1- Devs mindset => The devs with more inclination towards sandbox mmos have a same way of think things that makes they pursuit the maximum of "mechanical realism" in their works. So pvp with artificial and unjustified "invulnerabilities" passes little through their heads. Their focus to prevent abuse is more in creating punishments (trying to imitate the reality) instead of that way.
That reason above can explain the sensation of some PVEers that some pvp focused mmos have more "cool things" (aside pvp, ofc) than your pve focused mmos they are playing. As a example i will mention the AI of the npcs (mobs) in DFUW: It's almost a consensus that DF has the best mob AI of all mmos. And that is paradoxical, since DF is a pvp focused mmo and "shouldn't" invest so much in mobs. But that investment is only a indirect consequence of the devs mindset of trying to make realistic features. I think if the DF developers had the Archeage or even the EVE's budget, they would make a awesome sandbox.
Anyone who says Darkfall AI is good, is downright ignorant.
I've played the game. The pathfinding is horrible and the mobs constantly rubber band. Sometimes they won't even attack you. Other times they will attack you from a mile away while you're standing behind a building or rock. They don't call for help or attack in groups. They don't roam random areas. All they do is run around back and forth a few times, change from ranged to melee when they get close, and spam attack you with an occasional spell that most likely will not increase their chances of killing you.
]
Wrong several times over.
Different mobs have different AIs. Zombies can't see during the day but they can hear you. At night they can see you from a mile off. Goblins run back to their camps to get help right away, other mobs do not. Many mobs wander around and roam certain areas, like the dragons, the kraken, and a lot of the high end mobs. The humanoid mobs will strafe and juke and dodge to get out of the way of projectiles. Melee based mobs will try to box you into a corner.
You must not have played any darkfall.
I've played Darkfall (including early beta) and I can only agree with DAS1337. The supposed "superior AI" aventurine was bragging about is definitely not superior at all. All the things you post are supposed to be awesome on paper, but definitely don't work that way in game, except the roaming bosses, but then a ton of games have those and that's no superior AI. PvE in Darkfall is one of the worse I've seen in a MMO, hell, combat was better in the 17+ years old Ultima Online (which at least was a true sandbox).
I think the AI is fine. the ANIMATIONS are kind of dull but that's just cause the whole game leaves something to be desired in the "polish" department. A lot of mobs move in different ways and are really hard to hit (damn grungrocs, I'm looking at you).
Neither of you are correct or wrong for that matter but you need to remember Narius that LoL and WoT have higher burn of players than sandbox MMOs do even if the latter has a smaller playerbase it can be just as profitable ergo you can say that they want something new in whatever form that may be (MOBA, WoT type, survival game like DayZ, Co- Op RPG like Cube World or a form of MMO or another).
sure .. i didn't list everything. I can throw in online ARPG (D3 sold 14.5M copies ..), shooters with online components (the new "share world" shooter like Destiny).
The point is that getting sick of wow (and themepark MMO) does not equate wanting sandbox. In fact, why return to old ideas? Weren't the market sick of UO & EQ, before it moves to WOW and similar games?
Well the thing is they're kind of opposite ends of the spectrum. There probably isn't going to be an unrelated 3rd type of game to snatch up MMO players. In terms of MMOs you can either have less restrictions or more restrictions, aka themepark or sandbox.
So it's probably pretty cyclical. Start out with super sandbox games like UO, people want to have their hands held a little and more quests etc, then as the content runs out for those games, they start to realize that the gameplay is pretty shallow and go back to prefering sandboxes.
That or the super low barriers to entry for games like WoW (considering how much it holds your hand through process) may bring a lot of people into the mmo scene and those people may slowly start to want a more organic game. Enter: sandbox games.
Jeremy has it pretty well. Human tastes in things like fashion and entertainment tend to be fairly cyclical. New things always come along but quite often old ones return time and again in popularity, especialy when you are dealing with things that are more conceptual in nature.
Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists.
"Sandbox" is a basic concept or style in games. It seems like it's poised to come back into fashion again.....at least that seems to be the perception among alot of Dev's. It's doubtfull that it will look exactly the same as the old sandboxes but like so many other things, as a basic concept, it has legs.
its pretty obvious, we dont need any PVE games you carebears have world of warcraft no1 does pve raid content better than they do. the PvP centric genre is still up for grabs. Mind you I am loving DFUW right now but I do look forward to eqnext espoecialy if pvp is the focus but we dont actualy know yet we need more info about the game and I believe we will get that aug 2nd
Jeremy has it pretty well. Human tastes in things like fashion and entertainment tend to be fairly cyclical. New things always come along but quite often old ones return time and again in popularity, especialy when you are dealing with things that are more conceptual in nature.
Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists.
"Sandbox" is a basic concept or style in games. It seems like it's poised to come back into fashion again.....at least that seems to be the perception among alot of Dev's. It's doubtfull that it will look exactly the same as the old sandboxes but like so many other things, as a basic concept, it has legs.
Pretty sure it's pointless to argue with him, he's always right regardless how wrong he is (he compared EVE-Online to Star Wars The Old Republic and called EVE a worse failure than it based on age alone regardless of IP clout, developer clout, market campaign and the sheer cult following of the jedi within the Star Wars universe... ffs there's even a Jedi Church nowadays).
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 @NariusJeremy has it pretty well. Human tastes in things like fashion and entertainment tend to be fairly cyclical. New things always come along but quite often old ones return time and again in popularity, especialy when you are dealing with things that are more conceptual in nature.Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists."Sandbox" is a basic concept or style in games. It seems like it's poised to come back into fashion again.....at least that seems to be the perception among alot of Dev's. It's doubtfull that it will look exactly the same as the old sandboxes but like so many other things, as a basic concept, it has legs.
In any event, in the context of this discussion, it's not that relevant. One of the few, clear statements that's been made about EQN is that it will be a sandbox. Now, exactly what that means is anyone's guess, but it will be a sandbox. SOE is a AAA developer and EQ is a AAA property. SOE wouldn't spend the money on Smedley's insanity if they didn't think it wouldn't return them some money. More so than any other sandbox game running, EQN will be the proof of concept for sandbox MMORPGs.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So it's probably pretty cyclical. Start out with super sandbox games like UO, people want to have their hands held a little and more quests etc, then as the content runs out for those games, they start to realize that the gameplay is pretty shallow and go back to prefering sandboxes.
Probably? How do you know that? How do you it is not like locked room mystery that never makes a come back?
Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists.
And i would say you are cherry picking your example. There are plenty of stuff not coming back (yet).
So it's probably pretty cyclical. Start out with super sandbox games like UO, people want to have their hands held a little and more quests etc, then as the content runs out for those games, they start to realize that the gameplay is pretty shallow and go back to prefering sandboxes.
Probably? How do you know that? How do you it is not like locked room mystery that never makes a come back?
Some people are impossible to please. If you like I can claim to know this for a fact. But instead I'm being honest and saying it's "probably" cyclical. And I'm saying that because why wouldn't it be? There is undoubtedly (though some people here have doubted it) a resurgence in sandbox games coming down the pipe... and notice how I said a REsurgence, as in it has happened before. Sandbox games and games that are difficult and unforgiving were more popular before themepark games took over. Now themepark games are falling out of fashion and people are looking for more sandbox games.
If you want something more concrete, look at how many sandbox games have been funded by kickstarter. Probably lot more now than a few years ago.
What we need is quality games, not more of anything. We need games that are actually fun to play and tell us we don't have to pay for things but we do because we love the game so much. We need to be driven by games that make us want to play them, not through flashy effects or instant action or any of this nonsense.
The reason why some games just stick in our heads as being the best game ever or the standard you hold up all upcoming games to is mostly based on the Quantity VS. Quality discussion.
You cannot argue with the quantity of games being released now to say 10 years ago has grown exponentially. This is based on the fact that gaming is now known as a business. All you need is the right tools, development kits, money, and a good set of developers to set up an MMORPG as you want it to be. It's quite literally made it to the point where game companies probably make more money than we could ever dream of having. However, if you look at the history of games, the past has been more about making something you dream of and making money is something you achieve when you reach a certain level of success.
MMORPGs are now streamlined, optimized and perfected for profit instead of having open-minds, a solid idea and finding the right people to get the job done. Businesses like Aeria, Gameforge, Zynga, and Others have taken the model and serialized it to the point where nobody even sees the games for what they really are. MMORPGs are business propositions, success is based on how many people buy things before they leave the game meaning the exit point for users is literally calculated and anticipated, instead of being works of art, where there is a fragile balance of making the masses happy by keeping them coming back for more and attaining your goal. It used to be about innovating instead of seeing what little innovation you can get away without the buyers noticing.
PvP and PvE should be irrelevant to the success of a game. The overall game should make people want to play it and spend money of their own free will.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift. I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough. I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
Jeremy has it pretty well. Human tastes in things like fashion and entertainment tend to be fairly cyclical. New things always come along but quite often old ones return time and again in popularity, especialy when you are dealing with things that are more conceptual in nature.
Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists.
"Sandbox" is a basic concept or style in games. It seems like it's poised to come back into fashion again.....at least that seems to be the perception among alot of Dev's. It's doubtfull that it will look exactly the same as the old sandboxes but like so many other things, as a basic concept, it has legs.
In any event, in the context of this discussion, it's not that relevant. One of the few, clear statements that's been made about EQN is that it will be a sandbox. Now, exactly what that means is anyone's guess, but it will be a sandbox. SOE is a AAA developer and EQ is a AAA property. SOE wouldn't spend the money on Smedley's insanity if they didn't think it wouldn't return them some money. More so than any other sandbox game running, EQN will be the proof of concept for sandbox MMORPGs.
Actually not even that is clear. I think what he actually said was "sandbox style" which is even more vague.
Your right though, they would not make it if they did not believe they could make profit from it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by GrumpyMel2@NariusJeremy has it pretty well. Human tastes in things like fashion and entertainment tend to be fairly cyclical. New things always come along but quite often old ones return time and again in popularity, especialy when you are dealing with things that are more conceptual in nature.Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists."Sandbox" is a basic concept or style in games. It seems like it's poised to come back into fashion again.....at least that seems to be the perception among alot of Dev's. It's doubtfull that it will look exactly the same as the old sandboxes but like so many other things, as a basic concept, it has legs.
In any event, in the context of this discussion, it's not that relevant. One of the few, clear statements that's been made about EQN is that it will be a sandbox. Now, exactly what that means is anyone's guess, but it will be a sandbox. SOE is a AAA developer and EQ is a AAA property. SOE wouldn't spend the money on Smedley's insanity if they didn't think it wouldn't return them some money. More so than any other sandbox game running, EQN will be the proof of concept for sandbox MMORPGs.Actually not even that is clear. I think what he actually said was "sandbox style" which is even more vague.
Your right though, they would not make it if they did not believe they could make profit from it.
SMEEEEEDLEEEEEEEEEY!
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2@NariusJeremy has it pretty well. Human tastes in things like fashion and entertainment tend to be fairly cyclical. New things always come along but quite often old ones return time and again in popularity, especialy when you are dealing with things that are more conceptual in nature.Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists."Sandbox" is a basic concept or style in games. It seems like it's poised to come back into fashion again.....at least that seems to be the perception among alot of Dev's. It's doubtfull that it will look exactly the same as the old sandboxes but like so many other things, as a basic concept, it has legs.
In any event, in the context of this discussion, it's not that relevant. One of the few, clear statements that's been made about EQN is that it will be a sandbox. Now, exactly what that means is anyone's guess, but it will be a sandbox. SOE is a AAA developer and EQ is a AAA property. SOE wouldn't spend the money on Smedley's insanity if they didn't think it wouldn't return them some money. More so than any other sandbox game running, EQN will be the proof of concept for sandbox MMORPGs.
Actually not even that is clear. I think what he actually said was "sandbox style" which is even more vague.
Your right though, they would not make it if they did not believe they could make profit from it.
Originally posted by madazz Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.
Er, the opposite is the case.
Minecraft has PvP. Eve has PvP. SWG had PvP. AC has PvP. UO has PvP. Shadowbane had PvP. Virtually every sandbox has PvP.
For one, you brought up Minecraft, doesnt count. Sure it has some pretty cool multiplayer aspects, but its not really an MMO. Though from what I read its damn close when a server is set up for it.
SWG did not have open PvP. It was optional. So that one is ruled out.
UO has ONE shard out of a dozen or so that is open PvP. PvP is optional in UO. Shadowbane doesnt exist anymore....
Originally posted by DavisFlight Originally posted by madazz Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.
Er, the opposite is the case.
Minecraft has PvP. Eve has PvP. SWG had PvP. AC has PvP. UO has PvP. Shadowbane had PvP. Virtually every sandbox has PvP.
For one, you brought up Minecraft, doesnt count. Sure it has some pretty cool multiplayer aspects, but its not really an MMO. Though from what I read its damn close when a server is set up for it.
SWG did not have open PvP. It was optional. So that one is ruled out.
UO has ONE shard out of a dozen or so that is open PvP. PvP is optional in UO. Shadowbane doesnt exist anymore....
Re-read what was said. The first guy said sandbox games have NO pvp. Then Davis pointed out sandbox games that do have pvp. Then you came in and said they dont have OPEN pvp. They still had pvp.
Pvp is an innately sandbox feature. Open pvp even more so. Open pvp with loot even more than that.
Some people are impossible to please. If you like I can claim to know this for a fact. But instead I'm being honest and saying it's "probably" cyclical. And I'm saying that because why wouldn't it be? There is undoubtedly (though some people here have doubted it) a resurgence in sandbox games coming down the pipe... and notice how I said a REsurgence, as in it has happened before. Sandbox games and games that are difficult and unforgiving were more popular before themepark games took over. Now themepark games are falling out of fashion and people are looking for more sandbox games.
If you want something more concrete, look at how many sandbox games have been funded by kickstarter. Probably lot more now than a few years ago.
I don't disagree themeparks are falling out of fashion. I just don't agree that people want sandbox. May be they don't even want MMO anymore.
Actually how many sandbox MMO are funded by KS? Tell me. 1, 5, 10? You know that KS funded is not the same as being produced, nor that the end product will be successful, right? There are all sort of odd ball thing being funded on KS. Don't tell me that is where the market is going in every case.
Originally posted by madazz Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.
you are kidding, right? name me 1 sandbox made in last 10 years that doesnt have PVP.
more than that - at least name me one which doesnt have open pvp.
i can name you the oposite:
xsyon
MO
DF
eve
age of wulin
archage (not sure if it is already out in asia or only in beta)
salem
and i proly forgot some
Ryzom
A tale in the desert
The Repopulation ( PVE and PVP servers, will be released late this year or early next)
Fallen Earth (has PVP zones but those are for guild warfare stuff, you don't lose anything by not going there if you want to experience all that there is in PVE terms)
Wurm Online (PVE only servers)
Citadel of Sorcery (no mention of OW PVP by what I read)
Asheron's Call 1
Starport
Firefall
Needed only one? There are more out there than these.
Originally posted by jdlamson75 Every themepark out there is primarily based around PvE. Now the PvE crowd wants dibs on the sandboxes, too. Want, want, want. Go raid a dragon lair or something and stay out of my sandbox. Thank you.
That doesn't make any sense. It's just like arguing there's no need for quality seafood restaurants in a town just because there are already dozens of quality meat serving ones.
I'm sure no theme park player would mind if there were more PvP centric games if in return they also had access to quality more PvE centric sandbox games which aren't mindless gank fests.
It makes just about as much sense as the theme of this thread, which is none at all.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Dihoru Originally posted by BenediktOriginally posted by madazzMost sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.
you are kidding, right? name me 1 sandbox made in last 10 years that doesnt have PVP.more than that - at least name me one which doesnt have open pvp.i can name you the oposite:xsyonMODFeveage of wulinarchage (not sure if it is already out in asia or only in beta)salemand i proly forgot someRyzom
A tale in the desert
The Repopulation ( PVE and PVP servers, will be released late this year or early next)
Fallen Earth (has PVP zones but those are for guild warfare stuff, you don't lose anything by not going there if you want to experience all that there is in PVE terms)
Wurm Online (PVE only servers)
Citadel of Sorcery (no mention of OW PVP by what I read)
Asheron's Call 1
Starport
Firefall
Needed only one? There are more out there than these.
Are those no pvp, period, or no open world/FFA PvP? Because I'm pretty sure it's possible to at least flag yourself for PvP in Fallen Earth and the Repopulation. I just want to be sure I'm reading your post right.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by madazzMost sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.
you are kidding, right? name me 1 sandbox made in last 10 years that doesnt have PVP.more than that - at least name me one which doesnt have open pvp.i can name you the oposite:xsyonMODFeveage of wulinarchage (not sure if it is already out in asia or only in beta)salemand i proly forgot some
Ryzom
A tale in the desert
The Repopulation ( PVE and PVP servers, will be released late this year or early next)
Fallen Earth (has PVP zones but those are for guild warfare stuff, you don't lose anything by not going there if you want to experience all that there is in PVE terms)
Wurm Online (PVE only servers)
Citadel of Sorcery (no mention of OW PVP by what I read)
Asheron's Call 1
Starport
Firefall
Needed only one? There are more out there than these.
Are those no pvp, period, or no open world/FFA PvP? Because I'm pretty sure it's possible to at least flag yourself for PvP in Fallen Earth and the Repopulation. I just want to be sure I'm reading your post right.
He must mean no open world pvp because I can confirm at least some of those games indeed have pvp.
Originally posted by madazz Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.
you are kidding, right? name me 1 sandbox made in last 10 years that doesnt have PVP.
more than that - at least name me one which doesnt have open pvp.
i can name you the oposite:
xsyon
MO
DF
eve
age of wulin
archage (not sure if it is already out in asia or only in beta)
salem
and i proly forgot some
seriously? do we have to go through this again? in 1 thread it was not enough?
Ryzom
i am not sure i would call ryzom a sandbox - you cannt affect the world at all
A tale in the desert
tale in the desert is completely special kind of game, it doesnt have not only pvp, but also not pve, no combat at all
The Repopulation ( PVE and PVP servers, will be released late this year or early next)
not released yet
Fallen Earth (has PVP zones but those are for guild warfare stuff, you don't lose anything by not going there if you want to experience all that there is in PVE terms)
definitelly not a sandbox
Wurm Online (PVE only servers)
true, but was originally released as ffa pvp game, and still development gives more features to pvp servers
Citadel of Sorcery (no mention of OW PVP by what I read)
not out, and i am not sure if ever will
Asheron's Call 1
didnt play AC1, only AC2, which isnt a sandbox, but i specifically asked for games from last 10 years, which AC1 definitelly isnt
Starport
never heard of this game, but from what i read on their homepage, it is same case as wurm - game made primarily as open pvp game
Firefall
not out yet and it is fps, not an rpg, also not sure if i would call it a sandbox
Needed only one? There are more out there than these.
Here's my take... you can't make a sandbox without making a nodd to pvp. That said people should be allowed a choice and I think that any game looking to be more than niche needs to make sure that players can avoid pvp if they wish to do so. There's the easy ways.. basically make pvp/pve servers... thing is when playing these sorts of games you need all types and I see a lot of games going towards single server options and there's the as of yet unfound perfect balance. I think the answer is there.. and I don't think it's an all out pve sandbox. It might be that say you could create a guild focused solely on such and such. Pretty much marking you as neutrals in the game of thrones being bandied about. Nowadays any game that releases without pvp is considered unfinished. Look at SWTOR.. and RIFT both games got more than expected demand for pvp and while pve players out number pvp players... there's a lot of pve players that like to pvp here and there. I don't have an answer but it hits me as a mistake to go back to the days of pve only games and believe it or not telling me I can go play eve (or an ancient game like ultima online) when I'd rather play something recent is about as helpfull as me telling pve players to just go play minecraft. There has to be a happy middle ground somewhere and I think some dev will find it.
Comments
I think the AI is fine. the ANIMATIONS are kind of dull but that's just cause the whole game leaves something to be desired in the "polish" department. A lot of mobs move in different ways and are really hard to hit (damn grungrocs, I'm looking at you).
Well the thing is they're kind of opposite ends of the spectrum. There probably isn't going to be an unrelated 3rd type of game to snatch up MMO players. In terms of MMOs you can either have less restrictions or more restrictions, aka themepark or sandbox.
So it's probably pretty cyclical. Start out with super sandbox games like UO, people want to have their hands held a little and more quests etc, then as the content runs out for those games, they start to realize that the gameplay is pretty shallow and go back to prefering sandboxes.
That or the super low barriers to entry for games like WoW (considering how much it holds your hand through process) may bring a lot of people into the mmo scene and those people may slowly start to want a more organic game. Enter: sandbox games.
@Narius
Jeremy has it pretty well. Human tastes in things like fashion and entertainment tend to be fairly cyclical. New things always come along but quite often old ones return time and again in popularity, especialy when you are dealing with things that are more conceptual in nature.
Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists.
"Sandbox" is a basic concept or style in games. It seems like it's poised to come back into fashion again.....at least that seems to be the perception among alot of Dev's. It's doubtfull that it will look exactly the same as the old sandboxes but like so many other things, as a basic concept, it has legs.
Pretty sure it's pointless to argue with him, he's always right regardless how wrong he is (he compared EVE-Online to Star Wars The Old Republic and called EVE a worse failure than it based on age alone regardless of IP clout, developer clout, market campaign and the sheer cult following of the jedi within the Star Wars universe... ffs there's even a Jedi Church nowadays).
In any event, in the context of this discussion, it's not that relevant. One of the few, clear statements that's been made about EQN is that it will be a sandbox. Now, exactly what that means is anyone's guess, but it will be a sandbox. SOE is a AAA developer and EQ is a AAA property. SOE wouldn't spend the money on Smedley's insanity if they didn't think it wouldn't return them some money. More so than any other sandbox game running, EQN will be the proof of concept for sandbox MMORPGs.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Probably? How do you know that? How do you it is not like locked room mystery that never makes a come back?
And i would say you are cherry picking your example. There are plenty of stuff not coming back (yet).
- locked room mystery
- radio drama
- text adventures
... the list goes on and on ....
There is no proof one way or another.
Some people are impossible to please. If you like I can claim to know this for a fact. But instead I'm being honest and saying it's "probably" cyclical. And I'm saying that because why wouldn't it be? There is undoubtedly (though some people here have doubted it) a resurgence in sandbox games coming down the pipe... and notice how I said a REsurgence, as in it has happened before. Sandbox games and games that are difficult and unforgiving were more popular before themepark games took over. Now themepark games are falling out of fashion and people are looking for more sandbox games.
If you want something more concrete, look at how many sandbox games have been funded by kickstarter. Probably lot more now than a few years ago.
What we need is quality games, not more of anything. We need games that are actually fun to play and tell us we don't have to pay for things but we do because we love the game so much. We need to be driven by games that make us want to play them, not through flashy effects or instant action or any of this nonsense.
The reason why some games just stick in our heads as being the best game ever or the standard you hold up all upcoming games to is mostly based on the Quantity VS. Quality discussion.
You cannot argue with the quantity of games being released now to say 10 years ago has grown exponentially. This is based on the fact that gaming is now known as a business. All you need is the right tools, development kits, money, and a good set of developers to set up an MMORPG as you want it to be. It's quite literally made it to the point where game companies probably make more money than we could ever dream of having. However, if you look at the history of games, the past has been more about making something you dream of and making money is something you achieve when you reach a certain level of success.
MMORPGs are now streamlined, optimized and perfected for profit instead of having open-minds, a solid idea and finding the right people to get the job done. Businesses like Aeria, Gameforge, Zynga, and Others have taken the model and serialized it to the point where nobody even sees the games for what they really are. MMORPGs are business propositions, success is based on how many people buy things before they leave the game meaning the exit point for users is literally calculated and anticipated, instead of being works of art, where there is a fragile balance of making the masses happy by keeping them coming back for more and attaining your goal. It used to be about innovating instead of seeing what little innovation you can get away without the buyers noticing.
PvP and PvE should be irrelevant to the success of a game. The overall game should make people want to play it and spend money of their own free will.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
Actually not even that is clear. I think what he actually said was "sandbox style" which is even more vague.
Your right though, they would not make it if they did not believe they could make profit from it.
Actually not even that is clear. I think what he actually said was "sandbox style" which is even more vague.
Your right though, they would not make it if they did not believe they could make profit from it.
SMEEEEEDLEEEEEEEEEY!
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
+thread pwned
For one, you brought up Minecraft, doesnt count. Sure it has some pretty cool multiplayer aspects, but its not really an MMO. Though from what I read its damn close when a server is set up for it.
SWG did not have open PvP. It was optional. So that one is ruled out.
UO has ONE shard out of a dozen or so that is open PvP. PvP is optional in UO. Shadowbane doesnt exist anymore....
Er, the opposite is the case.
Minecraft has PvP. Eve has PvP. SWG had PvP. AC has PvP. UO has PvP. Shadowbane had PvP. Virtually every sandbox has PvP.
For one, you brought up Minecraft, doesnt count. Sure it has some pretty cool multiplayer aspects, but its not really an MMO. Though from what I read its damn close when a server is set up for it.
SWG did not have open PvP. It was optional. So that one is ruled out.
UO has ONE shard out of a dozen or so that is open PvP. PvP is optional in UO. Shadowbane doesnt exist anymore....
Re-read what was said. The first guy said sandbox games have NO pvp. Then Davis pointed out sandbox games that do have pvp. Then you came in and said they dont have OPEN pvp. They still had pvp.Pvp is an innately sandbox feature. Open pvp even more so. Open pvp with loot even more than that.
I don't disagree themeparks are falling out of fashion. I just don't agree that people want sandbox. May be they don't even want MMO anymore.
Actually how many sandbox MMO are funded by KS? Tell me. 1, 5, 10? You know that KS funded is not the same as being produced, nor that the end product will be successful, right? There are all sort of odd ball thing being funded on KS. Don't tell me that is where the market is going in every case.
There is no consensus of what sandbox means anyway.
Smedley is just saying buzzwords to drum up interests.
I will wait and see the detailed design and implementation of EQN before i pass judgment.
you are kidding, right? name me 1 sandbox made in last 10 years that doesnt have PVP.
more than that - at least name me one which doesnt have open pvp.
i can name you the oposite:
xsyon
MO
DF
eve
age of wulin
archage (not sure if it is already out in asia or only in beta)
salem
and i proly forgot some
I predict open-world PVP in EverQuest Next:
Ryzom
A tale in the desert
The Repopulation ( PVE and PVP servers, will be released late this year or early next)
Fallen Earth (has PVP zones but those are for guild warfare stuff, you don't lose anything by not going there if you want to experience all that there is in PVE terms)
Wurm Online (PVE only servers)
Citadel of Sorcery (no mention of OW PVP by what I read)
Asheron's Call 1
Starport
Firefall
Needed only one? There are more out there than these.
It makes just about as much sense as the theme of this thread, which is none at all.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Ryzom
A tale in the desert
The Repopulation ( PVE and PVP servers, will be released late this year or early next)
Fallen Earth (has PVP zones but those are for guild warfare stuff, you don't lose anything by not going there if you want to experience all that there is in PVE terms)
Wurm Online (PVE only servers)
Citadel of Sorcery (no mention of OW PVP by what I read)
Asheron's Call 1
Starport
Firefall
Needed only one? There are more out there than these.
Are those no pvp, period, or no open world/FFA PvP? Because I'm pretty sure it's possible to at least flag yourself for PvP in Fallen Earth and the Repopulation. I just want to be sure I'm reading your post right.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
He must mean no open world pvp because I can confirm at least some of those games indeed have pvp.
seriously? do we have to go through this again? in 1 thread it was not enough?
i am not sure i would call ryzom a sandbox - you cannt affect the world at all
tale in the desert is completely special kind of game, it doesnt have not only pvp, but also not pve, no combat at all
not released yet
definitelly not a sandbox
true, but was originally released as ffa pvp game, and still development gives more features to pvp servers
not out, and i am not sure if ever will
didnt play AC1, only AC2, which isnt a sandbox, but i specifically asked for games from last 10 years, which AC1 definitelly isnt
never heard of this game, but from what i read on their homepage, it is same case as wurm - game made primarily as open pvp game
not out yet and it is fps, not an rpg, also not sure if i would call it a sandbox