"A couple of our competitors have found out that through very, very expensive lessons--one of our competitors just recently announced they're restarting an MMO project in the US," Zelnick said. "We look at it and say 'How many MMOs have ever been successful in the US?' Two. World of Warcraft and EverQuest. That's kind of a bad slugging percentage."
The fool from Take-Two Interactive has no clue what hes talking about if he thinks there was only 2 successful MMO's.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Originally posted by Normandy7 I just want to add this as well. Just look at all the non mmos we have today like Halo, Call of Duty, Guild Wars, and basically all online rpgs and shooters, they outsell just about every mmo. Why do you think that is ? Part of the reason is that here in the U.S you don't have to spend multiple hours in a day to get satisfaction from your gaming time. You could spend an hour in a mmo and only get so far and feel disappointed because you hardly made a dent in your character's progress. It is just a different culture here in the U.S compared to everywhere else and now since the economy is pretty much non-existant here in the U.S mmos will suffer even more losses .
Complete and utter poppycock. I may as well make the assertion that Video Games don't work at all in any market, just because a popular movie sold more tickets than a specific game sold. Or that RTS games will never be successful because Pokémon sold millions on the gameboy. Making broad statements such as saying that a game from different genres are the reasons for the arguable bad selling of another genre is just pure rhetoric without any substantial evidence to back up the claim whatsoever. Who comes up with these allegations?
MMOs used to be a niche market with very few sales, and only in the last ten years did it turn into it's own genre. Before then it was hurting to even find a single investor and many games were closed. The game Trials of Ascension was one such game that couldn't get investors back in 2001 or whatever and not they're starting to get what they need in 2013 simply because of the interest in both the genre and it's potential. In fact, it's becoming so that technology is advancing so much that we may soon see games call themselves "online" when they have the same capacity to do things as MMOs did ten years ago.
There have been many successes in the genre, and not just "WoW" and "Everquest". It's just so hard to believe people would write things such as the OP's linked article for anything else other than trying and get recognition for poorly thought out ideas that some how form in their minds. Is this how we're marketing ourselves these days? Perhaps I should talk about Twilight and 50 shades of Gray and compare them to video gaming and see how well that turns out. In my opinion, it would make more sense than what was in that article (sarcasm?). Of course, this is to source of the information and not the writer.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
(1) Why does everyone forget that Ultima Online was what made MMO's today, what they are? It was there BEFORE EQ, and was just as popular in its day.
(2) So long as people support F2P models because they don't want to fork out the necessary cash for a great game, we'll keep seeing a spew of unsuccessful games. I'm not even sure why there is this craze for anime/F2p right now. It's the worst immersion possible.
It's the nature of MMO's. They aren't block busters that you switch out every Friday night, you play them for decades, you don't move on and the Industry is growing faster than new blood to the industry.
If games want an emblem to follow, they need to look to EVE Online, not World of Warcraft. Not make a space ship PvP game but make a game that can make money on half a million very loyal followers. 500K x $15 is $9,000,000 a year. It aint rocket surgery. If that's your budget, that's your budget. No, you won't be the next Zuckerberg but you will have a good paying job until you retire.
America is notorious for the "Rapid rise and downfall" in every media.. We have one hit wonders that seem to come from the strangest places and people are always searching for the next best thing.
I almost always see instant success as a bad thing in terms of longevity for anything entertainment wise.. Things that build up from humble beginnings usually stay healthy longer..
Companies seem to be more concerned with chasing that short term "Gangnam style" dollar, instead of reaching for that 'Spongebob" dollar (which reportedly was almost canceled after its first season not being up to rating standards, turned into one of the most famous cartoons in history)
I think WoW is the biggest failure in the history of MMOS. Financial success, yes. Everything else it lowered the bar. Graphically 5 years behind when it came out. Crafting reduced to clicking one button and waiting. Combat reduced to spamming a few buttons. Endless Quest hub grind.
They probably did with Titan what they always do: copy and steal from other IP's and sell it as their own. Now they realized that the MMO Market is going belly up (some might say it already is) and they need an excuse to overhaul the plagiarized crap they produced.
Blizzard could not find an original idea if it crawled up their ass.
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
Just in case you guys don't know there are other parts of the world than the US and Asia.
I would say the same for Europe, MMO's do not have the staying power they seem to in the East. Without knowing what the revenues are like and so on, it is hard to determine success. The only Asian MMO I know at all is FF and I noted that even after an awful launch they keep updating and pumping money into it. That shows a confidence I am not sure you would see outside of those countries. Over here we downsize the staff and pull the money plug.
...FF and I noted that even after an awful launch they keep updating and pumping money into it. That shows a confidence I am not sure you would see outside of those countries. Over here we downsize the staff and pull the money plug.
Not all corporations think only in the short term, nor the long. CCP showed some pretty long-term faith in EVE, I'd say. Hell, any title that survives five years is a rare and beautiful flower to be nurtured.
What are you trying to say? Sequels rarely do really well in mmospace historically, yet fans show just stupid (imo) levels of brand loyalty as far as fannish company faith?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think WoW is the biggest failure in the history of MMOS. Financial success, yes. Everything else it lowered the bar. Graphically 5 years behind when it came out. Crafting reduced to clicking one button and waiting. Combat reduced to spamming a few buttons. Endless Quest hub grind.
They probably did with Titan what they always do: copy and steal from other IP's and sell it as their own. Now they realized that the MMO Market is going belly up (some might say it already is) and they need an excuse to overhaul the plagiarized crap they produced.
Blizzard could not find an original idea if it crawled up their ass.
if the game wasnt a success, it wouldnt have been a financial success, can't have one without the other, okay now i appreciate you don't like the game, but you are wrong, what WoW has done has upped the bar for success, not just in terms of financial success, but also in quality, part of the reason why so many games are failures, is because they didnt measure up to WoW, even though they tried to copy it, hate the game all you want, but it doesnt change the facts.
Just cause they are not chart topping each other every time a MMO is made, doesn't mean they aren't successful.
For a colossal let down that it was, I think even SWTOR made its money back and still has a player base and still putting out updates.
EVE same deal.
Secret World has a loyal fanbase and still chugging along.
Guild Wars 2 is doing just fine.
Those are just off the top of my head.
People are too obsessed with the massive numbers WoW reached, which will likely never happen again.
MMO's are doing just fine in the US.
Also someone mentioned the quality of eastern MMOs and I will say that up until recently were kinda all the same but they are breaking that mold now and moving in new directions.
I think WoW is the biggest failure in the history of MMOS. Financial success, yes. Everything else it lowered the bar. Graphically 5 years behind when it came out. Crafting reduced to clicking one button and waiting. Combat reduced to spamming a few buttons. Endless Quest hub grind.
They probably did with Titan what they always do: copy and steal from other IP's and sell it as their own. Now they realized that the MMO Market is going belly up (some might say it already is) and they need an excuse to overhaul the plagiarized crap they produced.
Blizzard could not find an original idea if it crawled up their ass.
if the game wasnt a success, it wouldnt have been a financial success, can't have one without the other, okay now i appreciate you don't like the game, but you are wrong, what WoW has done has upped the bar for success, not just in terms of financial success, but also in quality, part of the reason why so many games are failures, is because they didnt measure up to WoW, even though they tried to copy it, hate the game all you want, but it doesnt change the facts.
Facts (green) and Opinions (yellow).
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Where are the news? They only care about instant gratification. MMOs now are like counter strike or call of duty multiplayer: go to an instanced arena, have fun, leave, queue, go to another instanced arena.
Ok I see your point but that is really nitpicking because when you look at the entire genre as a whole only WoW and Everquest really had major success.
You're aware there are more games that clearly outsold EQ, right?
Which brings us back around to Kyleran's question. You're applying some standard other than subs or dollars, so what is it?
Not 3D mmo's, EQ was the first 3D mmo and up until WOW EQ had the highest sub rate. I will say that to me their have been other mmo's that have done well.
If you are talking dollars then it's WOW, if you are talking longest running 3d mmo then you are talking EQ. If you are talking player numbers in the west then you are talking WOW.
If i was a developer i would head over to korea or china to make my mmo, you can see that the up and coming Asian mmo's have far more features than western mmo's being implemented
"A couple of our competitors have found out that through very, very expensive lessons--one of our competitors just recently announced they're restarting an MMO project in the US," Zelnick said. "We look at it and say 'How many MMOs have ever been successful in the US?' Two. World of Warcraft and EverQuest. That's kind of a bad slugging percentage."
I think quite a few more MMOs have worked fine in the US.
