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Pay 2 Win = Subscription model, curiosity
william0532
Member Posts: 251
I'm just curious about this, but I read the P2W vs Subscription model argument fairly often, and a game I'm currently watching is not immune from the same discussions.
The game I'm watching though, only sells in game credits for real cash. Nothing else, no items, no gear, nothing.
The in game store also has a cap on how much you can spend a month(you are probably guessing it's not an EA or Activision game lol).
So my question is, if the max amount of in game currency you could buy a month was less than your typical subscription model, would people still see it as pay 2 win?
If the max amount of real money you could spend was like 13 Dollars a month for in game credits, could people still make any kind of argument that it was pay 2 win?
Comments
p2w is something you have to decide on yourself. So many ppl use it to mean I'm poor and can only play free games so anything that costs money = p2w it's all but a meaningless term.
If you think a cash shop exploits it's players into buy an advantage over free players it's p2w and you shouldn't play it. If you're ok with how the game runs and don't have an issue with the cash shop don't let someone tell you it's bad. Keep enjoying the game.
btw subscription ( p2p ) is the pinnacle of p2w. If you don't pay you can't even compete :P
LOL, yeah. The term seems so cut and dry, but peoples interpretations seem so varied. The game I'm watching, a new P2W thread is started hourly so I was just curious if something like this is a valid compromise.(it's kind of what they are doing, except low amount of money monthly could be more than the amount I created).
I was just curious if this would get rid of the "P2W threads" that have started plaguing the site lol.
The only reason I brought up subscription, is because every P2W thread seems to have "I wish they would just have a subscription instead" comment included in it.
Any game that you can buy in game currency with RL money is imho PTW. It's not that I can't afford 50 bucks here and there. It's that you have people dropping thousands of dollars on these games to get the best gear & abilities in the game. The ability to do that just irks me. (Age of Wushu, Neverwinter, & pretty much any Korean FTP MMO)
And if you think I'm crazy for saying thousands of dollars. You need to understand a little bit about Korea & China. In both countries the majority of people playing MMO's are from the very wealthy caste of society. So dropping thousands of dollars on a game isn't a big deal for them. Age of Wushu in china has sold glowing fiery swords for 15 grand a pop, and they actually sold. The same game has sold entire ability sets for 800-1500 USD.
GW2 strikes the perfect medium between these two lines, in that you can trade RL money for Gold, but the game's progression is capped. And after your have the best stats for your build (very easy to get), the only thing to spend money on is visual fluff. Which doesn't effect character performance.
So how does the system I described sound? I'm actually looking for people who really hate Pay 2 Win, in any incarnation or interpretation to see if they see the system I described as good.
-Capped amount you can spend a month(hopefully about a sub rate 15 dollars or such)
-Can only buy credits(there is no items for sell in the store, just in game credits, well there is real crap like t-shirts, but nothing in game)
-But the game is Buy to play, you don't have to pay anything.
I'm just wondering if this model bridges the gap well.
it is Pay 2 Win if you pay even just 1 dollar and as a result of that i cannot be competitive against you unless i pay that dollar as well.
Its not the amount of money, its the fact that real life money gives power advantage to a player over people who didnt pay it.
Well no of course not but no game developer would ever do that,NEVER.
cash shop works for one reason only,they have the ability to get MORE from the people who would actually spend than a normal sub fee.They were never going to get anything out of the players that don't spend anyway,so they lose nothing there.There only focus is the spenders and if they can get anything from the non spenders,it is a bonus.
If they limited their maximum to less than a sub fee,they might as well go sub fee,they wouldn't need the freebies anymore.Freebies only serve one purpose,to keep the paying customers there,but they still need to recoup some of that added cost,so the extra they get from spenders makes up for the bandwidth cost.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Subscription is not play to win, there are no "free players" those people are called people who don't own the game. It is a very simple concept that applies to most things in our economy.
If that makes them play to win, then every classic game ever was p2w. Zelda? P2W.
In my opinion yes buying credits is pay to win even if you have some limit. As are f2p cash shop games that give "subscribers" a monthly allowance of "cash shop credits" or in-game currency. These games don't offer an option to simply play the game unhindered by the choice whether to pay real money to help you progress or not, that makes them pay to win For subscribers in these games (which I have been) yes you are given an "allowance" but really that forces you to use the cash shop to get your money's worth. So for people who are anti-cash shop it is a huge slap in the face.
Also seeing as not everyone plays for stats. All cosmetic gear in shop is pay to win. if you put those cosmetic items in a P2P MMO such as ARR does with "minion" pets, people would still buy them (with in-game credits) or do any number of tasks for them.
This has always been true in MMO's since the very beginning as "cosmetic" items have always been around.
I'm sorry you are "tired" of the anti-P2W threads. Some of us still find it incredulous that the community so quickly abandoned the values we all espoused when we collectively turned on RMT and gold buyers/sellers as being bad for our communities. But hey when gaming companies sell out and embrace it everything's suddenly cool, right?
