Originally posted by Rinna I don't want Wildstar to be free to play. I want their business model to be exactly like WoW's. Barrier to entry, submission based, almost all perks and fun stuff are part of a monthly sub, other non-game breaking, cosmetic fluff in a cash shop.I hate F2P games and the AH crash going on right now in Neverwinter is a perfect example of why. 20 bucks a month... sound fair? Please give me back sub based gaming.
I agree. I concur. Keep out the riff raff.
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
Originally posted by WhiteLantern I'll pay for a box, sure. But I'm having a hard time these days justifying paying rent to play a game I've already purchased.
So i take it you found a way to NOT pay a monthly Fee to your Cable or Cell phone provider?
After all you paid once so you will not pay monthly right?
Fact is that you paid for the software but for it to work you do need the Company you bought it from to provide the service like the Cell phone or Cable company.
So they make you pay for it.
Honestly i like Monthly subs way more than the F2P models first of all the main focus of all F2P developers is how to make money with the Item Shop.
Sure they will get out new Content and they need to make sure that the players are entertained BUT so does a P2P MMo but the P2P MMO only needs to focus on making the game fun and worth the Money while the F2P ones mainly think about how to milk the players cause without paying players the whole thing doesn't work.
Thats also a point i dislike why would i (and i admit i am a sucker for the Shops) pay someone elses fun?
Cause fact is that without me and all the other paying for stuff from the Item shop all the leeches would not be able to play so for me its like i am giving away my money not only for the game i wanna play but also to make it possible for other people to play.
Its like charity for the needy but instead of supporting something that is worthy of supporting my money supports people who are either way to cheap to spend 15$ a month or just to broke in which case they shouldn't play but get a job anyway.
Maybe i am just an Ass its possible but i just don't like that everytime i spend money on a F2P MMo i support someone not worthy of support.
There's quite a big difference between what you're saying and what the other said... He's not continually paying a fee for the phone... He's paying a fee to use the wireless service.
Indeed and he is not paying monthly to be able to keep his copy of the game he is paying monthly to use the service that game can access like the cell phone can asses the net.....
Stop paying your Phone Bills and stop Paying monthly Fees for an MMO what will happen??
Right in both scenarios you will not loose the Hardware (Phone/Game) but the actually service you could access with it.
So no i am sorry but its not a big difference actually its no difference at all.
It's sad when all I see is the subscription model dying slowly around me, I remember first subbing to Asheron's Call for 9.95 when it came out, I thought I was insane for paying 10 dollars a month to play a video game. But I loved it, then when other games came out and charged 12.95, AC adjusted their prices to stay competitive. I didn't complain, I loved the game, I paid 12.95. Now, all I see are "F2P" this, "Cash shop" that. It breaks my heart, and it makes me sick a little on the inside that the industry has turned into a giant money grab scheme that we all keep falling for. It is us, the gamers, who have allowed this to happen. By playing these games, spending money in these cash shops, we've made sure the "F2P" era has started..and it is now the future. I hope everyone enjoys it, I haven't played a quality MMORPG in a long time.
I will never pay for a subscription to any game ever again in life. Not the way these developers and publishers move.
I would rather buy a game upfront, and purchase "DLC" content and cosmetic items as I desire.
All these games with these subscriptions or dishonest cash shops, fucking off game play to annoy players into buying currency... they're no good.
Developers should be selling content for their game, and making good cosmetic things WORTH peoples purchases. Anything else is uncivilized. Full stop.
The problem is that DLC can never be produced fast enough and it will require the game to be heavily instanced ontop of splitting the player base.
And no MMO can survive on cosmetic items not unless you make all base items look like brown robes and then you break one of the most important pillars in an RPG which is customization.
Games like LoL can do that since they are not RPG's, they don't add new content champions or skins do not split the player base.
We've seen what items work in MMO's and those items are breaking the game, GW2 is the best case scenario and it's still quite bad, and games like NWN are simply a scam I've seen many people spending over 200$ in it in a very short while simply because for the most part pretty much every realistically achievable item is locked behind a paywall even drops in instances.
This is exactly why I would never ever in life pay for a subscription for a game again... EVER. If a developer isn't capable of creating new content or cosmetic things enticing enough to purchase as a one off, why would I pay a fee per month?
