Originally posted by jonesing22 No, they need to be polished and have good content, including endgame at release. What was the last game to launch with these expectations?
SWTOR? Which is the biggest investment in genre to date, took almost no risks and was forced to change it's business model shortly after launch.
EDIT
May have disregarded the engame comment but nevertheless.
Taking the familiar concepts and making them better it how you truly make a winner. EQ took the foundation of D&D and made it in a true world experience. WoW took what EQ did and enhanced it.
People cry for innovation, but it doesn't last.
What a developer needs to do is, take the classic games and make them better.
Imagine the EQ world, where questing was a minimal task, and putting GW2's dynamic events. Add in WoW's free structure UI, and PVP content. Put the ability to build houses and find a crafting system worth anything...
Originally posted by Baramos79 I am one of the people who are tired of mmos trying to be groundbreaking and wish they would return to their roots instead.
Which roots would they be? DnD? Or are you referring to Ultima Online and the like?
Originally posted by Baramos79 I am one of the people who are tired of mmos trying to be groundbreaking and wish they would return to their roots instead.
Which roots would they be? DnD? Or are you referring to Ultima Online and the like?
Yes, in general they have to do something completely new to be considered good or great now. Doesn't have to be ENTIRELY new or groundbreaking, but it needs to do SOMETHING new, which is why all new mmos are garbage and dying, they do EVERYTHING the same as the one before it.
To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.
Originally posted by Baramos79 I am one of the people who are tired of mmos trying to be groundbreaking and wish they would return to their roots instead.
Which roots would they be? DnD? Or are you referring to Ultima Online and the like?
First and second gen mmorpgs.
Okay well some of them are still around. I hear UO was much better back in the day but there are thousands of emulators and different rule sets available. As for second gen MMOs they are still going strong. I personally don't see the point in creating a new game for the sake of replicating existing games though.
I don't think they need to be groundbreaking. Besides, that is subjective for the most part anyways. I think games and studios that follow their own path, or not do what everyone else is doing, is on the right path to being great. If the MMO does the same thing that many of other MMO's have already done before it, then it's chance of being great a pretty slim. Doesn't mean the game will or will not have a following it's just there are plenty of people who don't like change.
Do mmo's have to have groundbreaking, new, innovative combat to be great?
Do they have to have an incredible story? (to be great)
Does it have to have classes that are different than anything ever seen?
Does a new mmo have to have different controls, completely different UI?
- I believe MMO's need to do many things "very well" to be enjoyable, but everything doesn't have to be cutting edge and ground breaking for an MMO to succeed.
What do you think?
I agree not everything needs to be groundbreaking in an mmo for it to be great, there have been times I've seen certain aspects of mmo's get hammered on that I think are just fine the way they are and shouldn't be changed. It's like if it isn't different it's "bad" - but for some things I think the saying "if it ain't broke don't fix" applies a lot more.
Having said that, however, I think we are in an age where the generic theme park model as a whole has worn out it's welcome with most. And in this case just a few new things or changes isn't really going to cut it. Wildstar - perfect example. Rift was another one. You're putting rift's, the path system, an expanded housing experience and plopping those things on top of the same old recylced cake. After 10 years people more and more want a new cake entirely, not just a few different icings on top.
Originally posted by Baramos79 I am one of the people who are tired of mmos trying to be groundbreaking and wish they would return to their roots instead.
Which roots would they be? DnD? Or are you referring to Ultima Online and the like?
First and second gen mmorpgs.
Okay well some of them are still around. I hear UO was much better back in the day but there are thousands of emulators and different rule sets available. As for second gen MMOs they are still going strong. I personally don't see the point in creating a new game for the sake of replicating existing games though.
I personally don't see the point in a new game trying to be creative and implement new groundbreaking features just for the sake of doing it. Sometimes devs will try so hard to think outside of the box they end up putting themselves back in it, but in a bad way.
Originally posted by Nephelai Yep. Every MMO simply drip feeds us groundhog day. I don't mind the grind what I've come to loathe is repetitive grind and even worse the mind numbingly repetitive grind that is now evolving. Take WoW for example - in vanilla I ground out my level, dungeons for blue sets then raiding. These days you race to end game and grind out the same dailies over and over again.
Your sentence is voluntary, you know.
The judge is willing to offer you time-served amnesty, whenever you want it.
You keep telling him, "No, no, I must keep grinding, got to get that next set," with an addict's twitch. "Here, let me buy another time card and pay another year's sub. How long til the next expansion?"
You auto regurgitated a response that I'm addicted to MMO's because I made an observation on their nature and pointed out the reason why I gave up on them. You obviously have no business experience because only a moron would tell customers "you don't have to buy our product" rather than listening to their feedback and considering it. You see, in the normal world people partake in things they are interested in (and sometimes not) even though it may not fully meet all of their needs. They provide feedback and in some instances things change and in others they don't. They then get to chose a direction. This is how normal, non apathetic people operate they don't just walk away without trying.
I understand though, for some people to feel the need to be a cool hipster internet hero that acts like nothing matters to them. Jim Stark was so 1955.
Do mmo's have to have groundbreaking, new, innovative combat to be great?
Do they have to have an incredible story? (to be great)
Does it have to have classes that are different than anything ever seen?
Does a new mmo have to have different controls, completely different UI?
- I believe MMO's need to do many things "very well" to be enjoyable, but everything doesn't have to be cutting edge and ground breaking for an MMO to succeed.
What do you think?
I believe the answer to those would be "no" to all of them.
When we hear the terms "WoW Clone" and "Gear Treadmill" those are a result of the current state of Themeparks.
But only the current state. Everything on the market we see today that we consider a WoW Clone is a copy of WoW after WOTLK. The point where WoW got real dumbed down. Even WoW itself is suffering from it's own Clone syndrome.
But that is what began WoW's down turn. But what about the design that brought in 10Mil? The harder design. The one where every single thing you were ever able to do was earned and worked for. Every abilty, every skill, every button, every thing.
I know, I've heard it before "But I didn't like the grind" "It took way too long to accomplish anything" "I didn't like walking everywhere before level 40" Etc etc....
Yeah, you didn't like it. But you came back month after month for in some cases, years.
I'd bet that if someone went back to the grass roots and cloned WoW from Vanilla, Using that same formula but adding some of the more recent innovations from games such as Rift and GW2 among others, The game would be a huge success.
Originally posted by jonesing22 No, they need to be polished and have good content, including endgame at release. What was the last game to launch with these expectations?
SWTOR? Which is the biggest investment in genre to date, took almost no risks and was forced to change it's business model shortly after launch.
EDIT
May have disregarded the engame comment but nevertheless.
I hope you'r enot trying to say SWTOR had polish at launch. I quit because I got sick of every instance bugging out and bosses constantly resetting, mobs that would bug and go unkillable and pvp being a jumble of lame broken skills.
That game had zero polish once you left it's story. The only part of the game they seemed to give a shit about. If that game wasn't broken beyond belief once you hit max lvl I might of played it for a lot longer.
Games don't launch with polish anymore. They all seem to think fix it later is acceptable to people.
Originally posted by Baramos79 I am one of the people who are tired of mmos trying to be groundbreaking and wish they would return to their roots instead.
Which roots would they be? DnD? Or are you referring to Ultima Online and the like?
First and second gen mmorpgs.
Okay well some of them are still around. I hear UO was much better back in the day but there are thousands of emulators and different rule sets available. As for second gen MMOs they are still going strong. I personally don't see the point in creating a new game for the sake of replicating existing games though.
I personally don't see the point in a new game trying to be creative and implement new groundbreaking features just for the sake of doing it. Sometimes devs will try so hard to think outside of the box they end up putting themselves back in it, but in a bad way.
Why go to Mars when you can go back to the Moon?
I definitely see the point of pushing boundaries and trying something new.
Originally posted by dgarbini I would say a MMO has to do none of those things to be a hit. Hint developers, look at polish not innovation please. But as we all know the 'innovation' word brings in the investor money for whatever reason. I would say half of games now are made for investors instead of consumers anymore (other industries as well).
Uhhh, you've got that backwards. Innovation drives investors far FAR away.
But, psh, who wants games that are interesting and fun, when we can just play the same WoW clone over and over and over for 8 years. That's what I call fun! Doing the same boring thing every day!
Comments
SWTOR? Which is the biggest investment in genre to date, took almost no risks and was forced to change it's business model shortly after launch.
EDIT
May have disregarded the engame comment but nevertheless.
Evolution > Innovation
Taking the familiar concepts and making them better it how you truly make a winner. EQ took the foundation of D&D and made it in a true world experience. WoW took what EQ did and enhanced it.
People cry for innovation, but it doesn't last.
What a developer needs to do is, take the classic games and make them better.
Imagine the EQ world, where questing was a minimal task, and putting GW2's dynamic events. Add in WoW's free structure UI, and PVP content. Put the ability to build houses and find a crafting system worth anything...
My YouTube MMO PvP Channel
Which roots would they be? DnD? Or are you referring to Ultima Online and the like?
First and second gen mmorpgs.
My YouTube MMO PvP Channel
To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.
Okay well some of them are still around. I hear UO was much better back in the day but there are thousands of emulators and different rule sets available. As for second gen MMOs they are still going strong. I personally don't see the point in creating a new game for the sake of replicating existing games though.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
I agree not everything needs to be groundbreaking in an mmo for it to be great, there have been times I've seen certain aspects of mmo's get hammered on that I think are just fine the way they are and shouldn't be changed. It's like if it isn't different it's "bad" - but for some things I think the saying "if it ain't broke don't fix" applies a lot more.
Having said that, however, I think we are in an age where the generic theme park model as a whole has worn out it's welcome with most. And in this case just a few new things or changes isn't really going to cut it. Wildstar - perfect example. Rift was another one. You're putting rift's, the path system, an expanded housing experience and plopping those things on top of the same old recylced cake. After 10 years people more and more want a new cake entirely, not just a few different icings on top.
I personally don't see the point in a new game trying to be creative and implement new groundbreaking features just for the sake of doing it. Sometimes devs will try so hard to think outside of the box they end up putting themselves back in it, but in a bad way.
My YouTube MMO PvP Channel
You auto regurgitated a response that I'm addicted to MMO's because I made an observation on their nature and pointed out the reason why I gave up on them. You obviously have no business experience because only a moron would tell customers "you don't have to buy our product" rather than listening to their feedback and considering it. You see, in the normal world people partake in things they are interested in (and sometimes not) even though it may not fully meet all of their needs. They provide feedback and in some instances things change and in others they don't. They then get to chose a direction. This is how normal, non apathetic people operate they don't just walk away without trying.
I understand though, for some people to feel the need to be a cool hipster internet hero that acts like nothing matters to them. Jim Stark was so 1955.
I agree
I hope you'r enot trying to say SWTOR had polish at launch. I quit because I got sick of every instance bugging out and bosses constantly resetting, mobs that would bug and go unkillable and pvp being a jumble of lame broken skills.
That game had zero polish once you left it's story. The only part of the game they seemed to give a shit about. If that game wasn't broken beyond belief once you hit max lvl I might of played it for a lot longer.
Games don't launch with polish anymore. They all seem to think fix it later is acceptable to people.
Why go to Mars when you can go back to the Moon?
I definitely see the point of pushing boundaries and trying something new.
Uhhh, you've got that backwards. Innovation drives investors far FAR away.
But, psh, who wants games that are interesting and fun, when we can just play the same WoW clone over and over and over for 8 years. That's what I call fun! Doing the same boring thing every day!
“In our time no one has the conception of what is great. It is up to me to show them.” - Napoleon Bonaparte
( I think a good game builds upon good games in careful iterations, but a great game requires a visionary who expects to change the world )
Good implementation, attention to details, and polish are probably way more important than being groundbreaking.
Like Smedley?