Originally posted by Segun777 There is so much arrogance in this 'article' and the answer isn't a simple yes or no. Lets rather say that as a business gaming companies pander to their audience. Since a majority of gamers don't finish games, its hard to argue that games have gotten 'too easy' even though they have indeed gotten easier. In short, while games have gotten easier its the audience that is primarily driving the movement.
well, the problem is there aren't serious attempts at pandering to a slightly more hardcore audience. Its makes sense that a lot of companies design their game with the majority in mind. The problem is there aren't games made for the enthusiasts. The car industry has cars purely designed for people that only use cars to get from point A to B as well as cars for car enthusiasts. The videogame industry designs every game for the casuals. Its sad how in many ways games are inferior to the ones made 10 plus years ago. People can blame the rising cost of games, but the rising cost doesn't magically increase... If a small group of extremely skilled guys over a decade ago can make everquest, or quake, why can't a similarly small group of skilled individuals make another game pandering to the same type of players, without the flash or the scale needed to pander to casuals?
Nope OP, if you choose to play these simple mmo's that do the thinking for you ie GW2-NWN-RIFT and soon to be TESO.
Play Age Of Wushu, Vanguard, WurmOnline the list goes on.
Savage, I don't think he was implying that every MMO that has ever been made is easy. Just that has there been a trend of late to develop more accessible, easier MMO's, which is obviously been the case.
I think most people are aware there are still some alternatives out there.
Ah, yeah most of the mmo's coming out today are non thinking man mmo's especially in the west.
The challenge for today's developers is creating a game that, while challenging, allows players to still achieve that "heroic" feeling. Unfortunately, today's loot centric dynamic doesn't allow for a great deal of flexibility in that regard. Everything is driven by the gear you carry and the weapon you use. Skill development (in game skills, not the so called "Leet Skillz" crap people use to describe what they do while sitting on their arse and punching a bunch of keys) should be the sole determining factor on the type of character you are. An advancement system that awards the player with points to put toward whatever skill they choose, whether it be swords, axes, crafting, magic (specific schools?), etc. would open things up for the player to truly focus on those things he/she wanted to achieve.
In so far as loot, it is my belief that every single piece of gear you obtain should be graphically customizable. That way the "epic weapon" would not look like everyone else. Would love to see a game that provides individual weapons (say, an heir loom) that allowed for graphic customization and gained it's "magical" attributes from say runes or enchanted gems that could be affixed to the said weapon. Allows your weapon to grow in power over time as the character hones their skills.
Just my rambling 2 cents on the matter.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
Originally posted by Segun777 There is so much arrogance in this 'article' and the answer isn't a simple yes or no. Lets rather say that as a business gaming companies pander to their audience. Since a majority of gamers don't finish games, its hard to argue that games have gotten 'too easy' even though they have indeed gotten easier. In short, while games have gotten easier its the audience that is primarily driving the movement.
well, the problem is there aren't serious attempts at pandering to a slightly more hardcore audience. Its makes sense that a lot of companies design their game with the majority in mind. The problem is there aren't games made for the enthusiasts. The car industry has cars purely designed for people that only use cars to get from point A to B as well as cars for car enthusiasts. The videogame industry designs every game for the casuals. Its sad how in many ways games are inferior to the ones made 10 plus years ago. People can blame the rising cost of games, but the rising cost doesn't magically increase... If a small group of extremely skilled guys over a decade ago can make everquest, or quake, why can't a similarly small group of skilled individuals make another game pandering to the same type of players, without the flash or the scale needed to pander to casuals?
Agreed.. Many of us have pointed this out before, but often falls on deaf ears.. It seems that every game dev wants to go after the McDonald numbers, and the only way to do that is sell the same junk.. There isn't enough market out there for everyone to own a Caddy or to put a 4 star steakhouse on every corner.. However, there is a market for an elite customer base, IF you find a group of competent gaming enthusiast willing to be a big fish in a little pond.. The cost of server space today is a fraction of what it was 10 years ago.. I would estimate that any small business gaming company could be profitable with 20,000 customers.. The trick is getting the right group together..
I find it funny that so many people will repeat the mantra that time is money and that you need to be able to spend your time effectively in these games to quickly achieve short term goals YET they spend a copious amount of time in these games essentially making the argument oxymoron.
Essentially instead of spending time on time consuming content people repeat that "quick content" over and over practically spending the same amount of time in the end, how can that be more accessible or better in terms of experience?
People who truly can only play short bursts are already catered via mobile or social markets.
Originally posted by Segun777 There is so much arrogance in this 'article' and the answer isn't a simple yes or no. Lets rather say that as a business gaming companies pander to their audience. Since a majority of gamers don't finish games, its hard to argue that games have gotten 'too easy' even though they have indeed gotten easier. In short, while games have gotten easier its the audience that is primarily driving the movement.
well, the problem is there aren't serious attempts at pandering to a slightly more hardcore audience. Its makes sense that a lot of companies design their game with the majority in mind. The problem is there aren't games made for the enthusiasts. The car industry has cars purely designed for people that only use cars to get from point A to B as well as cars for car enthusiasts. The videogame industry designs every game for the casuals. Its sad how in many ways games are inferior to the ones made 10 plus years ago. People can blame the rising cost of games, but the rising cost doesn't magically increase... If a small group of extremely skilled guys over a decade ago can make everquest, or quake, why can't a similarly small group of skilled individuals make another game pandering to the same type of players, without the flash or the scale needed to pander to casuals?
Agreed.. Many of us have pointed this out before, but often falls on deaf ears.. It seems that every game dev wants to go after the McDonald numbers, and the only way to do that is sell the same junk.. There isn't enough market out there for everyone to own a Caddy or to put a 4 star steakhouse on every corner.. However, there is a market for an elite customer base, IF you find a group of competent gaming enthusiast willing to be a big fish in a little pond.. The cost of server space today is a fraction of what it was 10 years ago.. I would estimate that any small business gaming company could be profitable with 20,000 customers.. The trick is getting the right group together..
And this elit customer base you mention are willing to pay $5000 per month for playing? How else would the developers gain lots of cash from this small playerbase?
A brief explanation (as I'm at work): There's no "checkpoints" anymore, because player skill isn't a factor. When I say checkpoints, I mean a point in the game where your ability as an individual/group need to be tested. That does NOTmean what every modern MMO acts like it means: a blatant gut-check on your gear. Gear, in fact, should have nearly nothing to do with it. Rather, it should be a tooth-and-nail fight that requires a lot of skill, and a little luck. You should be able to lose to more than "Whoops, I pulled 3 mobs instead of 2!"
The only game that had anything like this in recent memory was FFXI. The Genkai quests were brutal, but in order to keep leveling, you had to complete them; 4 times! Then, if you wanted to keep leveling to the level cap, you had to defeat Maat; a vicious, 1 v 1 mirror match of your class vs. a substantially stronger foe. It was mind-numbing, but when you did FINALLY beat Maat, it was like "That... was amazing." It ensured you understood your class and it's limitations to the fullest.
More importantly, pain-staking difficulty builds community. When you create prbolems that people can't solve by themselves, guess what they do? They interact. You can see this even in the most casual MMO's out there. "Hey, I need to kill this boss... help me out?" "Sure." You see it happen all the time. The problem is, once said boss is dead, there's absolutely no reason to continue grouping, so people don't. That relative ease for the 98% of the game conditions the solo mentality, whereas if it was 98% challenging content, group play would be more beneficial.
I wish every developer would read this quoted post, then games wouldn't be so damn boring.
I would like to see this gentleman counquer a dungeon in Gw2 with a Gw2 first timers and tell in my face that the game doesnt require skill ...
Totally agree with this. It is definitely a balancing act. I really believe Vanilla WoW had the balance of hardcore vs. accessibility down almost perfect. I thought it was a big mistake when they dumbed down XP, let you get mounts at level 20. I mean, I remember what a big accomplishment it used to be just to get to level 40 and get your first mount. Doesn't feel like that at all anymore. Adding XP from crafting was the final straw for me. I may go back to WoW at some point, but it will just be because I can hang out with RL friends.
Originally posted by moosecatlol ...It's funny to think now that everyone sees WoW as the most casual game to have ever existed, while the same time factually realizing that it still holds the title of most hardcore PvE game to have ever existed and it did so without the crutch of perma-death or exploding gear.
This is an example of how to win people over. Acknowledge, respectfully, another's position and offer up evidence for yours. Well spoken, sir; I am moved. Posts like this one make me think I should really give WoW a try. Especially since I have been a blizzard fan since Orcs & Humans. Or perhaps I should wait for Titan.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
The solo content is pretty easy, I can level a character in just about any MMO that is solo oriented and never die a single time.
Group and raid content just became simple. There's no sense of impossibility, once someone figures out a way or two to defeat a boss, it becomes second nature and you rarely ever wipe on that boss again.
The last great raid was probably ICC in WoW. It had different fights, and it seems like ever since, every boss battle is the same in every MMO.
Originally posted by deamian Time is valuable, lately everything is centered around that concept. I want another game like Everquest that steals away my entire evening to get progress, not a game that I progress through the whole game in one evening.
You and many others vets make the mistake of confusing time spent and difficulty.
The original GW was actually really hard initially (now it isn't anymore) but you still didn't have to put that much time into it as long as you played it well.
I think we need some MMOs that is actually hard to play but still don't require 8 hours a day to play. I had my hopes up for GW2 at the first beta weekend, it was awesome but whiny people got upset that they were killed because they didnt know how to play and the difficulty were lowered a lot. Heck, there were piles of dead noobs lying around at the starting area in the first 2 beta weekends
The real problem with MMOs is that everyone tries to do exactly the same as everyone else instead of letting us choose a game with the difficulty and time consuming that fits us personally.
And yeah, I don't have the time either to put as much time now as I had 10+ years ago... I still think there should be games for people who have though.
The real problem with MMOs is that everyone tries to do exactly the same as everyone else instead of letting us choose a game with the difficulty and time consuming that fits us personally.
I've often wondered if games have come far enough that you could have a selectable difficulty setting for open world pve mobs. Mobs that hit harder move faster and have more abilities to fight with as you move the difficulty up. They'd also give more xp and money as well.
Instead of forcing group content or hard encounters on people let them choose how hard it is. As long as they even out in the end.
Level scaling is a good way to get me to not play your game. There's no sense of accomplishment. Sometimes it's nice to revisit an area where you got your ass kicked and try again when you're stronger. And if events are downscaled to the point you can face the Lich King at level 3, that's even worse. Level scaling is one of the reason I couldn't play Guild Wars 2.
Originally posted by Segun777 There is so much arrogance in this 'article' and the answer isn't a simple yes or no. Lets rather say that as a business gaming companies pander to their audience. Since a majority of gamers don't finish games, its hard to argue that games have gotten 'too easy' even though they have indeed gotten easier. In short, while games have gotten easier its the audience that is primarily driving the movement.
well, the problem is there aren't serious attempts at pandering to a slightly more hardcore audience. Its makes sense that a lot of companies design their game with the majority in mind. The problem is there aren't games made for the enthusiasts. The car industry has cars purely designed for people that only use cars to get from point A to B as well as cars for car enthusiasts. The videogame industry designs every game for the casuals. Its sad how in many ways games are inferior to the ones made 10 plus years ago. People can blame the rising cost of games, but the rising cost doesn't magically increase... If a small group of extremely skilled guys over a decade ago can make everquest, or quake, why can't a similarly small group of skilled individuals make another game pandering to the same type of players, without the flash or the scale needed to pander to casuals?
Agreed.. Many of us have pointed this out before, but often falls on deaf ears.. It seems that every game dev wants to go after the McDonald numbers, and the only way to do that is sell the same junk.. There isn't enough market out there for everyone to own a Caddy or to put a 4 star steakhouse on every corner.. However, there is a market for an elite customer base, IF you find a group of competent gaming enthusiast willing to be a big fish in a little pond.. The cost of server space today is a fraction of what it was 10 years ago.. I would estimate that any small business gaming company could be profitable with 20,000 customers.. The trick is getting the right group together..
And this elit customer base you mention are willing to pay $5000 per month for playing? How else would the developers gain lots of cash from this small playerbase?
the same way they did 10 years ago? keeping costs down... The gaming population has drastically increased, which means the number of hardcore players has also increased. Which means there is a bigger market for hardcore games now then there ever has been. There is also a smaller supply of quality hardcore games to meet that demand than there used to be, its practically nonexistent. A small group of devs should easily be able to be profitable designing games without completely pandering to casuals.
