Originally posted by Scot Let me tell him some history, MMO's already got a dumbing down in the 00's to conform to console players expectations. MMOs were made into solo games to attract the console player base. In the solo games market we saw this as well, PC games have become handcuffed to the design principles of console games. So it is not like we have not seen this before.
MMOs going console can only mean one thing, more dumbing down. The MMO genre is in dire straits, I am not sure that the games that start to come out after MMOs go console will even be worthy of the MMO name. Not yet, but once MMO's are established on consoles, once that is the norm. Then the name 'MMO' will become nothing more than a label applied to a game to bring in more players to the cash shop.
The only thing I see getting dumbed down is your ability to think rationally. You really think console gamers are to blame for dumbed down mmos? Really? You don't think its the hundreds of millions of pc owners who glob onto the multitude of mind numbing skinner blox games that get cranked out on the pc? Zynga, pop games, facebook shovelware garbage. That installed pc userbase of a couple billion casuals dumbed down mmos. Console gamers dont even play the same genres as pc gamers for the most part.
And its already been proven that a gamepad allows for just as many instant access commands as a screen full of toolbars. I know you're jaded. But this misplaced anger you have toward consoles is sad.
I am talking about a time before social media types came to dominate the internet, as you say the games played by those people have had a detrimental effect, I think on all gaming in fact whatever platform you use.
Before WoW, gaming companies were seeking ways to make their MMO's more popular. WoW showed them what to do, make their MMOs more like single player console RPG's. This was the design principle that was taken up, to widen appeal on the PC platform. If you were a person with both a PC and console who did not play MMO's all the better, maybe you would now try a MMO.
I don't have any misplaced anger, I did not call anyone on here dumbed down as you did me, perhaps it is you who need to open your collar more and take a deep breath? I think console players are capable of much more than they are given credit for, but the console market is designed as if console players need their hands held, they do not. And it is those design principles which were imposed on the PC.
Console players themselves have expressed concerns that their games have been getting dumbed down. When the now ex CEO of EA said "We want to make games even your mum can play", you can understand their concerns. Do a goggle on dumbing down console games, have a read.
In light of this it is no wonder that PC gamers are getting concerned that MMO's are going to become made in joint development for consoles.
I hope not, the entire reason I play MMOs is because they are more games designed for PCs and not consoles. I'm so sick of playing watered down versions of games that are released on multi platforms.
Meh the only MMOs that ever seem to "work" consoles are FPS. Classic MMO don't work out well unless they're designed specifically for the console, which has limited development of the game to the lowest common denominator (ie. FFXI).
Age of Conan and Final Fantasy XIV, to name two. If you really want to go far enough back, you could add EverQuest to that list, too. Remember that a lot of computers didn't even have a 3D graphics card back then.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Just got done in another thread debunking that theory. It is simple. A console game requires a simplex UI because it has to support the controller. Simplistic MMO's are something people play for a month or two and then move on to the next game. Hence no developer is going to spend much time on a MMO when their audience won't stick around long.
So yeah, you might see some console MMO's, but they will not be something to get excited about.
A MMO Renaissance? Pardon me while I chortle at such a suggestion.
You really need a PC to play a full blown MMO.
TESO (whatever the devs say, it's an MMO) ? EQN ( not said, but it's made by SOE, so yes it will be on PS4 ) ?
Age of Conan and Final Fantasy XIV, to name two. If you really want to go far enough back, you could add EverQuest to that list, too. Remember that a lot of computers didn't even have a 3D graphics card back then.
if they were designed for high end PCs than they would look like the Division or Planetside 2 and AoC wouldnt have had so little zones with so many loading in between.
Just got done in another thread debunking that theory. It is simple. A console game requires a simplex UI because it has to support the controller. Simplistic MMO's are something people play for a month or two and then move on to the next game. Hence no developer is going to spend much time on a MMO when their audience won't stick around long.
So yeah, you might see some console MMO's, but they will not be something to get excited about.
A MMO Renaissance? Pardon me while I chortle at such a suggestion.
You really need a PC to play a full blown MMO.
FFXIV is a full blown mmorpg, has more features than most mmorpgs like housing for one which even WoW doesnt, and you can play it on a PS3 if you want and thats a last gen console.
