my only real issue with Warhammer was the combat.... it felt terrible and i never could stay with the game because of it.
Another thought; people said EVE was a niche game, but now its the 2nd largest western MMO by subscribers 500k ish and the game is 10 years old! If CCP can do it in space, someone can make it happen in a fantasy setting.
Does it stand a chance? The original DAOC is still going and most players in that game and other MMO games that have PVP are waiting for this game. DAOC had the best PVP system ever for a fantasy MMO.
My only mistake as far as Camelot Unchained was not getting on the badwagon early enough to pay to get into the BETA. I hope there is plenty of room for those who did not Kickstart to get into the BETA so i can.
This game may even be a WoW killer. Many in WoW are waiting for something fresh and that has real PvP. Most MMO's do not have good if any PvP. This game IS pvp.
Nirrtix ALPHAs: -Pantheon -Shroud of the Avatar -Camelot Unchained BETAs: -World of Warcraft -City of Heroes -Star Wars Galaxies -Saga of Ryzom -Homeworld -Starcraft II -Warcraft III -Hearthstone -Star Wars The Old Republic -Vanguard Saga of Heroes
I hope CU will succeed. We don't have too many PvP focused games that aren't full loot (which tends to lead into a very degenerate player base). TESO will have "RvR" as a side dish, much like GW2 does, but the game and its development will forever revolve around the masses of PvE players, just like GW2 does.
I am very interested in trying CU myself, but I fear it will have an archaic combat system with tab targeting and hotkey spam. I just can't stand those any more, after being spoiled by TERA's and GW2's active combat systems (followed probably by EQNext and TESO next year).
As much as I like Elder Scrolls lore I am avoiding Elder Scrolls online du to the simple fact it is Multiplatform That will give others a clear advantage in PvP and make the game suck.
Nirrtix ALPHAs: -Pantheon -Shroud of the Avatar -Camelot Unchained BETAs: -World of Warcraft -City of Heroes -Star Wars Galaxies -Saga of Ryzom -Homeworld -Starcraft II -Warcraft III -Hearthstone -Star Wars The Old Republic -Vanguard Saga of Heroes
It is impossible to know, if somebody releases a new type of MMO that totally revolutionizes gameplay in way that we have never seen before it would make traditional MMORPGs seem archaic and a lot less desirable.
CU is based on the current MMORPG systems, classes, combat involving HP/mana pools etc..
Can you imagine a MMORPG where combat didn't revolve around a concept of having a defined HP pool, and empty HP pool = dead player, every single game uses this old "math" system.
Yeah that would be a revolutionary system, eliminating pre-defined health and energy pools.
Bottom line it stands a chance unless something done much better comes out before CU launches.
How would you know for sure someone did that better before CU launches. There probably will not be many who are in BETA who have played this other game. Besides that many will play CU just because it is CU. EA made a HUGE mistake making Warhammer instead of DAOC 2.
Nirrtix ALPHAs: -Pantheon -Shroud of the Avatar -Camelot Unchained BETAs: -World of Warcraft -City of Heroes -Star Wars Galaxies -Saga of Ryzom -Homeworld -Starcraft II -Warcraft III -Hearthstone -Star Wars The Old Republic -Vanguard Saga of Heroes
If you mean stand a chance at becoming popular with the MMO community? The answer is no.
If you mean stand a chance to win over its target small audience? The answer is maybe.
And its maybe because it couldn't even win over half the DaoC crowd which was split between it and TESO...then again, TESO lost quite a bit of support over the last 6 months so...better chance of doing it now, not because CU improved, but because TESO got worse.
You are forgetting though it may have won over half the died hard DAOC players who have invest tons of time in the game. It was no different in EQ1 when EQ2 came out. Some players are so invested in the game they do not want to leave.
The question is how many players who left DAOC plan to come to CU. I am one and I will gladly join the ranks in CU. I am one of the many who have been begging for years for EA to support this project. Instead they made Warhammer, which sucked.