Agreed.. Many of us have pointed this out before, but often falls on deaf ears.. It seems that every game dev wants to go after the McDonald numbers, and the only way to do that is sell the same junk.. There isn't enough market out there for everyone to own a Caddy or to put a 4 star steakhouse on every corner.. However, there is a market for an elite customer base, IF you find a group of competent gaming enthusiast willing to be a big fish in a little pond.. The cost of server space today is a fraction of what it was 10 years ago.. I would estimate that any small business gaming company could be profitable with 20,000 customers.. The trick is getting the right group together..
And this elite customer base you mention are willing to pay $5000 per month for playing? How else would the developers gain lots of cash from this small playerbase?
$5,000 x 20,000 users = $100,000,000 per month!
ONE HUNDRED MILLION --- PER MONTH!!
I doubt a company needs to gross 100 mil. per month to maintain profitablity, but it is an interesting attempt on your part at scaring away interest in the idea...
You know, for folks who can't do simple math in their heads and don't own a calculator.
MMOs were never hard. NEVER. You're insane if you actually think otherwise. Most games are fine as they are. Easy doesn't mean boring. If you like the game, you like it. You don't need to spend hours grinding materials for potions for that raid later in the day for the game to feel worthwhile.
I wanna know when people got it in their heads that games need to be hard. Where did fun go? A MMORPG can be as easy as it wants, just make it fun for God's sake.
In City of Heroes it took me 10 months of play to get a character to max level. In Star Trek Online it took less than half that of casual play. In Neverwinter I expect to reach in less of half of STO. MMOs used to be about long term commitments and rewarding work. Now it's like your character can pray to his/her god and get XP. The goal shifted from long term to short term to get money before players are distracted by the next shiny object.
When I hit max level in an MMO, I go and make a new character. If MMOs weren't mostly about 'race to the endgame' I would be a lot happier. Having said that, "MMOs used to be about long term commitments and rewarding work"? Gosh, that sounds like a game I'd play to relax.
Give me story-rich leveling content with meaningful decisions, that can be done solo, and that you can experience differently on each new character. Give me meaningful character build differences - I love games where I can spend hours just designing builds.
Don't give me content that's gated by group size. The main reason I quit GW2 was that the last quest of my 'Personal Story', that up to then was completely soloable, was suddenly requiring a group of 5. I raided in WoW and spent about 1/4 of the time actually playing and rest waiting for people to show up/waiting for people to finish their drama/etc.
Man you need to be part of a better project than firefall, i bought the commanders package to help the game out, but i cant see that game making it for the clientele you think you are attracting. We want swords, boards, spells, stealth, tactics, strategy, communication on a massive scale, limited transportation, you see sir, you are right, they are too easy in almost every aspect i listed above. Also there is no penalty for playing bad.....this whole trying to make it so everyone can play is completey wrong and also an invalid argument, i mean ill buy that crap when they make it so amputees and blind folks can play too.
I've this argument for a long time now. "MMOs are too easy!" "WoW is easy mode". I understand why they say this. It's because the content you have access to when you first log in as a level one is incredibly easy. The entire leveling process is incredibly easy. Even the early endgame; dailies, heroics, scenarios, LFR, etc, are all incredibly easy. Now start Normal mode raids. Woah! Those are harder than anyhing you can find in Vanilla WoW short of maybe a couple bosses in Naxx. Ok, but it's doable. Now start Heroic Raids. WoW!!! Those are much harder than anything in Vanilla WoW, hands down! Try Brawlers guild. There are some seriously challenging fights in there. For real! Try challenge mode dungeons. They are ridiculously punishing. No, no. You cannot claim it is too easy unless you have tried the difficult content; Heroic Raids, Challenge Modes, Brawlers Guild (Past rank 7), and PvP has always been as challenging as the apponant makes it.
WoW is not easymode. You merely have to actually do the challenging content. I can't speak for other MMOs, but that is the case for WoW.
