I made it to level 30 in Tera, and the first two Dungeons. So I did not make it to end-game, sure. However, it was boring. Also, alot of youe comments make no sense.
Bullshit you didn't hit anything you couldn't solo. Some are downright impossible to and designed around it.
I found Tera, on the whole, much easier than TSW, at any point. You must not have got far in TSW.
I'm just saying those who claim Tera is a good example of a "skilled" game are going to have to try harder, considering you basically can never wipe.
I think the problem with using TERA as an example is its not very good at the action combat thing. I don't find TERA difficult, I find it tedious. Killing a BAM isnt a skill test (past the initial learning of the attack tells), its an endurance test.
We have yet to see a good action combat system in an MMORPG. And Im still not sure there is a large audience that went four hour play sessions of devil may cry level combat. Niche crowd, absolutely. Maybe even bigger than niche. But not majority.
But just as fantasy will always be the majority as its the roots of the genre, non fantasy always has its place too.
Both work well, but this is the world of gaming, so we have to support only one and become fanboys of that system.
I don't think Reticule means you have less time for downtime and always need to be combat ready. That's down to if the world is open pvp and how pvp is set up.
There is less room for strategy in action combat but you can end up feeling like a chess piece in traditional MMO combat. I hope we can find both in the MMO's to come.
Originally posted by Vorch I use vent, so I feel that I get the best gameplay and community building tools...maybe action games simply need better voice chat? Idk.
Voice chat I do not foresee working for everyone like text chat does. Usually, voice chat is used by groups or guilds, where it works very well. There are very few games that have server-wide voice chat systems in place, which is needed to get the community involved instead of just a select few players on the same system.
Once server-wide voice chat happens, then you have everyone with the ability to talk, some of them all the time, just like text chat. There would be no voice chat admins to take charge of the chat system like they do with the smaller implementations. Text chat is easily ignored. Voice chat is not, without disabling it and then what is the point of having it in the first place?
Voice chat is great in small groups, like groups, guilds, and raids. But that does not help the community at all. It does help that small group, though, and it would help with action combat games. I just don't see it taking the place of text chat very well.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Neither is a make or break for me. I all depends on the game and what fits. Specific features like these aren't important on their own - it's the whole package that matters.
Originally posted by Zooce How does a tab-target game incorporate friendly-fire? Anyone with minimal fps experience knows FF requires more skill.
Are there MMOs that handle friendly fire?
For me, tab targeting hands down. Like others, I get overly tired in action combat games. I do like the dodge mechanic, though. Tab Targeting handles this as a dice roll (Random Number Generator) if there is a dodge skill, which is fine for me.
Neither Tab Targeting nor Reticule handle misses, though. How far does that arrow or bullet go after missing the target to the left? Does it hit another monster in another close area? No. It misses and disappears, falling harmlessly to the ground "somewhere." Would reticule targeting be as fun then? Having mobs adding onto a fight when a player misses would cause all kinds of grief.
The biggest reason I prefer tab targeting is that my character, not me, is doing the combat. My mouse control is not good. Hopefully, my character is much better at aiming than I am
From Vendetta Online's Wikipedia entry: "Weapons may cause the target ship to be displaced, or to spin through concussive force. Weapons may also hit a target that has not been selected, or hit an unintended target or friendly ship."
I prefer having the option to use keyboard shortcuts to target, while also having to manually aim at the selected target. Realistic physics is a big plus. I think Voice Chat will become an added part of immersion in some MMORPGs along with the Oculus rift.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Originally posted by Zooce How does a tab-target game incorporate friendly-fire? Anyone with minimal fps experience knows FF requires more skill.
Are there MMOs that handle friendly fire?For me, tab targeting hands down. Like others, I get overly tired in action combat games. I do like the dodge mechanic, though. Tab Targeting handles this as a dice roll (Random Number Generator) if there is a dodge skill, which is fine for me.Neither Tab Targeting nor Reticule handle misses, though. How far does that arrow or bullet go after missing the target to the left? Does it hit another monster in another close area? No. It misses and disappears, falling harmlessly to the ground "somewhere." Would reticule targeting be as fun then? Having mobs adding onto a fight when a player misses would cause all kinds of grief.The biggest reason I prefer tab targeting is that my character, not me, is doing the combat. My mouse control is not good. Hopefully, my character is much better at aiming than I am
From Vendetta Online's Wikipedia entry: "Weapons may cause the target ship to be displaced, or to spin through concussive force. Weapons may also hit a target that has not been selected, or hit an unintended target or friendly ship."I prefer having the option to use keyboard shortcuts to target, while also having to manually aim at the selected target. Realistic physics is a big plus. I think Voice Chat will become an added part of immersion in some MMORPGs along with the Oculus rift.
