God...let's not discuss WoT's. Game is really irritating.
Not really the game...it's the players ruining that one. So many adolescent remarks and absolutely NO teamwork involved. Everyone seems out for themselves and to get the highest kill count. It's sad. The 3 scenario's to every match...
1. Team rushes out and gets picked off 1 by 1.
2. Team all rushes to 1 side except maybe 1 or 2 that go the other way. 1 or 2 that went the other way get wiped out by the entire enemy team coming that direction...your teams flag gets capped.
3. Your assignment is to defend your base. So what does the team do? Rushes ahead and gets picked off one by one. You lose.
Average 1 win to 12 losses because too many are of the "me" mindset instead of the "we".
Sounds like pretty much every sport where you can play pickup games with random people. Ever play pickup football (either type), hockey or baseball with random kids from the neighborhood? You get a few who know what they are doing and the rest are adequate to horrible at the sport. However, as long as people are having fun, nobody complains. Then 1-2 people in the group decide to seriously pursue the sport, join a league or team and suddenly they have a problem playing with the pickup players because their expectations are too high.
Does WoT allow you to create your own teams and only play matches as a team? That right there solves the entire problem as you now have control over the quality of the players on your side.
Originally posted by nerovipus32 Playing video games is not a sport.
You're 100% it is not a sport, it's an e-sport, hence the name.
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by nerovipus32 Playing video games is not a sport.
I tend to agree but not because it's a computer game and some fat kid can be good at but because "luck" plays too much of a factor in most e-sports. The RNG removes the skill part of the game and makes it not a contest of skill...all the time. Luck is always a factor then.
Luck > Skill 150% of the time. You take someone with skill, that knows what they are doing, and you take someone who basis their wins off luck, the skilled player or team will achieve victory every time, unless the skilled player makes mistakes, in which they wouldn't be so skilled.
that's not true at all. They will win most of the time. The whole reason luck based things are not a sport is because of those few times they don't win because the rng made wasn't in their favor.
Look at world of tanks. If we both shoot but your shot bounces and my shot ammo racks you and you die...who had more skill ? by what you said there obviously I did because skill always wins. So even though the RNG decided my shot not only penetrated I also go a lucky roll and killed you in one hit. Even though you hit my tank you got an unlucky roll and the shot bounced off doing nothing. There was no skill deciding anything there, we both aimed and hit, it was luck that decided the outcome.
Over a thousand battles the number of times that's going to happen wont be enough for the lucky player to come out ahead...or even close. There will still be more than enough matches where it did happen that make it not a real test of skill.
Do they even have World of Tanks sponsored at MLG, as an event? To be honest, I didn't even know that WoT tried to become an e-sport, and in that case; that's silly. But those aren't the ones I watch, nor am I in to. I am into RTS/MoBA/FPS, the games where skill and strategy actually plays a part.
In a tournament MoBA, RTS, or FPS, everyone is on equal footing and has the same power potential as the other players, it's how they chose to use their minds that will allow them to overcome whatever team they get thrown at. Luck has nothing to do with it, sure; throughout the fight there may be a few "ohh damn, he just got so lucky he got away with 1 HP" with an entire team chasing him down. Ultimately though, it's the teams strategy which will achieve the ultimate victory.
Originally posted by nerovipus32 Playing video games is not a sport.
I tend to agree but not because it's a computer game and some fat kid can be good at but because "luck" plays too much of a factor in most e-sports. The RNG removes the skill part of the game and makes it not a contest of skill...all the time. Luck is always a factor then.
How are RTS, FPS or Fighting games "luck"? Hell, even MOBA games are very little luck. I think you're confusing MMORPGs as e-sports. The only MMORPG I can think of that could be an e-sport is maybe GW2.
I'm not confusing anything with what an e-sport is. I'm saying that most of these games that have the RNG mechanic built into them that are also trying to call themselves e-sports are not and can't be a sport of any kind because they have too much luck involved.
Games that use a dice roll for a weapons damage range ( eg 1-10 damage ) isn't the same thing as a game that uses a dice roll to see if you hit, or kill in one shot vrs nothing at all. It would be better if an ability just did a set amount of damage but it's a as big of a factor.
Games like mobas RTS, FPS don't use RNG really, they're based more on your knowledge of the game and ability to use your units. That makes them skill based. Most mmos and stat based shooters make far too much use of RNG.
You clearly are confused. You "tend to agree" with the statement "Playing video games is not a sport".
And clear many video games (MOBA, .... as discussed before) has no luck elements.
