving them roleplay tools like chat bubbles and emotes? Or giving them another uber-raid they'll never do, another ladder ranking they'll never care about, and another piece of the 13371yfe they'll never get? I bet you they'd like the things they can actually have, versus the things that they will soon find out--in short order--they'll never have.
But if you hear those who swear up and down that 'Roleplayers don't deserve accomodation', you'd swear that we were all just lining up looking to stick headsets in our ears and go on raids all night. Talk about serving a minority at the expense of a majority, man. We've been there and done that.
Am I saying that a game shouldn't do raids? No, they should be treated like any other minority interest and be given raids, just like every other minority interest out there (like roleplayers).
But to come here and demand that a game should deny the few, simple things that roleplayers want in favor of more combat content is just plain silly. Even if we assume roleplayers are 1 in 20 (5%), denying that 1 in 20 the basic stuff they need in favor of one evening of twink content for the 1 in 100 is just bad resource allocation.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
All the types of players who stay the course in a MMO have been binned as a design priority. Roleplayers, hardcore, PvP lovers, have all been put on the back burner. But that's now effecting raiders too, GW2 did not even bother to have raids.
Any of these player types is good for the community as they will stay longer than most. But roleplayers can really create something special, I will never forget my time in the Shire, with Hobbit players acting as if there was nothing dangerous out there. They would discuss the weather and how the potatoes were doing and wonder what a Dwarf like me was doing in the Shire.
Thanks for the article of RP in MMO's. I have played MMOs long enough to know I am not the greatest guild member when it comes to talking and stuff, but I do help the guild by giving member stuff, and racking up guild points whenever possible. But I'm a crappy talker like I said. However; the other night on C9 the non-developer guy (or girl) invited all who wanted to to a place on a map by the ocean and we had prizes in a Q&A session. About 50 people were there, and it was kind of fun, even for me. Yuo reference it in your article "but if developers give them the infrastructure to support the more social aspects -- places to gather, items in the world to interact with and use, places inside and outside quest hubs – then it’s like hanging a welcome sign on the gate." So, maybe for guys like me it is better to do stuff like that rather than be interrupted while in the heat of battle by an unwelcome request for help..... maybe I'm selfish with my time, who knows. ----PEACE.
Comments
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
"They like being part of their tiny niche, and they tend to have other psychological problems, using rp as a means of coping."
We can be elitist and like being in cliques too much. But psychological problems? I don't need a guy who thinks he is Captain America to tell me we have psychological problems thanks.
I played SWG from day 1 to its very last day. It had its ups it had its downs (CU-NGE) but no matter what i always found that RP in that game was so vivid and full of life. You could always tell who was a new RPer and who was a vet. But no matter what in the end it always felt like ready a book.
What i miss from the original release was the skill progression. It allowed veterans and noobs to figh together without the standard *if hes ten levels higher you get nothing* issue it todays mmos.
i could log into SWG and RP for hours apon hours across all the planets. Its sandbox build and jump to lightspeed expansion made it the number one mmorpg out there IMO.
Ive been across MMOs today and i find myself finding the same thing over and over. People join rp servers and rush to max level just so they can RP but that can take anywhere from 2 weeks to a month of work.
Now the best RPing ive ever done in any game was in Second life. from SWRP to Gor, to a meriad of different RP worlds. I got so addicted to Second life Roleplaying as there was legitimatly nothing you couldnt do. If you think of it chances are its been made you just need to find it.
"Plus rpers are rather elitist. They like being part of their tiny niche, and they tend to have other psychological problems, using rp as a means of coping."
To the above yes i can agree some RPers can be elitist but for good reasons. We enjoy or story telling and its rather annoying when "normal" players as you refer to them grief us and ruin our game. This is why we keep to ourselves. As for psychological problems? Not all humans have a mental fortitude of steal and every deals with issues differently. If a video allows a person peace and escape who are you to judge them?
But thats only a minority within the RP groups. The majority of roleplayers like myself roleplay and choose who we RP with carefully because we want mind challenging stories and indepth game play that truly feels like another life in of itself. Actually one RPer i played with in Second life is an accomplished novelist.
