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fear, confusion, mind control and intoxication
eye_m
Member UncommonPosts: 3,317
Thought I would see what the mmorpg.com community thinks about these devices specifically in a PvP environment.
So "FEAR" has been used in multiple games, and I've heard people complain about it, and seen it get nerfed into uselessness. Typically your toon loses all control and runs away from the opponent for a few seconds. Do you think this is a good or bad mechanic, and what do you think a viable fear duration would be?
Confusion is another mechanic seem fairly often. Your toon does not respond properly, or targets friendlies, or maybe even uses the wrong skills. What do you think is the best mechanic for this type of effect?
Mind control is used less and probably more controversial, where the opponents takes control of your character for a limited amount of time. Is this a viable mechanic, or is it unfair?
Intoxication is most often self induced, but the effects of intoxication can be interesting and even comical. Do you think that they could apply the visual distortions to a persons display to imply stun, daze, or other physical conditions?
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
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Blizzard did a lot of "research" into this, which I bring up because the sheer size of that playerbase gives credit to the observations. Basically, they found that it's almost never fun to lose control of your character for more than a second or two. They also found it's never fun to have basic movement properties taken away or diminished, such as reducing movement speed. They've implemented several solutions over the years, from lowing the time you are affected by CC, to making sure everybody has access to an item or ability to break out of CC fairly regularly.
I generally agree with that, and SWtOR only reinforced that for me. PvP there amounts to walking around a lot more than I find interesting, not to mention getting knocked around over and over and effectively stunned while waiting for an animation to play out. It's a great example of how not to handle CC as far as I'm concerned.
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When i read the thread's title, iI thought you were talking about devices specifically used by the government.
shh! You'll break my cover!
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
The thing about interacting with CC is that there has to be interaction. If you just lose control of your toon it sucks, but if there are ways to prevent and combat CC than it becomes another obstacle just like damage.
A melee fighter may knock you back, but while he pushed you out of reach of your agenda, he has also lost his ability to reach you. A mage may slow you. But he may have immobilized himself and expended resources to prepare and use that ability. Counterplay can include defensive postures in order to prevent the effect, interruption so the effect can not be delivered, cleansing so it does not last and so on.
The other issue is that most MMOs design these dysfunctional combat systems that are designed for players to thrash NPCs, when they need to be designed in equal measure vs like opponents so kits don't involve juggling, 10 second slows, confusion and most commonly, taunting...
Combat needs to be designed around fighting like opponents, than give AI thoughtful and compelling use of those behaviors, this is the greatest hang up in PvP for MMOs.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
Most CC needs to be implemented with extreme moderation in a PVP environment.
The most enjoyable PVP games are the ones where you're in control 90% or more of the fight. You don't have to be in control of all of your character (spell interrupts, immobilization) but to lose all control is when things start to be less enjoyable.
Some of the best PVP games never involve stuns at all and the only time you lose control is during a respawn.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
In a game with manual targeting and action skill shots, these can be very disorienting.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
I agree. This is why sleep, petrification and mesmerize effects are rarely used in PvP games. Even fear is usually just few seconds long.
I would also like to point out that mind control effects are very likely to be overpowered: Not only are you taking a chosen opponent out for the duration of the mind control, but you can also, move him/her to a desired position, use his/her abilities to your advantage or just burn his/her resources. The opportunities come far and wide.
Way, way, way too powerful.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I agree with these two. Fear, Confusion, and Mind Control are not fun nor are they very skilled. They're easymode I win buttons. When the other player is not only unable to use their character, but is also taking damage and/or infliciting harm on friends, they lose at no fault of their own. Not because they got outplayed, either. If you're going to include CC it needs to be in moderation because if you are constantly CCed you still have very little control of your character. It also needs to be done skillfully to allow the player to get out of it or deal with it in some way, ensuring the more skilled player wins. CC should only be used as temporary control - that healer about to get off a massive heal on the guy you're about to finish off? OK, interrupt or stun or sleep him/her for a few seconds. That is proper use of CC in my opinion.
Because people want skill to be the focus, not realism. Good PvP is fair, balanced PvP.
And to expand upon my point I do think there are situations in games where things like Mind Control can work and still be balanced, but they mostly don't apply to MMORPGs where you are only in control of one character.
In RTS games, for example, mind control has been fairly fun over the years because when two armies meet only like 1/10th of the army gets mind controlled and there's always a way of adapting your unit mix to adapt to a MC-heavy opponent (spam Zerglings (SC) or footmen (War3) or a similar zergable unit.)
The MMORPG equivalent would be if characters frequently had 2+ pets who each have unique abilities and the pets are what can be temporarily mind controlled, or if it's an MMORPG more in the style of Atlantica where you actually have enough varied units so that having one mind-controlled or stunned doesn't actually completely shut you down.
In a straight 1v1 setting, the acceptable mind control equivalent is stealing one ability from the target for a while (which isn't exactly "mind control" at that point but simple spell-stealing. Still pretty fun to know you can steal one ability from an opponent though; kinda like a reverse version of Druids' Symbiosis in WOW, where you'd always steal the same thing from each class, and therefore be able to strategize around knowing exactly what you're taking -- and taking it at precisely the right moment.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
When your talking about realism, you have to factor in that most of this isn't real and your deciding what magic does and how it works.
Here's another scenario, x druid causes vines to ensnare a foe, the foe can not move more than a foot further and the vines last very long or indefinitely. In order to break it quickly, you have to attack the vine, with an axe, or some training in combating this occurance, you can strike it off in one blow.
Before spouting out nonsense about realism Torik, remember most of what is done in fantasy games is fantasy, and poor fanciful design is not realistic at all.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
The first situation still completely disables a player, completely controls them, and also creates a one-hit-kill situation. None of those things are really conducive to quality PVP.
The second situation is far better as it's a significant disable (you can't move beyond a certain range) but doesn't disable the victim's entire decision set.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Perhaps mind controlled units telegraph any damage taken to the mind of the controller, maybe the control is broken if you take any damage. All sorts of methods can be considered. Of course not using it at all is a possibility, but there are possibilities.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
I think there are lots of ways to make these types of CC viable and still fun.
A good example would be if they increased the time it takes to defeat an opponent while keeping the CC short time duration. So if it took 20 seconds to beat down a foe with no resistance, then a 3 second fear with 15 second cooldown isn't gamebreaking.
If a person uses a mindcontrol skill, they no longer have control over their own actions. They could use a chance roll to check for success and if so the opponent is controlled for a couple seconds, if it fails the opponent has no effect while the attacker is stunned for a couple seconds.
Stuns and KD's are a big part of all the mmo's I've played, and though I've raged at stunlock, I sure appreciate them for interrupts. I don't think stunlock should ever be a possibility however.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Hey look, somebody gets it!
Especially regarding the design process. I've tried explaining to people why you need to balance the game for PvP -before- designing PvE encounters, and it's an uphill battle.
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As for status effects that cause you to lose control of your character, they are generally fine IF resisting the effect is within the control of the player. They aren't fun when they completely remove you from the game because at that point you're helpless. As long as they don't leave you totally helpless, they can generally be really interesting and fun game elements.
I'm not a PVPer, but I like the concept. Even the title of the thread perked my interest.
One I would consider adding is hallucinations. Perception of reality is pivotal to comprehension. Imagine getting shot with a drug or affected by magic that distorts perception of reality. Instead of seeing teammates as individuals, twist them into bizarrely misshapen forms, have the environment change to reflect an altered reality.
I might be way off base with the reply, but it sounds like it could be "trippy".