Is this for real ? F2P models are bad for the exact reason you just wrote... The team is so focused on coming out with schemes to make money out of the cash shop, they don't have time to create real content. A steady flow of money every month from a subscription makes the investors happy while giving time to create real content...
Personally, I would like a sub for Wildstar, but as some have said, I would buy the initial box + sub and free expansions. The way WoW works with an initial box price + sub + expansion full price is a little extreme... For the cash shop, if it's one like WoW where it's not even in game and only offers mounts and pets, do what you want I don't care. Only as long as it's mounts, pets, and perhaps costumes ? With the housing system so integrated into the gameplay, leave housing items out of any cash hop there might be...
What I would like to pay for Wildstar in terms of sub : 13.99$ a month ( just to beat WoW lol ) going to 9.99$ per month if you sub for 12 months.
Originally posted by bestever
Originally posted by Shelvinarr It's sad when all I see is the subscription model dying slowly around me, I remember first subbing to Asheron's Call for 9.95 when it came out, I thought I was insane for paying 10 dollars a month to play a video game. But I loved it, then when other games came out and charged 12.95, AC adjusted their prices to stay competitive. I didn't complain, I loved the game, I paid 12.95. Now, all I see are "F2P" this, "Cash shop" that. It breaks my heart, and it makes me sick a little on the inside that the industry has turned into a giant money grab scheme that we all keep falling for. It is us, the gamers, who have allowed this to happen. By playing these games, spending money in these cash shops, we've made sure the "F2P" era has started..and it is now the future. I hope everyone enjoys it, I haven't played a quality MMORPG in a long time.
That's because any mmo is a cash grab. I mean really, you think 14.99$ a month isn't a cash grab, but spending 14.99$ a month in a cash shop is. Love the logic on this site just love it.
Because F2P games do not cost 14.99$ a month to play to their full extent, more like...149.99$ a month... (obvious hyperbole thank you... ) and I'm sorry, but paying for bag space and character slots is just so ridiculous...
Originally posted by Shelvinarr It's sad when all I see is the subscription model dying slowly around me, I remember first subbing to Asheron's Call for 9.95 when it came out, I thought I was insane for paying 10 dollars a month to play a video game. But I loved it, then when other games came out and charged 12.95, AC adjusted their prices to stay competitive. I didn't complain, I loved the game, I paid 12.95. Now, all I see are "F2P" this, "Cash shop" that. It breaks my heart, and it makes me sick a little on the inside that the industry has turned into a giant money grab scheme that we all keep falling for. It is us, the gamers, who have allowed this to happen. By playing these games, spending money in these cash shops, we've made sure the "F2P" era has started..and it is now the future. I hope everyone enjoys it, I haven't played a quality MMORPG in a long time.
That's because any mmo is a cash grab. I mean really, you think 14.99$ a month isn't a cash grab, but spending 14.99$ a month in a cash shop is. Love the logic on this site just love it.
No, it's not a cash grab for a subscription based model. Here's why, with the subscription you are paying for connection to the servers, updated content, and a premium game. You are paying to play. Simple as that. With F2P, and a cash shop. You are given X content, maybe some extra for free, maybe not. But the game itself will have draw backs, maybe if you spend 20 dollars you'll get 10 +50% exp pots, or maybe you can spend 15 dollars on a shiny piece of OMGWTFBBQ gear that's better than anything that "randomly drops". Also, F2P games don't seem to have the same heart and soul as a premium game. Take a look at some of the classics, Everquest, Asheron's Call, Ultima Online..what made them great? A cash shop? No. And I love your logic thinking that ANY mmo is a cash grab. Funny, because in that respect, all games are cash grabs. Actually, everything is a cash grab, even your family/school/job because it all costs. So, great logic there. But how about taking a step back and opening your eyes. Pay to play didn't have any "hidden" costs that you were strongly encouraged to indulge in, you paid a flat fee to enjoy ALL content.
Indeed and he is not paying monthly to be able to keep his copy of the game he is paying monthly to use the service that game can access like the cell phone can asses the net.....
Stop paying your Phone Bills and stop Paying monthly Fees for an MMO what will happen??
Right in both scenarios you will not loose the Hardware (Phone/Game) but the actually service you could access with it.