Thanks for that cool video
I do like that physics are incorporated in that game. There should be concussive forces affecting ship combat
Space combat is one setting where tab targeting should be in place, in my opinion. Ships are run by computers, not the humans (or aliens) manning the guns, usually, Millennium Falcon aside Or maybe a difference big ships and small ones.
"Phasers locked on, Captain!" "Fire!"
Hopefully the computer takes into account the trajectory of the target when firing, but tab targeting in space MMOs should not be auto-hits. There should still be maneuvers that ships can do to avoid the fire.
In STO (Star Trek Online), your weapons had to face the target unless your weapons bank had 360 degree firing capabilities. On my first ship, I had forward (or rear) facing Photon Torpedoes that I could fire only at targets in front of (or behind) me. My phasers were 360 degree and could fire at any target anywhere. Aiming was a very general thing, not a pinpoint cross-hair affair.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
i like both tab target and reticule aiming. With that said, i prefer the GW2 style which does not require reticule aiming and it does not require tab target at all either. With that said too, i will only play reticule aiming games if i can play them with a gamepad.
Tera did a great job with their gamepad support with 3 different modifiers (left trigger, right trigger, both triggers simultaneously). I also played TSW, raiderz, neverwinter with gamepad using xpadder but without proper gamepad support i cant get the full experience due to the lack of modifiers to have every single button (including menus) on the gamepad like i do with Tera.
Final fantasy XIV ARR have a pretty good gamepad support too and i cant wait to get my hands on it with my gamepad.
Definitely reticule combat for me, more 'feel' to it, more involving, more intense (both melee and ranged).
I don't get the sense of being involved in the combat anymore with tab-target MMO's, they've just grown boring to me.
Tab-targets, soft-targets etc involve less skill imo, because every missile/attack is a "heatseeker" where as FPS based combat is generally based on your aim, reflex and timing at the same time to land the hit, compared to pressing tab and mashing buttons with your preferred rotation and hoping you land crits, far too boring and RNG dependant, that to me is not skill.
Originally posted by Fusion Definitely reticule combat for me, more 'feel' to it, more involving, more intense (both melee and ranged).I don't get the sense of being involved in the combat anymore with tab-target MMO's, they've just grown boring to me.Tab-targets, soft-targets etc involve less skill imo, because every missile/attack is a "heatseeker" where as FPS based combat is generally based on your aim, reflex and timing at the same time to land the hit, compared to pressing tab and mashing buttons with your preferred rotation and hoping you land crits, far too boring and RNG dependant, that to me is not skill.
That is the one drawback to tab targeting for me. Seeing a fireball being cast, running behind a rock or box, and then seeing that fireball follow you, or worse, ignore the rock or box is not good, for me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Fusion Definitely reticule combat for me, more 'feel' to it, more involving, more intense (both melee and ranged).
I don't get the sense of being involved in the combat anymore with tab-target MMO's, they've just grown boring to me.
Tab-targets, soft-targets etc involve less skill imo, because every missile/attack is a "heatseeker" where as FPS based combat is generally based on your aim, reflex and timing at the same time to land the hit, compared to pressing tab and mashing buttons with your preferred rotation and hoping you land crits, far too boring and RNG dependant, that to me is not skill.
That is the one drawback to tab targeting for me. Seeing a fireball being cast, running behind a rock or box, and then seeing that fireball follow you, or worse, ignore the rock or box is not good, for me.
thats not a tab target thing. Tab target games absolutely can and do use line of sight. Just nt all of them.
I played Tera. Hardly skill based. That game was so easy I fell asleep during it. Want an actually hard game? Try The Secret World. In terms of difficulty it is miles ahead of Tera.
Enemies in Tera were big and slow, and solo-able if you weren't an idiot. I hit LV.18 and Solo'd my first BAM, a Basalisk, it took me about 10-12 minutes...was very exciting.
Then the game just got kind of boring.
I love my action based combat, but this is skill based(video I am putting in the post)
Tera is not.
As I said in my first one, both have their own requirements. I am pretty disappointed rather than form actual debates, people are just going "NO MINE REQUIRES MORE SKILL", instead of, ya know...telling us why.
Is it to much to ask? I thought it might be...just for people to list both sides of the argument. Why you think one is more skill based than the other, and why the other isn't skill based, other than the "That's dinosaur stuff!"