Planetside has had a long history of not understanding e-sports. PS2 is even less suited to it than PS1 was (and if you never heard of Planetside 1 as an e-sport, well...there's a lesson there.) So as far as PS is concerned, there's no chance of it ever becoming a true e-sport. (Which says nothing about whether the new battle isles are fun. They might be. The game just isn't remotely scaled or set up to be an e-sport.)
This is not unlike World of Tanks wanting to become an e-sport, because they've created a game which involves a fairly significant amount of RNG and therefore is a tiny bit too far distanced from skilled play.
E-sports are about creating a Great PVP Game, focused on skilled play, with minimal (or nonexistant) non-skill elements.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
e-sport is popular? Um... Sorry to disagree with you but I think you have the definition of "popular" mixed up with another word. Is e-sport played by the general population of people who play MMOs? No, it's not. Is it even watched by the general MMO population? Again, no, it's not.
Originally posted by Razeekster e-sport is popular? Um... Sorry to disagree with you but I think you have the definition of "popular" mixed up with another word. Is e-sport played by the general population of people who play MMOs? No, it's not. Is it even watched by the general MMO population? Again, no, it's not.
Maybe you're just woefully misinformed, but e-sports are undeniably pretty freaking popular. 12 million daily active players either put it at #1 at the time, or only slightly behind WOW or the top Facebook game. So one single e-sport game is at least the 3rd most played game in the world (probably more like 1st nowadays.)
Just because it may not overlap with the core MMO demographic doesn't mean there isn't significant overlap in the playerbases. Tons of players (myself included) have anecdotally mentioned playing e-sport games like LoL.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Razeekster e-sport is popular? Um... Sorry to disagree with you but I think you have the definition of "popular" mixed up with another word. Is e-sport played by the general population of people who play MMOs? No, it's not. Is it even watched by the general MMO population? Again, no, it's not.
Maybe you're just woefully misinformed, but e-sports are undeniably pretty freaking popular. 12 million daily active players either put it at #1 at the time, or only slightly behind WOW or the top Facebook game. So one single e-sport game is at least the 3rd most played game in the world (probably more like 1st nowadays.)
Just because it may not overlap with the core MMO demographic doesn't mean there isn't significant overlap in the playerbases. Tons of players (myself included) have anecdotally mentioned playing e-sport games like LoL.
If it's compared to all MMOs and their players than I'm sorry, I still have to disagree with you. I am not judging it's popularity by it's numbers (it wins that category). I am judging it's popularity by it's relevance in comparison to MMOs. Most of the PvP you see in MMOs don't support enough structure or have the kind of mechanics that support thinking or tactical planning and maneuvering (not to even mention that most MMOs are made up of PvE players, not PvPers, so that in itself cuts the demand for e-sports in MMOs).
Thus in my opinion, it's not all that relatively popular to most MMO players.
Originally posted by postpwn Back when it was still infuriatingly difficult, I thought Final Fantasy XI would've made a good e-sport.
It would have been great if the goal was to lull the audience to sleep. Seriously, can you imagine how "action packed" the commentary would be for a game like XI? Watch that video, and try to imagine commentators trying to be high energy and get the crowd involved.
"Oh my goodness! Byakko moved a little bit! Look at that great auto attack!"
Originally posted by nerovipus32 Playing video games is not a sport.
South Korea would disagree.
Do these kids in South Korea call themselves e-jocks? If so, do they use that as a way to pick up e-girls?
The truth is they are treated the same way we treat our movie stars. The main difference between e-sports and typical sports is that e-sports are about 90% mental, and 10% physical. There's very little physical training involved in playing computer games (obviously). A physical sport requires you to be physically strong and quick in most cases. The 'mental' game is prevalent on both sides, but one clearly requires more thinking than the other.
Originally posted by Panzerbase Wow pretty much showed the true interest, or lack of, in "e-sports".
Not even sure what the point of this debate is anymore. E-Sports like anything else is a preference. If you like e-sports then watch it. There's plenty to watch, and enjoy. If not then go do something else! Personally I could care less about football, but show me 2 top tier teams battling it out, and you've got my attention.
Skilled Game will always mean to me when both people start on even terms and win with everyone having the same advantages and disadvantages. Dota is in no way a true skilled based game. i will admit it's a team but skill? everyone gets a different hero different stuff and it comes down to who has the better farmed and picked smarter and teamwork but in no way to me anyways does a game where you all start with different stuff means legit Much more luck then legit if anything.
If it's compared to all MMOs and their players than I'm sorry, I still have to disagree with you. I am not judging it's popularity by it's numbers (it wins that category). I am judging it's popularity by it's relevance in comparison to MMOs. Most of the PvP you see in MMOs don't support enough structure or have the kind of mechanics that support thinking or tactical planning and maneuvering (not to even mention that most MMOs are made up of PvE players, not PvPers, so that in itself cuts the demand for e-sports in MMOs).
Thus in my opinion, it's not all that relatively popular to most MMO players.
Ah, well sure you can almost say with certainty that most MMO players aren't into e-sports. But you couldn't really disagree that e-sports is popular. E-sport popularity is well-documented and obvious, it's just the mix with the MMO crowd is a bit weak.
The reason why is most MMOs are MMORPGs, and all RPGs are (by design) a step away from pure skill gaming. Instead of your performance being 100% derived from your playing skill, it's at least partially (and usually quite strongly) derived from your character progression. It's an intentional thing, done to make gaming more casual (simply do this over and over, and things will be easier.) And it works and appeals broadly (probably to most or all people here.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I turn on the TV and watch Dwight Howard miss free throw after free throw but he still gets paid 20 million a year to play basketball. Why? Because he's 7'1", that doesnt impress me.
But I watch a Starcraft match with Jaedong's 300 APM or a Dota2 match with Dendi scoring a rampage and I'm left a bit in awe because I know no matter how much I could practice I would never be that good.
Originally posted by mayanking Skilled Game will always mean to me when both people start on even terms and win with everyone having the same advantages and disadvantages. Dota is in no way a true skilled based game. i will admit it's a team but skill? everyone gets a different hero different stuff and it comes down to who has the better farmed and picked smarter and teamwork but in no way to me anyways does a game where you all start with different stuff means legit Much more luck then legit if anything.
Are you under the impression that "getting farmed" is something randomly rewarded to players, rather than something earned through skillful play?
I didn't play DOTA nearly as much as I've played LoL, but I'm pretty sure nearly all of the factors in the game were deterministic, meaning player actions (player skill) completely dictate the course of the game with no significant non-skill elements.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by nerovipus32 Playing video games is not a sport.
South Korea would disagree.
Do these kids in South Korea call themselves e-jocks? If so, do they use that as a way to pick up e-girls?
Those 'kids' call themselves 'professional gamers' and earn 6 figures just on prize money alone.
Heck, there's one guy from France that put his Medical degree on hold because he earned $200k just on prize money.
This excludes sponsorships and team salary which probably is higher than that.
Great. I wasn't expecting a serious answer nor do I care.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Comments
Sounds like pretty much every sport where you can play pickup games with random people. Ever play pickup football (either type), hockey or baseball with random kids from the neighborhood? You get a few who know what they are doing and the rest are adequate to horrible at the sport. However, as long as people are having fun, nobody complains. Then 1-2 people in the group decide to seriously pursue the sport, join a league or team and suddenly they have a problem playing with the pickup players because their expectations are too high.
Does WoT allow you to create your own teams and only play matches as a team? That right there solves the entire problem as you now have control over the quality of the players on your side.
Do they even have World of Tanks sponsored at MLG, as an event? To be honest, I didn't even know that WoT tried to become an e-sport, and in that case; that's silly. But those aren't the ones I watch, nor am I in to. I am into RTS/MoBA/FPS, the games where skill and strategy actually plays a part.
In a tournament MoBA, RTS, or FPS, everyone is on equal footing and has the same power potential as the other players, it's how they chose to use their minds that will allow them to overcome whatever team they get thrown at. Luck has nothing to do with it, sure; throughout the fight there may be a few "ohh damn, he just got so lucky he got away with 1 HP" with an entire team chasing him down. Ultimately though, it's the teams strategy which will achieve the ultimate victory.
You clearly are confused. You "tend to agree" with the statement "Playing video games is not a sport".
And clear many video games (MOBA, .... as discussed before) has no luck elements.
Those 'kids' call themselves 'professional gamers' and earn 6 figures just on prize money alone.
Heck, there's one guy from France that put his Medical degree on hold because he earned $200k just on prize money.
This excludes sponsorships and team salary which probably is higher than that.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Right, it's not a sport.
It's an e-sport. A unique, new designation created expressly to describe what it describes.
The label doesn't even really matter. E-sports are simply Great PVP Games, and that's something gamers could always use more of!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Planetside has had a long history of not understanding e-sports. PS2 is even less suited to it than PS1 was (and if you never heard of Planetside 1 as an e-sport, well...there's a lesson there.) So as far as PS is concerned, there's no chance of it ever becoming a true e-sport. (Which says nothing about whether the new battle isles are fun. They might be. The game just isn't remotely scaled or set up to be an e-sport.)
This is not unlike World of Tanks wanting to become an e-sport, because they've created a game which involves a fairly significant amount of RNG and therefore is a tiny bit too far distanced from skilled play.
E-sports are about creating a Great PVP Game, focused on skilled play, with minimal (or nonexistant) non-skill elements.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Try reading past the first line and it might help you understand what people mean.
Smile
Maybe you're just woefully misinformed, but e-sports are undeniably pretty freaking popular. 12 million daily active players either put it at #1 at the time, or only slightly behind WOW or the top Facebook game. So one single e-sport game is at least the 3rd most played game in the world (probably more like 1st nowadays.)
Most MMOs don't even have the concurrent simultaneous players LoL has just watching the game right now (80k).
Just because it may not overlap with the core MMO demographic doesn't mean there isn't significant overlap in the playerbases. Tons of players (myself included) have anecdotally mentioned playing e-sport games like LoL.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If it's compared to all MMOs and their players than I'm sorry, I still have to disagree with you. I am not judging it's popularity by it's numbers (it wins that category). I am judging it's popularity by it's relevance in comparison to MMOs. Most of the PvP you see in MMOs don't support enough structure or have the kind of mechanics that support thinking or tactical planning and maneuvering (not to even mention that most MMOs are made up of PvE players, not PvPers, so that in itself cuts the demand for e-sports in MMOs).
Thus in my opinion, it's not all that relatively popular to most MMO players.
Smile
HotDogs are popular too. I don't like them in my milkshake though.
Same with 'e-sports' in my MMORPG. There is a place for all things, but an MMORPG is not the place for an E-Sport.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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lol I agree.
It would have been great if the goal was to lull the audience to sleep. Seriously, can you imagine how "action packed" the commentary would be for a game like XI? Watch that video, and try to imagine commentators trying to be high energy and get the crowd involved.
"Oh my goodness! Byakko moved a little bit! Look at that great auto attack!"
The truth is they are treated the same way we treat our movie stars. The main difference between e-sports and typical sports is that e-sports are about 90% mental, and 10% physical. There's very little physical training involved in playing computer games (obviously). A physical sport requires you to be physically strong and quick in most cases. The 'mental' game is prevalent on both sides, but one clearly requires more thinking than the other.
Not even sure what the point of this debate is anymore. E-Sports like anything else is a preference. If you like e-sports then watch it. There's plenty to watch, and enjoy. If not then go do something else! Personally I could care less about football, but show me 2 top tier teams battling it out, and you've got my attention.
Ah, well sure you can almost say with certainty that most MMO players aren't into e-sports. But you couldn't really disagree that e-sports is popular. E-sport popularity is well-documented and obvious, it's just the mix with the MMO crowd is a bit weak.
The reason why is most MMOs are MMORPGs, and all RPGs are (by design) a step away from pure skill gaming. Instead of your performance being 100% derived from your playing skill, it's at least partially (and usually quite strongly) derived from your character progression. It's an intentional thing, done to make gaming more casual (simply do this over and over, and things will be easier.) And it works and appeals broadly (probably to most or all people here.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I turn on the TV and watch Dwight Howard miss free throw after free throw but he still gets paid 20 million a year to play basketball. Why? Because he's 7'1", that doesnt impress me.
But I watch a Starcraft match with Jaedong's 300 APM or a Dota2 match with Dendi scoring a rampage and I'm left a bit in awe because I know no matter how much I could practice I would never be that good.
Are you under the impression that "getting farmed" is something randomly rewarded to players, rather than something earned through skillful play?
I didn't play DOTA nearly as much as I've played LoL, but I'm pretty sure nearly all of the factors in the game were deterministic, meaning player actions (player skill) completely dictate the course of the game with no significant non-skill elements.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
And they have female fans .. just watch any S Korean televised match. They get girls as easy as sports star here in the US.
LOL, Yeah because
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_South_Korea#Traditional_sports
Kite Flying??????????
That is the "traditional" sport. S Korea's national sport is Starcraft.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/gaming.gadgets/07/27/south.korea.starcraft/index.html
Even CNN said so.
"the StarCraft video game series has spawned devotion more akin to professional sports teams."
"Games of large tournaments are broadcast live on television in South Korea."
I am not disputing what you are saying.
What I meant was.....They don't have anything else.
Great. I wasn't expecting a serious answer nor do I care.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville