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Solo Play vs Group Play Only Argument
rpgthegreat
Member Posts: 31
There are always huge arguments on this. You generally have 3 groups in this argument, those that want no soloing what-so-ever, those that want you to be able to solo the entire game except maybe some dungeons and raids, and those that don't mind soloing, but only if it rewards you drastically less. (1/4 xp rate, crappy rewards, way less gold, etc)
The problem with no soloing: The first month of the game, this works fine, there are plenty of people your level, you meet up with people, you accomplish great things and have great fun. A few months later, you decide to create a new class, but none of your friends want to start over. You have to find new people to group with. The dungeons are ghost lands. The areas are empty or don't have enough people/ the right classes to create a group capable of handling the content. You get bored and quit.
There is also the scenario where you play the game with a group of friends and something comes up and your tank friend quits the game or becomes too busy in real live to play often. You end up playing less and less until finally you just quit.
If the game requires you to have a full group of 5 or 6 people to complete the content, then you will have 15 people in the area and a single group doing content. The other 10 people are shouting looking for a tank or healer and can't find one. After looking for 30 minutes, people start to log off. An hour later, a tank comes online looking for group, but now there are no healers.
The problem with soloing everything but dungeons and raids: This is the way most games are structured now. The problem with this is that because you can get max level without ever grouping, very few people ever take the time to find a group. This means it is harder for the people who actually DO want to group to find one. Also, it is usually more efficient to solo grind than it is to group. The chat/community is mostly dead and people stop playing the game because they got bored of the repetition.
The problem with crappy soloing: This is a solution that usually gets put into games initially, and then gets replaced by the solo everything. The reason it gets replaced is because it does not work. Ever. People usually would love to group, but either don't have the time or can't find one. This leads them to solo grind while they wait for one or during their 30 minute time slot they have available to play. While they solo, they get no gear upgrades(it is all crap), they get almost no currency, and they level so slowly that they suddenly realize that it is pointless to solo. So, the people with 30 minute time slots only play on days when they have a 2 to 3 hour time slot and that becomes so unoften that they just lose interest in the game, and people that get frustrated with finding groups stop playing the game because they realize that they are not "playing" anything, they are waiting.
A Possible Solution: This is a variation of the solo to max level choice. Definately have dungeons and raid content that require a full group of 5 or 6 to complete that has the best gear and the fastest xp gain. However, on normaly questing content require a small group. This is a group of 2 or 3 players depending on their classes. Normal gameplay (this means non dungeon or raid content) should be able to be completed without the holy trinity. You should be able to complete it with two mages or a rogue and a warrior, or a healer and anything else. With the right class combos it should be easy for two people. For the wrong class combos it should be more difficult but still doable. Two healers should take longer, and two rogues should have a harder time as one can not attack from behind.
This solution still requires you to group with at least one other person (preferably three total people for maximum efficiency), but does not require the holy trinity and 6 full people.
What are your thoughts everyone?
Comments
Theres no question that soloing should take a back seat to group play in terms of rewards. Anyone that played EQ classic knows that the community made the game, and the limited solo play encouraged grouping and created the community.
Community makes an MMO come alive, and thats one of the major elements thats been missing from MMOs since Everquest.
THey can also always takea page out of CoH book.
Allow temporary boosts in lvls so lowbies can group for open world content with higher levels (or vice versa)
it worked really well, you could always find a few people to group with no matter what map you were on.
if EQN actually delivers a game that requires grouping to achieve anythign of importance I will buy it. If not its wildstar all the way for me.
Are you sure everyone got that memo?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm sure everyone that played Everquest that also played ANY 5 MMOs from the last decade that wasn't a braindead fetus got it.
The best way to confront soloing is how to approach the topic of instant gratification. In original Everquest there was very little to no instant gratification. In today's market, it's expected in most games. People want to see progress. It's how EQNext handles showing the players that level of progress that will define how people want to handle grouping and soloing. Or even how they will get players to expect a slow leveling process if that is what they are doing.
In most current MMO's, you can get instant gratification via soloing, sometimes to extremes. In some games it proves to be the path of least resistance, and who doesn't like to grind/quest/progress at their own rate, be it gradually over days with only minimal play time, or heavy and deep sessions of play time.
I for one, think the idea of instant gratification to be a problem, but I also know that it is not going anywhere. It's here to stay, no matter how much I snub my nose at the concept.
In original EQ, soloing was an art form. Some people understood it, some people preferred it and to some (Necro's/druids/Wizards and some mages), it in fact, was the path of least resistance. I solo'd a shaman, very slow and tedious at times, but being able to see what I could solo and where and how I messed up the last time and altering my tactics accordingly, I think made me a better player. I took that knowledge and led a top of the server guild in WoW for almost two years in Vanilla (Before the wiki's and Youtube posted the tactics). I was able to quickly and easily find out boss tactics and figure out the best method of beating them.
