Originally posted by ShakyMo Too instanced Too solo orientated And especially too easy
(there's the odd exception though like dfuw, ps2, aow)
Instanced - great ... let's get rid of the open world.
Solo friendly - great ... but keep it as an option.
Too easy .. that may be a problem. All MMOs should have difficulty settings like Diablo 3, so everyone can find the right level of challenge.
how can you have difficulty settings in a mmo? If you set it hard and I set it easy, how hard are the mobs when we both come across the same pack of them?
Only way they could do that is if everyone had their own phase, and then it wouldnt be a mmo, it would be a single player game with a chat box.
D3 is a bad example anyway, D3 has the same problem as MMOs, it forces you to play through it once on hand held noob mode before you can turn up the difficulty,
With instances or phasing, easily done. CoH did this. In a group the level of the mobs in an instance or phase is tuned to the leader.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Too instanced Too solo orientated And especially too easy
(there's the odd exception though like dfuw, ps2, aow)
Instanced - great ... let's get rid of the open world.
Solo friendly - great ... but keep it as an option.
Too easy .. that may be a problem. All MMOs should have difficulty settings like Diablo 3, so everyone can find the right level of challenge.
how can you have difficulty settings in a mmo? If you set it hard and I set it easy, how hard are the mobs when we both come across the same pack of them?
Only way they could do that is if everyone had their own phase, and then it wouldnt be a mmo, it would be a single player game with a chat box.
D3 is a bad example anyway, D3 has the same problem as MMOs, it forces you to play through it once on hand held noob mode before you can turn up the difficulty,
Simple. Most MMO content is already in instances & phases (hence your complaint). So it is easy to have difficulty setting in an instance.
Oh, the last point is not true. D3 does not force you to play noob mode. MP10 is available from level 1. In fact, i am still leveling a DH (only L20 now) on MP10, and it is not easy-mode (even with trink items).
Plus, try that on hard core mode and tell me if it is noob gaming. (I won't even go there myself, too challenging .. most attempts don't pass L15).
The current problem with MMo's is actually quiet simple. They don't captivate like they used to and there are so many reasons for this.
1. Character progression is linear. Or, you basically are locked into getting set skills along the way, and the crafting professions you need are decided for you based upon this character archetype.
2. Questing- Ok so not everyone likes grinding mobs, but let's admit it, most quests you don't read and just instant accept and go kill your x amount of monsters. The story telling of the mmos are no longer present due to this.
3- Solo? Hell no! - let's be serious, part of the excitement of old mmos was becoming as strong as you could, whether it was through being the lonewolf or with others. However, you no longer have the lonewolf option. The only time you go solo is questing levels, and rep grinding. My favorite game was Lineage2, in which it was hard, but a solo player could become stronger than an entire guild.
4- People complain because someone has more time- Deal with it. Mmos should be time consuming, this is to provide that infinite game play and mystery. You shouldnt breeze through to max level in 100 hours. A good MMO wont require you to be max level to experience the game. Aka Lineage 2 castle sieges.
5- Gear from raids- Gear should not only be from raids but also crafting, and yes crafting should be difficult and something one must sacrifice possible combat stats to achieve.
6- Has anyone noticed a similarity between these items. MMOS are simply losing their sense of world, losing their ability to create and alternate identity. In the real world people specialize. MMO's have lost that. Crafting systems destroyed it. The key to making someone enjoy an MMO is simple. Remove archetypes, remove crafting skills, Make crafting something one has to actually take as a "job" almost in MMO's make gear accessible through it that matches dungeon gear, or make dungeon gear have to be crafted by crafters using dungeon materials. Then crafters make as much money as dungeoneers and dungeoneers have to sell their mats to make money so crafters can get the gear also.
Mmos have just been misguided into losing their ability to make people feel they are in another world dude to things that I listed above. The solo wolf should be able to solo and stay with the pact if enough time is put in. Is it harder yes but still doable. The crafter should enjoy crafting and making things, and this should make it more of a job than grinding mobs. And make max level hard to achieve again ffs! at least 3 months solid game time or something please.