DAOC, UO, EQ2, Anarchy Online, Aherons cal, SWG.. just a few i can think of off the top of my head..
Now the issue started when wow was released, it got really popular fast.. so other companies wanted some of the pie and for some reason decided it was a good idea to clone wow..
The problem is like any copy of a product they are usually inferior or people just like the original better.. I mean would most people want to wear a pair of knock off Nike shoes with a backwards e in the name.. not not really..
For some reason AAA devs still have not realized that they cant just copy wow because people already play and like wow// a dodgy copy is not going to make them leave that game.
It looks like a lot of indie devs understand that and also realize that the amount of players wow has is kind of a 1 off.. most good MMOS before and after wow have maybe had 200k-500k max stable subs.. so indie devs are developnig their games towards those kind of numbers instead of the millions that wow has, plus they are making different types of MMORPGs.. just look at the recent ones that have got funded on kickstarter ... SOE have also noticed this by announcing EQ:Next will be a sandbox game..
Hopefully we will soon start to see the end of wow clones..
Ok I see your point but that is really nitpicking because when you look at the entire genre as a whole only WoW and Everquest really had major success.
You're aware there are more games that clearly outsold EQ, right?
Which brings us back around to Kyleran's question. You're applying some standard other than subs or dollars, so what is it?
Not 3D mmo's, EQ was the first 3D mmo and up until WOW EQ had the highest sub rate. I will say that to me their have been other mmo's that have done well.
If you are talking dollars then it's WOW, if you are talking longest running 3d mmo then you are talking EQ. If you are talking player numbers in the west then you are talking WOW.
If i was a developer i would head over to korea or china to make my mmo, you can see that the up and coming Asian mmo's have far more features than western mmo's being implemented
See how many qualifications you need to make to force that original statement to be even partially true?
3D--can't allow UO to be considered, as it's older. Western-can't allow the Lineage games to be considered, or you lose on subs. Up until WoW--obvious reasons, we can't let Blizzard or CCP or EA into this game.
At some point, you have to toss up the hands and say "at this level of justification it might be better to just not say it in the first place".
God success arguments are so farging stupid, why do marketers (and fans!) still... /scream
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Ok I see your point but that is really nitpicking because when you look at the entire genre as a whole only WoW and Everquest really had major success.
You're aware there are more games that clearly outsold EQ, right?
Which brings us back around to Kyleran's question. You're applying some standard other than subs or dollars, so what is it?
Not 3D mmo's, EQ was the first 3D mmo and up until WOW EQ had the highest sub rate. I will say that to me their have been other mmo's that have done well.
If you are talking dollars then it's WOW, if you are talking longest running 3d mmo then you are talking EQ. If you are talking player numbers in the west then you are talking WOW.
If i was a developer i would head over to korea or china to make my mmo, you can see that the up and coming Asian mmo's have far more features than western mmo's being implemented
See how many qualifications you need to make to force that original statement to be even partially true?
3D--can't allow UO to be considered, as it's older. Western-can't allow the Lineage games to be considered, or you lose on subs. Up until WoW--obvious reasons, we can't let Blizzard or CCP or EA into this game.
At some point, you have to toss up the hands and say "at this level of justification it might be better to just not say it in the first place".
God success arguments are so farging stupid, why do marketers (and fans!) still... /scream
Wrap it up how you want but what i've said is true, you can't get round it.
America is notorious for the "Rapid rise and downfall" in every media.. We have one hit wonders that seem to come from the strangest places and people are always searching for the next best thing.
I almost always see instant success as a bad thing in terms of longevity for anything entertainment wise.. Things that build up from humble beginnings usually stay healthy longer..
Companies seem to be more concerned with chasing that short term "Gangnam style" dollar, instead of reaching for that 'Spongebob" dollar (which reportedly was almost canceled after its first season not being up to rating standards, turned into one of the most famous cartoons in history)
Perfectly stated.
Just look at all the fantastic TV shows canceled over the past decade due to low ratings after half a season. Hell if Seinfeld came out today, it wouldn't last an entire season. Not to even mention how all the top grossing films are mostly terrible, while the true gems can barely stay in theaters to make their money back.
It's hilarious how much MMO's mimic TV, movies, and music. Why be creative and take a risk when you can produce a reality TV show for almost nothing and market the crap out of it.