So no i am sorry but its not a big difference actually its no difference at all.
/facepalm I'm sorry you can't see the difference. If there was a way for phone companies to make money without charging a monthly based fee then you'd have something better to compare it to.... you're comparing a phone to a game lol.
The FACT is that a developer doesn't need to charge a subscription to be profitable. A truly great game will work with both models and neither and better or worse for the player, there is a difference for the developer however. Practice has shown that F2P with some kind of micro-transaction system is much more profitable than just a straight fee. Just because a game is F2P doesn't mean that it sucks or that it's a P2W, but this is where a lot of developers go wrong.
It doesn't have to be P2W to be successful and many of them think it does. What matters is the game at it's core... It needs to fulfill the needs of the player, needs to be entertaining, and needs to be fun. If it can do that, while at the same time be free, it will attract a ton of people... and what happens if you charge a small price for something a little exclusive and different? There's more people to buy it. You can have a thousand die-hard subscribers paying $15 a month or 2-3 thousand players playing for free who occasionally spend $5 here and there.
Look at a mobile game like Candy Crush that is free... how much money do you think those developers rack in? You think they'd make more if the game were $5? I highly doubt it.
Is this for real ? F2P models are bad for the exact reason you just wrote... The team is so focused on coming out with schemes to make money out of the cash shop, they don't have time to create real content. A steady flow of money every month from a subscription makes the investors happy while giving time to create real content...
Really? So a game like WoW is constantly pumping out those updates huh? Take a look at the amount of money you pay over the course of the 8-10 months between patches... Is the $120+ worth the single dungeon that you get?
Indeed and he is not paying monthly to be able to keep his copy of the game he is paying monthly to use the service that game can access like the cell phone can asses the net.....
Stop paying your Phone Bills and stop Paying monthly Fees for an MMO what will happen??
Right in both scenarios you will not loose the Hardware (Phone/Game) but the actually service you could access with it.
So no i am sorry but its not a big difference actually its no difference at all.
/facepalm I'm sorry you can't see the difference. If there was a way for phone companies to make money without charging a monthly based fee then you'd have something better to compare it to.... you're comparing a phone to a game lol.
You can buy time cards or pre paid phones, but a real plan with a phone company is a hell of a lot more convenient and offers more for your money.
Originally posted by Shelvinarr It's sad when all I see is the subscription model dying slowly around me, I remember first subbing to Asheron's Call for 9.95 when it came out, I thought I was insane for paying 10 dollars a month to play a video game. But I loved it, then when other games came out and charged 12.95, AC adjusted their prices to stay competitive. I didn't complain, I loved the game, I paid 12.95. Now, all I see are "F2P" this, "Cash shop" that. It breaks my heart, and it makes me sick a little on the inside that the industry has turned into a giant money grab scheme that we all keep falling for. It is us, the gamers, who have allowed this to happen. By playing these games, spending money in these cash shops, we've made sure the "F2P" era has started..and it is now the future. I hope everyone enjoys it, I haven't played a quality MMORPG in a long time.
That's because any mmo is a cash grab. I mean really, you think 14.99$ a month isn't a cash grab, but spending 14.99$ a month in a cash shop is. Love the logic on this site just love it.
Wow what we are saying is please we are adults some transparency would be nice, and just let me pay for a service that you provide. I don't need them to raise the fees. What I would like is a limitless game, the only limit being my skill at the game. When I need to go to a cash shop to buy things to play the game the way I want to play it, this angers me.
But I digress, I am interested in wildstar, and probably will play this game regardless of it's payment model. If it is F2P, or the model I prefer P2P, I will play this game. But me thinks if it goes P2P, there will be a lot of I will wait till it goes F2P, before I play that game posted on these forums.
Edit: OMGWTFBBQ gear, I want some of that, it sounds shiny.
Is this for real ? F2P models are bad for the exact reason you just wrote... The team is so focused on coming out with schemes to make money out of the cash shop, they don't have time to create real content. A steady flow of money every month from a subscription makes the investors happy while giving time to create real content...
Really? So a game like WoW is constantly pumping out those updates huh? Take a look at the amount of money you pay over the course of the 8-10 months between patches... Is the $120+ worth the single dungeon that you get?