Hell watch Sword Art Online. An mmo should be like that, people specializing in a skill aka crafting gaathering raiding etc. a true player made community. make economies more player based. TAKE EVE'S EXAMPLE AND GIVE IT A FANTASY THEME!
Today's games just plain out blow donkey balls, there is no immersion nor is there any sense of awe, and it has nothing to do with your age. I began playing MMO's later in life and I can tell you I felt the magic if you will from the rise of the MMO, the current round of games just sucks.
The younger crowd would say otherwise and that your age is the problem, they are flat out wrong and are simply trying to hide the fact their generation is being fed garbage and in some weird sense of justice that cannot be in their own minds. In any case the games of today are horrible, one day something solid will hit the market and you shall see for yourself.
I fear the day another good MMO returns that immerses me. My start was Lineage 2. That game took a lot of my life haha. Hopefully I'm done with college before that mmo comes out!
Originally posted by BahamutKaiser I hear statements akin to this all the time, what I fail to see is how players ask for something they already have, yet aren't satisfied with, than wonder how a new game can do for you what the original game no longer does for you.
A good MMO should produce infinite gaming, so perhaps what needs to be looked at is how the game you most appreciated can recapture your interest, not how something new can conform to the old.
+1
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Phry I don't think its that games are really that sub par lately, just that the social side of MMO gaming is becoming increasingly marginalised, in trying to innovate the industry a lot of these games seem to overlook or ignore the entire social side of gameplay in favour of trying to do things in a 'new' way, its not that the improvements or changes in the game mechanics as such are a bad thing, its just that there is less and less reason for people to work together, even guilds within games now are increasingly just another 'chat channel' and less a group that works together or even takes part in activities together. Oddly enough WoW does still support this to a degree, hence the raiding guilds, pvp guilds, although to be honest, outside of Eve, and to a degree WoW, most games concentrate on bigging up the 'solo' experience, but if i had to look to the past for an example of a game that did the whole social thing well (even if the game mechanics themselves needed a lot of work) was SWG, and i think part of the reason why the CU and the NGE were such dismal failures, was also because the social dynamics of the game were badly affected by the changes that were made. I think the OP's problem, as such, if you can even call it a problem, because frankly i don't, is that with maturity comes an increased desire/enjoyment out of social interractions in the games in question, which in any game that lacks meaningful social interraction beyond a few 'chat channels' is going to seem increasingly boring, this is normal
That's the most accurate statement I've ever seen. All i've been looking for lately is a game in which social interactions aren't marginalized to the smallest factor.
FFXI kept me on for periods of time I will not confess to. These days it's almost looked down upon to make games that will keep you engrossed for many hours at a time. Lately it seems to be a selling point for MMO's to offer short term experiences for a wider audience.
I remember getting lost for hours playing with GI joe and transformers. They're not as fun anymore. Toys aren't made like they used to be....because..it must be the toys that changed.
The OP pretty much answered his own question...The problem is that games now aren't making worlds, they are making hubs and instances geared for the solo player and then providing entertainment for them with cutscenes and voice acting..... Just try to find a game world post WoW that wasnt all about this quest and that quest...There is zero exploration in almost any MMO the last 10 years and everything is pretty much just handed to the players on a platter.
Hopefully EQN will change this as its supposed to be the greatest sandbox ever as claimed by SOE. Also look into Wildstar and FFXIV:ARR both have interesting approaches to non combat roles like Wildstar's paths and FFXIV:ARR's crafting classes.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
I can play and have a lot of fun, and then quit playing for weeks, and not miss them at all. Years ago when I played Asheron's Call and later City of Heroes, I used to get lost for hours in the game worlds. There was something about those games that made me want to log in and play. Games like Neverwinter and GW2 are fun to play, but after the gaming session is over, I couldn't care less if I log back in tomorrow or next month or ever.