TSW hard? LOL. I played that game through and through and didn't ever hit anything I couldn't solo. Even the instances were pretty easy mode. That game was only hard for people that were too idiotic to create a decent build.
I can already tell you didn't get very far in TERA. The collision alone makes TERA a more thorough game.
And you are a pretty big hypocrite, you say you want reasons as to why people think whatever is more difficult/better and not "NO MINE REQUIRES MORE SKILL" but you did exactly that in this post.
TERA DOESNT REQUIRE SKILL I FELL ASLEEP, GO PLAY TSW!
Way to go guy.
I made it to level 30 in Tera, and the first two Dungeons. So I did not make it to end-game, sure. However, it was boring. Also, alot of youe comments make no sense.
Bullshit you didn't hit anything you couldn't solo. Some are downright impossible to and designed around it.
I found Tera, on the whole, much easier than TSW, at any point. You must not have got far in TSW.
I'm just saying those who claim Tera is a good example of a "skilled" game are going to have to try harder, considering you basically can never wipe.
Wrong. I made it to endgame in TSW was a quality 10.4 Blood Magic Build for PVP/PVE.
Derp derp most of TSW is built around solo, and what was meant for a group of 2/3, a blood magic user of decent build could solo it pretty easy. The later instances obviously not since they were meant for quality 10.
So you played through the easy mode of TERA and decided it didn't require any skill. Because BoL and SM were the L2P dungeons. I would love to see anyone go through Manaya's Core one time and not wipe, or AC, or even CoF on tier 2/3. Kelsaiks would make most people dump their pants.
Literally the only difficulty in TSW is making a decent build. The Investigations were fun and difficult on the mind in certain aspects, but that isn't skill. That is intelligence and knowledge. The actual encounters were seriously easy.
TERA you have dodging that is constant. TSW you would dodge every now and again. TERA has collision giving another aspect to large group content and coordination. You have active blocking on your tanks. Healers that don't watch the UI and actually have to get in close and personal to get off their biggest heals. You get hit once or twice in TERA at endgame and you are dead.
I completely agree. I played both Tera and TSW. TSW is good for its own merits. But to say its more difficult then Tera is a joke. I always found it funny doing endgame in Tera. The people who struggled the most were die hard tab target players. They could just not grasp the fact they actually had to do something more then just stand there, click a rotation and eat a sandwich. As far as the "big ass monster fills half the screen". Low level BAMs are easy for a reason. They are to introduce you to the BAMS of Tera. So you killed a Level 20 BAM *Golf Clap*. Cool story. Now go do Queen, or any other end game dungeon and let me know how those bams work out for ya lol. Thats also only one side of the coin. Tab target pvp is a complete joke. O boy, he click his ability faster then me. Guess I'm CC'ed and dead now. At least in Tera, I had the opportunity to avoid attacks an switch strats on the fly. Tab target pvp always seemed like I was playing a Final Fantasy game on a console (and not the mmos).
I played Tera. Hardly skill based. That game was so easy I fell asleep during it. Want an actually hard game? Try The Secret World. In terms of difficulty it is miles ahead of Tera.
Enemies in Tera were big and slow, and solo-able if you weren't an idiot. I hit LV.18 and Solo'd my first BAM, a Basalisk, it took me about 10-12 minutes...was very exciting.
Then the game just got kind of boring.
I love my action based combat, but this is skill based(video I am putting in the post)
Tera is not.
As I said in my first one, both have their own requirements. I am pretty disappointed rather than form actual debates, people are just going "NO MINE REQUIRES MORE SKILL", instead of, ya know...telling us why.
Is it to much to ask? I thought it might be...just for people to list both sides of the argument. Why you think one is more skill based than the other, and why the other isn't skill based, other than the "That's dinosaur stuff!"
TSW hard? LOL. I played that game through and through and didn't ever hit anything I couldn't solo. Even the instances were pretty easy mode. That game was only hard for people that were too idiotic to create a decent build.
I can already tell you didn't get very far in TERA. The collision alone makes TERA a more thorough game.
And you are a pretty big hypocrite, you say you want reasons as to why people think whatever is more difficult/better and not "NO MINE REQUIRES MORE SKILL" but you did exactly that in this post.
TERA DOESNT REQUIRE SKILL I FELL ASLEEP, GO PLAY TSW!
Way to go guy.
I made it to level 30 in Tera, and the first two Dungeons. So I did not make it to end-game, sure. However, it was boring. Also, alot of youe comments make no sense.