But it took time and patience, something that many of today's MMO players lack. Personally I would prefer if games went back to not allowing stats added to items until almost or near max level, but imagine the outcry the game's forums would experience when a game had the nerve to not mimic what is on the market in terms of progression standards.
What we need in terms of soloing and grouping is a reason to do them. We had that reason once. We need a game that will change the way players look at the system. I'm not saying EQNext will be that game, but hey, here's to hoping.
If you can Solo in EQNext, they need to make it challenging. The player needs to feel a rush of excitement and danger knowing that any mistake will end badly for them, and there needs to be a penalty for making that mistake, and not just summoning your corpse and rushing back to the monster.
If they want to enforce grouping, they need to make it the path of least resistance like how EQ1 was and currently is (at max level). Players need to feel that instant gratification when they group, it will enforce it and people will make those online friends, they will get those items easier and they will progress faster.
And, IMHO, the best way to handle the tank/healer/dps looking for group, is to have a skill base leveling system, much like SWG or maybe even Rift. Where a role can be filled by any class. The roles are still there, the holy trinity is still in effect, but there are many options on how to achieve the trinity. I would imagine a SWG type skill based leveling system put into a game like EQNext would allow more the ultimate in specializing a character and furthering immersion to a new level.
Actually, I played EQ1 for years and loved it. If you know anything about the game, you know that a druid, necro, wizard, bard, enchanter could solo more efficiently than a group or at least at equal efficiency. However, if you were one of those classes, you could get KEI immediately and set off to get xp rather than have to wait for 30 minutes to find a group. If you only had an hour or two to play, soloing was actually MORE efficient than grouping.
I was in smaller guilds back in EQ1, and the guilds I was in usually had cliques that always played together so, grouping with guildies did not happen very often. I had to find a random group which did not go very well often. It made things worse because my main was a druid and people did not like druids as main healers. The holy trinity was warrior/paladin/shadow knight and Clerc and enchanter/shaman/bard The rest of the group was dps fill. However, the druid was not wanted for heals except for a last resort, and it was not wanted for damage except for last resort. It turned out to be just not wanted, so I soloed only and leveled very quickly, although experienced very little of the game. I then set out to play the game with a cleric to get groups easier, but by then I could find no one to group with to level so I just lost interest.
Honestly, EQ1 had some great things about it and some absolutely crappy things about it. When it came out and for the next few years, it was amazing. Now, the only reason people play it is because friends play it or out of nostalgia.
In my opinion, Vanguard has most of the great things about EQ without a lot of the bad things. It is probably closest to being a great MMO. However, it does have downsides. It is very difficult to find a group to do dungeons as the game has a low population, and every class can solo to max level. That and the lag problems/bugs prevent groups from happening. The thing I love about it is the small group quests. Quests intended for 2 or 3 people(which 4 or 5 classes can actually solo easily). Of course, Disciples can solo full on group content, but that is an imbalance they need to fix.
Thank you. I wasn't sure whether you were simply not familiar with MMOs or just another EQ flagellate that thinks EQ is the only thing that existed pre-WOW. You've now cleared that up.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Instant gratification is definitely a problem. Completing a solo quest in 5 minutes and getting gear equal or almost equal to a dungeon boss mob drop is retarded. Now, if that solo quest had many, many parts, was difficult, and took hours and hours to complete, then it definitely should be just as good as a boss mob drop that only takes 2 hours to get but requires a full group. Remember, just because you are in a group does not mean it is harder than soloing. It just means that you waited 30 minutes to an hour to get one formed and everyone to arrive at the dungeon/quest area.
I think not having stats on items until max level would be a massive mistake. The problem is not the stats themselves, but how easily obtained gear with stats is. Remember in EQ1, gear with stats on it was uncommon drops from select camps. Really good gear was rare or took a rare spawn. In EQ2, Wow, and Vanguard, every single quest rewards you with great gear with stats on it and you can find epic gear randomly dropping from random rats. That should not ever happen. Loot tables should be carefully managed. If you have as much gear dropping as vanguard, eq2, and wow then yes, that would be impossible. However, if only dungeon boss mobs, rare spawns, and some quest chains dropped gear with stats on it then it would not be a problem. You no longer replace gear every 10 minutes with a piece of gear with 11 stamina instead of 10 stamina by lvl 5. This way, you could potentially be lvl 20 and have no gear with stats on it.