Of course, I have considered that the problem may be with me, and not the current MMOs, but who knows? All I know is that I'm constantly looking to the horizon for a great MMO, and all I've seen in the last few years are okay to decent MMOs. It's funny, but the industry has almost completely cured my old MMO addiction by churning out sub par games for years.
You simply just got to experience when MMO's were actually good is all...
They were actual worlds,as you state,to get lost in.Not some game with a hand pulling you along everywhere.Exploring was actually exploring,not running to some marker on the map telling you to go there.Which was a huge chunk of the content and appeal of MMO's back then.
There was also actual communities in those old MMO's,people actually knew each other.You saw familiar faces,whether you actually knew them or not.People actually became notorious for their actions,whether good or bad and their fame spread throughout the server..
Also,todays MMO's are mostly single player games posing as MMO's.You dont have to group for 90% of the content.Which basically defeats the purpose of an MMO really.
so yes,all you can really do is cherish those fond memories of times gone by,because I'd be very surprised if they ever come back..
I can play and have a lot of fun, and then quit playing for weeks, and not miss them at all. Years ago when I played Asheron's Call and later City of Heroes, I used to get lost for hours in the game worlds. There was something about those games that made me want to log in and play. Games like Neverwinter and GW2 are fun to play, but after the gaming session is over, I couldn't care less if I log back in tomorrow or next month or ever.
Of course, I have considered that the problem may be with me, and not the current MMOs, but who knows? All I know is that I'm constantly looking to the horizon for a great MMO, and all I've seen in the last few years are okay to decent MMOs. It's funny, but the industry has almost completely cured my old MMO addiction by churning out sub par games for years.
You simply just got to experience when MMO's were actually good is all...
They were actual worlds,as you state,to get lost in.Not some game with a hand pulling you along everywhere.Exploring was actually exploring,not running to some marker on the map telling you to go there.Which was a huge chunk of the content and appeal of MMO's back then.
There was also actual communities in those old MMO's,people actually knew each other.You saw familiar faces,whether you actually knew them or not.People actually became notorious for their actions,whether good or bad and their fame spread throughout the server..
Also,todays MMO's are mostly single player games posing as MMO's.You dont have to group for 90% of the content.Which basically defeats the purpose of an MMO really.
so yes,all you can really do is cherish those fond memories of times gone by,because I'd be very surprised if they ever come back..
Op I agree with you. I dont believe we have changed that much as individuals. Rocky, Starwars, and Pulp Fiction, they are all still great movies that I cant help watching if i catch them on tv. I loved FF7. I love Tenchu stealth assassins. I loved The Mark of Cree. I loved all the all the Tekkens up to Tekken Tag. Even though I played most of the games in my twenties If I went back and played them again I would still have fun, even though i am now in my thirties. They were great games. I loved my first mmorpg FFXI. I have been looking for another mmo to replace it for the past 4 years. Ive tried Wow, Swtor, Gw2 and others and stayed with most of them less than 3 months. I know the reason that they dont scratch my itch is because I can do almost everything I need to do in those games (other than raiding) alone. And if im going to play alone, what is the point of an mmo? In FFXI you could do most nothing alone after lvl 10. It forced you to make friends. Forced you to maintain a good reputation on your server. It forced you to help others in hope that they would help you in the future. And when you do things together with friends it builds good memories.
Moving from Texas to Indiana I had no friends my first year there and didnt really know anyone. After a year a guy at work introduced my to FFXI. Listening to his many stories of adventure in Vanadiel, I finally gave in and spent the 100 bucks to play it. (you had to buy the game with a hard drive for the ps2). I fell in love after a week of play. There was just something about being able to do something in a game with others watching you. Being able to team up in a party. Being able to save 5 other peoples figurative lives because you tanked a tough mob and then having them pat you on the back afterwards. I could actually go to work and laugh with my buddy about stuff we had done the night before together in game. I'll never forget meeting female players in game, talking for hours in chat, then having them giving me their numbers. Several of these girls turning out to be very hot. Girls from Los Vegas, Canada and even Amsterdam.