Bullshit you didn't hit anything you couldn't solo. Some are downright impossible to and designed around it.
I found Tera, on the whole, much easier than TSW, at any point. You must not have got far in TSW.
I'm just saying those who claim Tera is a good example of a "skilled" game are going to have to try harder, considering you basically can never wipe.
Wrong. I made it to endgame in TSW was a quality 10.4 Blood Magic Build for PVP/PVE.
Derp derp most of TSW is built around solo, and what was meant for a group of 2/3, a blood magic user of decent build could solo it pretty easy. The later instances obviously not since they were meant for quality 10.
So you played through the easy mode of TERA and decided it didn't require any skill. Because BoL and SM were the L2P dungeons. I would love to see anyone go through Manaya's Core one time and not wipe, or AC, or even CoF on tier 2/3. Kelsaiks would make most people dump their pants.
Literally the only difficulty in TSW is making a decent build. The Investigations were fun and difficult on the mind in certain aspects, but that isn't skill. That is intelligence and knowledge. The actual encounters were seriously easy.
TERA you have dodging that is constant. TSW you would dodge every now and again. TERA has collision giving another aspect to large group content and coordination. You have active blocking on your tanks. Healers that don't watch the UI and actually have to get in close and personal to get off their biggest heals. You get hit once or twice in TERA at endgame and you are dead.
I completely agree. I played both Tera and TSW. TSW is good for its own merits. But to say its more difficult then Tera is a joke. I always found it funny doing endgame in Tera. The people who struggled the most were die hard tab target players. They could just not grasp the fact they actually had to do something more then just stand there, click a rotation and eat a sandwich. As far as the "big ass monster fills half the screen". Low level BAMs are easy for a reason. They are to introduce you to the BAMS of Tera. So you killed a Level 20 BAM *Golf Clap*. Cool story. Now go do Queen, or any other end game dungeon and let me know how those bams work out for ya lol. Thats also only one side of the coin. Tab target pvp is a complete joke. O boy, he click his ability faster then me. Guess I'm CC'ed and dead now. At least in Tera, I had the opportunity to avoid attacks an switch strats on the fly. Tab target pvp always seemed like I was playing a Final Fantasy game on a console (and not the mmos).
Agreed.
I wasn't trying to knock TSW for any reason. I found the game fun for what it was. It was difficult in its own way through investigations and creating good/amazing builds. A mind game. TERA is definitely a game based on skill, there are so many elements involved in the PVE come endgame that people just don't know about. Queen was difficult before everyone became VM geared. Kelsaiks 20man people wipe on all the time.
This guy thought he knew TERA inside and out because he did two of the instances lol. BoL and SM. Those are by far the easiest dungeons in the game. SM was slightly more difficult than BoL. It slowly ramps up in difficulty then take off at around the level 40 area. I mean at 60 people still wipe all the time on 2/3 CoF.
And you are right the PvP is a whole other side to TERA and its action combat. It isn't just a sit and burn through my action bar/rotation as fast as I can like tab targets are. You can't do that just because keeping a target locked down is the main priority since your abilities don't track.
People that say TERA is easy/requires no skill haven't played it or it was too difficult for them and they are trying to make themselves feel better.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I agree with you, both require their own kind of skill. I would really like to see a game with both methods supporting each other. Maybe a game that uses mainly grid, but lets you keep a "defensive target" (like Warhammer) for some skills?
Tab target, if you want any social aspect to the game.
If you're twitching, you ain't typing, and if you ain't typing, you ain't talking.
There's this wonderful thing called voice chat. You know, actually talking to another human being with your voice.
With voice chat you cant be simultaneously in guild, group, and general chat all at once. Plus, a lot of people don't use it for many valid reasons.
I keep seeing this kind of thing pop up. I have NO problems in Neverwinter using reticules, being on voice chat with buddies while still participating in guild, zone and party chat. Maybe some people just need to work on their multitasking skills.
I see alot of threads about how reticule is the future of MMORPGs, that action combat requires more skill and somehow has more depth. That all MMORPG's should adopt such a system.
I personally don't believe this. I thought it was so, years ago when Vindictus game out, I was super amazed, and Reticule can be very fun. However MMORPG's really are meant for the long-haul and I find it can become tiring after awhile, being constantly vigilant. You got a scratch? You can't or you die. You wanna eat a snack while grouping? Can't. Wanna mindlessly grind some task? Can't.