5.3 is dropping this week with a new battleground, new scenarios (normal and heroic ones ) and a lot of new fun stuff, and 5.2 dropped in... March ? And 5.2 had a whole raid, that's about two months between major updates.. That's better than most ( if not any ) game I can think of...
I could give you Rift as an example, at the start they were pumping updates faster than the majority of guilds could clear the content. Then again, they are going F2P, so you'll probably use that to turn it against me ...
So, in conclusion, even if Rift is going F2P, I think ( my OPINION ) that sub based games are still superior in quality to F2P and I don't think anyone will deny this...
games are all going f2p because people pay more money for f2p then subs. sure less people pay, but they pay more over all. even when the game sells nothing that gives advantage like fluff costumes and vanity pets.
Indeed and he is not paying monthly to be able to keep his copy of the game he is paying monthly to use the service that game can access like the cell phone can asses the net.....
Stop paying your Phone Bills and stop Paying monthly Fees for an MMO what will happen??
Right in both scenarios you will not loose the Hardware (Phone/Game) but the actually service you could access with it.
So no i am sorry but its not a big difference actually its no difference at all.
/facepalm I'm sorry you can't see the difference. If there was a way for phone companies to make money without charging a monthly based fee then you'd have something better to compare it to.... you're comparing a phone to a game lol.
The FACT is that a developer doesn't need to charge a subscription to be profitable. A truly great game will work with both models and neither and better or worse for the player, there is a difference for the developer however. Practice has shown that F2P with some kind of micro-transaction system is much more profitable than just a straight fee. Just because a game is F2P doesn't mean that it sucks or that it's a P2W, but this is where a lot of developers go wrong.
It doesn't have to be P2W to be successful and many of them think it does. What matters is the game at it's core... It needs to fulfill the needs of the player, needs to be entertaining, and needs to be fun. If it can do that, while at the same time be free, it will attract a ton of people... and what happens if you charge a small price for something a little exclusive and different? There's more people to buy it. You can have a thousand die-hard subscribers paying $15 a month or 2-3 thousand players playing for free who occasionally spend $5 here and there.
Look at a mobile game like Candy Crush that is free... how much money do you think those developers rack in? You think they'd make more if the game were $5? I highly doubt it.
The problem is that you try very hard to see a difference where there is none.
Phone companys could give you the basic line but than make you pay in a cashshop for Texting or smiley faces maybe buy 1 day of extra download speed or a boost for connection quality busy Time need to get a call out right away np at all just buy the premium call pack...
They could do that but unlike in MMOs the actuall consumers would not go for that. Sure some might like the idea since they can save money but most would go berserk over that stuff.
You see its all the same you buy a product which enables you to use a service to do so you pay a monthly fee.
I agree with you that it does not need to be P2W tho but what all these games need are willing customers to pay for the FREE product so that its free for the rest and like i stated in my Original post if i pay i wanna pay for myself and not pay a charity for lazy ppl not willing to earn the money to pay a sub
The thing i do not understand bout the F2P crowd is that most say they will spend some money in the Cashshop if they like the game but at the same time spending money on a P2P game is somehow bad.
I will admit that current P2P models are not perfect i would like them to make you pay by the minute (for example) rather than a monthly basecharge but whatever P2P model it is at lest i pay for my fun and my fun alone.
pay to win aka free to play is causing the destruction of mmorpg gaming. You have devs who dont give a shit about their product and you have players who dont give a shit about the product. Makes for an overall shit experience.
Originally posted by Xandramas pay to win aka free to play is causing the destruction of mmorpg gaming. You have devs who dont give a shit about their product and you have players who dont give a shit about the product. Makes for an overall shit experience.
I think your reasoning is shit because f2p != p2w.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
I think there will be an epic game on the horizon that will be Sub based, but this game isn't it. Sorry people, but this game looks so damn generic and clone based that if they charged a sub, no one would play.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for paying subs (When the game deserves it). I do want to play Wildstar, but if they ask for a sub, i'm not going to touch it. The game doesn't command that kind of attention.
I think there will be an epic game on the horizon that will be Sub based, but this game isn't it. Sorry people, but this game looks so damn generic and clone based that if they charged a sub, no one would play.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for paying subs (When the game deserves it). I do want to play Wildstar, but if they ask for a sub, i'm not going to touch it. The game doesn't command that kind of attention.