Not with this cat. Booooooooo to you f2p games and supporters.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
There's never been an mmo made that you couldn't. You can't always buy it from the developers but you can always "pay to win " if you want to. So in your opinion every mmo is p2w.....
see how pointless the word has become.
like He said, GW2 strikes the perfect balance. Thats the model to go in my opinion, If you want to spend more money is on your own terms, no limitations if you dont pay extra since you already paid for the game at the store. Unless a new model improves over that one and still dont force people to pay extra just because.... then everything is fine. When you purchase a game you should be able to decide on your own if you want to keep supporting the game with more money down the road, and still be able to play the entire game you purchased. Thats where Swtor f2p model failed hard, sadly. But thats another topic entirely.
I think you've misunderstood the whole argument. Look at this way: You have an amusement park and you get access to all of the rides for $15. This includes all kiddie rides and the big ones, as well as snack for the day. Then the amusement park drops the fee and starts charging you $5 per ride. If you rode 5 rides before, it cost you the same as every person in the park - $15. Now, it costs you $25. And that snack? That'll be 10 more bucks.
See the problem?
A bannable offense. Against the rules of the game, and risking public shaming from the community.
Not quite the same when it is sanctioned, is it?
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
Some people enjoy video games and they want to get the most out of them.
They aren't content seeing only the "free" side of the game, and wearing the "free" equipment. P2P games offer them complete freedom to play an MMO in that world.
Cash shop games very rarely "work" unless a player has to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to get the "full experience".
F2P gamers derisively call players with all unlocks whales, while in P2P games we tend to call them people who enjoy playing the game.
It's a fundamental difference in the way we see MMORPG's I guess, and yet ironically most of our MMO's are derided as "themeparks" while games where you literally can't play in their world without interjecting "immersion breaking" microtransactions at some level would be a much more accurate description of a themepark or low rent carnival to me.
I hate taking children to themeparks, it ends up costing me a fortune. They just want to have fun, they don't understand all these things like arcades, food, and maybe your kid is kinda snotty and he requires you to buy him a cut in line pass that they have now decided is not totally insulting to sell for hundreds of dollars sometimes....even certain attractions cost money and are overpriced because they have us trapped in the themepark so it is easy for them to gouge us.
This is EXACTLY how I feel playing F2P MMO's, like I am in a themepark. But not as the child amazed at all the great rides and fun things to do. It is the overpriced themepark I have to pay for as the sullen adult, and as I fork over more and more money realize what a ripoff it all is. And there goes that feeling of unbridled enjoyment I had as a child....
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
Pair this with my need to have everything cool or interesting I see and you have the exact reason I don't spend much time with F2P.
If I must go through a shop to do that I guess GW2 was okay, since I could give them game coin, though their new dependence on RNG boxes marked my swift departure from that game.
It's a hell of a lot better when it's sanctioned. What has a gold selling company ever done to improve a game I play ? they hack my accounts, spam my chats and annoy me. Does prison stop people from buying drugs ? None of those things stop ppl from buying gold either.
If people are going to buy gold...and they will buy it I'd rather the money go to a game maker than buy it from some douche that hacks accounts and sells it and puts none of that money back into the game.
Sure they need a better system that doesn't require ppl to buy gold...they need to feed starving kids instead of building missiles too. I don't see either happening any time soon so I'll take the lesser of two evils thx.
william0532, if a player plays an MMO "to win", there are many subjective ways in which to do so. Personally, I play an MMO to play it, actually hoping never to "win."
And yes, P2P is the ultimate P2W scenario
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
You are right prison doesn't stop crime, instead of punishing the crime of fraud and various forms of cheating (tax/investment/regulatory etc.) let's integrate these frauds and cheaters into our society so that they are celebrated and depended upon for our economy to function "properly".
Oh right... reality. Can't I play my fantasy at least in an MMORPG? The one where cheating and fraud aren't "vital to the success of the game".
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
If you can buy currency ingame through real money and use that money to buy anything in game is P2W, it doesn't matter how much that said item cost. Imagine a player who works super hard to obtain and a player who buys the same item with a few clicks of the mouse. If you don't call that P2W, I think something is wrong with you :P.
Where as in a P2P game everyone is equal.
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Im not poor but i say majority of free 2 play with there cashshops are pay two win and i refuse to play them.
Sure you can, and when you can't log into your account because it's been hacked you can roll play and say those darn fairies are at it again. Whatever floats your boat.
The people you're playing the game with don't change, just who they give their money to does.
Well, that's not entirely accurate. I recall playing one P2W game where ammo you bought with real money for your spaceship was much MUCH more powerful than anything you could buy with in game currency. That's a pure definition of pay to win right there... if you pay cash, you will have an advantage and be able to "win" over someone who didn't. To compete, you must pay cash as well. Cash shops as they exist in games like GW2 are not pay to win, even though you can convert cash to gems and buy things with gems, because there's nothing you can buy that will allow you to "win" over someone that chooses to not buy anything. Paying cash for cosmetics isn't pay to win, it's pay for vanity.
Oderint, dum metuant.