Nirrtix ALPHAs: -Pantheon -Shroud of the Avatar -Camelot Unchained BETAs: -World of Warcraft -City of Heroes -Star Wars Galaxies -Saga of Ryzom -Homeworld -Starcraft II -Warcraft III -Hearthstone -Star Wars The Old Republic -Vanguard Saga of Heroes
I remember when this was the topic of discussion for DOAC on the VN boards.
Small upstart game company couldn’t compete with EQ, AC or the upcoming WOW.
Well he did then and he will again, two words Mark Jacobs.
Yes this will be an old school, hard core game with limited appeal but enough appeal to make a profit and give us ol’e schoolers one hell of a ride.
Well said. This is what I have been looking for for years. No more carebear crap MMO's I want something hard where you feel like you accomplished something. That is one reason I keep returning to EvE, the only problem is unless you have played Eve forever, it jsut is not the same.
Nirrtix ALPHAs: -Pantheon -Shroud of the Avatar -Camelot Unchained BETAs: -World of Warcraft -City of Heroes -Star Wars Galaxies -Saga of Ryzom -Homeworld -Starcraft II -Warcraft III -Hearthstone -Star Wars The Old Republic -Vanguard Saga of Heroes
It absolutely stands a chance. MMO's are not that expensive to maintain. Many popular past MMO's maintain excellent profitability with 100-150k subscribers. I see no reason why CU won't be able to maintain that as long as they release a generally bug free MMO.
Since he isnt beholden to investors, he doesn't have to worry about making money hand over fist, so simply turning a profit is enough. Since he is making this game to target a very specific core audience of gamers, these types are likely to stay subbed to games for years on end.
So, again, yes, very solid chance.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
I am not a fan of this game and will never play it. I have 0 interest in it beyond what I see posted here from time to time....but I think it has good ideas for an mmo and if it can make them work it will do very well.
I doubt it will ever become huge but it doesn't need to be to be a good game.
It will be interesting to see what the MMO climate is like in 2015. This next wave of MMOs coming out will likely affect said climate, and aside from the big boys, there are a number of other ambitious games from smaller, independent devs targeting niches as well. CU will be born into this generation, for better or worse, and the ways in which it brands itself as a viable alternative to these things will play a big part in expanding the number beyond the backers.
I think it has a real chance to do so if CSE sticks to its guns and does not compromise in the face of potentially changing trends in the 2015 MMO market. Strength of vision is going to be important. There won't be tons of advertising dollars (presumably) and the concept is a bit nuanced and catered to enthusiasts to be able to rely on the strength of its branding. It needs to hit hard, fast, and let its differences speak for themselves out of the gate. Quite like a single spear tipped with metal forged from the last bit of meteoric ore descended from worlds away that is hurled over the heads of a massive army, seeking the heart of an armored emperor, this game needs to know it's target and release with confidence, lest it harmlessly disappear into the multitudinous melee that precedes it.
Ok that was a bit much, but you know what I mean. I think.
Nope. This is one of those games that you can tell will fail before it is even made. Having said that I might actually play it, I just don't expect it to live long.
DAOC was never expected to fail, the MMORPG genre was way too infant to expect any new one to fail. Now you actually have to make a decent game to not fail and the concept of RvR just isn't enough unless you somehow wrap it into the PvE content as well.
I am not a fan of this game and will never play it. I have 0 interest in it beyond what I see posted here from time to time....but I think it has good ideas for an mmo and if it can make them work it will do very well.
I doubt it will ever become huge but it doesn't need to be to be a good game.
I am not sure why you have no interest in this game if it has ideas you like.
A game does not have to be huge to be a good game. Look at World of Warcraft. That is a HUGE game even now, yet it has been on a downturn since 2010 according to most players. Other games have been a success even though they are or were never near that big and never have been in comparison to WoW. Some examples are Ultima Online and Everquest (it used to be the biggest, but was never at the scope of WoW.)
Put simply size of the game is not a huge deal as long as there are enough players to populate the servers and for City State Entertainment to make enough profit to have reason to keep the game going and keep players entertained. Considering that the Devs are some of the best in the industry I have confidence in this game.
By the way, by your icon I assume you p[lay or like Star Wars the Old Republic, you do know most consider that a failed MMORPG. They spent like half a billion dollars making that game and in less than 2 years it is free to play. That speaks volumes of your MMORPG judgement in my opinion.