Couldn't disagree more. Watch a few videos and interviews. It's hardly a clone.
Unless you think every game with cartoony graphics is a WoW ripoff.
I don't want Wildstar to be free to play. I want their business model to be exactly like WoW's. Barrier to entry, submission based, almost all perks and fun stuff are part of a monthly sub, other non-game breaking, cosmetic fluff in a cash shop.
I hate F2P games and the AH crash going on right now in Neverwinter is a perfect example of why. 20 bucks a month... sound fair? Please give me back sub based gaming.
I don't want Wildstar to be free to play. I want their business model to be exactly like WoW's. Barrier to entry, submission based, almost all perks and fun stuff are part of a monthly sub, other non-game breaking, cosmetic fluff in a cash shop.
I hate F2P games and the AH crash going on right now in Neverwinter is a perfect example of why. 20 bucks a month... sound fair? Please give me back sub based gaming.
I don't want Wildstar to be free to play. I want their business model to be exactly like WoW's. Barrier to entry, submission based, almost all perks and fun stuff are part of a monthly sub, other non-game breaking, cosmetic fluff in a cash shop.
I hate F2P games and the AH crash going on right now in Neverwinter is a perfect example of why. 20 bucks a month... sound fair? Please give me back sub based gaming.
Those "features" are what raiders expect...what people who are obsessed with the carrot-style dungeon crawl expect.., but they are by no means a requirement or standard.
So stop trying to imprint your "MMO standards" on to other games and call them failures or bad based on them not meeting what you personally expect. There are games that are making big changes like GW2 and Wildstar because many of the WoW clones that stuck to those 'standards' have nearly bellied up because of being basically the same thing with a different skin.
GW2 isn't WoW; Wildstar isn't WoW. Don't like it? There's the door. However, Wildstar is similar to GW2 with it's action combat, dynamic environmental events; it has limited abilities on bar, but still gives players enough options during combat. But that's where the similarities end as Wildstar goes for a more humorous approach, includes housing, keeps the Trinity trope and sticks to a Sci-Fi theme instead of Fantasy.
There are standards that people expect, and "not just raiders". My point is GW2 is a bad example of a B2P system because the game launched without most features people expect in modern day MMOs. Thankfully WildStar has all of those features, based on interviews and will not launch an incomplete game.
We as consumers need to stop making excuses for games that are launched with sub par content and features because it only hurts the industry. People expect dungeon finders, they expect to queue for sPvP anywhere in the world, they except they can customize their UI. People shouldn't be going to third party sites for these services.
I don't really care for such things and I imagine a large portion of people who enjoy GW2 right now feel the same.
I want a more dynamic world - Check
I want my DPS class be valued as much as the "tank" or "healer" - Check
I want a world that I can explore, and not render "low level areas" obsolete - Check
I want a more flexible way of progression - Check
I want a game that doesn't bar me out of a zone, unless I grind till my gear is worthy of it - Check
Fortunately, the things I really cared about are serviced in their vanilla release. And they keep improving things. Color me satisfied.
Indeed and he is not paying monthly to be able to keep his copy of the game he is paying monthly to use the service that game can access like the cell phone can asses the net.....
Stop paying your Phone Bills and stop Paying monthly Fees for an MMO what will happen??
Right in both scenarios you will not loose the Hardware (Phone/Game) but the actually service you could access with it.
So no i am sorry but its not a big difference actually its no difference at all.
/facepalm I'm sorry you can't see the difference. If there was a way for phone companies to make money without charging a monthly based fee then you'd have something better to compare it to.... you're comparing a phone to a game lol.
The FACT is that a developer doesn't need to charge a subscription to be profitable. A truly great game will work with both models and neither and better or worse for the player, there is a difference for the developer however. Practice has shown that F2P with some kind of micro-transaction system is much more profitable than just a straight fee. Just because a game is F2P doesn't mean that it sucks or that it's a P2W, but this is where a lot of developers go wrong.
It doesn't have to be P2W to be successful and many of them think it does. What matters is the game at it's core... It needs to fulfill the needs of the player, needs to be entertaining, and needs to be fun. If it can do that, while at the same time be free, it will attract a ton of people... and what happens if you charge a small price for something a little exclusive and different? There's more people to buy it. You can have a thousand die-hard subscribers paying $15 a month or 2-3 thousand players playing for free who occasionally spend $5 here and there.
Look at a mobile game like Candy Crush that is free... how much money do you think those developers rack in? You think they'd make more if the game were $5? I highly doubt it.
He's comparing a service to a service. You, however, are comparing an MMO to a mobile game.
I don't want Wildstar to be free to play. I want their business model to be exactly like WoW's. Barrier to entry, submission based, almost all perks and fun stuff are part of a monthly sub, other non-game breaking, cosmetic fluff in a cash shop.
I hate F2P games and the AH crash going on right now in Neverwinter is a perfect example of why. 20 bucks a month... sound fair? Please give me back sub based gaming.
+1
Here's the thing. I never think of F2P games as free. I always expect to pay around 2-3 months subscription costs for a couple of month's gameplay because I know that while the game might be free2play, it's not free2dev. I know they're going to get me for some money somehow, but I'm okay with that, because devs/publishers gotta make a profit.
So you could say that unlike many others, I actually expect and budget for free2play cash shop costs. And in most games, publishers don't take advantage of me too greatly (although, can I say: FUCK LOCKBOXES in any and all cash shop games?).
But I can't say the same for Neverwinter. It is a great example of what not to do. For a start, everything in the cash shop is way too expensive, even for cash shops. 40 dollars for a mount? 20 for a companion? 10 bucks for a bag? 6 bucks for 16 bank slots? Respec, 6 bucks. Rename pet, 6 bucks. etc. etc. They hit you hard there, but then you also have the constant need for Astral Diamonds for everything.. And when you read Astral Diamonds, you might as well think cash, because you'll rarely farm enough of them in a day to make ANYTHING affordable without using your MasterCard. Unless you dedicate your entire day/week to nothing but AD farming, and even then it's slow.
Everybody knows how F2P works, but you can not escape the cash grab in Neverwinter. Not if you want to do anything other than kill stuff. Most newbs in the game don't realize it, but the longer you play, the worse the cash grab becomes. Whether it's enchantments, tradeskills, socketing gear, simple day-to-day tasks and needs. Many necessities you can only buy with diamonds which are virtually the same as cold-hard cash.
I was a key-seller on Dragon, and despite beating the system, seeing some of the biggest profits on the AH and actually making more ZEN than I spent on keys, I can tell you Neverwinter IS the nightmare scenario that F2P haters warn about.
I left the game because of it. PerfectWorld's rank greed killed my goodwill, despite my belief that developer's need to see something for their efforts.
If Wildstar does decide to go F2P it should stay MILES away from this PerfectWorld's model. Stay closer to home and look at GW2 for inspiration.
Or be throroughly awesome and give us good subscription (and maybe Founders!) options.
Comments
I agree. I concur. Keep out the riff raff.
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
Indeed and he is not paying monthly to be able to keep his copy of the game he is paying monthly to use the service that game can access like the cell phone can asses the net.....
Stop paying your Phone Bills and stop Paying monthly Fees for an MMO what will happen??
Right in both scenarios you will not loose the Hardware (Phone/Game) but the actually service you could access with it.
So no i am sorry but its not a big difference actually its no difference at all.
Is this for real ? F2P models are bad for the exact reason you just wrote... The team is so focused on coming out with schemes to make money out of the cash shop, they don't have time to create real content. A steady flow of money every month from a subscription makes the investors happy while giving time to create real content...
Personally, I would like a sub for Wildstar, but as some have said, I would buy the initial box + sub and free expansions. The way WoW works with an initial box price + sub + expansion full price is a little extreme... For the cash shop, if it's one like WoW where it's not even in game and only offers mounts and pets, do what you want I don't care. Only as long as it's mounts, pets, and perhaps costumes ? With the housing system so integrated into the gameplay, leave housing items out of any cash hop there might be...
What I would like to pay for Wildstar in terms of sub : 13.99$ a month ( just to beat WoW lol ) going to 9.99$ per month if you sub for 12 months.
Because F2P games do not cost 14.99$ a month to play to their full extent, more like...149.99$ a month... (obvious hyperbole thank you... ) and I'm sorry, but paying for bag space and character slots is just so ridiculous...