The "normal" boring grind and gear tread mill is just to plain and simplistic. its not mentally engaging for us.
In fact, we're a cost; for a game to 'do it right' on our behalf.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
That is Captain Murica. But yeah, the data would disagree with you.
http://www.raphkoster.com/2010/02/15/what-roleplayers-look-like/
There is also real data why "virtual worlds" have disappeared.
http://www.raphkoster.com/2011/06/03/are-virtual-worlds-just-for-kids/
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Well now I know who Captain Murcia is, it must be more a US thing.
A couple of papers proves little. Might I ask, was a random set of people used as a control group? If you take a sub set of society you are going to find people with "psychological problems" especially if that's what you are looking for. So a random group of people as a control would be essential.
Not quite, because this was pulled from a total playerbase. Those particular findings are pulled from many terabytes of data pulled from Eq2 total metrics. Though there has also been similar findings from a similar chunk pulled from total player metrics from Second Life. Though it is only pulled from a single game, and may not be conclusive for all playerbases it must be taken at face value until more data is acquired.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Roleplaying is definitely one facet of the greater goal of giving players context within the game world so that they spend their time focusing on being part of it (of which the community is one part) rather than leveling through it. When a player's interactions with the world environment and other players in the game world has more meaning or relevance than just necessities for progression, stronger communities form within the player population.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I do not feel that is a fair assessment and would love to see data to the contrary. I do not see how roleplaying your own story within the game world brings deeper or more meaningful interaction than say being part of a raid team.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
I agree, and made no such claim to the contrary.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Fair enough. I seemingly read too much into your comment about "necessities for progression". I enjoy good debate, especially when taking the unpopular position but there is far too much "you shot my dog" feelings coming from the popular side so I tend to get defensive.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
You did not shoot my dog, but I have a bit of a bug when it comes to scientific accuracy. I think it is reasonable to extrapolate from a few games to many. But like most social studies this starts from the assumption you don't need a control group, coming from a background in biology I always question that.
Further I would not expect this to be done for every study. Such studies of groups could be compared to a control group for the year it was done. But sociologists see no reason to do this, they think they can iron out internal bias with methodology and personal veracity. That is very questionable in my eyes.
I wonder how many people in a control group would seen as needing a group as a crutch, have addictive behaviour and so on? While I do not discount such work, it always raises a question mark with me.
Because in biology its generally gathering data for a hypothesis based on some sort of change. This was nothing more than pure measurement of data. You do not need a control group when asking how many cherries there are in your cup of fruit cocktail.
You can find similar studies from both Yee and Bartle. Bartle still has his own personal blog, and arguably has the most hands on expertise. Yee has his Daedlus project, which is unfortunately no longer updated, but still has a ton of data still floating around if you want to nab it.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
No. A coping skill is not something that requires a pathology to utilize. Are you licensed and trained to diagnose these symptoms? If so, where did you get the background information disclosed in order to perform your assessment? In what way was their behavior maladaptive enough to warrant the Dx in the first place?
[mod edit]
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
If you are going to say people are displaying psychological symptoms, that is more than just the measurement of data. It is analysing, deciding certain behaviour indicates psychological issues and then coming up with a theory about why the group fosters such behaviour.
Most MMO's have a huge teenage contingent. Do the same study in a high school and see if they don't have dependencies, display addictions and so on. If roleplayers then showed more aberrant behaviour there could be something in it. But if you only look at the dataset you are studying you will find what you want to find.
Oh and if you want to do some roleplaying and are not concerned you are going to develop a psychological illness, Lotro really does stand out above the crowd.
I believe that data was pulled from the actual survey's given out. On that count I am not sure. I do trust data Koster blogs about because he tends to not link anything that he does not find viable.