Nirrtix ALPHAs: -Pantheon -Shroud of the Avatar -Camelot Unchained BETAs: -World of Warcraft -City of Heroes -Star Wars Galaxies -Saga of Ryzom -Homeworld -Starcraft II -Warcraft III -Hearthstone -Star Wars The Old Republic -Vanguard Saga of Heroes
Nope. This is one of those games that you can tell will fail before it is even made. Having said that I might actually play it, I just don't expect it to live long.
DAOC was never expected to fail, the MMORPG genre was way too infant to expect any new one to fail. Now you actually have to make a decent game to not fail and the concept of RvR just isn't enough unless you somehow wrap it into the PvE content as well.
I am not familiar weather or not DAOC was expected to fail, but the devs that worked on it have said they considered themselves the underdog, so they must have had some doubts.
As to the competitiveness of this game, I think you are completly wrong. Sure it is in a niche market of Fantasy PvP, but that means little. I know tons of people in WoW who are waiting for this game, and since most games lack a good PvP system or any at all, this niche is filled well. Even games that had good PvP like WoW have since ruined it with poor balancing and extreme game mechanic changes.
If you are worried about the changed that messed up DAOC in some people's minds. Most of those changes were forced by EA. That is why it is good that City State Entertainment is an indy. They are beholden to no one.
As to your last comment about a game being purely about RvR I am unsure if they intend to make it similar to DAOC or purly RvR. I will say this though. If it is like DAOC it will work fine. If it is not, I have faith that they will do it right. The devs making this game are not noobs.
Nirrtix ALPHAs: -Pantheon -Shroud of the Avatar -Camelot Unchained BETAs: -World of Warcraft -City of Heroes -Star Wars Galaxies -Saga of Ryzom -Homeworld -Starcraft II -Warcraft III -Hearthstone -Star Wars The Old Republic -Vanguard Saga of Heroes
It was the niche crowd that funded the game in the first place, so unless another MMO does the the whole "no PvE, full-on RvR, crafting MMO" really damn well in the meantime, i think its safe to say that the niche crowd will keep on supporting CU.
The fact they scored 2.2 mil on less than 15k investors shows how dedicated the "hard core" players will be to this game.
It's not going to be revolutionary.... It's not going to be genera defining and it's not trying to be.
It's taking a single concept.... a 3 faction open world RvR game. Throwing out all of he BS and building ALL of the game systems, the engine, the game play, and the economy AROUND RvR. That's what's going to make this game different and THAT's what's going to make it awesome.
There is the question of funding. They are sitting at, what, 5.2 million with the KS, Mark's own money, and another unnamed investor? That is not a lot of money, even when you cut out time/money-intensive elements like PVE. The gameworld still has to be large and visually-engaging, and the sandbox elements have to be deep and fleshed-out enough to facilitate varied gameplay. Besides, it's not as if there is NO PVE, just no PVE drops/loot. The Depths still has some PVE elements, and from what CSE has said about it, it will be no tacked-on genero-dungeon.
What I am wondering is this: Should the 5+mil not prove enough to see their vision through to fruition, will they try to secure further funding, either internally or externally, or scale back the finished product and hope to add the cut elements through updates?
I very much hope that they can deliver the product they want to with the budget they have.
I think without having PvE in the game, it gives them time to create the environments, characters, housing, crafting, keeps and RvR areas and mechanics. They have time to create a WORLD.
They don't have to worry with creating quests, they don't have to have several cities full of useless Npc's. They will only have to balance one thing, PvP. They have plenty of time to create a very good RvR game imo.
They don't have huge offices and don't spend money frivolously, you need only look back at DAOC from day 1 to see how Mark is with his game and money toward it.
Originally posted by ThomasN7 Anyone's guess right now. They don't even have anything playable to show yet.
Everything I have seen till now are animations and people talking about how good it will be.
I certainly hope it will be as good as everyone says, but what do you expect? It fills a void that a lot of PvPers have been looking for, so naturally they will be excited about it. Also, they kickstarted the game before they began development so obviously they don't have full fledged gameplay to show yet.
Just keep your word and don't try to attract peeps to this game that won't belong in it and everything should be fine.
QFT.
It's should be apparently to all the MMO makersby now that you can't please everyone. If your making a game for the hardcore RVR's and crafters of the world don't water our game down with PVE raiding crap. Leave the PVEer's of the world in WoW. We'll be better off without them.
I think MJ's got the right of it. He said he'd be happy with 100k happy subscribers and would consider 200k a great victory. That's a good goal. Leave the masses to their grindfests and give us some old school PVP action with a crafting based economy.
x100000
Please no lame PVE raiding.
That is all about no skill, and wanting to win because you have better gear, rather than because you are a better player.
we are talking about a real professional serious Realm V Realm like gw2 WvW except Arenanet is casual about WvW and focus PvE.
when this one is launched if any guild still play gw2 they will probably ship over to this one.
the only worry part is the money part they don't look like to have a lot of cash other games live on the PvE players buying stuffs from market or monthly this gonna be more professional lots of league dunno where they gonna get cash from.
If they're capable and willing to leave behind everything we've come to expect from "modern" fantasy MMORPG and go back to what DAoC truly was, it'll do great. It may never have the biggest following but that doesn't matter, as long as the player base is healthy it's fine. In fact you don't WANT to try and appeal to everyone because that almost always goes wrong and generally means you get a terrible product.
Comments
my only real issue with Warhammer was the combat.... it felt terrible and i never could stay with the game because of it.
Another thought; people said EVE was a niche game, but now its the 2nd largest western MMO by subscribers 500k ish and the game is 10 years old! If CCP can do it in space, someone can make it happen in a fantasy setting.
E.g. daoc, planetside 1 & 2, war after about 6 months
The worst ones just work as gear farming spots for pveers e.g. tsw, rift, swtor
Concurrent players both gw2, ps2 & even swtor have more.
OP
Knowing who's in charge should answer the question you asked.
Hint...he directed WAR and DAOC
Does it stand a chance? The original DAOC is still going and most players in that game and other MMO games that have PVP are waiting for this game. DAOC had the best PVP system ever for a fantasy MMO.
My only mistake as far as Camelot Unchained was not getting on the badwagon early enough to pay to get into the BETA. I hope there is plenty of room for those who did not Kickstart to get into the BETA so i can.
This game may even be a WoW killer. Many in WoW are waiting for something fresh and that has real PvP. Most MMO's do not have good if any PvP. This game IS pvp.
Nirrtix
ALPHAs:
-Pantheon
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Camelot Unchained
BETAs:
-World of Warcraft
-City of Heroes
-Star Wars Galaxies
-Saga of Ryzom
-Homeworld
-Starcraft II
-Warcraft III
-Hearthstone
-Star Wars The Old Republic
-Vanguard Saga of Heroes
As much as I like Elder Scrolls lore I am avoiding Elder Scrolls online du to the simple fact it is Multiplatform That will give others a clear advantage in PvP and make the game suck.
Nirrtix
ALPHAs:
-Pantheon
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Camelot Unchained
BETAs:
-World of Warcraft
-City of Heroes
-Star Wars Galaxies
-Saga of Ryzom
-Homeworld
-Starcraft II
-Warcraft III
-Hearthstone
-Star Wars The Old Republic
-Vanguard Saga of Heroes
How would you know for sure someone did that better before CU launches. There probably will not be many who are in BETA who have played this other game. Besides that many will play CU just because it is CU. EA made a HUGE mistake making Warhammer instead of DAOC 2.
Nirrtix
ALPHAs:
-Pantheon
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Camelot Unchained
BETAs:
-World of Warcraft
-City of Heroes
-Star Wars Galaxies
-Saga of Ryzom
-Homeworld
-Starcraft II
-Warcraft III
-Hearthstone
-Star Wars The Old Republic
-Vanguard Saga of Heroes
You are forgetting though it may have won over half the died hard DAOC players who have invest tons of time in the game. It was no different in EQ1 when EQ2 came out. Some players are so invested in the game they do not want to leave.
The question is how many players who left DAOC plan to come to CU. I am one and I will gladly join the ranks in CU. I am one of the many who have been begging for years for EA to support this project. Instead they made Warhammer, which sucked.
Nirrtix
ALPHAs:
-Pantheon
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Camelot Unchained
BETAs:
-World of Warcraft
-City of Heroes
-Star Wars Galaxies
-Saga of Ryzom
-Homeworld
-Starcraft II
-Warcraft III
-Hearthstone
-Star Wars The Old Republic
-Vanguard Saga of Heroes
Well said. This is what I have been looking for for years. No more carebear crap MMO's I want something hard where you feel like you accomplished something. That is one reason I keep returning to EvE, the only problem is unless you have played Eve forever, it jsut is not the same.
Nirrtix
ALPHAs:
-Pantheon
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Camelot Unchained
BETAs:
-World of Warcraft
-City of Heroes
-Star Wars Galaxies
-Saga of Ryzom
-Homeworld
-Starcraft II
-Warcraft III
-Hearthstone
-Star Wars The Old Republic
-Vanguard Saga of Heroes
It absolutely stands a chance. MMO's are not that expensive to maintain. Many popular past MMO's maintain excellent profitability with 100-150k subscribers. I see no reason why CU won't be able to maintain that as long as they release a generally bug free MMO.
Since he isnt beholden to investors, he doesn't have to worry about making money hand over fist, so simply turning a profit is enough. Since he is making this game to target a very specific core audience of gamers, these types are likely to stay subbed to games for years on end.
So, again, yes, very solid chance.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I am not a fan of this game and will never play it. I have 0 interest in it beyond what I see posted here from time to time....but I think it has good ideas for an mmo and if it can make them work it will do very well.
I doubt it will ever become huge but it doesn't need to be to be a good game.
It will be interesting to see what the MMO climate is like in 2015. This next wave of MMOs coming out will likely affect said climate, and aside from the big boys, there are a number of other ambitious games from smaller, independent devs targeting niches as well. CU will be born into this generation, for better or worse, and the ways in which it brands itself as a viable alternative to these things will play a big part in expanding the number beyond the backers.
I think it has a real chance to do so if CSE sticks to its guns and does not compromise in the face of potentially changing trends in the 2015 MMO market. Strength of vision is going to be important. There won't be tons of advertising dollars (presumably) and the concept is a bit nuanced and catered to enthusiasts to be able to rely on the strength of its branding. It needs to hit hard, fast, and let its differences speak for themselves out of the gate. Quite like a single spear tipped with metal forged from the last bit of meteoric ore descended from worlds away that is hurled over the heads of a massive army, seeking the heart of an armored emperor, this game needs to know it's target and release with confidence, lest it harmlessly disappear into the multitudinous melee that precedes it.
Ok that was a bit much, but you know what I mean. I think.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Nope. This is one of those games that you can tell will fail before it is even made. Having said that I might actually play it, I just don't expect it to live long.
DAOC was never expected to fail, the MMORPG genre was way too infant to expect any new one to fail. Now you actually have to make a decent game to not fail and the concept of RvR just isn't enough unless you somehow wrap it into the PvE content as well.
I am not sure why you have no interest in this game if it has ideas you like.
A game does not have to be huge to be a good game. Look at World of Warcraft. That is a HUGE game even now, yet it has been on a downturn since 2010 according to most players. Other games have been a success even though they are or were never near that big and never have been in comparison to WoW. Some examples are Ultima Online and Everquest (it used to be the biggest, but was never at the scope of WoW.)
Put simply size of the game is not a huge deal as long as there are enough players to populate the servers and for City State Entertainment to make enough profit to have reason to keep the game going and keep players entertained. Considering that the Devs are some of the best in the industry I have confidence in this game.
By the way, by your icon I assume you p[lay or like Star Wars the Old Republic, you do know most consider that a failed MMORPG. They spent like half a billion dollars making that game and in less than 2 years it is free to play. That speaks volumes of your MMORPG judgement in my opinion.
Nirrtix
ALPHAs:
-Pantheon
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Camelot Unchained
BETAs:
-World of Warcraft
-City of Heroes
-Star Wars Galaxies
-Saga of Ryzom
-Homeworld
-Starcraft II
-Warcraft III
-Hearthstone
-Star Wars The Old Republic
-Vanguard Saga of Heroes
I am not familiar weather or not DAOC was expected to fail, but the devs that worked on it have said they considered themselves the underdog, so they must have had some doubts.
As to the competitiveness of this game, I think you are completly wrong. Sure it is in a niche market of Fantasy PvP, but that means little. I know tons of people in WoW who are waiting for this game, and since most games lack a good PvP system or any at all, this niche is filled well. Even games that had good PvP like WoW have since ruined it with poor balancing and extreme game mechanic changes.
If you are worried about the changed that messed up DAOC in some people's minds. Most of those changes were forced by EA. That is why it is good that City State Entertainment is an indy. They are beholden to no one.
As to your last comment about a game being purely about RvR I am unsure if they intend to make it similar to DAOC or purly RvR. I will say this though. If it is like DAOC it will work fine. If it is not, I have faith that they will do it right. The devs making this game are not noobs.
Nirrtix
ALPHAs:
-Pantheon
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Camelot Unchained
BETAs:
-World of Warcraft
-City of Heroes
-Star Wars Galaxies
-Saga of Ryzom
-Homeworld
-Starcraft II
-Warcraft III
-Hearthstone
-Star Wars The Old Republic
-Vanguard Saga of Heroes
The fact they scored 2.2 mil on less than 15k investors shows how dedicated the "hard core" players will be to this game.
It's not going to be revolutionary.... It's not going to be genera defining and it's not trying to be.
It's taking a single concept.... a 3 faction open world RvR game. Throwing out all of he BS and building ALL of the game systems, the engine, the game play, and the economy AROUND RvR. That's what's going to make this game different and THAT's what's going to make it awesome.
There is the question of funding. They are sitting at, what, 5.2 million with the KS, Mark's own money, and another unnamed investor? That is not a lot of money, even when you cut out time/money-intensive elements like PVE. The gameworld still has to be large and visually-engaging, and the sandbox elements have to be deep and fleshed-out enough to facilitate varied gameplay. Besides, it's not as if there is NO PVE, just no PVE drops/loot. The Depths still has some PVE elements, and from what CSE has said about it, it will be no tacked-on genero-dungeon.
What I am wondering is this: Should the 5+mil not prove enough to see their vision through to fruition, will they try to secure further funding, either internally or externally, or scale back the finished product and hope to add the cut elements through updates?
I very much hope that they can deliver the product they want to with the budget they have.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
I think without having PvE in the game, it gives them time to create the environments, characters, housing, crafting, keeps and RvR areas and mechanics. They have time to create a WORLD.
They don't have to worry with creating quests, they don't have to have several cities full of useless Npc's. They will only have to balance one thing, PvP. They have plenty of time to create a very good RvR game imo.
They don't have huge offices and don't spend money frivolously, you need only look back at DAOC from day 1 to see how Mark is with his game and money toward it.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Everything I have seen till now are animations and people talking about how good it will be.
I certainly hope it will be as good as everyone says, but what do you expect? It fills a void that a lot of PvPers have been looking for, so naturally they will be excited about it. Also, they kickstarted the game before they began development so obviously they don't have full fledged gameplay to show yet.
x100000
Please no lame PVE raiding.
That is all about no skill, and wanting to win because you have better gear, rather than because you are a better player.
This game will be a real killer.
we are talking about a real professional serious Realm V Realm like gw2 WvW except Arenanet is casual about WvW and focus PvE.
when this one is launched if any guild still play gw2 they will probably ship over to this one.
the only worry part is the money part they don't look like to have a lot of cash other games live on the PvE players buying stuffs from market or monthly this gonna be more professional lots of league dunno where they gonna get cash from.
If they're capable and willing to leave behind everything we've come to expect from "modern" fantasy MMORPG and go back to what DAoC truly was, it'll do great. It may never have the biggest following but that doesn't matter, as long as the player base is healthy it's fine. In fact you don't WANT to try and appeal to everyone because that almost always goes wrong and generally means you get a terrible product.