Then there is also the debate about how it's more "skill based." one could make this argument, but I disagree again. I am a lover of games like Jedi Academy, Devil May Cry, Chivalry, Mount & Blade. But really it becomes almost the same after awhile. Press keys 1-4 for your attacks, or RMB / LMB top perform a combo. It ends up just being as monotone as Tab target can be - except you've got to put alot energy into it.
Tab target on the other hand, allows for better animations, more interesting skills, and depth that you can't have with action based combat. They both have their ups and downs, but after years of believing how action combat such as Vindictus was going to revolutionize the MMORPG, and how it must be more skill based, I've played alot of new MMOs since then and changed my opinion on the matter.
Both require skill. That's why I dislike fans of reticule who say they won't play a MMO without "action combat", because it's not skill based. I also dislike fans of tab target who won't do action combat because they say they don't want twitch based skill in a game. One requires dexterity, the other theoretical thinking. Both require their own type of skill, neither is more skill based in the end, I find.
What are your thoughts?
I know a game that is tab target, but is more skill based then any reticule game
Interesting argument. I'd be curious to know the ages of those on both sides. My (ignorant) assumption would place the majority of younger people liking the reticule style of combat. Those older, who grew up with MMOs would probably pick the tab target, with a few exceptions on both sides.
My view is reticule is inadequate as an RPG mechanic. To me, the whole point of an RPG is tactics and time. Having more abilities than you can use forcing you to choose. You lose that aspect with any action combat, and like others said, over time it simply devolves into circle strafing and kiting.
Both styles can get boring, but I can at least play tab target casually and do other things (either in game, or out). One of the aspects I loved about Everquest was reading up on my skills while in battle. Figuring out if I should change my rotation.
The action combat is ruining (read: removing) the RPG aspect of these games changing them. I'm not here to fight against it as thats pointless - the direction will be the direction - but it does leave a distaste in my mouth.
I just hope some developer continues with an (updated) old school tab target system for the niche market I seem to be in.
My view is reticule is inadequate as an RPG mechanic. To me, the whole point of an RPG is tactics and time. Having more abilities than you can use forcing you to choose. You lose that aspect with any action combat, and like others said, over time it simply devolves into circle strafing and kiting.
This strikes me as a hasty generalization.
In Vendetta Online (which includes a target leadoff reticule, along with the ability to select targets via keyboard) "circle strafing and kiting" are seen as beginner tactics which most seasoned players know how to effectively counter. It's more a game of using one's momentum and energy in concert with position and attitude, relative position and headings of enemy targets and friendly ships, one's mass, loadout, and ammunition remaining. To combine all this gracefully and skillfully takes years of practice. Among other things, it's a game about efficiency of motion. Think Jujutsu in space.
Different tactics and techniques can take years to master, and any given player may or may not have all of this at his/her disposal. Some people prefer to use mouse and keyboard, others prefer a joystick or a gamepad, we may even see the Razer Hydra come to the fore in usage before long. These interface devices are not ultimately what makes the game strategic, however; it's in the physics: the emergent complexity of all various possible interactions between varying numbers of ships of various factions, the 'feeling out' of an unknown pilot's reflexes, and the subconscious training that occurs allowing one to regulate his/her breathing, heartbeat, and focus during intense encounters.
Could any of this be applied to a game with tab targeting? Yes, probably... but in my eyes it would not be as intuitive (as mentioned in the thread on these forums I linked to) or as easy to learn. I find that certain games hold great depth with a minimum amount of contrived (programmed) complexity; these games tend to be ones that support emergence through simple physical interactions. VO is one of these games. As far as other games with reticule combat, I can't say.
edit: as a brief example, there is a technique which some pilots use called a 'quick recover' where, after being hit with a weapon that jolts one's attitude, the pilot will use the momentum to spin around full circle to face his or her opponent again. It takes simultaneous relaxation, quick reflexes, and a 'no-fight' approach even after being hit, which is contrary to natural tendency.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
My view is reticule is inadequate as an RPG mechanic. To me, the whole point of an RPG is tactics and time. Having more abilities than you can use forcing you to choose. You lose that aspect with any action combat, and like others said, over time it simply devolves into circle strafing and kiting.
This strikes me as a hasty generalization.
In Vendetta Online (which includes a target leadoff reticule, along with the ability to select targets via keyboard) "circle strafing and kiting" are seen as beginner tactics which most seasoned players know how to effectively counter. It's more a game of using one's momentum and energy in concert with position and attitude, relative position and headings of enemy targets and friendly ships, one's mass, loadout, and ammunition remaining. To combine all this gracefully and skillfully takes years of practice. Among other things, it's a game about efficiency of motion. Think Jujutsu in space.
