Or you could read my post and learn that I also do not like this method of gear acquisition either.
Basically same thing - you kill 1 specific mob over and over or just kill random mobs over and over.
I am pretty much all the opposite - I do not understand what the "fun" is in complete randomness of item stats. It kills any economy/market since supply - demand cannot really work that way, and I see it as an utter waste of time and heap of frustration(there is no goal to achieve, all is random).
I never sat and killed 1 type of mob. I roamed and explored in certain areas that contained high level mobs that had a "perceived" chance of finding better loot. Started off with Olthoi Queens, progressed to Unbis Shadow near Forth Teth, then Banderling Maulers on Aerfalle, to Virinidi and Crystal Golems in Valley of Death in the Direlands. Sure the best course of XP was by camping certain mobs in dungeons like Tuskers, Olthoi Soldiers, and Lugians but I rarely camped mobs/grinded XP because those mobs dropped bad loot but were good for XP.
Also In close to 14 years of Asheron's Call I never saw an economy that was fluid and dynamic as in AC. Shards, sing keys, MFK's, MMD notes and high level Majors have all been part of a greater economy something a cash economy like every MMO has ever adopted has failed to live up too IMO.
The fun I find in this system is every kill is a thrill, I'll never know what I get. I do not need a group or a raid to get a "specific" item, I can do it by myself or with a group but the group isn't required. I also have the thrill of finding the perect matching pice of armor instead of knowing the best thing I can get can be acquired through a little bit of grinding. Maybe if crafting centric games had a randomness to their look with thousands of different aesthetic choices I would enjoy it more, but knowing I am going to get a +4 platemail Hauberk of Strength which looks like every other Hauberk of Strength with a little bit of grinding is missing something I enjoy about dynamic loot. Personal tastes only. As for a goal, the goal is to find the best look with the best stats and instead of "knowing" when you get it, you never know which kill will drop that next perfect piece to your suit.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Azza, I too am from AC so I will try to explain it in an AC centric way.
In AC we would hunt for hours on end, for that low quality max stats gear, that could be tinkered to max. We would also hunt hours for high quality materials that we could then tinker with. That Q10 Sunstone, or Granite bag that was saved for tink no 10 was ever so valuable. Tinkering became the gear game, finding loot was still great, but it could be trash with the failure to apply. Just imagine in a craft centric game, we gather everything, so instead of finding a max sword with max mods, we now hunt for all of our materials to make the sword as well as enhance it to its maximum possible.
Not saying EQN though will be like this, but a perfect crafting system would be AC's Tinkering system with the added property of weapon creation, it may happen someday, what if in AC you found 10 Q 10 hilts that could be combined by a max level crafter and 10 Q 10 blades that could also be combined, now find something that can remove a major sword buff and apply it in the process, etc.
You're right on the tinkering aspect and I loved that about the game as well but the real fun was still finding the perfect Amuli coat and Legs with matching trim and in my case containing Major Life, Axe, Melee Defense, and Arcane Lore.
Appreciate this post as well, it helps allays any fears I have about a crafting centric MMO.
ahh mine was the Covenant Armor, loved that look, actually built a mage build around it, I was the first Cove Mage, which was a build of specced Life, Missile( had to reach 400+ buffed missile defense to activate my armor, Creature. Was so much fun, I was a mage tank who didnt even have offensive spells (outside of life drains) All I would do was debuff the shit out of everything while holding aggro while my fellowship burned down the mobs in the Valley of Death.
God I wish someone would make an Asheron's Call with updated graphics and a better combat system. Lord knows it would do well in this day and age. Till then I am stuck waiting on EQN and hearing people discuss their love the IP and it makes me feel left out. I could write a book about my adventures in AC and hope someday someone would do that style justice so I can have the same nostalgia trip people are having with EQN.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.
My biggest reason is I fail to see the incentive to actually hunting and exploring, let alone tackling tough boss mob types. I come from an Asheron's Call MMO background where Loot played a major role in the longevity of the game and to this day I fail to see how Crafting can be as rewarding as finding that 1 in a million rare drop. Now I am not talking about doing instance raids, as I hate that style of loot acquisition but instead I prefer a more Diablo/ARPG style approach to acquiring gear, through random drops and luck of the draw.
I've never played a Crafting Centric sandbox where gear is predominantly attained via crafting but I fail to see the appeal in it, and it is a prime concern for me when discussing EQN. Why would I go out hunting, exploring and grinding mobs when I know theres little value in doing so......This is also a primary reason for me quitting games like GW2 and now Neverwinter. Both Crafting Centric and Raid/Party Specific styles of MMO are on opposite ends of the spectrum, where both styles either remove the option or require a group. If this makes any sense let me just explain it like this. We are not grouped 24/7 in an MMO in fact my time spent in a group is on the order of 5%. What this means is that 95% of my time is spent by myself solo, when this happens I want to do what I enjoy....things like explore and hunting but when I know my time is spent wasted because I will never acquire anything useful I get bored rather quick. Does this make sense? Its hard to describe but I decided to quit Neverwinter because my enjoyment has waned even though I enjoyed the combat and the Foundry but there was something missing and it took me a few days to figure it out. It all boils down to not being properly rewarded for doing what I enjoy and to me the best way to reward me is through random loot drops. It's what I enjoyed so much about Asheron's Call, it kept me playing for longer then any MMO because I never knew what I would get.
I loved the Asheron's call loot slot machine. It was especially good earlyish in the game (before they started really messing with the system -- IE back in the Dark Majesty days or earlier when they didnt have the extra points for billions of exp metered month by month and the only really good stuff dropped from chests). What was good was any monster could drop something great and even the lousy stuff could look good or be salvagable.
But lets get to the point I wanted to make:
Asheron's call tinkering was an important crafting form and you REALLY risked your stuff getting it to ten tinkers. And you needed those to have the best of the best.
If you wussed out on tinkering your double major then your AL or weapon damage would suffer. It actually made such things less unbalanced because you could 10 tinker several majors to higher al than you would dare do a double.
Originally posted by nariusseldon it all boils down to preferences.And random stats gear is highly successful in games from Diablo 1 to 3. Millions of players are engaging in what you think is "utter waste of time" for long while.What is the point? What you think is "utter waste of time" is fun entertainment for others.
When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.
My biggest reason is I fail to see the incentive to actually hunting and exploring, let alone tackling tough boss mob types. I come from an Asheron's Call MMO background where Loot played a major role in the longevity of the game and to this day I fail to see how Crafting can be as rewarding as finding that 1 in a million rare drop. Now I am not talking about doing instance raids, as I hate that style of loot acquisition but instead I prefer a more Diablo/ARPG style approach to acquiring gear, through random drops and luck of the draw.
I've never played a Crafting Centric sandbox where gear is predominantly attained via crafting but I fail to see the appeal in it, and it is a prime concern for me when discussing EQN. Why would I go out hunting, exploring and grinding mobs when I know theres little value in doing so......This is also a primary reason for me quitting games like GW2 and now Neverwinter. Both Crafting Centric and Raid/Party Specific styles of MMO are on opposite ends of the spectrum, where both styles either remove the option or require a group. If this makes any sense let me just explain it like this. We are not grouped 24/7 in an MMO in fact my time spent in a group is on the order of 5%. What this means is that 95% of my time is spent by myself solo, when this happens I want to do what I enjoy....things like explore and hunting but when I know my time is spent wasted because I will never acquire anything useful I get bored rather quick. Does this make sense? Its hard to describe but I decided to quit Neverwinter because my enjoyment has waned even though I enjoyed the combat and the Foundry but there was something missing and it took me a few days to figure it out. It all boils down to not being properly rewarded for doing what I enjoy and to me the best way to reward me is through random loot drops. It's what I enjoyed so much about Asheron's Call, it kept me playing for longer then any MMO because I never knew what I would get.
Well, your example of a crafting focussed MMO is just as one sided as a loot focussed MMO where crafting plays no (important) role at all. I never played such a crafting focussed MMO.
Even SWG wasn't only crafting focussed. It was just a possible path you could follow (both pre and post NGE). There were always incentives to explore, hunt and do combat for resources. While at the same time it also had an awesome resource gathering system for crafters. It had an awesome balance between combat focussed players and crafting focussed players. Key point here is that this MMO could cater to both and both paths were viable as your main playstyle. This is what made it a sandbox for me.
I can say this too about Vanguard and Fallen Earth, although these are mainly about nodehunting with resources, which makes it kind of different and puts the resource gathering mainly into combat hands. Although you could debate whether those games are sandboxes, both have viable crafting. And let you focus on that, instead of crafting being some side job like in most themepark MMO's.
EDIT : Forgot about EVE. EVE also has a great balance between crafting and combat.
Originally posted by azzamasinI never sat and killed 1 type of mob.
Killing "1 specific mob over and over" was refering to dungeon boss and as pointed out, it is pretty much the same as "roaming" you are doing - both are about random drop.
It is the randomness of stats that is killing the game economy and you need to get rid of it in order to make crafting meaningful and deep so that crafters can produce what people want - supply the demand.
That shifts the concept of gear being the tool instead of reward.
I think the ideal system would be, instead of those random "epic" loot drops, there should be epic crafting mats dropping from bosses, so theres still that sense of achievement to go out and hunt monsters to craft that epic sword... with tons and tons of different possible mats to collect with different stats...
There is. The legendaries in WOW are all crafted.
And in each tier, there is usually one or two crafted BIS or almost BIS items.
I think the ideal system would be, instead of those random "epic" loot drops, there should be epic crafting mats dropping from bosses, so theres still that sense of achievement to go out and hunt monsters to craft that epic sword... with tons and tons of different possible mats to collect with different stats...
There is. The legendaries in WOW are all crafted.
And in each tier, there is usually one or two crafted BIS or almost BIS items.
What narius said, but also this becomes another "unless you raid you get shit" scenario
So many mmo almost add crafting on at the end, some conversation recorded from MMO developers
Dev 1 "ooo only 3 days until alpha/beta/charlie etc oh bugger we forgot to add some crafting, quick bang something"
Dev 2 "hey how about we just update the loot tables on boss drops to include some random item then we dont ahve to worry about crafting for the masses".
And that is how crafting was made for most MMO.
Instead of,
Dev 1 "Now we starting to take shape how can we add some form crafting to the game to increase the depth and complexity".
Dev 2 "I have an idea lets make it so that people can, if they dont feel like raiding, still play our game but be dedicated crafters/builders".
Think Final fantasy, they have gone some way with the fact you can craft and not run many mission (can't say exactly how this works only played upto level 5 on CB)
or EVe where crafting/building is a completly different game alltogether that the other players require.
Crafting/building should be a symbiotic relationship between PvE / PvP and Crafting, and not something that you do when your bored / waiting to level up etc...
When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.
you cannot make an mmorpg focused on crafting that only lets you craft weapons and armors and expect it to be successful.
If its going to focus on crafting i have to be able to craft everything in the world and make a living (in game) doing business with other players. And that includes using terrain and tools to create entire buildings and hell if you are an expert crafter you can craft even whole villages with your guild mates so that you put your own npcs to sell for you the stuff you crafted. Sell houses to other players, etc. Full focus craftin is not just weapon and armor. Thats one of the smallest parts of a crafting mmo.
I never player SWG but people say it had the best crafting. I dont know. I havent seen an mmo with that level of crafting, not well done at least.
When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.
My biggest reason is I fail to see the incentive to actually hunting and exploring, let alone tackling tough boss mob types.
I see you never played SWG, just about everything was player created, yet a fully crafting focused character had no way to hunt for things like Krayt scales which were required to make top end equipment. Hence where community oriented design came into play, a combat player gathered these things and sold or traded them to a crafter, giving that combat oriented character plenty of reasons to hunt harder mobs.
On top of that exploring uncovered far more valuable resources. Which a crafter could place equipment that collected said resource.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I loved gathering the resources to craft a set of RIS armor. The challenge of getting all of the uncommon/rare materials was awesome. Plus, the quest chain to learn the schematic was even more amazing.
Woolamander Harrower Bone Fragment Giant Dune Kimogila Scale Peko Peko Albatross Feather Reclusive Gurk King Hide
If you're killing creatures which drop materials that are needed by crafters and can therefore trade those items to a crafter in exchange for good loot then it really isn't all the different from getting the loot directly from the mobs.
The problem is balance. If you have a randomized loot system like AC where the best loot comes from creatures/chests then what can you really have left for crafters to do (and in this day and age there are enough crafters out there that every game is going to have crafting)? Sure AC provided tinkering where you boost the stats of the weapons, but there is a lack of creation there which means I don't think most crafting type of players would find that interesting enough.
So I think some games go with needing the materials from creatures, so hunting is still viable. While allowing players to build the best weapons/armor so that crafters feel very useful and powerful. It allows both sides to get to do what they want while making players have needs to interact with one another. Granted an Auction House is going to put a dent in that because it will make it harder to trade materials directly to a crafter since they can go out and buy them for as cheap as possible. But on the other hand that means a player could quest for money rewards and buy top gear without having to grind mobs.
I'm torn on if randomized loot or crafting centric is better. Asheron's Call has always been my pick for best MMO and randomized loot played a big roll in the game. However, I can see some serious limits with that type of system in today's gaming. As it is they currently struggle with quest rewards because they don't want to eclipse loot, but then what makes the quest rewards worth getting?
In either case, the one type of system that should NEVER be used is a roll of the dice on finishing a quest to see if you get the reward you need so that you have to run that quest a dozen times just to roll against another player for the 1 stupid piece you need. That style of rewards is atrocious and simply should not exist in MMOs. If quest rewards are meant to be appealing, then make them guaranteed. I shouldn't have to repeat your limited content over and over simply because you haven't made enough content to keep me busy.
When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.
you cannot make an mmorpg focused on crafting that only lets you craft weapons and armors and expect it to be successful.
If its going to focus on crafting i have to be able to craft everything in the world and make a living (in game) doing business with other players. And that includes using terrain and tools to create entire buildings and hell if you are an expert crafter you can craft even whole villages with your guild mates so that you put your own npcs to sell for you the stuff you crafted. Sell houses to other players, etc. Full focus craftin is not just weapon and armor. Thats one of the smallest parts of a crafting mmo.
Is what you described not EvE
you can live full time in eve without having ever killed a rat/mob heck, without ever undocking
and whilst no villages exist you can build stations (biggest solid objects in game baring orbital bodies) so from smallest (1x Antimatter Charge S) upto biggest (Caldari*insert race here* Station) everything can and IS built,
Like you never played SWG so cannot comment but EvE fulfills everything you say and yes i agree you can't just build sword/armor and expect the manufacturing side to be a big part of game, it needs 'more'
When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.
you cannot make an mmorpg focused on crafting that only lets you craft weapons and armors and expect it to be successful.
If its going to focus on crafting i have to be able to craft everything in the world and make a living (in game) doing business with other players. And that includes using terrain and tools to create entire buildings and hell if you are an expert crafter you can craft even whole villages with your guild mates so that you put your own npcs to sell for you the stuff you crafted. Sell houses to other players, etc. Full focus craftin is not just weapon and armor. Thats one of the smallest parts of a crafting mmo.
I never player SWG but people say it had the best crafting. I dont know. I havent seen an mmo with that level of crafting, not well done at least.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by rojo6934Originally posted by azzamasin When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.
you cannot make an mmorpg focused on crafting that only lets you craft weapons and armors and expect it to be successful.If its going to focus on crafting i have to be able to craft everything in the world and make a living (in game) doing business with other players. And that includes using terrain and tools to create entire buildings and hell if you are an expert crafter you can craft even whole villages with your guild mates so that you put your own npcs to sell for you the stuff you crafted. Sell houses to other players, etc. Full focus craftin is not just weapon and armor. Thats one of the smallest parts of a crafting mmo.I never player SWG but people say it had the best crafting. I dont know. I havent seen an mmo with that level of crafting, not well done at least.tales of the desert a tale in the desert crafting is nothing like swg crafting
Killing "1 specific mob over and over" was refering to dungeon boss and as pointed out, it is pretty much the same as "roaming" you are doing - both are about random drop.
It is the randomness of stats that is killing the game economy and you need to get rid of it in order to make crafting meaningful and deep so that crafters can produce what people want - supply the demand.
That shifts the concept of gear being the tool instead of reward.
Granted I hadn't played many MMO's from 1999 to 2008 (AC, DAoC, CoH and WoW) but AC had the best economy in any game I played at that time or since so yes you can build an economy, and a strong one based on the gear being a reward. The randomness of stats and more importantly looks was what kept me playing. Every game since has used the "you know what you get before you get it" loot philosophy and all of them sucked compared to AC. Like Diablo (I'd wager) loot was one of the driving factors in the game (for me it was the only factor). Take for example, GW2, Rift, TSW, and now Neverwinter. I've reached the zenith of my loot acquisition in each and in each I quit shortly thereafter. For me Loot is an important factor in longevity of a game and because I have only played 3 MMO's longer then a year (AC, DAoC and WoW) I have came to the realization that once I gather the best loot then there's no real incentive "for me" to log in any more and I quickly get bored. WoW did it through constant raids, AC did it with unlimited choices and well I played DAoC for the PvP so that's a different story.
This is why I am worried about a crafting centric game like people claim will be in EQN because it's going to be a sandbox. Hopefully there it takes a long long time to get BiS.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
If you're killing creatures which drop materials that are needed by crafters and can therefore trade those items to a crafter in exchange for good loot then it really isn't all the different from getting the loot directly from the mobs.
The problem is balance. If you have a randomized loot system like AC where the best loot comes from creatures/chests then what can you really have left for crafters to do (and in this day and age there are enough crafters out there that every game is going to have crafting)? Sure AC provided tinkering where you boost the stats of the weapons, but there is a lack of creation there which means I don't think most crafting type of players would find that interesting enough.
So I think some games go with needing the materials from creatures, so hunting is still viable. While allowing players to build the best weapons/armor so that crafters feel very useful and powerful. It allows both sides to get to do what they want while making players have needs to interact with one another. Granted an Auction House is going to put a dent in that because it will make it harder to trade materials directly to a crafter since they can go out and buy them for as cheap as possible. But on the other hand that means a player could quest for money rewards and buy top gear without having to grind mobs.
I'm torn on if randomized loot or crafting centric is better. Asheron's Call has always been my pick for best MMO and randomized loot played a big roll in the game. However, I can see some serious limits with that type of system in today's gaming. As it is they currently struggle with quest rewards because they don't want to eclipse loot, but then what makes the quest rewards worth getting?
In either case, the one type of system that should NEVER be used is a roll of the dice on finishing a quest to see if you get the reward you need so that you have to run that quest a dozen times just to roll against another player for the 1 stupid piece you need. That style of rewards is atrocious and simply should not exist in MMOs. If quest rewards are meant to be appealing, then make them guaranteed. I shouldn't have to repeat your limited content over and over simply because you haven't made enough content to keep me busy.
Early on in AC quest rewards sucked but now in the last 4 or 5 years they have not only made quests more indepth and more fun they also added several different types of reward that make it worth doing.
MFK keys - which prior to Legendary chests a few months back when they added in a new loot profile, contained the best gear randomly
Experience - The best XP comes from doing quests, at level 200+ it isn't uncommon to get a ¼ or more bar of XP
Alternate Advancement XP - Its the best way to acquire Luminance (the endgame AA system)
Titles - Are always fun to get
Elemental and Mob Specific Slayer Rends - Enchantments used on weapons to make you hit harder versus specific types of mobs
Anyway I always considered AC the best crafting game because even though you never make a Breatplate or a Sword, you do enhance those loot drops and a good crafter is in very high demand.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
appeal of crafting is that you created it, and if people knows you, you become the legendary weapon crafter and people will look for you. Therefore you becoming like a Crafting star in the game.
Those that provides you with the materials, become your go to guy for materials.
Thats is the appeal, if you don't craft or only craft sometimes then its not your cup of tea.
Crafting focused is just like builder focused Minecraft games, its for those that has the time and patience to do it.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Crafting in FFXI gave me a prominence in the community. Anyone can whack a mole over the head but few people can make that one in a million piece of jewelry or high potion. Still I would like to see crafting improved by less boring repetition and more attention to role playing details. I like how Mabinogi did crafting where you learn a mini game that supports an actual imitation of the real life act of sewing needle work or hammering out the weak spots in hot metal. But I would like to see a complete replication of the act of metalworking so much so it could be used as a carbon copy in real life. You would really learn something about the craft not just pretend you were making shiz. Educational even.
You brought up EQNext I would note here that I did NOT like Everquest's crafting system at all! It was overly complex and still there was the repetition. I would rather learn to create something in real life when a game makes creation even more tedious.
Comments
I never sat and killed 1 type of mob. I roamed and explored in certain areas that contained high level mobs that had a "perceived" chance of finding better loot. Started off with Olthoi Queens, progressed to Unbis Shadow near Forth Teth, then Banderling Maulers on Aerfalle, to Virinidi and Crystal Golems in Valley of Death in the Direlands. Sure the best course of XP was by camping certain mobs in dungeons like Tuskers, Olthoi Soldiers, and Lugians but I rarely camped mobs/grinded XP because those mobs dropped bad loot but were good for XP.
Also In close to 14 years of Asheron's Call I never saw an economy that was fluid and dynamic as in AC. Shards, sing keys, MFK's, MMD notes and high level Majors have all been part of a greater economy something a cash economy like every MMO has ever adopted has failed to live up too IMO.
The fun I find in this system is every kill is a thrill, I'll never know what I get. I do not need a group or a raid to get a "specific" item, I can do it by myself or with a group but the group isn't required. I also have the thrill of finding the perect matching pice of armor instead of knowing the best thing I can get can be acquired through a little bit of grinding. Maybe if crafting centric games had a randomness to their look with thousands of different aesthetic choices I would enjoy it more, but knowing I am going to get a +4 platemail Hauberk of Strength which looks like every other Hauberk of Strength with a little bit of grinding is missing something I enjoy about dynamic loot. Personal tastes only. As for a goal, the goal is to find the best look with the best stats and instead of "knowing" when you get it, you never know which kill will drop that next perfect piece to your suit.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
God I wish someone would make an Asheron's Call with updated graphics and a better combat system. Lord knows it would do well in this day and age. Till then I am stuck waiting on EQN and hearing people discuss their love the IP and it makes me feel left out. I could write a book about my adventures in AC and hope someday someone would do that style justice so I can have the same nostalgia trip people are having with EQN.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I loved the Asheron's call loot slot machine. It was especially good earlyish in the game (before they started really messing with the system -- IE back in the Dark Majesty days or earlier when they didnt have the extra points for billions of exp metered month by month and the only really good stuff dropped from chests). What was good was any monster could drop something great and even the lousy stuff could look good or be salvagable.
But lets get to the point I wanted to make:
Asheron's call tinkering was an important crafting form and you REALLY risked your stuff getting it to ten tinkers. And you needed those to have the best of the best.
If you wussed out on tinkering your double major then your AL or weapon damage would suffer. It actually made such things less unbalanced because you could 10 tinker several majors to higher al than you would dare do a double.
That was my whole point.
Well, your example of a crafting focussed MMO is just as one sided as a loot focussed MMO where crafting plays no (important) role at all. I never played such a crafting focussed MMO.
Even SWG wasn't only crafting focussed. It was just a possible path you could follow (both pre and post NGE). There were always incentives to explore, hunt and do combat for resources. While at the same time it also had an awesome resource gathering system for crafters. It had an awesome balance between combat focussed players and crafting focussed players. Key point here is that this MMO could cater to both and both paths were viable as your main playstyle. This is what made it a sandbox for me.
I can say this too about Vanguard and Fallen Earth, although these are mainly about nodehunting with resources, which makes it kind of different and puts the resource gathering mainly into combat hands. Although you could debate whether those games are sandboxes, both have viable crafting. And let you focus on that, instead of crafting being some side job like in most themepark MMO's.
EDIT : Forgot about EVE. EVE also has a great balance between crafting and combat.
Killing "1 specific mob over and over" was refering to dungeon boss and as pointed out, it is pretty much the same as "roaming" you are doing - both are about random drop.
It is the randomness of stats that is killing the game economy and you need to get rid of it in order to make crafting meaningful and deep so that crafters can produce what people want - supply the demand.
That shifts the concept of gear being the tool instead of reward.
There is. The legendaries in WOW are all crafted.
And in each tier, there is usually one or two crafted BIS or almost BIS items.
What narius said, but also this becomes another "unless you raid you get shit" scenario
So many mmo almost add crafting on at the end, some conversation recorded from MMO developers
Dev 1 "ooo only 3 days until alpha/beta/charlie etc oh bugger we forgot to add some crafting, quick bang something"
Dev 2 "hey how about we just update the loot tables on boss drops to include some random item then we dont ahve to worry about crafting for the masses".
And that is how crafting was made for most MMO.
Instead of,
Dev 1 "Now we starting to take shape how can we add some form crafting to the game to increase the depth and complexity".
Dev 2 "I have an idea lets make it so that people can, if they dont feel like raiding, still play our game but be dedicated crafters/builders".
Think Final fantasy, they have gone some way with the fact you can craft and not run many mission (can't say exactly how this works only played upto level 5 on CB)
or EVe where crafting/building is a completly different game alltogether that the other players require.
Crafting/building should be a symbiotic relationship between PvE / PvP and Crafting, and not something that you do when your bored / waiting to level up etc...
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
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you cannot make an mmorpg focused on crafting that only lets you craft weapons and armors and expect it to be successful.
If its going to focus on crafting i have to be able to craft everything in the world and make a living (in game) doing business with other players. And that includes using terrain and tools to create entire buildings and hell if you are an expert crafter you can craft even whole villages with your guild mates so that you put your own npcs to sell for you the stuff you crafted. Sell houses to other players, etc. Full focus craftin is not just weapon and armor. Thats one of the smallest parts of a crafting mmo.
I never player SWG but people say it had the best crafting. I dont know. I havent seen an mmo with that level of crafting, not well done at least.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I loved gathering the resources to craft a set of RIS armor. The challenge of getting all of the uncommon/rare materials was awesome. Plus, the quest chain to learn the schematic was even more amazing.
Woolamander Harrower Bone Fragment
Giant Dune Kimogila Scale
Peko Peko Albatross Feather
Reclusive Gurk King Hide
If you're killing creatures which drop materials that are needed by crafters and can therefore trade those items to a crafter in exchange for good loot then it really isn't all the different from getting the loot directly from the mobs.
The problem is balance. If you have a randomized loot system like AC where the best loot comes from creatures/chests then what can you really have left for crafters to do (and in this day and age there are enough crafters out there that every game is going to have crafting)? Sure AC provided tinkering where you boost the stats of the weapons, but there is a lack of creation there which means I don't think most crafting type of players would find that interesting enough.
So I think some games go with needing the materials from creatures, so hunting is still viable. While allowing players to build the best weapons/armor so that crafters feel very useful and powerful. It allows both sides to get to do what they want while making players have needs to interact with one another. Granted an Auction House is going to put a dent in that because it will make it harder to trade materials directly to a crafter since they can go out and buy them for as cheap as possible. But on the other hand that means a player could quest for money rewards and buy top gear without having to grind mobs.
I'm torn on if randomized loot or crafting centric is better. Asheron's Call has always been my pick for best MMO and randomized loot played a big roll in the game. However, I can see some serious limits with that type of system in today's gaming. As it is they currently struggle with quest rewards because they don't want to eclipse loot, but then what makes the quest rewards worth getting?
In either case, the one type of system that should NEVER be used is a roll of the dice on finishing a quest to see if you get the reward you need so that you have to run that quest a dozen times just to roll against another player for the 1 stupid piece you need. That style of rewards is atrocious and simply should not exist in MMOs. If quest rewards are meant to be appealing, then make them guaranteed. I shouldn't have to repeat your limited content over and over simply because you haven't made enough content to keep me busy.
Is what you described not EvE
you can live full time in eve without having ever killed a rat/mob heck, without ever undocking
and whilst no villages exist you can build stations (biggest solid objects in game baring orbital bodies) so from smallest (1x Antimatter Charge S) upto biggest (Caldari*insert race here* Station) everything can and IS built,
Like you never played SWG so cannot comment but EvE fulfills everything you say and yes i agree you can't just build sword/armor and expect the manufacturing side to be a big part of game, it needs 'more'
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
tales of the desert
tales of the desert
a tale in the desert crafting is nothing like swg crafting
Granted I hadn't played many MMO's from 1999 to 2008 (AC, DAoC, CoH and WoW) but AC had the best economy in any game I played at that time or since so yes you can build an economy, and a strong one based on the gear being a reward. The randomness of stats and more importantly looks was what kept me playing. Every game since has used the "you know what you get before you get it" loot philosophy and all of them sucked compared to AC. Like Diablo (I'd wager) loot was one of the driving factors in the game (for me it was the only factor). Take for example, GW2, Rift, TSW, and now Neverwinter. I've reached the zenith of my loot acquisition in each and in each I quit shortly thereafter. For me Loot is an important factor in longevity of a game and because I have only played 3 MMO's longer then a year (AC, DAoC and WoW) I have came to the realization that once I gather the best loot then there's no real incentive "for me" to log in any more and I quickly get bored. WoW did it through constant raids, AC did it with unlimited choices and well I played DAoC for the PvP so that's a different story.
This is why I am worried about a crafting centric game like people claim will be in EQN because it's going to be a sandbox. Hopefully there it takes a long long time to get BiS.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Early on in AC quest rewards sucked but now in the last 4 or 5 years they have not only made quests more indepth and more fun they also added several different types of reward that make it worth doing.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
appeal of crafting is that you created it, and if people knows you, you become the legendary weapon crafter and people will look for you. Therefore you becoming like a Crafting star in the game.
Those that provides you with the materials, become your go to guy for materials.
Thats is the appeal, if you don't craft or only craft sometimes then its not your cup of tea.
Crafting focused is just like builder focused Minecraft games, its for those that has the time and patience to do it.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Crafting in FFXI gave me a prominence in the community. Anyone can whack a mole over the head but few people can make that one in a million piece of jewelry or high potion. Still I would like to see crafting improved by less boring repetition and more attention to role playing details. I like how Mabinogi did crafting where you learn a mini game that supports an actual imitation of the real life act of sewing needle work or hammering out the weak spots in hot metal. But I would like to see a complete replication of the act of metalworking so much so it could be used as a carbon copy in real life. You would really learn something about the craft not just pretend you were making shiz. Educational even.
You brought up EQNext I would note here that I did NOT like Everquest's crafting system at all! It was overly complex and still there was the repetition. I would rather learn to create something in real life when a game makes creation even more tedious.