No, it's not a cash grab for a subscription based model. Here's why, with the subscription you are paying for connection to the servers, updated content, and a premium game. You are paying to play. Simple as that. With F2P, and a cash shop. You are given X content, maybe some extra for free, maybe not. But the game itself will have draw backs, maybe if you spend 20 dollars you'll get 10 +50% exp pots, or maybe you can spend 15 dollars on a shiny piece of OMGWTFBBQ gear that's better than anything that "randomly drops". Also, F2P games don't seem to have the same heart and soul as a premium game. Take a look at some of the classics, Everquest, Asheron's Call, Ultima Online..what made them great? A cash shop? No. And I love your logic thinking that ANY mmo is a cash grab. Funny, because in that respect, all games are cash grabs. Actually, everything is a cash grab, even your family/school/job because it all costs. So, great logic there. But how about taking a step back and opening your eyes. Pay to play didn't have any "hidden" costs that you were strongly encouraged to indulge in, you paid a flat fee to enjoy ALL content.
/facepalm I'm sorry you can't see the difference. If there was a way for phone companies to make money without charging a monthly based fee then you'd have something better to compare it to.... you're comparing a phone to a game lol.
The FACT is that a developer doesn't need to charge a subscription to be profitable. A truly great game will work with both models and neither and better or worse for the player, there is a difference for the developer however. Practice has shown that F2P with some kind of micro-transaction system is much more profitable than just a straight fee. Just because a game is F2P doesn't mean that it sucks or that it's a P2W, but this is where a lot of developers go wrong.
It doesn't have to be P2W to be successful and many of them think it does. What matters is the game at it's core... It needs to fulfill the needs of the player, needs to be entertaining, and needs to be fun. If it can do that, while at the same time be free, it will attract a ton of people... and what happens if you charge a small price for something a little exclusive and different? There's more people to buy it. You can have a thousand die-hard subscribers paying $15 a month or 2-3 thousand players playing for free who occasionally spend $5 here and there.
Look at a mobile game like Candy Crush that is free... how much money do you think those developers rack in? You think they'd make more if the game were $5? I highly doubt it.
Really? So a game like WoW is constantly pumping out those updates huh? Take a look at the amount of money you pay over the course of the 8-10 months between patches... Is the $120+ worth the single dungeon that you get?
You can buy time cards or pre paid phones, but a real plan with a phone company is a hell of a lot more convenient and offers more for your money.
Phone Plan = subscription
Pre paid cards/phones = F2P
/mindblown
Wow what we are saying is please we are adults some transparency would be nice, and just let me pay for a service that you provide. I don't need them to raise the fees. What I would like is a limitless game, the only limit being my skill at the game. When I need to go to a cash shop to buy things to play the game the way I want to play it, this angers me.
But I digress, I am interested in wildstar, and probably will play this game regardless of it's payment model. If it is F2P, or the model I prefer P2P, I will play this game. But me thinks if it goes P2P, there will be a lot of I will wait till it goes F2P, before I play that game posted on these forums.
Edit: OMGWTFBBQ gear, I want some of that, it sounds shiny.
5.3 is dropping this week with a new battleground, new scenarios (normal and heroic ones ) and a lot of new fun stuff, and 5.2 dropped in... March ? And 5.2 had a whole raid, that's about two months between major updates.. That's better than most ( if not any ) game I can think of...
I could give you Rift as an example, at the start they were pumping updates faster than the majority of guilds could clear the content. Then again, they are going F2P, so you'll probably use that to turn it against me ...
So, in conclusion, even if Rift is going F2P, I think ( my OPINION ) that sub based games are still superior in quality to F2P and I don't think anyone will deny this...
games are all going f2p because people pay more money for f2p then subs. sure less people pay, but they pay more over all. even when the game sells nothing that gives advantage like fluff costumes and vanity pets.
so ya, f2p is here too stay, laws of economics.
The problem is that you try very hard to see a difference where there is none.
Phone companys could give you the basic line but than make you pay in a cashshop for Texting or smiley faces maybe buy 1 day of extra download speed or a boost for connection quality busy Time need to get a call out right away np at all just buy the premium call pack...