I made real friends, which made everything we did together in game special and meaningful. It caused me to always want to come back. Because of this, I stayed for 5 years.
In most mmos these days the only thing you do that consistently involves others is pvp and raiding. Then again most new mmos stear away from serious raiding. So we are left playing a game alone and every once in awhile we run into someone kinda nice or a complete asshole. And lately there seems to be much more of the later.
Many of us enjoy watching our favorite sports team on tv. But any real fan will tell you it doesnt compare to going to the live event with thousands of other fans around you.. We are social creatures who crave attention, comradery and fellowship. Until an mmo realizes this and capitalizes on it, it wont matter how good their game is, it just wont scratch that itch.
Comments
also you like PS2, which isn't any of those things, zero instancing, drops you in the deep end, needs teamwork.
With instances or phasing, easily done. CoH did this. In a group the level of the mobs in an instance or phase is tuned to the leader.
True .. you got me there. I was thinking about PvE when i wrote the post. Open world, for me, is only fun for big pvp battle.
BTW, the last point "needs teamwork" is not true. I never group or have any team work in PS2. I like to be a lone sniper headshoting enemies.
Simple. Most MMO content is already in instances & phases (hence your complaint). So it is easy to have difficulty setting in an instance.
Oh, the last point is not true. D3 does not force you to play noob mode. MP10 is available from level 1. In fact, i am still leveling a DH (only L20 now) on MP10, and it is not easy-mode (even with trink items).
Plus, try that on hard core mode and tell me if it is noob gaming. (I won't even go there myself, too challenging .. most attempts don't pass L15).
The current problem with MMo's is actually quiet simple. They don't captivate like they used to and there are so many reasons for this.
1. Character progression is linear. Or, you basically are locked into getting set skills along the way, and the crafting professions you need are decided for you based upon this character archetype.
2. Questing- Ok so not everyone likes grinding mobs, but let's admit it, most quests you don't read and just instant accept and go kill your x amount of monsters. The story telling of the mmos are no longer present due to this.
3- Solo? Hell no! - let's be serious, part of the excitement of old mmos was becoming as strong as you could, whether it was through being the lonewolf or with others. However, you no longer have the lonewolf option. The only time you go solo is questing levels, and rep grinding. My favorite game was Lineage2, in which it was hard, but a solo player could become stronger than an entire guild.
4- People complain because someone has more time- Deal with it. Mmos should be time consuming, this is to provide that infinite game play and mystery. You shouldnt breeze through to max level in 100 hours. A good MMO wont require you to be max level to experience the game. Aka Lineage 2 castle sieges.
5- Gear from raids- Gear should not only be from raids but also crafting, and yes crafting should be difficult and something one must sacrifice possible combat stats to achieve.
6- Has anyone noticed a similarity between these items. MMOS are simply losing their sense of world, losing their ability to create and alternate identity. In the real world people specialize. MMO's have lost that. Crafting systems destroyed it. The key to making someone enjoy an MMO is simple. Remove archetypes, remove crafting skills, Make crafting something one has to actually take as a "job" almost in MMO's make gear accessible through it that matches dungeon gear, or make dungeon gear have to be crafted by crafters using dungeon materials. Then crafters make as much money as dungeoneers and dungeoneers have to sell their mats to make money so crafters can get the gear also.
Mmos have just been misguided into losing their ability to make people feel they are in another world dude to things that I listed above. The solo wolf should be able to solo and stay with the pact if enough time is put in. Is it harder yes but still doable. The crafter should enjoy crafting and making things, and this should make it more of a job than grinding mobs. And make max level hard to achieve again ffs! at least 3 months solid game time or something please.
Hell watch Sword Art Online. An mmo should be like that, people specializing in a skill aka crafting gaathering raiding etc. a true player made community. make economies more player based. TAKE EVE'S EXAMPLE AND GIVE IT A FANTASY THEME!
Today's games just plain out blow donkey balls, there is no immersion nor is there any sense of awe, and it has nothing to do with your age. I began playing MMO's later in life and I can tell you I felt the magic if you will from the rise of the MMO, the current round of games just sucks.
The younger crowd would say otherwise and that your age is the problem, they are flat out wrong and are simply trying to hide the fact their generation is being fed garbage and in some weird sense of justice that cannot be in their own minds. In any case the games of today are horrible, one day something solid will hit the market and you shall see for yourself.
+1
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That's the most accurate statement I've ever seen. All i've been looking for lately is a game in which social interactions aren't marginalized to the smallest factor.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
You simply just got to experience when MMO's were actually good is all...
They were actual worlds,as you state,to get lost in.Not some game with a hand pulling you along everywhere.Exploring was actually exploring,not running to some marker on the map telling you to go there.Which was a huge chunk of the content and appeal of MMO's back then.
There was also actual communities in those old MMO's,people actually knew each other.You saw familiar faces,whether you actually knew them or not.People actually became notorious for their actions,whether good or bad and their fame spread throughout the server..
Also,todays MMO's are mostly single player games posing as MMO's.You dont have to group for 90% of the content.Which basically defeats the purpose of an MMO really.
so yes,all you can really do is cherish those fond memories of times gone by,because I'd be very surprised if they ever come back..
This genre has been CoD'ed
I agree completely.
Op I agree with you. I dont believe we have changed that much as individuals. Rocky, Starwars, and Pulp Fiction, they are all still great movies that I cant help watching if i catch them on tv. I loved FF7. I love Tenchu stealth assassins. I loved The Mark of Cree. I loved all the all the Tekkens up to Tekken Tag. Even though I played most of the games in my twenties If I went back and played them again I would still have fun, even though i am now in my thirties. They were great games. I loved my first mmorpg FFXI. I have been looking for another mmo to replace it for the past 4 years. Ive tried Wow, Swtor, Gw2 and others and stayed with most of them less than 3 months. I know the reason that they dont scratch my itch is because I can do almost everything I need to do in those games (other than raiding) alone. And if im going to play alone, what is the point of an mmo? In FFXI you could do most nothing alone after lvl 10. It forced you to make friends. Forced you to maintain a good reputation on your server. It forced you to help others in hope that they would help you in the future. And when you do things together with friends it builds good memories.
Moving from Texas to Indiana I had no friends my first year there and didnt really know anyone. After a year a guy at work introduced my to FFXI. Listening to his many stories of adventure in Vanadiel, I finally gave in and spent the 100 bucks to play it. (you had to buy the game with a hard drive for the ps2). I fell in love after a week of play. There was just something about being able to do something in a game with others watching you. Being able to team up in a party. Being able to save 5 other peoples figurative lives because you tanked a tough mob and then having them pat you on the back afterwards. I could actually go to work and laugh with my buddy about stuff we had done the night before together in game. I'll never forget meeting female players in game, talking for hours in chat, then having them giving me their numbers. Several of these girls turning out to be very hot. Girls from Los Vegas, Canada and even Amsterdam.
I made real friends, which made everything we did together in game special and meaningful. It caused me to always want to come back. Because of this, I stayed for 5 years.
In most mmos these days the only thing you do that consistently involves others is pvp and raiding. Then again most new mmos stear away from serious raiding. So we are left playing a game alone and every once in awhile we run into someone kinda nice or a complete asshole. And lately there seems to be much more of the later.
Many of us enjoy watching our favorite sports team on tv. But any real fan will tell you it doesnt compare to going to the live event with thousands of other fans around you.. We are social creatures who crave attention, comradery and fellowship. Until an mmo realizes this and capitalizes on it, it wont matter how good their game is, it just wont scratch that itch.