Different tactics and techniques can take years to master, and any given player may or may not have all of this at his/her disposal. Some people prefer to use mouse and keyboard, others prefer a joystick or a gamepad, we may even see the Razer Hydra come to the fore in usage before long. These interface devices are not ultimately what makes the game strategic, however; it's in the physics: the emergent complexity of all various possible interactions between varying numbers of ships of various factions, the 'feeling out' of an unknown pilot's reflexes, and the subconscious training that occurs allowing one to regulate his/her breathing, heartbeat, and focus during intense encounters.
Could any of this be applied to a game with tab targeting? Yes, probably... but in my eyes it would not be as intuitive (as mentioned in the thread on these forums I linked to) or as easy to learn. I find that certain games hold great depth with a minimum amount of contrived (programmed) complexity; these games tend to be ones that support emergence through simple physical interactions. VO is one of these games. As far as other games with reticule combat, I can't say.
edit: as a brief example, there is a technique which some pilots use called a 'quick recover' where, after being hit with a weapon that jolts one's attitude, the pilot will use the momentum to spin around full circle to face his or her opponent again. It takes simultaneous relaxation, quick reflexes, and a 'no-fight' approach even after being hit, which is contrary to natural tendency.
you assessment may be right. My core argument is the dislike for (continuous) motion in regards to combat. I say that to mean I do like movement, but not when its required to fight. I don't see this as a right or wrong answer but just a matter of preference. And I prefer 'abstract' combat where I can develop the stats of my character and use that in combat. I've been playing RPGs since they started and this is what I'm used to. I've tried to change (playing DCUO, GW2, TERA, and other action-like/based combat) and in the end the aspect which I love is missing.
Now I will say there are degrees of motion. Meaning I can accept the action combat of TERA and Dragon's Nest over GW2 or DCUO. That might come down to implementation.
But for me skill-based combat and RPG don't mix. At that point it devolves into an action game with (light) RPG tropes. Unfortunately which are not enough to keep my interest. I dont want to think about the combat, I want to focus on the numbers of combat. Which is why I loved the slow combat of RPGs to begin with.
Again, Im not saying all MMORPGs need to be the slower, older tab-target. I'm saying dont forget the audience who likes to play that way. The only tab target game (that Im actively aware of) is ArcheAge and I eagerly anticipate it.
Tera is skill based. Just having to kite, aim, or move requires skill. Selecting the right move at the right time in either tab or reticule is what define the difficulty. It's easy to solo in Tera because of the simple fact you can move and the monster has to get in range and hit your hit box. Where as in most random generator games you can't actually dodge and your distance doesn't matter to a degree.
It's the degree of monster counters, your selection of moves at the precise time, and the amount of resources given which make a game hard.
Both systems tab and reticule can be hard if designed properly. But yes tab is more easier on the hands. There is no debate there. Developers should look for more ways to utilize and differentiate their tab or reticule systems regardless.
Comments
I think the problem with using TERA as an example is its not very good at the action combat thing. I don't find TERA difficult, I find it tedious. Killing a BAM isnt a skill test (past the initial learning of the attack tells), its an endurance test.
We have yet to see a good action combat system in an MMORPG. And Im still not sure there is a large audience that went four hour play sessions of devil may cry level combat. Niche crowd, absolutely. Maybe even bigger than niche. But not majority.
But just as fantasy will always be the majority as its the roots of the genre, non fantasy always has its place too.
Both work well, but this is the world of gaming, so we have to support only one and become fanboys of that system.
I don't think Reticule means you have less time for downtime and always need to be combat ready. That's down to if the world is open pvp and how pvp is set up.
There is less room for strategy in action combat but you can end up feeling like a chess piece in traditional MMO combat. I hope we can find both in the MMO's to come.
Once server-wide voice chat happens, then you have everyone with the ability to talk, some of them all the time, just like text chat. There would be no voice chat admins to take charge of the chat system like they do with the smaller implementations. Text chat is easily ignored. Voice chat is not, without disabling it and then what is the point of having it in the first place?
Voice chat is great in small groups, like groups, guilds, and raids. But that does not help the community at all. It does help that small group, though, and it would help with action combat games. I just don't see it taking the place of text chat very well.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
From Vendetta Online's Wikipedia entry: "Weapons may cause the target ship to be displaced, or to spin through concussive force. Weapons may also hit a target that has not been selected, or hit an unintended target or friendly ship."