They could do that but unlike in MMOs the actuall consumers would not go for that. Sure some might like the idea since they can save money but most would go berserk over that stuff.
You see its all the same you buy a product which enables you to use a service to do so you pay a monthly fee.
I agree with you that it does not need to be P2W tho but what all these games need are willing customers to pay for the FREE product so that its free for the rest and like i stated in my Original post if i pay i wanna pay for myself and not pay a charity for lazy ppl not willing to earn the money to pay a sub
The thing i do not understand bout the F2P crowd is that most say they will spend some money in the Cashshop if they like the game but at the same time spending money on a P2P game is somehow bad.
I will admit that current P2P models are not perfect i would like them to make you pay by the minute (for example) rather than a monthly basecharge but whatever P2P model it is at lest i pay for my fun and my fun alone.
I think your reasoning is shit because f2p != p2w.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
I think there will be an epic game on the horizon that will be Sub based, but this game isn't it. Sorry people, but this game looks so damn generic and clone based that if they charged a sub, no one would play.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for paying subs (When the game deserves it). I do want to play Wildstar, but if they ask for a sub, i'm not going to touch it. The game doesn't command that kind of attention.
Couldn't disagree more. Watch a few videos and interviews. It's hardly a clone.
Unless you think every game with cartoony graphics is a WoW ripoff.
+1
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I don't really care for such things and I imagine a large portion of people who enjoy GW2 right now feel the same.
I want a more dynamic world - Check
I want my DPS class be valued as much as the "tank" or "healer" - Check
I want a world that I can explore, and not render "low level areas" obsolete - Check
I want a more flexible way of progression - Check
I want a game that doesn't bar me out of a zone, unless I grind till my gear is worthy of it - Check
Fortunately, the things I really cared about are serviced in their vanilla release. And they keep improving things. Color me satisfied.
He's comparing a service to a service. You, however, are comparing an MMO to a mobile game.
F2P = Good if no end game
P2W = not worth installing
P2P= Good if it has more then enough content for end game. End game is what its all about with P2P
I'm going to have to pass if it's a sub game. i don't feel like renting something I've already paid for.
I'll buy a box and perhaps even spend money in a cosmetics + convenience only cash shop, but I will not hand them money every month for nothing.
Here's the thing. I never think of F2P games as free. I always expect to pay around 2-3 months subscription costs for a couple of month's gameplay because I know that while the game might be free2play, it's not free2dev. I know they're going to get me for some money somehow, but I'm okay with that, because devs/publishers gotta make a profit.
So you could say that unlike many others, I actually expect and budget for free2play cash shop costs. And in most games, publishers don't take advantage of me too greatly (although, can I say: FUCK LOCKBOXES in any and all cash shop games?).
But I can't say the same for Neverwinter. It is a great example of what not to do. For a start, everything in the cash shop is way too expensive, even for cash shops. 40 dollars for a mount? 20 for a companion? 10 bucks for a bag? 6 bucks for 16 bank slots? Respec, 6 bucks. Rename pet, 6 bucks. etc. etc. They hit you hard there, but then you also have the constant need for Astral Diamonds for everything.. And when you read Astral Diamonds, you might as well think cash, because you'll rarely farm enough of them in a day to make ANYTHING affordable without using your MasterCard. Unless you dedicate your entire day/week to nothing but AD farming, and even then it's slow.
Everybody knows how F2P works, but you can not escape the cash grab in Neverwinter. Not if you want to do anything other than kill stuff. Most newbs in the game don't realize it, but the longer you play, the worse the cash grab becomes. Whether it's enchantments, tradeskills, socketing gear, simple day-to-day tasks and needs. Many necessities you can only buy with diamonds which are virtually the same as cold-hard cash.
I was a key-seller on Dragon, and despite beating the system, seeing some of the biggest profits on the AH and actually making more ZEN than I spent on keys, I can tell you Neverwinter IS the nightmare scenario that F2P haters warn about.
I left the game because of it. PerfectWorld's rank greed killed my goodwill, despite my belief that developer's need to see something for their efforts.
If Wildstar does decide to go F2P it should stay MILES away from this PerfectWorld's model. Stay closer to home and look at GW2 for inspiration.
Or be throroughly awesome and give us good subscription (and maybe Founders!) options.