Originally posted by Tierless No, but kickstarter will.
Either could actually do it, kickstarter do have the potential to bring in fresh blood and good ideas while the console gamers are a huge untapped market for the genre.
The risk with console MMOs is however the same as with regular MMOs, that the devs will look too much on older successful games instead of trying to create something new and unique so you might be right about kickstarters.
I have some hopes about that Shadowrun kickstarter for example (not to be confused with the browser based crap).
What is clear anyways is that MMOs needs some new perspective, just remaking EQ or Wow just isn't enough anymore.
Age of Conan and Final Fantasy XIV, to name two. If you really want to go far enough back, you could add EverQuest to that list, too. Remember that a lot of computers didn't even have a 3D graphics card back then.
EQ2 and Vanguard was designed for high end computers as well. Meridian 59 really demanded a good internet connection at the time...
So, yeah, there have been MMOs for high end users in the past but most prefer to maximize potential players while saving some bucks at the same time.
FFXIV is a full blown mmorpg, has more features than most mmorpgs like housing for one which even WoW doesnt, and you can play it on a PS3 if you want and thats a last gen console.
Housing is not really a good example, many MMOs including UO had it... I actually have no clue why Wow didn't add it a long time ago.
But yeah, FF XIV isn't really simple and MMOs without keyboard does not mean the game must be easy or simple in itself.
All the talk about MMO's for high end PC's. There has been a drop of, increasingly you don't need a top end PC to run any new MMO. But that's the same for PC solo games, as PC Format pointed out recently PC hardware is still leaping ahead as it has since PC's began. But the architecture and power needed for PC games has not.
They do not go on to postulate why this is the case. I would put it to you that solo console games are holding the PC back. Gaming companies do not want to release games on the PC that cannot be easily converted into console versions. And when console games come to the PC they do not get upgraded to take advantage of the PC's superior specs.
To an extent has been the case since the divergence between consoles and PC gaming began. But the every increasing ties between gaming studios and console companies is making this more of an issue every year.
Originally posted by tkreep FFXIV is a full blown mmorpg, has more features than most mmorpgs like housing for one which even WoW doesnt, and you can play it on a PS3 if you want and thats a last gen console.
You can stop now.
Hardcore PC fans are going to willfully ignore FF14 because if they acknowledge it then they will have to admit that console MMOs are indeed viable without being "dumbed down".
Also, I hope that the next gen consoles does cause an MMO Renaissance. PCs have been the dominant platform for MMOs for the past 17 years and the genre is stagnating to the point of regression.
Originally posted by tkreep FFXIV is a full blown mmorpg, has more features than most mmorpgs like housing for one which even WoW doesnt, and you can play it on a PS3 if you want and thats a last gen console.
You can stop now.
Hardcore PC fans are going to willfully ignore FF14 because if they acknowledge it then they will have to admit that console MMOs are indeed viable without being "dumbed down".
Also, I hope that the next gen consoles does cause an MMO Renaissance. PCs have been the dominant platform for MMOs for the past 17 years and the genre is stagnating to the point of regression.
There is no reason technical reason that a console MMO cannot be the best MMO out there, it is the track record of console games that makes this unlikely. PC MMO's adopted bad design principles from console games, its unlikely more console based design is the answer.
Its interesting that MMO pundits recognise there is something wrong with the genre, take a look at this thread or the one "are MMO's too easy". But they are uncomfortable with the true reasons as to why the genre is having problems, instead they jump on every bandwagon that comes along thinking that will be the answer. Making MMO's more "sandbox" has been the big thing over the last year. Now consoles will save the genre. The easymode nature of MMO's a big issue, but it is just one of the problems that need to be addressed.
MMO's are not being designed to last, there are too many of them out there and they only use one template. Unless those issues are addressed nothing will get better. You can mix some sand in or put them on a new platform all you like, it will still be the same old story.
Originally posted by tkreep FFXIV is a full blown mmorpg, has more features than most mmorpgs like housing for one which even WoW doesnt, and you can play it on a PS3 if you want and thats a last gen console.
You can stop now.
Hardcore PC fans are going to willfully ignore FF14 because if they acknowledge it then they will have to admit that console MMOs are indeed viable without being "dumbed down".
Also, I hope that the next gen consoles does cause an MMO Renaissance. PCs have been the dominant platform for MMOs for the past 17 years and the genre is stagnating to the point of regression.
What is with this FFXIV nonsense. The number one major problem with FFXIV when it launched was the horrible interface. Exhibit A! Perfect example of why MMOs written for both platforms have major issues. Sometimes I really wonder if people who post here actually play the games they talk about or they just conveniently ignore any issues that conflict with their theme..
I had hope for your article when I saw, "After all, the console gaming experience has been a bit more streamlined (or ‘dumbed down’, if you prefer) this generation and that could certainly extend to MMOs if developers end up looking at console players as their primary audience." You touched on the very cause of MMO failures that I attribute to consoles.
This is an excerpt from what I started to write for Marks article on the Dumbing Down of MMOs, please enjoy. Consoles, and Console Gamers are the root cause of easy gaming. When Pugs form, the console gamer mentality takes over. Their hearts race, the speed of progression increases, they feel invulnerable. They stop for nothing, not story, not lore, and not environment. Now I am not talking about every console game or console gamer. I’m talking about the console games with less than 20 hours of game play, or game play sessions timed in minutes. Many console games are on-rails or employ major hand holding.
All because the game controller is an ultra-simplistic interface. Since a camera was removed from the standard configuration of a next gen console to save $100, I don’t expect them to add a keyboard anytime soon. Nor do I expect console gamers to be up to the challenge of a keyboard.
Now that most PC keyboards and mice are USB devices I see less of a hurdle to swapping these PC devices to a console if a multi-platform gamer wanted to. But why buy a game for a console and swap your keyboard and mouse if you could just as well buy the PC version of the game. But I do see developers making console exclusive MMOs that use K&M as the primary interface just to get PC gamers to switch platform focus. This I do see as the next trend. Do I see it leading to innovation? No. Innovation comes from the people making games, not the people selling games. If you can understand the difference.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Indeed, if you think a renaissance means you will sell more, then the new consoles will do just that. But they will not bring innovation, old school ethos, sandbox or for that matter anything else. They will bring more of the same to more players.
There are some major hurdles concerning a jump to a solid MMORPG developed for consoles. Gamers who are exclusively console gamers want a bit more of a "smash and grab" atmosphere in a game. These gamers needs should be considered, because the marketability of the game is key to it's survival. A solid MMORPG developed for a console needs to focus on the fact that it wants to bring console players to the MMORPG realm rather than bring MMORPG players from the PC to the console. Traditional PC MMORPG players will flock to a game that bursts into popularity quicker than console players will transition to a new genre of gaming.
Secondly, the ideal game would only utilize the controller for all aspects of the game. This means a couple things: 1. Easy to use skills and menus 2. Ability to communicate quickly using only the controller.
And so ideally we wouldn't see a need for massive numbers of skills, but a simple to use set that can be managed within the buttons on the shoulders and on the right hand face of the controller. The PS4 is moving in the correct direction with the touchpad, but that would need further development with a "swype"-like interface for quickly chatting in game between pulls ect...
Third, and most importantly, the game really, truly, needs to be next-gen. MMORPG Gamers have already been awed by immense communities, grinding quests, and massive beasts that take a horde of players to take down. What needs to be in a next-gen MMORPG is true fluidity. By that I mean outside the box thinking. Nothing is more boring than the same old have a class, have a crafting skill chosen from one of six, or the, that sword drops in such and such dungeon off such and such boss and every warrior has one because it's the best in the game. Players want a true uniqueness to their character and the only way to achieve this is through true randomness of drops ect... and some unthinkable number of options to play the game. Rather than grinding out levels with all my characters, maybe I'll take one and roll it to do one of over 100 different side roles given as an option. Players tend to want their character to be unique, and this would make that aspect be more likely.
Lastly, (this is a personal opinion) is that there must be a strong sense of community that is maintained throughout the life of the game. By this I mean a strong need to be in a group or "guild" of people you play with consistently. What ruined WoW for me was something most players delighted in. When dungeons went cross-server. Oh yes, it made grouping quicker and easier, but it ruined the community atmosphere I had grown to love. It made it so that you couldn't recruit the player you enjoyed a dungeon with, because that particular player wasn't from your server. As I said before, a total opinion, but one I strongly believe.
Comments
I am talking about a time before social media types came to dominate the internet, as you say the games played by those people have had a detrimental effect, I think on all gaming in fact whatever platform you use.
Before WoW, gaming companies were seeking ways to make their MMO's more popular. WoW showed them what to do, make their MMOs more like single player console RPG's. This was the design principle that was taken up, to widen appeal on the PC platform. If you were a person with both a PC and console who did not play MMO's all the better, maybe you would now try a MMO.
I don't have any misplaced anger, I did not call anyone on here dumbed down as you did me, perhaps it is you who need to open your collar more and take a deep breath? I think console players are capable of much more than they are given credit for, but the console market is designed as if console players need their hands held, they do not. And it is those design principles which were imposed on the PC.
Console players themselves have expressed concerns that their games have been getting dumbed down. When the now ex CEO of EA said "We want to make games even your mum can play", you can understand their concerns. Do a goggle on dumbing down console games, have a read.
In light of this it is no wonder that PC gamers are getting concerned that MMO's are going to become made in joint development for consoles.
A multi-game MMORPG community
http://www.impact-gaming.us/
Age of Conan and Final Fantasy XIV, to name two. If you really want to go far enough back, you could add EverQuest to that list, too. Remember that a lot of computers didn't even have a 3D graphics card back then.
the future :
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
TESO (whatever the devs say, it's an MMO) ? EQN ( not said, but it's made by SOE, so yes it will be on PS4 ) ?
Those will not be real MMOs ?
if they were designed for high end PCs than they would look like the Division or Planetside 2 and AoC wouldnt have had so little zones with so many loading in between.
FFXIV is a full blown mmorpg, has more features than most mmorpgs like housing for one which even WoW doesnt, and you can play it on a PS3 if you want and thats a last gen console.
Either could actually do it, kickstarter do have the potential to bring in fresh blood and good ideas while the console gamers are a huge untapped market for the genre.
The risk with console MMOs is however the same as with regular MMOs, that the devs will look too much on older successful games instead of trying to create something new and unique so you might be right about kickstarters.
I have some hopes about that Shadowrun kickstarter for example (not to be confused with the browser based crap).
What is clear anyways is that MMOs needs some new perspective, just remaking EQ or Wow just isn't enough anymore.
EQ2 and Vanguard was designed for high end computers as well. Meridian 59 really demanded a good internet connection at the time...
So, yeah, there have been MMOs for high end users in the past but most prefer to maximize potential players while saving some bucks at the same time.
Housing is not really a good example, many MMOs including UO had it... I actually have no clue why Wow didn't add it a long time ago.
But yeah, FF XIV isn't really simple and MMOs without keyboard does not mean the game must be easy or simple in itself.
All the talk about MMO's for high end PC's. There has been a drop of, increasingly you don't need a top end PC to run any new MMO. But that's the same for PC solo games, as PC Format pointed out recently PC hardware is still leaping ahead as it has since PC's began. But the architecture and power needed for PC games has not.
They do not go on to postulate why this is the case. I would put it to you that solo console games are holding the PC back. Gaming companies do not want to release games on the PC that cannot be easily converted into console versions. And when console games come to the PC they do not get upgraded to take advantage of the PC's superior specs.
To an extent has been the case since the divergence between consoles and PC gaming began. But the every increasing ties between gaming studios and console companies is making this more of an issue every year.
Hardcore PC fans are going to willfully ignore FF14 because if they acknowledge it then they will have to admit that console MMOs are indeed viable without being "dumbed down".
Also, I hope that the next gen consoles does cause an MMO Renaissance. PCs have been the dominant platform for MMOs for the past 17 years and the genre is stagnating to the point of regression.
There is no reason technical reason that a console MMO cannot be the best MMO out there, it is the track record of console games that makes this unlikely. PC MMO's adopted bad design principles from console games, its unlikely more console based design is the answer.
Its interesting that MMO pundits recognise there is something wrong with the genre, take a look at this thread or the one "are MMO's too easy". But they are uncomfortable with the true reasons as to why the genre is having problems, instead they jump on every bandwagon that comes along thinking that will be the answer. Making MMO's more "sandbox" has been the big thing over the last year. Now consoles will save the genre. The easymode nature of MMO's a big issue, but it is just one of the problems that need to be addressed.
MMO's are not being designed to last, there are too many of them out there and they only use one template. Unless those issues are addressed nothing will get better. You can mix some sand in or put them on a new platform all you like, it will still be the same old story.
What is with this FFXIV nonsense. The number one major problem with FFXIV when it launched was the horrible interface. Exhibit A! Perfect example of why MMOs written for both platforms have major issues. Sometimes I really wonder if people who post here actually play the games they talk about or they just conveniently ignore any issues that conflict with their theme..
No.
I had hope for your article when I saw, "After all, the console gaming experience has been a bit more streamlined (or ‘dumbed down’, if you prefer) this generation and that could certainly extend to MMOs if developers end up looking at console players as their primary audience." You touched on the very cause of MMO failures that I attribute to consoles.
This is an excerpt from what I started to write for Marks article on the Dumbing Down of MMOs, please enjoy. Consoles, and Console Gamers are the root cause of easy gaming. When Pugs form, the console gamer mentality takes over. Their hearts race, the speed of progression increases, they feel invulnerable. They stop for nothing, not story, not lore, and not environment. Now I am not talking about every console game or console gamer. I’m talking about the console games with less than 20 hours of game play, or game play sessions timed in minutes. Many console games are on-rails or employ major hand holding.
All because the game controller is an ultra-simplistic interface. Since a camera was removed from the standard configuration of a next gen console to save $100, I don’t expect them to add a keyboard anytime soon. Nor do I expect console gamers to be up to the challenge of a keyboard.
Now that most PC keyboards and mice are USB devices I see less of a hurdle to swapping these PC devices to a console if a multi-platform gamer wanted to. But why buy a game for a console and swap your keyboard and mouse if you could just as well buy the PC version of the game. But I do see developers making console exclusive MMOs that use K&M as the primary interface just to get PC gamers to switch platform focus. This I do see as the next trend. Do I see it leading to innovation? No. Innovation comes from the people making games, not the people selling games. If you can understand the difference.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
There are some major hurdles concerning a jump to a solid MMORPG developed for consoles. Gamers who are exclusively console gamers want a bit more of a "smash and grab" atmosphere in a game. These gamers needs should be considered, because the marketability of the game is key to it's survival. A solid MMORPG developed for a console needs to focus on the fact that it wants to bring console players to the MMORPG realm rather than bring MMORPG players from the PC to the console. Traditional PC MMORPG players will flock to a game that bursts into popularity quicker than console players will transition to a new genre of gaming.
Secondly, the ideal game would only utilize the controller for all aspects of the game. This means a couple things: 1. Easy to use skills and menus 2. Ability to communicate quickly using only the controller.
And so ideally we wouldn't see a need for massive numbers of skills, but a simple to use set that can be managed within the buttons on the shoulders and on the right hand face of the controller. The PS4 is moving in the correct direction with the touchpad, but that would need further development with a "swype"-like interface for quickly chatting in game between pulls ect...
Third, and most importantly, the game really, truly, needs to be next-gen. MMORPG Gamers have already been awed by immense communities, grinding quests, and massive beasts that take a horde of players to take down. What needs to be in a next-gen MMORPG is true fluidity. By that I mean outside the box thinking. Nothing is more boring than the same old have a class, have a crafting skill chosen from one of six, or the, that sword drops in such and such dungeon off such and such boss and every warrior has one because it's the best in the game. Players want a true uniqueness to their character and the only way to achieve this is through true randomness of drops ect... and some unthinkable number of options to play the game. Rather than grinding out levels with all my characters, maybe I'll take one and roll it to do one of over 100 different side roles given as an option. Players tend to want their character to be unique, and this would make that aspect be more likely.
Lastly, (this is a personal opinion) is that there must be a strong sense of community that is maintained throughout the life of the game. By this I mean a strong need to be in a group or "guild" of people you play with consistently. What ruined WoW for me was something most players delighted in. When dungeons went cross-server. Oh yes, it made grouping quicker and easier, but it ruined the community atmosphere I had grown to love. It made it so that you couldn't recruit the player you enjoyed a dungeon with, because that particular player wasn't from your server. As I said before, a total opinion, but one I strongly believe.