And why should the leveling content be this amazingly well-crafted journey? If it takes me even a month to get to max level (which it won't in ay modern MMO), and I play for the next year, I spend 11 of those 12 months at max level. Why should they not put the most care into the endgame? Their is a long list of failed MMOs who neglected endgame content. By all means, make the same mistake. To your own peril.
Firefall is "skill based combat" or shooter combat designed so any mmo player can complete it. So completely boring and easy content if you have average or above average skill.
Comments
well, the problem is there aren't serious attempts at pandering to a slightly more hardcore audience. Its makes sense that a lot of companies design their game with the majority in mind. The problem is there aren't games made for the enthusiasts. The car industry has cars purely designed for people that only use cars to get from point A to B as well as cars for car enthusiasts. The videogame industry designs every game for the casuals. Its sad how in many ways games are inferior to the ones made 10 plus years ago. People can blame the rising cost of games, but the rising cost doesn't magically increase... If a small group of extremely skilled guys over a decade ago can make everquest, or quake, why can't a similarly small group of skilled individuals make another game pandering to the same type of players, without the flash or the scale needed to pander to casuals?
Ah, yeah most of the mmo's coming out today are non thinking man mmo's especially in the west.
Take GW2, it's the worst of them all.
TL:DR
The only easy mmo's are...well, the easy ones!
Come play darkfall. It's the darksouls of mmo's
The challenge for today's developers is creating a game that, while challenging, allows players to still achieve that "heroic" feeling. Unfortunately, today's loot centric dynamic doesn't allow for a great deal of flexibility in that regard. Everything is driven by the gear you carry and the weapon you use. Skill development (in game skills, not the so called "Leet Skillz" crap people use to describe what they do while sitting on their arse and punching a bunch of keys) should be the sole determining factor on the type of character you are. An advancement system that awards the player with points to put toward whatever skill they choose, whether it be swords, axes, crafting, magic (specific schools?), etc. would open things up for the player to truly focus on those things he/she wanted to achieve.
In so far as loot, it is my belief that every single piece of gear you obtain should be graphically customizable. That way the "epic weapon" would not look like everyone else. Would love to see a game that provides individual weapons (say, an heir loom) that allowed for graphic customization and gained it's "magical" attributes from say runes or enchanted gems that could be affixed to the said weapon. Allows your weapon to grow in power over time as the character hones their skills.
Just my rambling 2 cents on the matter.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
Agreed.. Many of us have pointed this out before, but often falls on deaf ears.. It seems that every game dev wants to go after the McDonald numbers, and the only way to do that is sell the same junk.. There isn't enough market out there for everyone to own a Caddy or to put a 4 star steakhouse on every corner.. However, there is a market for an elite customer base, IF you find a group of competent gaming enthusiast willing to be a big fish in a little pond.. The cost of server space today is a fraction of what it was 10 years ago.. I would estimate that any small business gaming company could be profitable with 20,000 customers.. The trick is getting the right group together..
I find it funny that so many people will repeat the mantra that time is money and that you need to be able to spend your time effectively in these games to quickly achieve short term goals YET they spend a copious amount of time in these games essentially making the argument oxymoron.
Essentially instead of spending time on time consuming content people repeat that "quick content" over and over practically spending the same amount of time in the end, how can that be more accessible or better in terms of experience?
People who truly can only play short bursts are already catered via mobile or social markets.
And this elit customer base you mention are willing to pay $5000 per month for playing? How else would the developers gain lots of cash from this small playerbase?
I would like to see this gentleman counquer a dungeon in Gw2 with a Gw2 first timers and tell in my face that the game doesnt require skill ...
This is an example of how to win people over. Acknowledge, respectfully, another's position and offer up evidence for yours. Well spoken, sir; I am moved. Posts like this one make me think I should really give WoW a try. Especially since I have been a blizzard fan since Orcs & Humans. Or perhaps I should wait for Titan.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
The solo content is pretty easy, I can level a character in just about any MMO that is solo oriented and never die a single time.
Group and raid content just became simple. There's no sense of impossibility, once someone figures out a way or two to defeat a boss, it becomes second nature and you rarely ever wipe on that boss again.
The last great raid was probably ICC in WoW. It had different fights, and it seems like ever since, every boss battle is the same in every MMO.
You and many others vets make the mistake of confusing time spent and difficulty.
