Best gaming communities that I've come across have forced grouping. EQ1, FF11 and EVE are the games that spring to mind. In communities that play together are better than those who play apart.
The topic is not about how to integrate people with disabilities and language barriers into a community Waterlilly.
It is for people like me who play on a European server. Our guild has people from all over Europe, and few of them have English as their native tongue. If we forced voice chat on those people, many people would not be able to integrate properly.
We try to limit guild chat to English, and we try to limit voice chat, so everyone is able to understand each other.
The topic is about community, and people being able to communicate with each other effectively, is a big part of this.
If we forced voice chat, not only would many people be unhappy in the guild, it would severely limit our recruitment pool.
Try reading my entire post Lily. These are not new problems concerning community. Or did disabled people only begin playing MMO's recently? Same goes for languages.
I repeat, a non issue in this thread. Deal with it. Or start another post if it is such a big issue for you.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
In general, I think voice chat is essential to certain parts of MMO game play. Being an old school MMO player myself, however, I have to say, as far as community as a whole is concerned, it can be detrimental as well. I'm sure many will see this as being controversial, but in many social situations, voice chat usually aids in the formation of cliques. Groups become so dead set on grouping with certain people that guilds as a whole can suffer. "We're waiting for to log on, sorry no room in the group". I've seen this happen far too often. People become alienated. Then you have the clique drama, one person quits the game, then it becomes becomes like a domino effect. People become attached to certain people, many substitute voice chat as their sole source of social interaction with people (irl). It become more than just chatting about what you're doing in the game. That's just my psychological view though.
People forming clicks and being selective on who they invite/don't invite to a group has nothing to do with VOIP. It has to do with people forming bonds and then wanting to play with the people they already know instead of looking to meet new people.
This happens regardless of VOIP or typing based communication. It happened all the time in games like LoK, UO and EQ, where VOIP was completely absent.
You just mentioned one of the main points of my post. People these days rarely meet new people because they're so used to grouping with their voice chat infused cliques. There were cliques in EQ1, sure, but people were more welcoming to outsiders because they weren't as bonded by the voice chat which formed the clique in the first place. Voice chat isn't going anywhere, it's a technological advancement for sure, but I don't think voice chat is as essential to community as some are making it out to be. Not wanting to meet new players and becoming isolated to one or a very small group of people because of voice chat is extremely detrimental to community though.
I recently overheard an ingame conversation between 2 players where one player was being invited to the clan. The guy said we only have one rule, and that is that you have to use voice chat. And the guy said ok , no problem. And I thought ok for you but that would be a deal breaker for me.
So obviously people feel differently about it. But I don't see how you can regulate it either. Its like telling someone you can't play the game the way you like. And of course you can't take it out of the game either, as there are ways around that.
So it is there, I feel if people want to use it that is their choice. Obviously not for everyone but what in an MMO is?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Voice chat is not the key and i'm surprised this thread has devolved into that. Seriously think for a second of how inconvenient voice chat is to the average gamer. They have wives, kids, dogs, cats and a plethora of other things to deal with, they really need "you" yelling in their ear when they are trying to escape reality.
Voice chat is no solution. Good game design that incorporates all types of gaming environment is. A way for people to just meet at random occurrences. Take for example you happen to be doing a zone area and need help and low and behold their "happen" to be people there. I want to enjoy games socially without having to have real relationships with these people I do not know nor want to know "at least the majority".
This thread has lost its focus and I still think this is the best comment:
Originally posted by Waterlily
It's real, the communities in MMO are far far worse than they used to be.
Everquest had a few things going for it that drove the community:
-the gameplay was slow and tab based, you chatted during combat, none of this action button mashing
-you camped during combat, you didn't run around looking for mobs, you made a static camp and pulled mobs to it, which allowed you to chat <- this is a major reason I think
-massive amounts of downtime while regaining health or mana compared to today's standards
-you were forced to group with most classes
-there was a server chat, not just a local chat
-you were severely punished if you died, which made you seek out help
-you had no AH like in WoW in the beginning of EQ, you were forced to talk to others if you wanted to have an item
-the gameplay in early EQ was easy and simple, it was slow and time-consuming and it severely punished death, but it was easy to play for anyone
-travel was slow in a huge world, you had to run for miles and often stayed at a camp for days, you were forced to interact with people
There's more reasons, but I think those were the main ones.
In general, I think voice chat is essential to certain parts of MMO game play. Being an old school MMO player myself, however, I have to say, as far as community as a whole is concerned, it can be detrimental as well. I'm sure many will see this as being controversial, but in many social situations, voice chat usually aids in the formation of cliques. Groups become so dead set on grouping with certain people that guilds as a whole can suffer. "We're waiting for to log on, sorry no room in the group". I've seen this happen far too often. People become alienated. Then you have the clique drama, one person quits the game, then it becomes becomes like a domino effect. People become attached to certain people, many substitute voice chat as their sole source of social interaction with people (irl). It become more than just chatting about what you're doing in the game. That's just my psychological view though.
People forming clicks and being selective on who they invite/don't invite to a group has nothing to do with VOIP. It has to do with people forming bonds and then wanting to play with the people they already know instead of looking to meet new people.
This happens regardless of VOIP or typing based communication. It happened all the time in games like LoK, UO and EQ, where VOIP was completely absent.
You just mentioned one of the main points of my post. People these days rarely meet new people because they're so used to grouping with their voice chat infused cliques. There were cliques in EQ1, sure, but people were more welcoming to outsiders because they weren't as bonded by the voice chat which formed the clique in the first place. Voice chat isn't going anywhere, it's a technological advancement for sure, but I don't think voice chat is as essential to community as some are making it out to be. Not wanting to meet new players and becoming isolated to one or a very small group of people because of voice chat is extremely detrimental to community though.
My point was that you're wrong, because the bonds were formed and selective introverted groups were common even without VOIP. I'm saying that you're relating two unrelated things.
You memory is hazy or you're just looking back on EQ through rose colored glasses. In Legends of Kesmai, Ultima Online and EQ, there were no commonly used VOIP services. Everything was text communication, and many, many people had static groups of friends that they exclusively played with.
It's a part of human nature, not a symptom of VOIP use.
Isn't this the 338902339072nd time we've answered this question in one form or another?
It was much easier to build communities back in the early days of MMOs simply because it was a niche audience of people from relatively similar backgrounds and interests.Now the genre is mainstream and it's open season.
And disabilities are a non issue here. Obviously we are discriminating against the blind by typing and not using voice.
How are disabilities a non-issue, plenty of people who play MMO do have hearing or speaking disabilities.
For them it is an issue if you use voice chat in a guild and don't integrate them properly into the guild.
Same thing can be said for European servers, which have to deal with people who's native language isn't English, trying to integrate people from Europe into a guild is much more complex if you use voice chat. While writing is very straightforward, speaking is not, and it's extremely unenjoyable to force someone to speak English when they game.
My native tongue is not English, and while I don't mind speaking in English if necessary, I loathe doing this in games. Do people who speak English natively enjoy speaking in French or German? I doubt it.
MMO need to take these things into account and so do guilds if they wan to be successful, especially on a European server.
I agree with you, this is my situation, i dont speak and write english very well so i prefer a guild that dont force a member to use a voice chat...but on the other hand i understand if a guild chose to use a voice chat, cause if you re inside a difficult istance is more easy and fast for the officers to coordinate people and i cant pretend that all guild mates have to write in chat just for me.
I have this problem cause i would to play with my old EQ guild (my first guild in a mmorpg) that i join approx 13 years ago (english guild)...when i start to play EQ in 1999 there s no voice chat so you make all things in game using chat, and i dont have problem to understand english test. Will see what they want to do in EQN.
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it" -Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
P2P is the cure for your community sickness , 10$ (up to 15$ for extreme cases) a month is just what the doctor ordered! You get a way better community off minecraft then most F2P MMO titles listed on this site combined.
Think about it. Players who played "way back when" wanted this, a good community. Most of them understood what it meant.
Now, multiply that old population tenfold. Now you have players that never wanted this kind of gameplay in the first place and thus never played, or tried and left the old MMORPGs. We have players that "just don't have the time" to play involved games like the old ones. If I don't have 3 hours to see a movie, I don't go. I don't expect to see it condensed into my personal time frame.
Are they a thing of the past? Yes. They could come back, but the numbers won't be near what they are now. I don't think many companies want those smaller numbers anymore. They have seen "what could be" and perpetually grab for those numbers with the current playerbase.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Think about it. Players who played "way back when" wanted this, a good community. Most of them understood what it meant.
Now, multiply that old population tenfold. Now you have players that never wanted this kind of gameplay in the first place and thus never played, or tried and left the old MMORPGs. We have players that "just don't have the time" to play involved games like the old ones. If I don't have 3 hours to see a movie, I don't go. I don't expect to see it condensed into my personal time frame.
Are they a thing of the past? Yes. They could come back, but the numbers won't be near what they are now. I don't think many companies want those smaller numbers anymore. They have seen "what could be" and perpetually grab for those numbers with the current playerbase.
That's true I'm sure but They all grab for the same bar and they all seem to be failing at it.
I'm sure lots of people have moved on and don't have the time and many ( most ) are just casuals or people that don't want a game like that, but for as many people that grew up or out, there are others that have never had the chance to take part in a modern version of what the good old games were.
Companies that try for wow or nothing are ending up with nothing. Some of them at some point have to look at what eve has done and see that making a game for 400-500k people is going to net you a bigger success than trying for 10 million and ending up with far far less.
Isn't this the 338902339072nd time we've answered this question in one form or another?
It was much easier to build communities back in the early days of MMOs simply because it was a niche audience of people from relatively similar backgrounds and interests.Now the genre is mainstream and it's open season.
BINGO! Someone is making sense. And I cant believe the whole conversation has been reduced to using voice chat vs. not using voice chat,
Comments
Try reading my entire post Lily. These are not new problems concerning community. Or did disabled people only begin playing MMO's recently? Same goes for languages.
I repeat, a non issue in this thread. Deal with it. Or start another post if it is such a big issue for you.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
You just mentioned one of the main points of my post. People these days rarely meet new people because they're so used to grouping with their voice chat infused cliques. There were cliques in EQ1, sure, but people were more welcoming to outsiders because they weren't as bonded by the voice chat which formed the clique in the first place. Voice chat isn't going anywhere, it's a technological advancement for sure, but I don't think voice chat is as essential to community as some are making it out to be. Not wanting to meet new players and becoming isolated to one or a very small group of people because of voice chat is extremely detrimental to community though.
I recently overheard an ingame conversation between 2 players where one player was being invited to the clan. The guy said we only have one rule, and that is that you have to use voice chat. And the guy said ok , no problem. And I thought ok for you but that would be a deal breaker for me.
So obviously people feel differently about it. But I don't see how you can regulate it either. Its like telling someone you can't play the game the way you like. And of course you can't take it out of the game either, as there are ways around that.
So it is there, I feel if people want to use it that is their choice. Obviously not for everyone but what in an MMO is?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Voice chat is not the key and i'm surprised this thread has devolved into that. Seriously think for a second of how inconvenient voice chat is to the average gamer. They have wives, kids, dogs, cats and a plethora of other things to deal with, they really need "you" yelling in their ear when they are trying to escape reality.
Voice chat is no solution. Good game design that incorporates all types of gaming environment is. A way for people to just meet at random occurrences. Take for example you happen to be doing a zone area and need help and low and behold their "happen" to be people there. I want to enjoy games socially without having to have real relationships with these people I do not know nor want to know "at least the majority".
This thread has lost its focus and I still think this is the best comment:
It's all about game design, period.
They need to make it so you can build a reputation with players .
if you group with players you never see again you can't build a rep.
Unless the game allows you to give + or - rep to players and the game
is smart enough to group you with those people again.
Guilds do most of that already but i think pugging could do this
as well using smarter systems
My point was that you're wrong, because the bonds were formed and selective introverted groups were common even without VOIP. I'm saying that you're relating two unrelated things.
You memory is hazy or you're just looking back on EQ through rose colored glasses. In Legends of Kesmai, Ultima Online and EQ, there were no commonly used VOIP services. Everything was text communication, and many, many people had static groups of friends that they exclusively played with.
It's a part of human nature, not a symptom of VOIP use.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
Isn't this the 338902339072nd time we've answered this question in one form or another?
It was much easier to build communities back in the early days of MMOs simply because it was a niche audience of people from relatively similar backgrounds and interests.Now the genre is mainstream and it's open season.
I agree with you, this is my situation, i dont speak and write english very well so i prefer a guild that dont force a member to use a voice chat...but on the other hand i understand if a guild chose to use a voice chat, cause if you re inside a difficult istance is more easy and fast for the officers to coordinate people and i cant pretend that all guild mates have to write in chat just for me.
I have this problem cause i would to play with my old EQ guild (my first guild in a mmorpg) that i join approx 13 years ago (english guild)...when i start to play EQ in 1999 there s no voice chat so you make all things in game using chat, and i dont have problem to understand english test. Will see what they want to do in EQN.
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
Think about it. Players who played "way back when" wanted this, a good community. Most of them understood what it meant.
Now, multiply that old population tenfold. Now you have players that never wanted this kind of gameplay in the first place and thus never played, or tried and left the old MMORPGs. We have players that "just don't have the time" to play involved games like the old ones. If I don't have 3 hours to see a movie, I don't go. I don't expect to see it condensed into my personal time frame.
Are they a thing of the past? Yes. They could come back, but the numbers won't be near what they are now. I don't think many companies want those smaller numbers anymore. They have seen "what could be" and perpetually grab for those numbers with the current playerbase.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
That's true I'm sure but They all grab for the same bar and they all seem to be failing at it.
I'm sure lots of people have moved on and don't have the time and many ( most ) are just casuals or people that don't want a game like that, but for as many people that grew up or out, there are others that have never had the chance to take part in a modern version of what the good old games were.
Companies that try for wow or nothing are ending up with nothing. Some of them at some point have to look at what eve has done and see that making a game for 400-500k people is going to net you a bigger success than trying for 10 million and ending up with far far less.
BINGO! Someone is making sense. And I cant believe the whole conversation has been reduced to using voice chat vs. not using voice chat,
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online