Huge? What? Every cross section taken shows your largest demographic being in their 30's, with the next being in their 20's and those being teenagers actually being about equal to those who are in their 40's/50's. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1083-6101.2008.00428.x/full
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Once again I would question that. You do realise that many players are underage and do not fill in surveys telling everyone they are underage? Think back to your youth, would you allow an 18+ certificate to stop you playing the game all your friends were talking about? Occasionally in a game like PS2 they speak on the guild chat or local area chat, I usually advise them to keep stum as they are decent guys and I would not want them to be reported. Fact is I doubt they are a day over 13.
Also I think you like me were not a teenager when MMO's started. Would you as a teenager not make out you were older in chat and on forums? We all like to make out we are older than we really are at that age.
I agree the excepted wisdom is that players are mainly in their 20's to 30's, and I would say yes to that in games like Lotro. But WoW, PS2, Defiance, SWTOR, GW2 not so sure. Anything new, or with an IP kids know well or guns, well I would be playing them if I was 13.
Because its similar to the data produced by muds and the data being pulled from teenagers that will take surveys. The teenager data is especially interesting because of just how console heavy it is. Unfortunately that paper is behind a wall and I can't link to it.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
To give feedback on moderation, contact mikeb@mmorpg.com
Welcome to 'The Great Playstyle Wars 2.0: Why (insert players you don't like) Isn't What Publishers Want'.
Might as well do my part in the Wars 2.0 and make a case that roleplayers are far better for a game than achievement twinkers.
Let's say, for argument sake, roleplayers who self-identify as roleplayers comprise 5%. That's actually a lot, considering that EQ2 isn't designed to be roleplay friendly.
That's 1 in 20.
Now let us take hardcore raiders. They, too, comprise a small minority of the players in a typical MMO...more like 1%, if you listen to folks like Jeremy Gaffney. That's 1 in 100...perhaps even less.
And yet you find--in every MMO for the last 10 years or so--this hardcore twink demographic is given the lion's share of development time and resources...out of proportion to its actual size. It's expensive to cater to them, too. They get bored easily. They constantly want bigger, more complicated challenges to surmount. This is content that takes a lot of time and $$$ to develop. And once they launch the new content, it's scoured over in less than a week by the hardcore minority who then yawn, come here to MMORPG.com, complain that the game isn't developed enough, and leave for other games until the next thing comes out.
So you have, post-launch, most of a developer's time and energy invested in quest chains that nobody but a handful of players will ever do, simply to feed the twink-beast that is never really satisfied for long.
By comparison, roleplayers are some of the easiest and cheapest players to draw and maintain. All you need are chat bubbles, emotes, costumes and settings (houses, structures and such). The roleplayers will do the rest. And the great thing about giving roleplayers tools is that the other players--those who don't consider themselves roleplayers--use those tools as well.
40-65% of players neither achieve nor roleplay. They are solo PvE players. Now, answer me. Please do. What will serve these players better? Giving them roleplay tools like chat bubbles and emotes? Or giving them another uber-raid they'll never do, another ladder ranking they'll never care about, and another piece of the 13371yfe they'll never get? I bet you they'd like the things they can actually have, versus the things that they will soon find out--in short order--they'll never have.
But if you hear those who swear up and down that 'Roleplayers don't deserve accomodation', you'd swear that we were all just lining up looking to stick headsets in our ears and go on raids all night. Talk about serving a minority at the expense of a majority, man. We've been there and done that.
Am I saying that a game shouldn't do raids? No, they should be treated like any other minority interest and be given raids, just like every other minority interest out there (like roleplayers).
But to come here and demand that a game should deny the few, simple things that roleplayers want in favor of more combat content is just plain silly. Even if we assume roleplayers are 1 in 20 (5%), denying that 1 in 20 the basic stuff they need in favor of one evening of twink content for the 1 in 100 is just bad resource allocation.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
All the types of players who stay the course in a MMO have been binned as a design priority. Roleplayers, hardcore, PvP lovers, have all been put on the back burner. But that's now effecting raiders too, GW2 did not even bother to have raids.
Any of these player types is good for the community as they will stay longer than most. But roleplayers can really create something special, I will never forget my time in the Shire, with Hobbit players acting as if there was nothing dangerous out there. They would discuss the weather and how the potatoes were doing and wonder what a Dwarf like me was doing in the Shire.