The original GW was actually really hard initially (now it isn't anymore) but you still didn't have to put that much time into it as long as you played it well.
I think we need some MMOs that is actually hard to play but still don't require 8 hours a day to play. I had my hopes up for GW2 at the first beta weekend, it was awesome but whiny people got upset that they were killed because they didnt know how to play and the difficulty were lowered a lot. Heck, there were piles of dead noobs lying around at the starting area in the first 2 beta weekends
The real problem with MMOs is that everyone tries to do exactly the same as everyone else instead of letting us choose a game with the difficulty and time consuming that fits us personally.
And yeah, I don't have the time either to put as much time now as I had 10+ years ago... I still think there should be games for people who have though.
I've often wondered if games have come far enough that you could have a selectable difficulty setting for open world pve mobs. Mobs that hit harder move faster and have more abilities to fight with as you move the difficulty up. They'd also give more xp and money as well.
Instead of forcing group content or hard encounters on people let them choose how hard it is. As long as they even out in the end.
the same way they did 10 years ago? keeping costs down... The gaming population has drastically increased, which means the number of hardcore players has also increased. Which means there is a bigger market for hardcore games now then there ever has been. There is also a smaller supply of quality hardcore games to meet that demand than there used to be, its practically nonexistent. A small group of devs should easily be able to be profitable designing games without completely pandering to casuals.
GW2 as an example is more convenient and less bs.
The same people who played the first mmo's as kids, now have kids, jobs, /cough lives :P
$5,000 x 20,000 users = $100,000,000 per month!
ONE HUNDRED MILLION --- PER MONTH!!
I doubt a company needs to gross 100 mil. per month to maintain profitablity, but it is an interesting attempt on your part at scaring away interest in the idea...
You know, for folks who can't do simple math in their heads and don't own a calculator.
MMOs were never hard. NEVER. You're insane if you actually think otherwise. Most games are fine as they are. Easy doesn't mean boring. If you like the game, you like it. You don't need to spend hours grinding materials for potions for that raid later in the day for the game to feel worthwhile.
I wanna know when people got it in their heads that games need to be hard. Where did fun go? A MMORPG can be as easy as it wants, just make it fun for God's sake.
When I hit max level in an MMO, I go and make a new character. If MMOs weren't mostly about 'race to the endgame' I would be a lot happier. Having said that, "MMOs used to be about long term commitments and rewarding work"? Gosh, that sounds like a game I'd play to relax.
Give me story-rich leveling content with meaningful decisions, that can be done solo, and that you can experience differently on each new character. Give me meaningful character build differences - I love games where I can spend hours just designing builds.
Don't give me content that's gated by group size. The main reason I quit GW2 was that the last quest of my 'Personal Story', that up to then was completely soloable, was suddenly requiring a group of 5. I raided in WoW and spent about 1/4 of the time actually playing and rest waiting for people to show up/waiting for people to finish their drama/etc.
I've this argument for a long time now. "MMOs are too easy!" "WoW is easy mode". I understand why they say this. It's because the content you have access to when you first log in as a level one is incredibly easy. The entire leveling process is incredibly easy. Even the early endgame; dailies, heroics, scenarios, LFR, etc, are all incredibly easy. Now start Normal mode raids. Woah! Those are harder than anyhing you can find in Vanilla WoW short of maybe a couple bosses in Naxx. Ok, but it's doable. Now start Heroic Raids. WoW!!! Those are much harder than anything in Vanilla WoW, hands down! Try Brawlers guild. There are some seriously challenging fights in there. For real! Try challenge mode dungeons. They are ridiculously punishing. No, no. You cannot claim it is too easy unless you have tried the difficult content; Heroic Raids, Challenge Modes, Brawlers Guild (Past rank 7), and PvP has always been as challenging as the apponant makes it.
WoW is not easymode. You merely have to actually do the challenging content. I can't speak for other MMOs, but that is the case for WoW.
And why should the leveling content be this amazingly well-crafted journey? If it takes me even a month to get to max level (which it won't in ay modern MMO), and I play for the next year, I spend 11 of those 12 months at max level. Why should they not put the most care into the endgame? Their is a long list of failed MMOs who neglected endgame content. By all means, make the same mistake. To your own peril.