I definitely agree with hybridizing classes enough that any group combinations can do normal content. However, dungeons and raids need to be much harder and require the best group combo possible. You should not be able to have a group of 3 dps and 2 healers destroying dungeons.
The issue as I see it is that while group play always looks and sounds great on paper in actuality true group play only seems to appeal to a very small percent of players.
In todays "fast food gamer" mentality players just want to use some "group finder tool" sit in a queue, then silently and unsocially race through the related group content/instace/whatever only to drop group and move onto to the next "group obstacle"
Games tend to pidgeon hole players into forced group scenarios that appear no one wants to actually do, it's just a means to an end, for some drop/token/achievement, when all anyone wants to do is solo...
This is my impression based on many years of MMO gaming where the community has devolved into drones... the (I hate to use this word due to confusion) social aspect of games are lost... Games like EQ (original) really nailed this concept down and people were happy to be social, help one another out, and interact with one another...
Auction hoouses, group finders, instances, achievements, etc all contributed to this "my world" mentality and everyone else is just a necessary inconvenience to meet ones own personal goals...
I hope for the sake of nostalgia that EQNext does stay more true to it's origins where the game does in fact (key word here) inspire players to want to work together and be social to achieve some monumental common good rather than just checking off boxes in some achievement list. SOE so far has one of the best track records with this, with EQ, SWG, and (although just a publisher) Vanguard... EQ2 missed this mark a bit, lets hope EQN nails it!
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
You do realize you are posting on MMORPG.com forums, right? And that the MM in MMO stands for massive MULTIPLAYER?
Maybe I should go troll single player RPG forums and tell them how stupid they are for liking games that only require 1 person to beat.
This brings me to another topic, quest rewards:
I agree with quests rewarding xp, and gold. Only a very few quests however should reward gear. Gear should be something rewarded by accomplishing great achievements like completing a difficult and long quest chain or defeating the boss of a dungeon. It should never be random, and it should never ever be given for completing a 10 minute kill 20 spiders quest. If gear was this rare, then you could recognize how good of gear someone had by how they looked instead of having to inspect them.
This would also make more good gear craftable and make crafting professions worth it. Think about it, right now people don't bother crafting because instead of taking 50 hours to get their crafting to a high enough level to make usable gear, they could be 10 levels higher with greens from quest drops that are better than anything they could craft anyways. However, if crafted gear was good and required components from adventuring then it would definitely be worth it.
Imagine this scenario: In order to craft the lvl 20 boots with 10 strength and 10 stamina, you not only have to have the normal crafting ingrediants such as iron ore, coal, wolf skin, etc., but you also have to have a magical component for the stats. Maybe it is essence of boar that can only be obtained by killing the boar king. This would be great gear that most people would love to have at that level since they have very few other ways of getting gear, and would require cooperation between crafters and adventurers or a reason to level both.
I honestly believe that if EQNext goes the solo-unfriendly route and forces grouping then it will fail without a robust cross-server LFG tool. You really cannot expect gamers in today's gaming environment to be forced to sit around and spam chat for groups for hours before they can experience the game. It would be beyond simply poor design to do so.
I would absolutely love to return to Norath but if it is going to be loaded with features designed specifically to waste my time and ration my fun, there is no way I am playing. It's that simple.
One big problem I see with a game that is filled with soloable content to max level is that at max level you're usually expected to group up to continue progressing. But how are you really supposed to learn your role in a group if they make it so easy to level to max solo you never have to?
Happened to me in Rift. Duoed or soloed all the way to 50 doing rifts and quests, never had to group or felt the need to because it was so quick and easy to level. Max level hits and...now what? Did a few dungeons, got stuck with some dungeon rushers and flat out jerks because I was just starting to actually learn my class at max level.
I much prefer to be "forced" to group up and learn my class and learn my group roles at an earlier level, when you're supposed to be a bit noobish yet and it's more accepted than to have to learn on the fly at max with all your abilities unlocked already.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
Lol, cross server LFG tool.
This game is open world, not instanced. I'm sure there will be LFG tools, but if you want to log in and have a dialog that immediately groups you and teleports you around the world, you should probably just download Neverwinter. Its free to play.
I'm looking for about a 60% group, 40% solo content split. I don't want to never be able to do solo content, but I want to have a good community and having a lot of group play helps make that happen. All dungeons and raids should be group play of course, but I like to see multi step questing as well where some aspects are able to be done solo, but other parts must be done in a group. I also like seeing a lot of xp between levels and xp bonuses from doing groups, it's a good way to promote it.
Not all who wander are lost...
That is actually a horrible example you used. The MM in MMORPG means that there are a massive amount of people playing in the same server as you. You can interact with them and play with them. It does not require you to play with them and not everyone chooses to do so. Just because you prefer grouping and would love to does not mean that everyone wants it to be group or nothing. There are many reasons why groups are not always possible: 30 minutes to an hour play time, dead zones, holy trinity class needed but not online. In EQ1, there is quite a bit of content I never saw not because I did not want to get a group to do it, but because in the years of time I played, I was never able to find a group to do it. In EQ1, all groups went to specific areas and that is all that they did. The only way you could go where you wanted was if you had a guild and enough friends to group with you. If you were in a smaller guild or not near their levels then you were SOL.
Also, you know how many single player RPGs there are that have tons of people wanted to play the game Co-op with others? Most of them.
Everquest's system of having rare named mobs drop certain items which was also carried over to just about every other MMO since then, was a good one. If items with stats drop, have the mobs spawn like in Everquest, where you actually had to camp the area and hope that the next spawn would bless you with that rare chance of it being the named. Make people who wish to solo have to work for their items. Make it achievable in game, but don't spoon feed items either.
Having a system like SWG, where you had 4 primary classes and then which skill trees you took determined what sub-classes you could then take, would do wonders for a game like Everquest and open options for some very in depths levels of customization. I still have very fond memories of my Smuggler/Pistoleer/Teras Kasi Master. it wasn't the best, but it certainly was fun and you know what, I designed it, not some random wiki or forums telling me to spec that way to maximize dps. It was fun to experiment with class ideas.
And who wouldn't want a Shaman/Monk/Beastlord Specializing in Conjuration and Evasion? Yes, please!
Please, no. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks a system like that completely kills class individuality in an MMO.
Finding a balance between solo and group play is the key element. Solo play should be available, but dangerous and not trivial.
I would prefer 60% group, and 40% Duo content. Not everyone always has time to find or be in groups, but grouping up with one or two more people is a great alternative. You are still social, and you still doing content too hard to do by yourself, but you do not have the hour of waiting for a spot to become available in a grouping spot.
The players should be individuals. SWG allowed you to take bits and pieces from 32 different classes. You could only take a maximum of 3 Expert classes and only master 1 and maybe 2 if you worked hard to balance your skills, the classes were still very unique.
Already looking for ways to speed up leveling... getting to end game the quickest... gearing up the quickest... I can already tell EQNext is going to be swallowed up by the locusts in 2 weeks and then bore of the game in 3 months.
Peoples mindsets are all wrong for MMOs... that's why they've been failing... it's been nothing but get this right freaking now or don't bother playing at all.
Add it to the heap of games that occupy your attention for a mere few weeks.
Yep, you said it.
MMORPGS have become independent virtual pissing contests where everyone can log into a multiplayer game to see who can individually piss the farthest using their accomplishments in trivial solo content to judge their flow and distance.
I definitely agree with this post. However, the only problem with rare spawns is that there is no skill involved in it. It is either random chance to be up or hours of grinding waiting. Not to mention it also causes arguments. If you had been camping an area for 4 hours waiting for a rare spawn to appear and when it finally does someone who was there for 2 minutes steals the kill from you, you should be rightfully pissed. The best way to fix this is reward skill, not patience.
You can have events in the world. You go into a room and an event starts and belongs to you or your group. If you complete the event, you can not do it again for an hour, or a day, or whatever time limit they want to set. The event can be scripted and have waves of mobs trying to kill you, or a scripted boss fight, or whatever they want. They can restrict the event to a group, a single person, or two people and set the reward based upon difficulty.
Exactly.
Theres no hope for this genre as long as developers are listening to the dribble of the modern brainwashed WoW fan.
Taking away soloing completely would be a mistake, sometimes I and many with me logs on at odd hours with few online, and some areas will be hard to find groups for after a few months since they will be close to empty.
My suggestion: Allow soloplay in the open world but just make it hard. Since it will be faster and easier to play in group you will encourage social gameplay but people can still solo even if people who play badly will be forced to become better or group.
Also make dungeons more rewarding than the open world as it used to be, in most games today it is actually faster to solo rat killing quests to level up, and easier and even in far too many games as rewarding or better. You should gain XP 3 times as fast in a dungeon as in the open world. People tend to be lazy and greedy, reward people for socializing. And it would lessen the number of players at max level who have no clue how to play in groups.
A game should reward players for socializing but it should never force them. MMOs needs more choices, not fewer.
I don't particularly care for OPs idea with 3 player groups unless the game actually is classless (maybe it is, I have not logged in much lately and could have missed that information). Trinity combat is best with 6 players but acceptable with 5. Less just isn't fun and with more like in some larger raids I kinda feel that a new combat mechanic would be more fun, maybe something closer to GW2 or something completely new.