I prefer having the option to use keyboard shortcuts to target, while also having to manually aim at the selected target. Realistic physics is a big plus. I think Voice Chat will become an added part of immersion in some MMORPGs along with the Oculus rift.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
I do like that physics are incorporated in that game. There should be concussive forces affecting ship combat
Space combat is one setting where tab targeting should be in place, in my opinion. Ships are run by computers, not the humans (or aliens) manning the guns, usually, Millennium Falcon aside
Or maybe a difference big ships and small ones.
"Phasers locked on, Captain!"
"Fire!"
Hopefully the computer takes into account the trajectory of the target when firing, but tab targeting in space MMOs should not be auto-hits. There should still be maneuvers that ships can do to avoid the fire.
In STO (Star Trek Online), your weapons had to face the target unless your weapons bank had 360 degree firing capabilities. On my first ship, I had forward (or rear) facing Photon Torpedoes that I could fire only at targets in front of (or behind) me. My phasers were 360 degree and could fire at any target anywhere. Aiming was a very general thing, not a pinpoint cross-hair affair.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
i like both tab target and reticule aiming. With that said, i prefer the GW2 style which does not require reticule aiming and it does not require tab target at all either. With that said too, i will only play reticule aiming games if i can play them with a gamepad.
Tera did a great job with their gamepad support with 3 different modifiers (left trigger, right trigger, both triggers simultaneously). I also played TSW, raiderz, neverwinter with gamepad using xpadder but without proper gamepad support i cant get the full experience due to the lack of modifiers to have every single button (including menus) on the gamepad like i do with Tera.
Final fantasy XIV ARR have a pretty good gamepad support too and i cant wait to get my hands on it with my gamepad.
Definitely reticule combat for me, more 'feel' to it, more involving, more intense (both melee and ranged).
I don't get the sense of being involved in the combat anymore with tab-target MMO's, they've just grown boring to me.
Tab-targets, soft-targets etc involve less skill imo, because every missile/attack is a "heatseeker" where as FPS based combat is generally based on your aim, reflex and timing at the same time to land the hit, compared to pressing tab and mashing buttons with your preferred rotation and hoping you land crits, far too boring and RNG dependant, that to me is not skill.
this also kind of integral to the rpg genre, which is based on randomness heavily influenced by stats.
I have zero interest in playing a game without this sort of thing.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
thats not a tab target thing. Tab target games absolutely can and do use line of sight. Just nt all of them.
I completely agree. I played both Tera and TSW. TSW is good for its own merits. But to say its more difficult then Tera is a joke. I always found it funny doing endgame in Tera. The people who struggled the most were die hard tab target players. They could just not grasp the fact they actually had to do something more then just stand there, click a rotation and eat a sandwich. As far as the "big ass monster fills half the screen". Low level BAMs are easy for a reason. They are to introduce you to the BAMS of Tera. So you killed a Level 20 BAM *Golf Clap*. Cool story. Now go do Queen, or any other end game dungeon and let me know how those bams work out for ya lol. Thats also only one side of the coin. Tab target pvp is a complete joke. O boy, he click his ability faster then me. Guess I'm CC'ed and dead now. At least in Tera, I had the opportunity to avoid attacks an switch strats on the fly. Tab target pvp always seemed like I was playing a Final Fantasy game on a console (and not the mmos).
Agreed.
I wasn't trying to knock TSW for any reason. I found the game fun for what it was. It was difficult in its own way through investigations and creating good/amazing builds. A mind game. TERA is definitely a game based on skill, there are so many elements involved in the PVE come endgame that people just don't know about. Queen was difficult before everyone became VM geared. Kelsaiks 20man people wipe on all the time.
This guy thought he knew TERA inside and out because he did two of the instances lol. BoL and SM. Those are by far the easiest dungeons in the game. SM was slightly more difficult than BoL. It slowly ramps up in difficulty then take off at around the level 40 area. I mean at 60 people still wipe all the time on 2/3 CoF.
And you are right the PvP is a whole other side to TERA and its action combat. It isn't just a sit and burn through my action bar/rotation as fast as I can like tab targets are. You can't do that just because keeping a target locked down is the main priority since your abilities don't track.
People that say TERA is easy/requires no skill haven't played it or it was too difficult for them and they are trying to make themselves feel better.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
OP:
I agree with you, both require their own kind of skill. I would really like to see a game with both methods supporting each other. Maybe a game that uses mainly grid, but lets you keep a "defensive target" (like Warhammer) for some skills?
I keep seeing this kind of thing pop up. I have NO problems in Neverwinter using reticules, being on voice chat with buddies while still participating in guild, zone and party chat. Maybe some people just need to work on their multitasking skills.
I know a game that is tab target, but is more skill based then any reticule game
Asherons Call sample video pvp
Interesting argument. I'd be curious to know the ages of those on both sides. My (ignorant) assumption would place the majority of younger people liking the reticule style of combat. Those older, who grew up with MMOs would probably pick the tab target, with a few exceptions on both sides.
My view is reticule is inadequate as an RPG mechanic. To me, the whole point of an RPG is tactics and time. Having more abilities than you can use forcing you to choose. You lose that aspect with any action combat, and like others said, over time it simply devolves into circle strafing and kiting.
Both styles can get boring, but I can at least play tab target casually and do other things (either in game, or out). One of the aspects I loved about Everquest was reading up on my skills while in battle. Figuring out if I should change my rotation.
The action combat is ruining (read: removing) the RPG aspect of these games changing them. I'm not here to fight against it as thats pointless - the direction will be the direction - but it does leave a distaste in my mouth.
I just hope some developer continues with an (updated) old school tab target system for the niche market I seem to be in.
This strikes me as a hasty generalization.
In Vendetta Online (which includes a target leadoff reticule, along with the ability to select targets via keyboard) "circle strafing and kiting" are seen as beginner tactics which most seasoned players know how to effectively counter. It's more a game of using one's momentum and energy in concert with position and attitude, relative position and headings of enemy targets and friendly ships, one's mass, loadout, and ammunition remaining. To combine all this gracefully and skillfully takes years of practice. Among other things, it's a game about efficiency of motion. Think Jujutsu in space.
Different tactics and techniques can take years to master, and any given player may or may not have all of this at his/her disposal. Some people prefer to use mouse and keyboard, others prefer a joystick or a gamepad, we may even see the Razer Hydra come to the fore in usage before long. These interface devices are not ultimately what makes the game strategic, however; it's in the physics: the emergent complexity of all various possible interactions between varying numbers of ships of various factions, the 'feeling out' of an unknown pilot's reflexes, and the subconscious training that occurs allowing one to regulate his/her breathing, heartbeat, and focus during intense encounters.
Could any of this be applied to a game with tab targeting? Yes, probably... but in my eyes it would not be as intuitive (as mentioned in the thread on these forums I linked to) or as easy to learn. I find that certain games hold great depth with a minimum amount of contrived (programmed) complexity; these games tend to be ones that support emergence through simple physical interactions. VO is one of these games. As far as other games with reticule combat, I can't say.
edit: as a brief example, there is a technique which some pilots use called a 'quick recover' where, after being hit with a weapon that jolts one's attitude, the pilot will use the momentum to spin around full circle to face his or her opponent again. It takes simultaneous relaxation, quick reflexes, and a 'no-fight' approach even after being hit, which is contrary to natural tendency.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
you assessment may be right. My core argument is the dislike for (continuous) motion in regards to combat. I say that to mean I do like movement, but not when its required to fight. I don't see this as a right or wrong answer but just a matter of preference. And I prefer 'abstract' combat where I can develop the stats of my character and use that in combat. I've been playing RPGs since they started and this is what I'm used to. I've tried to change (playing DCUO, GW2, TERA, and other action-like/based combat) and in the end the aspect which I love is missing.
Now I will say there are degrees of motion. Meaning I can accept the action combat of TERA and Dragon's Nest over GW2 or DCUO. That might come down to implementation.
But for me skill-based combat and RPG don't mix. At that point it devolves into an action game with (light) RPG tropes. Unfortunately which are not enough to keep my interest. I dont want to think about the combat, I want to focus on the numbers of combat. Which is why I loved the slow combat of RPGs to begin with.
Again, Im not saying all MMORPGs need to be the slower, older tab-target. I'm saying dont forget the audience who likes to play that way. The only tab target game (that Im actively aware of) is ArcheAge and I eagerly anticipate it.
So perhaps 'strategic' was the wrong argument.
Tera is skill based. Just having to kite, aim, or move requires skill. Selecting the right move at the right time in either tab or reticule is what define the difficulty. It's easy to solo in Tera because of the simple fact you can move and the monster has to get in range and hit your hit box. Where as in most random generator games you can't actually dodge and your distance doesn't matter to a degree.
It's the degree of monster counters, your selection of moves at the precise time, and the amount of resources given which make a game hard.
Both systems tab and reticule can be hard if designed properly. But yes tab is more easier on the hands. There is no debate there. Developers should look for more ways to utilize and differentiate their tab or reticule systems regardless.