MMO's, music, and movies need to come from true artists and stop coming from accountants and suits. I realize that's easier said than done but it was once and it can be again.
Society in general has lost their passion to stand up for things, especially in the US. No one believes in anything anymore. It may be their time up there, but it's our time down here! That all ends the second we ride up Troy's bucket. That's right, current MMO's are Troys bucket.
It's nothing to do with regions. This is simply the marketing version of whining about having to compete in an oversaturated market rather than the green industry Blizzard dived into back when WoW originally launched.
Eve was a success and if im not mistaken its sttill succeeding. Not many mmos can report growth and success after 10 years. But thats an icelandic company. I lovehow people use wow as a bench mark.. Il say it one last time. Wow is shit.. Its the advertising campaign that was fantastic. No other game is advertisef like wow. And im pretty sure if they used ingame footage rather than that rediculous cgi animated stuff wow would die a death.
Comments
The fool from Take-Two Interactive has no clue what hes talking about if he thinks there was only 2 successful MMO's.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Complete and utter poppycock. I may as well make the assertion that Video Games don't work at all in any market, just because a popular movie sold more tickets than a specific game sold. Or that RTS games will never be successful because Pokémon sold millions on the gameboy. Making broad statements such as saying that a game from different genres are the reasons for the arguable bad selling of another genre is just pure rhetoric without any substantial evidence to back up the claim whatsoever. Who comes up with these allegations?
MMOs used to be a niche market with very few sales, and only in the last ten years did it turn into it's own genre. Before then it was hurting to even find a single investor and many games were closed. The game Trials of Ascension was one such game that couldn't get investors back in 2001 or whatever and not they're starting to get what they need in 2013 simply because of the interest in both the genre and it's potential. In fact, it's becoming so that technology is advancing so much that we may soon see games call themselves "online" when they have the same capacity to do things as MMOs did ten years ago.
There have been many successes in the genre, and not just "WoW" and "Everquest". It's just so hard to believe people would write things such as the OP's linked article for anything else other than trying and get recognition for poorly thought out ideas that some how form in their minds. Is this how we're marketing ourselves these days? Perhaps I should talk about Twilight and 50 shades of Gray and compare them to video gaming and see how well that turns out. In my opinion, it would make more sense than what was in that article (sarcasm?). Of course, this is to source of the information and not the writer.
Two things.
(1) Why does everyone forget that Ultima Online was what made MMO's today, what they are? It was there BEFORE EQ, and was just as popular in its day.
(2) So long as people support F2P models because they don't want to fork out the necessary cash for a great game, we'll keep seeing a spew of unsuccessful games. I'm not even sure why there is this craze for anime/F2p right now. It's the worst immersion possible.
I make that $90 million
^
America is notorious for the "Rapid rise and downfall" in every media.. We have one hit wonders that seem to come from the strangest places and people are always searching for the next best thing.
I almost always see instant success as a bad thing in terms of longevity for anything entertainment wise.. Things that build up from humble beginnings usually stay healthy longer..
Companies seem to be more concerned with chasing that short term "Gangnam style" dollar, instead of reaching for that 'Spongebob" dollar (which reportedly was almost canceled after its first season not being up to rating standards, turned into one of the most famous cartoons in history)
Define Success.
I think WoW is the biggest failure in the history of MMOS. Financial success, yes. Everything else it lowered the bar. Graphically 5 years behind when it came out. Crafting reduced to clicking one button and waiting. Combat reduced to spamming a few buttons. Endless Quest hub grind.
They probably did with Titan what they always do: copy and steal from other IP's and sell it as their own. Now they realized that the MMO Market is going belly up (some might say it already is) and they need an excuse to overhaul the plagiarized crap they produced.
Blizzard could not find an original idea if it crawled up their ass.
Just in case you guys don't know there are other parts of the world than the US and Asia.
I would say the same for Europe, MMO's do not have the staying power they seem to in the East. Without knowing what the revenues are like and so on, it is hard to determine success. The only Asian MMO I know at all is FF and I noted that even after an awful launch they keep updating and pumping money into it. That shows a confidence I am not sure you would see outside of those countries. Over here we downsize the staff and pull the money plug.
What are you trying to say? Sequels rarely do really well in mmospace historically, yet fans show just stupid (imo) levels of brand loyalty as far as fannish company faith?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
if the game wasnt a success, it wouldnt have been a financial success, can't have one without the other, okay now i appreciate you don't like the game, but you are wrong, what WoW has done has upped the bar for success, not just in terms of financial success, but also in quality, part of the reason why so many games are failures, is because they didnt measure up to WoW, even though they tried to copy it, hate the game all you want, but it doesnt change the facts.
They only need to look at a game like minecraft and then add an element of RPG .. finally add MMO.
simple really .
^^^^ Going to have to agree with this ^^^^^
Just cause they are not chart topping each other every time a MMO is made, doesn't mean they aren't successful.
For a colossal let down that it was, I think even SWTOR made its money back and still has a player base and still putting out updates.
EVE same deal.
Secret World has a loyal fanbase and still chugging along.
Guild Wars 2 is doing just fine.
Those are just off the top of my head.
People are too obsessed with the massive numbers WoW reached, which will likely never happen again.
MMO's are doing just fine in the US.
Also someone mentioned the quality of eastern MMOs and I will say that up until recently were kinda all the same but they are breaking that mold now and moving in new directions.
MMORPG Gamers/Developers need a reality check!
Facts (green) and Opinions (yellow).
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
funny how I've always thought that eve online is a successful game in the states (judging by the number of US people in game)
but again, World of Warcraft has changed the meaning of the word "success" in the field of MMOS, imo
Not 3D mmo's, EQ was the first 3D mmo and up until WOW EQ had the highest sub rate. I will say that to me their have been other mmo's that have done well.
If you are talking dollars then it's WOW, if you are talking longest running 3d mmo then you are talking EQ. If you are talking player numbers in the west then you are talking WOW.
If i was a developer i would head over to korea or china to make my mmo, you can see that the up and coming Asian mmo's have far more features than western mmo's being implemented
I think quite a few more MMOs have worked fine in the US.
DAOC, UO, EQ2, Anarchy Online, Aherons cal, SWG.. just a few i can think of off the top of my head..
Now the issue started when wow was released, it got really popular fast.. so other companies wanted some of the pie and for some reason decided it was a good idea to clone wow..
The problem is like any copy of a product they are usually inferior or people just like the original better.. I mean would most people want to wear a pair of knock off Nike shoes with a backwards e in the name.. not not really..
For some reason AAA devs still have not realized that they cant just copy wow because people already play and like wow// a dodgy copy is not going to make them leave that game.
It looks like a lot of indie devs understand that and also realize that the amount of players wow has is kind of a 1 off.. most good MMOS before and after wow have maybe had 200k-500k max stable subs.. so indie devs are developnig their games towards those kind of numbers instead of the millions that wow has, plus they are making different types of MMORPGs.. just look at the recent ones that have got funded on kickstarter ... SOE have also noticed this by announcing EQ:Next will be a sandbox game..
Hopefully we will soon start to see the end of wow clones..
See how many qualifications you need to make to force that original statement to be even partially true?
3D--can't allow UO to be considered, as it's older. Western-can't allow the Lineage games to be considered, or you lose on subs. Up until WoW--obvious reasons, we can't let Blizzard or CCP or EA into this game.
At some point, you have to toss up the hands and say "at this level of justification it might be better to just not say it in the first place".
God success arguments are so farging stupid, why do marketers (and fans!) still... /scream
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Wrap it up how you want but what i've said is true, you can't get round it.
Live with it.
Oh and screaming wont change it.
Just not say that's not true..
Meridian 59 was.. and its also still going..
http://www.meridian59.com/
Yes i'll agree with you on that one but we are also talking about successful mmo's in the US.
Perfectly stated.
Just look at all the fantastic TV shows canceled over the past decade due to low ratings after half a season. Hell if Seinfeld came out today, it wouldn't last an entire season. Not to even mention how all the top grossing films are mostly terrible, while the true gems can barely stay in theaters to make their money back.
It's hilarious how much MMO's mimic TV, movies, and music. Why be creative and take a risk when you can produce a reality TV show for almost nothing and market the crap out of it.
MMO's, music, and movies need to come from true artists and stop coming from accountants and suits. I realize that's easier said than done but it was once and it can be again.
Society in general has lost their passion to stand up for things, especially in the US. No one believes in anything anymore. It may be their time up there, but it's our time down here! That all ends the second we ride up Troy's bucket. That's right, current MMO's are Troys bucket.
Successful MMORPGs: