Am I the only person that thinks you loose all credibility to say anything like that when you SELL a product that you acknowledge is in an unfinished state? Perhaps people would be more inclined to treat it as a BETA if they weren't selling it like a finished product. They use the term BETA to their own ends whenever convenient for them. And it is VERY different than kickstarter so just stop it.
Final Fantasy XIV had a three year beta 2010.5-2013.
If other developers agree with this Mark fellow. Then they need to start quality testing immediately. Have about a bunch people apply to be testers and fill in their resume, with a list of ideas or wants in the mmo space.
Pay them by promising them free lifetime access to the mmo after release, require a standard hours logged in and a way to track it. Use skype or some other service for constant communication between testers and devs.
I don't think the article should have been calling out players at all. It is the industry itself that redefined beta and what to expect in terms of quality and content. After all, its not like players have control of when a new game is released or what stage it is in when it is. But after doing things a certain way after so many years now, its no wonder players expect things to be a certain way. And just because a dev is behind the curve development wise, you can't expect most players to change their thinking so as to excuse slow paced progress as they hide behind the tag of "being innovative". That's like announcing to the world that you are reinventing the television and giving out TVs to try them, but not expect the same people to complain when all they are given are half working TVs with rabbit ear antennas as you take your time making it "cable ready".
As others mentioned, I too can't fully agree with this article after what Firefall has done. Don't get me wrong, I like the game a lot, and do see somewhat how the open cash shop could be justified as a tool to help with funding similar to a kickstarter...if it was left at that. But how can people keep hiding behind the "its only beta, not this soft launch crap post-WoW players got used to" when I saw as many ads and hype centered around the game as Rift and Aion did when announcing free to play and expect players to think differently? Especially here on mmorpg.com, Firefall banners are everywhere. And yet the game barely has even half the content those other games have in just one expansion. If you want players to stop acting like its a soft launch and not the early beta that it is, then please stop advertising it as such.
You are the exact user he is calling out in the article. Beta means beta. Unfinished. It is in development and has reached beta stage. Also, this beta has been ongoing for two years.
This is no different than some kickstarter asking for money -- they just do it through their starter packs. Basically asking you to have faith in them giving you a quality product after beta.
im sorry but if your going to charge for entry you cant rightly use the excuse its in beta, if he truly felt this way he wouldn't have charged for entry.
im sorry I don't care what anyone says if you are confident enough in your game to charge for it then it cant be considered beta anymore, if you truly think its beta, then don't be charging people for stuff in it, or entry into beta.
cause people who bought those founders packs where not expecting to buy into a beta that would last so many years in beta still, they where expecting a almost finished product.
you want to use the its still beta excuse then make sure its closed, and no one in beta had to pay to get in it.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
I do NOT want gamers to have a voice in game development, educated, trained, experienced, intelligent professionals Only
Its true that most suggestions are bad on forums and many suggestions are completly oblivious for the cost they would carry but you can still use the average player to tell you if the game works or crashes.
Originally posted by evolpc Biggest load of crap ever coming from a guy that just crapped out a half cooked beta to try to grab cash for his sinking ship and prior to that promoted paid beta. So hypocritical it's not even funny. Bu hey, he got me for like $100 for a game that barely functions. Just can't stand to see him here writing these articles like he is some sort of authority on development reform.
Originally posted by evolpc Am I the only person that thinks you loose all credibility to say anything like that when you SELL a product that you acknowledge is in an unfinished state? nope Perhaps people would be more inclined to treat it as a BETA if they weren't selling it like a finished product. They use the term BETA to their own ends whenever convenient for them. And it is VERY different than kickstarter so just stop it.
tbh this seems like another firefall excuse article to me.
I finally agree on a couple things he mentions.Yes the cost is enormous and yes it is a struggle to catch up in features compared to older games.
However how many games actually have features outside of following linear quests around then end game raiding?Then of course crafting,bu that has been a feature from day 1,so no catching up there either.
All these older games did was give us the basic platform to allow them to further tweak and be creative.However what i have seen is these older games put MORE effort in to the systems,than newer game.Everything i see in newer games always shouts out "done to speed up production".
I strongly disagree with the week to create a creature.What Wow displayed should have been 2-3 days maximum.I have seen guys post videos of them opening up a program and creating a animated creature from scratch in a matter of a couple hours.No they did not have a ton of vertices or anything fancy,but when i look at most creatures in games,it was identical.Moving elbow or shoulder joints,moving knee/hip joints and that is about it.Some of these designers just slap a lazy texture over the whole thing and cal lit a ROCK creature.
Yes i could see it taking time if they actually put all the work into the models and then shader's and tons of animated sequences,however many games look to be doing very little with their efforts.Then how about the scripted AI,i see again a lot of lazy efffort.Most if not all of these games have scripts that allow them to simply check off properties for every creature,they don't have to go in and individually script each one.This again takes effort to make sure there are lots of choices beyond the simple aggressive or not script.
There is ONLY one area i feel games need to improve and yes it might take added work but it is the most important.Quit with gimmicks and salesmen pitch about "we have the best raiding game bs",give me IN DEPTH systems.Take that simple sword swing and turn it into MANY different options.Take that simple crafting box with insert item here and press button and give us some depth and creativity.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by evolpc Biggest load of crap ever coming from a guy that just crapped out a half cooked beta to try to grab cash for his sinking ship and prior to that promoted paid beta. So hypocritical it's not even funny. Bu hey, he got me for like $100 for a game that barely functions. Just can't stand to see him here writing these articles like he is some sort of authority on development reform.
You are the exact user he is calling out in the article. Beta means beta. Unfinished. It is in development and has reached beta stage. Also, this beta has been ongoing for two years.
This is no different than some kickstarter asking for money -- they just do it through their starter packs. Basically asking you to have faith in them giving you a quality product after beta.
That's why there is absolutely no excuse for the state that this game is in right now. Two years of beta and they released it in this state? There is no way you can defend this game. I have seen it being mismanaged from the get-go with there need to spend huge amounts of money on things that weren't necessary. One example that jumps to mind right now is there huge ass MGU gaming bus. And for some reason they also needed to spend money on hiring comic book writers and artists to make a comic book for their game instead of focusing all that money into the game. Oh, and they also hiredLee Reherman (a former American football player) to cosplay for their game.
I just saw a huge amount of waste going on with this game when it came to how money was managed (or mismanaged in this case) and it makes me sad because indie developers wouldkill to have that kind of money to make their game the best that it could possibly be.
It does this very thing with indie games and puts players directly involved with the development process.
I completely agree with your article. Also you noticed me ranting about lowering costs on your last post. I am glad you answered my question.
Fact still remains that 8 weeks for a single monster creation is slightly ridiculous.
I am not a developer so I can't say much but if that really is the excuse then alot of developers should be ashamed of themselves as far as the over all looks of things. Very few MMO's actually look like they took 8 weeks to create anything almost. Only game that I have seen that looks this polished as of late is ARR. No offense even Firefall looks....meh.
I hope an MMO developer reads this and does what you suggested though. Think it would be very interesting.
Originally posted by danwest58 No we need fewer MMOs we do not need more. That is why the market has gone down hill is because instead of creating a cheaper single/mutliplayer game every publisher thinks they will become the next Blizzard. They are dead wrong Blizzard was something that happens once in a while with a good product its not the standard nor will it ever be. The weak publishers need to stop making MMOs and the few strong Publishers need to continue to change their product without having to worry to get non MMO players into MMOs because thats the only way they will make a profit cause the market is saturated with MMOs or WANNBE MMOs.
Agreed. I'm tired of gamers making excuses for the genre and blaming the current slump on EQ / WoW copycatting. Too many game makers either suck or are clueless and are making crappy games period. I highly doubt it would make a difference if these same companies with their current lackluster games would be any better if they tried something completely new.
The business of making MMOs needs to be streamlined and frankly, there are too many developers being paid too high of a salary for the quality of their work. They're incredibly top heavy with far too many administrators who offer very little productivity for the cost. Something else must be going on here, because increases in technology and general MMO knowledge should be reducing costs, not adding to them. Technologically speaking, EQ was ahead of its time and much more complex than many of today's MMOs in regards to quality and quantity of systems, yet they managed to make the game relatively cost effective for that era.
"These days, with millions of polygons and multiple materials and shaders, a single monster can easily take 4-6 weeks to complete and sometimes 8 weeks or more for a boss creature."
Only Blizzard takes that long to make content. I just dont buy the excuse anymore. After having played Rift since release, watching them release entire raid zones, many with completely new models, etc and so forth, in as much time as Mark is saying Blizzard takes to create 1 boss mob. Yeah, i call BS.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
"These days, with millions of polygons and multiple materials and shaders, a single monster can easily take 4-6 weeks to complete and sometimes 8 weeks or more for a boss creature."
Only Blizzard takes that long to make content. I just dont buy the excuse anymore. After having played Rift since release, watching them release entire raid zones, many with completely new models, etc and so forth, in as much time as Mark is saying Blizzard takes to create 1 boss mob. Yeah, i call BS.
Too early to call this. In case you hadn't been aware this idea of co-development has been around for a while now. Kick-Sstarter anyone? After a couple of these titles are released we'll be in a much better position to judge the effectiveness of the methodology.
I personally feel that player involvement in development cycles can be very detrimental. The community is divided and by and large, if the players were creative geniuses they'd be developing games too, not playing them.
Too early to call this. In case you hadn't been aware this idea of co-development has been around for a while now. Kick-Sstarter anyone? After a couple of these titles are released we'll be in a much better position to judge the effectiveness of the methodology.
I personally feel that player involvement in development cycles can be very detrimental. The community is divided and by and large, if the players were creative geniuses they'd be developing games too, not playing them.
Picasso could create art; his fans could not.
It still took people to come and see the art to realize it was a masterpiece. That should be saved and cherished and put in museums for generations to see.
Otherwise its just a beautiful painting no one will get to see.
Also comparing the two mediums doesn't work. Picasso didn't care if he made a dime off his paintings. He did it cause he wanted.
Developers want OUR money. So shouldnt I have a say about how you take MY money?
If not....I have some swamp land I want to sell you. You can't see it though and I have no photographs or deed or any actual proof I own it. Give me all your $$$$ pls?
in fact the real problem is the player it self always want pay to win instead start in dark and learning the game just like U.O
in Ultima online at is first time player have to discover every thing on the whit no clue for how this world work
but now before the go out every 1 already know every thing about game
THIS IS BORING ---- I WANT REAL ADVENTURE --- i am the first generation of gamer and i play all mmo since late 80's
but now i just have to play a month to get at the final big boss whitout make any effort and after reading the story same thing nothing to do and wait for the next story
well i guess until our civilisation grow up in wisdom nothing really interesting will come out
so far Minecraft beat every other mmo for 1 thing ( we have to create our story by ourself
but minecraft still limited so far PS: stop making game for money but for player have A REAL challenge to survive
"As developers, we need to share our work early and often, before we are so far along that we can’t make changes and adapt to players."
You may have a NEED to share your work early and often but, from my perspective, were I to develop a game, I would develop what I was going to develop and share nothing with anyone outside the company about anything until it was time for open beta. My take is that developers don't put enough effect into closed beta to make the game viable for open beta, so they get the crap kicked out of them during open beta.
My philosophy is two-fold... single-player game design companies don't have a closed or open beta, they make their games and release them, which leads me to the second fold of my philosophy... if you build it, they will come.
I understand MMOs are a whole lot bigger than single-player games, which is why there's a need for beta, at all, but you have to do absolutely everything you can during closed beta, not just pawn it off to three or four months of closed beta, and then 18 months of open. Of all the beta's I've participated in, I've actually found little wrong with any of them, except for some of the more extensive mechanics, and that's as it should be.
No, players need to stay out of having any information for the game whatsoever until it's time for open beta.
Originally posted by Craio Isn't there a market voor an 'mmo-engine' so far it seems as each mmo developer makes their own...
One would think so, however using a "3rd party" engine creates unique problems all it's own. The engine creator can only guess at all the possible features a dev house may want. This often results in even MORE time & $ devoted to tearing down the toolset/engine and re-engineering it to fit one's game IE SWTOR.
Conversely it can be so modularized towards plug and play toolsets that one environment/feature feels like a mirror/copy of everything else IE Cryptics various attempts at this.
To date several companies have tried marketing toolsets/engines to sell/license to mmo makers, but so far none have really worked out all that greatly. Part of the problem in this regard is only a moron is going to drop a dime for an "unproven" engine(case in point again SWTOR) while the only way to "prove" an engine is by actually making an mmo with it. Great however, the companies building mmo's just to market an engine are generally focused on that and not many of the other hurdles involed with mmo design(the crack Crptic kept falling into). And once you have a "proven" engine it's now 2-5 yrs old after your own development, then by the time your toolset/engine buyer gets it, tweaks it, then builds an mmo around it you start getting close to the decade old engine mark.
how about you stop reinventing new graphic engines/class system/UI for every new game, but rather consolidate and expand than keep re-inventing the wheel for every car u want to sell?
I agree with the article. So many mistakes could be avoided if players could give feedback earlier on in the process. Whether it's weekends, monthly or even quarterly, these benchmarks would allow the devs to shape the game based on feedback of fans, while minimizing the risk of burn out.
I think a full week of public testing every quarter, with smaller focus tests as needed in between, would probably be a model worth considering.
You can't innovate without taking a risk. That's the whole point of innovation, high risk high reward. There is such a thing as calculated risks but it's still risk.
IMHO the MMO game industry is saturated with companies trying to come up with gimmicks disguised as an innovation when it's just a contrived attempt at not being a clone of another game. If it ain't broke don't try to fix it.
TERA was action combat. Guild Wars 2 was dynamic events, The Secret World was the 500 Skill Wheel.
I honestly wish a company would just use a tried and tested engine, and take all the strong features from all the above and more and make a complete game play experience. Once that is done, wrap it in an engaging narrative that people care about. Then you can add your custom garnish to functionality.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
IMO, I don't think a games success is relied upon it's beta testings.. The only thing I can see positive coming out of early beta is "do we spend more money on this terrible game, or start over".. I have never heard of a game start over after 3 years, and turn around and be successful..
What has swayed me into supporting a game or not is based on the games core.. All the expensive bells and whistles mean little to me, and I don't beta would help in that regard.. Take a look at SWTOR, they could of done early beta and it wouldn't have helped, IMO.. MMO development does need to change, but there are far more important changes that need to happen first before what type of beta testing do we want..
Closed beta of 6 months and then a few months down time to make required changes and then release thats my opinion
and about the development time.... MONSTERS AND HOSTILE CREATURES DO NOT NEED EYE LASHES just get rid of all the useless details that the player cant see or doesnt have time to see while they are in combat. if they have time to admire some ridicilous details on monsters while they are fighting there is something wrong with the whole combat system
and those creatures that can be admired they would have some details to show off its all about shifting the focus to things that are actually important
how many of you are admiring the details on monsters while playing god of war? i know im not they are just goon number 1 and goon number 2 to me i dont care about their names or eye lashes
I do NOT want gamers to have a voice in game development, educated, trained, experienced, intelligent professionals Only
Why not?
I, and a huge group of people are intelligent, successful professionals who game, and have for over 25 years. Does that make me experienced?
I think so.
I can only speak for myself, but I truly believe what has really happened is that devs have forgotten that a beta is for those that want to improve games, and treat it like a job. With rewards, not a mass influx of people who don't care, with devs that don't implement changes based on feedback.
I've beta tested 12 games over the years, starting with UO. I was in crowd when Rains assassinated Lord British. and from what I've seen, the dedication of the beta testers, and the devs willing to listen to them has taken a huge hit over the years.
I am lucky to be able to say I was part of prettymuch every successful mmorpg's beta test to date, and the difference between the betas that were successful to those that weren't was the devs and testers taking that phase of development seriously, and using that feedback, to refine their game .
And Omg wall of text, sorry, mobile site hates paragraph breaks it seems
I don't agree with the author's "solution". I agree that things need to change, but getting the players involved earlier in the process won't reduce production costs. And how many of those players will spend a year or more beta testing and then play the game for a long time? They may already be bored of it by the time it goes live.
What game companies need to do is go modular. Don't try to reinvent the entire wheel. Pick one aspect of an MMO and create it in a way that sets it apart from the competition. Want dungeon crawling? Make a game that is just a big dungeon. Give the players cool abilities and give the dungeon intelligent mobs. Mob AI is so much less than it could be. Create 1 big dungeon with mobs that are both proactive and reactive. Mobs that react in intelligent ways based on the group and what the group does. Dynamic fights instead of scripted fights.
Want PvP? Then create a PvP system (arena, battleground, open world, whatever) that focuses just on that and make it as good as it can possibly be. Forget PvE. Forget quests.
By going modular, companies will be able to bring a game live much quicker and at much less cost. The players who enjoy that particular aspect of MMOs will get a game that is more innovative and focused on what they want. That will result in a more stable player base and a more profitable bottom line. The companies can then add other aspects to the game in a similar fashion, or remain within their niche and keep adding to that core module.
The author is correct that there's just too much expected in an MMO today. Game companies try to cater to every type of player and the result is a bland experience that ultimately satisfies no one. Do one thing and do it really well. Get it live and get the money coming in, then work on adding other MMO elements to the game.
Another idea would be to come up with a really good character system. Make it a game unto itself with housing and stuff. Then create a bunch of smaller, modular type games for those characters. So players would be able to create a character and then play as that character in multiple games. Characters could have lives and possessions that exist outside of the games in which they play. Abandoning a game would no longer mean abandoning the character that the player invested so much time into.
MMO companies need to start thinking on a smaller scale. Only then will innovation increase and cost decrease.
Comments
Final Fantasy XIV had a three year beta 2010.5-2013.
If other developers agree with this Mark fellow. Then they need to start quality testing immediately. Have about a bunch people apply to be testers and fill in their resume, with a list of ideas or wants in the mmo space.
Pay them by promising them free lifetime access to the mmo after release, require a standard hours logged in and a way to track it. Use skype or some other service for constant communication between testers and devs.
I don't think the article should have been calling out players at all. It is the industry itself that redefined beta and what to expect in terms of quality and content. After all, its not like players have control of when a new game is released or what stage it is in when it is. But after doing things a certain way after so many years now, its no wonder players expect things to be a certain way. And just because a dev is behind the curve development wise, you can't expect most players to change their thinking so as to excuse slow paced progress as they hide behind the tag of "being innovative". That's like announcing to the world that you are reinventing the television and giving out TVs to try them, but not expect the same people to complain when all they are given are half working TVs with rabbit ear antennas as you take your time making it "cable ready".
As others mentioned, I too can't fully agree with this article after what Firefall has done. Don't get me wrong, I like the game a lot, and do see somewhat how the open cash shop could be justified as a tool to help with funding similar to a kickstarter...if it was left at that. But how can people keep hiding behind the "its only beta, not this soft launch crap post-WoW players got used to" when I saw as many ads and hype centered around the game as Rift and Aion did when announcing free to play and expect players to think differently? Especially here on mmorpg.com, Firefall banners are everywhere. And yet the game barely has even half the content those other games have in just one expansion. If you want players to stop acting like its a soft launch and not the early beta that it is, then please stop advertising it as such.
im sorry but if your going to charge for entry you cant rightly use the excuse its in beta, if he truly felt this way he wouldn't have charged for entry.
im sorry I don't care what anyone says if you are confident enough in your game to charge for it then it cant be considered beta anymore, if you truly think its beta, then don't be charging people for stuff in it, or entry into beta.
cause people who bought those founders packs where not expecting to buy into a beta that would last so many years in beta still, they where expecting a almost finished product.
you want to use the its still beta excuse then make sure its closed, and no one in beta had to pay to get in it.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Its true that most suggestions are bad on forums and many suggestions are completly oblivious for the cost they would carry but you can still use the average player to tell you if the game works or crashes.Pi*1337/100 = 42
tbh this seems like another firefall excuse article to me.
I finally agree on a couple things he mentions.Yes the cost is enormous and yes it is a struggle to catch up in features compared to older games.
However how many games actually have features outside of following linear quests around then end game raiding?Then of course crafting,bu that has been a feature from day 1,so no catching up there either.
All these older games did was give us the basic platform to allow them to further tweak and be creative.However what i have seen is these older games put MORE effort in to the systems,than newer game.Everything i see in newer games always shouts out "done to speed up production".
I strongly disagree with the week to create a creature.What Wow displayed should have been 2-3 days maximum.I have seen guys post videos of them opening up a program and creating a animated creature from scratch in a matter of a couple hours.No they did not have a ton of vertices or anything fancy,but when i look at most creatures in games,it was identical.Moving elbow or shoulder joints,moving knee/hip joints and that is about it.Some of these designers just slap a lazy texture over the whole thing and cal lit a ROCK creature.
Yes i could see it taking time if they actually put all the work into the models and then shader's and tons of animated sequences,however many games look to be doing very little with their efforts.Then how about the scripted AI,i see again a lot of lazy efffort.Most if not all of these games have scripts that allow them to simply check off properties for every creature,they don't have to go in and individually script each one.This again takes effort to make sure there are lots of choices beyond the simple aggressive or not script.
There is ONLY one area i feel games need to improve and yes it might take added work but it is the most important.Quit with gimmicks and salesmen pitch about "we have the best raiding game bs",give me IN DEPTH systems.Take that simple sword swing and turn it into MANY different options.Take that simple crafting box with insert item here and press button and give us some depth and creativity.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
That's why there is absolutely no excuse for the state that this game is in right now. Two years of beta and they released it in this state? There is no way you can defend this game. I have seen it being mismanaged from the get-go with there need to spend huge amounts of money on things that weren't necessary. One example that jumps to mind right now is there huge ass MGU gaming bus. And for some reason they also needed to spend money on hiring comic book writers and artists to make a comic book for their game instead of focusing all that money into the game. Oh, and they also hired Lee Reherman (a former American football player) to cosplay for their game.
I just saw a huge amount of waste going on with this game when it came to how money was managed (or mismanaged in this case) and it makes me sad because indie developers would kill to have that kind of money to make their game the best that it could possibly be.
Smile
So I think your talking about Steam.
It does this very thing with indie games and puts players directly involved with the development process.
I completely agree with your article. Also you noticed me ranting about lowering costs on your last post. I am glad you answered my question.
Fact still remains that 8 weeks for a single monster creation is slightly ridiculous.
I am not a developer so I can't say much but if that really is the excuse then alot of developers should be ashamed of themselves as far as the over all looks of things. Very few MMO's actually look like they took 8 weeks to create anything almost. Only game that I have seen that looks this polished as of late is ARR. No offense even Firefall looks....meh.
I hope an MMO developer reads this and does what you suggested though. Think it would be very interesting.
MMORPG Gamers/Developers need a reality check!
Agreed. I'm tired of gamers making excuses for the genre and blaming the current slump on EQ / WoW copycatting. Too many game makers either suck or are clueless and are making crappy games period. I highly doubt it would make a difference if these same companies with their current lackluster games would be any better if they tried something completely new.
The business of making MMOs needs to be streamlined and frankly, there are too many developers being paid too high of a salary for the quality of their work. They're incredibly top heavy with far too many administrators who offer very little productivity for the cost. Something else must be going on here, because increases in technology and general MMO knowledge should be reducing costs, not adding to them. Technologically speaking, EQ was ahead of its time and much more complex than many of today's MMOs in regards to quality and quantity of systems, yet they managed to make the game relatively cost effective for that era.
"These days, with millions of polygons and multiple materials and shaders, a single monster can easily take 4-6 weeks to complete and sometimes 8 weeks or more for a boss creature."
Only Blizzard takes that long to make content. I just dont buy the excuse anymore. After having played Rift since release, watching them release entire raid zones, many with completely new models, etc and so forth, in as much time as Mark is saying Blizzard takes to create 1 boss mob. Yeah, i call BS.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Originally posted by Hrimnir
"These days, with millions of polygons and multiple materials and shaders, a single monster can easily take 4-6 weeks to complete and sometimes 8 weeks or more for a boss creature."
Only Blizzard takes that long to make content. I just dont buy the excuse anymore. After having played Rift since release, watching them release entire raid zones, many with completely new models, etc and so forth, in as much time as Mark is saying Blizzard takes to create 1 boss mob. Yeah, i call BS.
+1
Too early to call this. In case you hadn't been aware this idea of co-development has been around for a while now. Kick-Sstarter anyone? After a couple of these titles are released we'll be in a much better position to judge the effectiveness of the methodology.
I personally feel that player involvement in development cycles can be very detrimental. The community is divided and by and large, if the players were creative geniuses they'd be developing games too, not playing them.
Picasso could create art; his fans could not.
It still took people to come and see the art to realize it was a masterpiece. That should be saved and cherished and put in museums for generations to see.
Otherwise its just a beautiful painting no one will get to see.
Also comparing the two mediums doesn't work. Picasso didn't care if he made a dime off his paintings. He did it cause he wanted.
Developers want OUR money. So shouldnt I have a say about how you take MY money?
If not....I have some swamp land I want to sell you. You can't see it though and I have no photographs or deed or any actual proof I own it. Give me all your $$$$ pls?
MMORPG Gamers/Developers need a reality check!
in fact the real problem is the player it self always want pay to win instead start in dark and learning the game just like U.O
in Ultima online at is first time player have to discover every thing on the whit no clue for how this world work
but now before the go out every 1 already know every thing about game
THIS IS BORING ---- I WANT REAL ADVENTURE --- i am the first generation of gamer and i play all mmo since late 80's
but now i just have to play a month to get at the final big boss whitout make any effort and after reading the story same thing nothing to do and wait for the next story
well i guess until our civilisation grow up in wisdom nothing really interesting will come out
so far Minecraft beat every other mmo for 1 thing ( we have to create our story by ourself
but minecraft still limited so far PS: stop making game for money but for player have A REAL challenge to survive
"As developers, we need to share our work early and often, before we are so far along that we can’t make changes and adapt to players."
You may have a NEED to share your work early and often but, from my perspective, were I to develop a game, I would develop what I was going to develop and share nothing with anyone outside the company about anything until it was time for open beta. My take is that developers don't put enough effect into closed beta to make the game viable for open beta, so they get the crap kicked out of them during open beta.
My philosophy is two-fold... single-player game design companies don't have a closed or open beta, they make their games and release them, which leads me to the second fold of my philosophy... if you build it, they will come.
I understand MMOs are a whole lot bigger than single-player games, which is why there's a need for beta, at all, but you have to do absolutely everything you can during closed beta, not just pawn it off to three or four months of closed beta, and then 18 months of open. Of all the beta's I've participated in, I've actually found little wrong with any of them, except for some of the more extensive mechanics, and that's as it should be.
No, players need to stay out of having any information for the game whatsoever until it's time for open beta.
One would think so, however using a "3rd party" engine creates unique problems all it's own. The engine creator can only guess at all the possible features a dev house may want. This often results in even MORE time & $ devoted to tearing down the toolset/engine and re-engineering it to fit one's game IE SWTOR.
Conversely it can be so modularized towards plug and play toolsets that one environment/feature feels like a mirror/copy of everything else IE Cryptics various attempts at this.
To date several companies have tried marketing toolsets/engines to sell/license to mmo makers, but so far none have really worked out all that greatly. Part of the problem in this regard is only a moron is going to drop a dime for an "unproven" engine(case in point again SWTOR) while the only way to "prove" an engine is by actually making an mmo with it. Great however, the companies building mmo's just to market an engine are generally focused on that and not many of the other hurdles involed with mmo design(the crack Crptic kept falling into). And once you have a "proven" engine it's now 2-5 yrs old after your own development, then by the time your toolset/engine buyer gets it, tweaks it, then builds an mmo around it you start getting close to the decade old engine mark.
As far as the article yea very nicely thought out
I agree with the article. So many mistakes could be avoided if players could give feedback earlier on in the process. Whether it's weekends, monthly or even quarterly, these benchmarks would allow the devs to shape the game based on feedback of fans, while minimizing the risk of burn out.
I think a full week of public testing every quarter, with smaller focus tests as needed in between, would probably be a model worth considering.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
You can't innovate without taking a risk. That's the whole point of innovation, high risk high reward. There is such a thing as calculated risks but it's still risk.
IMHO the MMO game industry is saturated with companies trying to come up with gimmicks disguised as an innovation when it's just a contrived attempt at not being a clone of another game. If it ain't broke don't try to fix it.
TERA was action combat. Guild Wars 2 was dynamic events, The Secret World was the 500 Skill Wheel.
I honestly wish a company would just use a tried and tested engine, and take all the strong features from all the above and more and make a complete game play experience. Once that is done, wrap it in an engaging narrative that people care about. Then you can add your custom garnish to functionality.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
IMO, I don't think a games success is relied upon it's beta testings.. The only thing I can see positive coming out of early beta is "do we spend more money on this terrible game, or start over".. I have never heard of a game start over after 3 years, and turn around and be successful..
What has swayed me into supporting a game or not is based on the games core.. All the expensive bells and whistles mean little to me, and I don't beta would help in that regard.. Take a look at SWTOR, they could of done early beta and it wouldn't have helped, IMO.. MMO development does need to change, but there are far more important changes that need to happen first before what type of beta testing do we want..
Closed beta of 6 months and then a few months down time to make required changes and then release thats my opinion
and about the development time.... MONSTERS AND HOSTILE CREATURES DO NOT NEED EYE LASHES just get rid of all the useless details that the player cant see or doesnt have time to see while they are in combat. if they have time to admire some ridicilous details on monsters while they are fighting there is something wrong with the whole combat system
and those creatures that can be admired they would have some details to show off its all about shifting the focus to things that are actually important
how many of you are admiring the details on monsters while playing god of war? i know im not they are just goon number 1 and goon number 2 to me i dont care about their names or eye lashes
Nothing short of market collapse resulting in huge shrinking of both playerbase and amount of titles can save MMORPGs in long term.
Take note - I am talking about strictly MMORPGs, not about MMOFPS, MMOTPS, MMORTS, other non-RPG MMOs and about "shared" co-op games or other trash.
Why not?I, and a huge group of people are intelligent, successful professionals who game, and have for over 25 years. Does that make me experienced?
I think so.
I can only speak for myself, but I truly believe what has really happened is that devs have forgotten that a beta is for those that want to improve games, and treat it like a job. With rewards, not a mass influx of people who don't care, with devs that don't implement changes based on feedback.
I've beta tested 12 games over the years, starting with UO. I was in crowd when Rains assassinated Lord British.
and from what I've seen, the dedication of the beta testers, and the devs willing to listen to them has taken a huge hit over the years.
I am lucky to be able to say I was part of prettymuch every successful mmorpg's beta test to date, and the difference between the betas that were successful to those that weren't was the devs and testers taking that phase of development seriously, and using that feedback, to refine their game .
And Omg wall of text, sorry, mobile site hates paragraph breaks it seems
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
I don't agree with the author's "solution". I agree that things need to change, but getting the players involved earlier in the process won't reduce production costs. And how many of those players will spend a year or more beta testing and then play the game for a long time? They may already be bored of it by the time it goes live.
What game companies need to do is go modular. Don't try to reinvent the entire wheel. Pick one aspect of an MMO and create it in a way that sets it apart from the competition. Want dungeon crawling? Make a game that is just a big dungeon. Give the players cool abilities and give the dungeon intelligent mobs. Mob AI is so much less than it could be. Create 1 big dungeon with mobs that are both proactive and reactive. Mobs that react in intelligent ways based on the group and what the group does. Dynamic fights instead of scripted fights.
Want PvP? Then create a PvP system (arena, battleground, open world, whatever) that focuses just on that and make it as good as it can possibly be. Forget PvE. Forget quests.
By going modular, companies will be able to bring a game live much quicker and at much less cost. The players who enjoy that particular aspect of MMOs will get a game that is more innovative and focused on what they want. That will result in a more stable player base and a more profitable bottom line. The companies can then add other aspects to the game in a similar fashion, or remain within their niche and keep adding to that core module.
The author is correct that there's just too much expected in an MMO today. Game companies try to cater to every type of player and the result is a bland experience that ultimately satisfies no one. Do one thing and do it really well. Get it live and get the money coming in, then work on adding other MMO elements to the game.
Another idea would be to come up with a really good character system. Make it a game unto itself with housing and stuff. Then create a bunch of smaller, modular type games for those characters. So players would be able to create a character and then play as that character in multiple games. Characters could have lives and possessions that exist outside of the games in which they play. Abandoning a game would no longer mean abandoning the character that the player invested so much time into.
MMO companies need to start thinking on a smaller scale. Only then will innovation increase and cost decrease.