Of course, I can't imagine a caster wearing plate or wielding a sword.
you didnt play battlemage in Dragon Age nor built it in Skyrim
Just like I can't imagine a tank using a magic staff.
You didnt play Guardian in GW2.
So I assume those games can do those things, which is fine, just saying what I prefer. I prefer order and class balance, including gear choices specific to archetypes, it allows me to roleplay and immerse in the game more.
I think Gandalf and Tolkien would like to have a word with you...
Originally posted by nerovipus32 It's stupid that you can't use a sword or any other weapon because of the class you pick. Let people use whatever armour and weapons they like. Weapons and armour should have their own progression system.
+1 to this. With Advantages will come Disadvantages. Take that how you want but there can me a down side to using a type of gear/weapon to a specific class. Physical atks/defence Magic atk/defence stealth/ block/ run speed/ atk speed/ casting times all could be helps or hindered by the gear/weapons you use.
Could stealth be affected by a warrior wearing plate carrying a larg shield? Hell yes. He would be noisy and cumbersome. But if that same warrior had just a one handed sword and say leather gear on then he would be more effective.
Same can be said for any of the other classes. All im saying is if i want to make a Ogre wizard that uses a sword to shoot fireballs up your ass, i should be able to make one.
Of course, I can't imagine a caster wearing plate or wielding a sword.
you didnt play battlemage in Dragon Age nor built it in Skyrim
Just like I can't imagine a tank using a magic staff.
You didnt play Guardian in GW2.
So I assume those games can do those things, which is fine, just saying what I prefer. I prefer order and class balance, including gear choices specific to archetypes, it allows me to roleplay and immerse in the game more.
I think Gandalf and Tolkien would like to have a word with you...
I feel it already looks weird. It's so easy for an MMO to lose any sense of realism. It becomes a mish mash of armor like WoW that looks like a circus.
Of course, I can't imagine a caster wearing plate or wielding a sword.
you didnt play battlemage in Dragon Age nor built it in Skyrim
Just like I can't imagine a tank using a magic staff.
You didnt play Guardian in GW2.
So I assume those games can do those things, which is fine, just saying what I prefer. I prefer order and class balance, including gear choices specific to archetypes, it allows me to roleplay and immerse in the game more.
I think Gandalf and Tolkien would like to have a word with you...
I dont think Gandalf and Tolkien would be interested in classes's balance. We are talking about a game.
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it" -Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
Of course, I can't imagine a caster wearing plate or wielding a sword.
you didnt play battlemage in Dragon Age nor built it in Skyrim
Just like I can't imagine a tank using a magic staff.
You didnt play Guardian in GW2.
So I assume those games can do those things, which is fine, just saying what I prefer. I prefer order and class balance, including gear choices specific to archetypes, it allows me to roleplay and immerse in the game more.
I think Gandalf and Tolkien would like to have a word with you...
I feel it already looks weird. It's so easy for an MMO to lose any sense of realism. It becomes a mish mash of armor like WoW that looks like a circus.
Except WoW has fixed classes which don't break conventions (mages wear cloth and while they could at one point use swords there are no swords for mages, warriors wear plate and use greatweapons or 1 hander and shield, etc).
Originally posted by nerovipus32 It's stupid that you can't use a sword or any other weapon because of the class you pick. Let people use whatever armour and weapons they like. Weapons and armour should have their own progression system.
+1 to this. With Advantages will come Disadvantages. Take that how you want but there can me a down side to using a type of gear/weapon to a specific class. Physical atks/defence Magic atk/defence stealth/ block/ run speed/ atk speed/ casting times all could be helps or hindered by the gear/weapons you use.
Could stealth be affected by a warrior wearing plate carrying a larg shield? Hell yes. He would be noisy and cumbersome. But if that same warrior had just a one handed sword and say leather gear on then he would be more effective.
Same can be said for any of the other classes. All im saying is if i want to make a Ogre wizard that uses a sword to shoot fireballs up your ass, i should be able to make one.
I'm the same way, however there is a surprising number of players that would have a lot of trouble wrapping their heads around anything that violated their pre-existing stereotypes/archetypes. There have been some ways around it, but those lead to just different coded templates. For example, if you give a mage a knife as a primary weapon, he's no longer a mage, he's now a warlock and is expected to be bound by the rules of warlock, having a completely different set of skills and functionality. There's a certain amount of lunacy to class-restricted systems.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I feel it already looks weird. It's so easy for an MMO to lose any sense of realism. It becomes a mish mash of armor like WoW that looks like a circus.
Like my mace wielding hunter or bow shooting priest? Maybe you were referring to that plateclad dual-wield handaxe mage you had.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Of course, I can't imagine a caster wearing plate or wielding a sword.
you didnt play battlemage in Dragon Age nor built it in Skyrim
Just like I can't imagine a tank using a magic staff.
You didnt play Guardian in GW2.
So I assume those games can do those things, which is fine, just saying what I prefer. I prefer order and class balance, including gear choices specific to archetypes, it allows me to roleplay and immerse in the game more.
I think Gandalf and Tolkien would like to have a word with you...
I feel it already looks weird. It's so easy for an MMO to lose any sense of realism. It becomes a mish mash of armor like WoW that looks like a circus.
Except WoW has fixed classes which don't break conventions (mages wear cloth and while they could at one point use swords there are no swords for mages, warriors wear plate and use greatweapons or 1 hander and shield, etc).
Good point!
Waterlilly, in what way does an mmo have a sense of realism to you?
I would just like you to elaborate.
To me it's more important the game has a sense of self, it's own "realism" defined within the game world.
To me it's more important the game has a sense of self, it's own "realism" defined within the game world.
Very good point, because in the end that is where the focus of one's comparison usually is - here and now. If the physics and rules of the game world seem to fit the game world, it becomes an immersive environment, regardless of the physics or rules of any other world or universe.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
To me it's more important the game has a sense of self, it's own "realism" defined within the game world.
Very good point, because in the end that is where the focus of one's comparison usually is - here and now. If the physics and rules of the game world seem to fit the game world, it becomes an immersive environment, regardless of the physics or rules of any other world or universe.
I would side on this aspect too. I don't want to be predefined by some conception of what is and what isn't "realism" in a MMO.
Sorry it's been done already, and is IMHO the number one reason there is no community anymore.
Everyone wants to be able to do anything. I pray EQN does not do this, have classes with unique abilities, promote grouping, and say no to the destructive influence of the greatest threat to this genre :
Absolutley yes, And Norraths Lore and History dictate that , there is no way they have an open system ,people who want that sort if mess will have to look elsewhere.
Originally posted by Scorchien Absolutley yes, And Norraths Lore and History dictate that , there is no way they have an open system ,people who want that sort if mess will have to look elsewhere.
I am rather doubtful the lore dictates that people be fixed in a role for life . And even if were last I checked EQN is supposed to be a reboot of sorts so Lore and History count for jack :P.
Originally posted by Scorchien Absolutley yes, And Norraths Lore and History dictate that , there is no way they have an open system ,people who want that sort if mess will have to look elsewhere.
I am rather doubtful the lore dictates that people be fixed in a role for life . And even if were last I checked EQN is supposed to be a reboot of sorts so Lore and History count for jack :P.
Which completly explains this first Hompage art that is ripped right from EQ Lore and History , that also shows class and weapom /armor restrictions... but i know that dont mean jack either ..aint that rich
Chose 'no' because it's ridiculous that a wizard cannot physically put on a suit of chain mail, however I also think it's ridiculous that a wizard with 30 strength can wield a 2hs, wear heavy plate armor and run and swing just as effectively as an ogre warrior with 100 strength with the same amount of skill. That's why a character's attributes should tie in with their skill on how effective they are i.e. Ogre minimum starting strength is 70 and max starting intelligence is 30 or gnome minimum intelligence is 70 and max starting strength is 30.
Originally posted by Scorchien Absolutley yes, And Norraths Lore and History dictate that , there is no way they have an open system ,people who want that sort if mess will have to look elsewhere.
I am rather doubtful the lore dictates that people be fixed in a role for life . And even if were last I checked EQN is supposed to be a reboot of sorts so Lore and History count for jack :P.
Which completly explains this first Hompage art that is ripped right from EQ Lore and History , that also shows class and weapom /armor restrictions... but i know that dont mean jack either ..aint that rich
Yeah... classes... what looks like a rogue in plate mail, a warrior in leather armor and a ranger with a greatweapon. People see what they want to see, a good example is this:
Just wanted to hit on some of the high (low?) points from the thread so far... My apologies to any who read the following and are not familiar with all the background, debate counterpoints, and references... but it would be a five page post to try to explain it all in depth. I suspect most here are quite familiar with the arguments on all of this, both pro and con.
RPG tradition
I can't speak definitively to all the possible variants of D&D, obviously, but all the core rulebooks I have on the shelf (I've been playing pen-and-paper RPGs since 1978), ranging from Basic D&D blue box, through AD&D, 3e, 3.5/OGL, and 4e, apply strong weapon and armor restrictions to certain classes, in particular Wizards/Magic-Users. Better examples of games which do not include such limits are RuneQuest and Rolemaster, although they do have other subsystems which in particular discourage armor use by magicians (encumbrance penalties to spell casting, high development point costs for armor/weapon skills, etc.)
Balance
The tank-mage and dex-monkey eras in UO have obviously had a lasting impact on MMO design for many years, and I think most who actually endured it would agree it is for a good reason. I do personally think, however, that there are a variety of methods to allow more exotic combinations while maintaining effective limits on overall power and avoiding any overpowered "Flavor of the Month"/all-characters-are-the-same-because-they-all-have-the-"best"-build syndrome.
I should mention that I have heard multiple devs offer presentations/blog posts/forum posts over the years warning that more options=less distinctiveness, as everyone migrates to the "best" option over time... to the point that I think it has become a truism in the industry, whether necessarily true or not.
My opinion
Based on what I've seen/read re EQN so far, I suspect it will retain strong class-based armor/weapon restrictions, but offer some relief thru multi-classing, much like D&D. I'd like to see some more experimentation with alternative systems based on other RPG systems/traditions, but I strongly doubt EQN will be the title to do so... it's focus for innovation is elsewhere, I suspect.
Originally posted by Scorchien Absolutley yes, And Norraths Lore and History dictate that , there is no way they have an open system ,people who want that sort if mess will have to look elsewhere.
I am rather doubtful the lore dictates that people be fixed in a role for life . And even if were last I checked EQN is supposed to be a reboot of sorts so Lore and History count for jack :P.
Which completly explains this first Hompage art that is ripped right from EQ Lore and History , that also shows class and weapom /armor restrictions... but i know that dont mean jack either ..aint that rich
Yeah... classes... what looks like a rogue in plate mail, a warrior in leather armor and a ranger with a greatweapon. People see what they want to see, a good example is this:
and in some cases , People dont see what they dont want to see.. like now
Just wanted to hit on some of the high (low?) points from the thread so far... My apologies to any who read the following and are not familiar with all the background, debate counterpoints, and references... but it would be a five page post to try to explain it all in depth. I suspect most here are quite familiar with the arguments on all of this, both pro and con.
RPG tradition
I can't speak definitively to all the possible variants of D&D, obviously, but all the core rulebooks I have on the shelf (I've been playing pen-and-paper RPGs since 1978), ranging from Basic D&D blue box, through AD&D, 3e, 3.5/OGL, and 4e, apply strong weapon and armor restrictions to certain classes, in particular Wizards/Magic-Users. Better examples of games which do not include such limits are RuneQuest and Rolemaster, although they do have other subsystems which in particular discourage armor use by magicians (encumbrance penalties to spell casting, high development point costs for armor/weapon skills, etc.)
Balance
The tank-mage and dex-monkey eras in UO have obviously had a lasting impact on MMO design for many years, and I think most who actually endured it would agree it is for a good reason. I do personally think, however, that there are a variety of methods to allow more exotic combinations while maintaining effective limits on overall power and avoiding any overpowered "Flavor of the Month"/all-characters-are-the-same-because-they-all-have-the-"best"-build syndrome.
I should mention that I have heard multiple devs offer presentations/blog posts/forum posts over the years warning that more options=less distinctiveness, as everyone migrates to the "best" option over time... to the point that I think it has become a truism in the industry, whether necessarily true or not.
My opinion
Based on what I've seen/read re EQN so far, I suspect it will retain strong class-based armor/weapon restrictions, but offer some relief thru multi-classing, much like D&D. I'd like to see some more experimentation with alternative systems based on other RPG systems/traditions, but I strongly doubt EQN will be the title to do so... it's focus for innovation is elsewhere, I suspect.
First off I was never suggesting using magic and heavy plates (for example) would be the best build, it would have higher defense but have penalties to spell power and possibly mana regeneration to offset the brick like nature of its defense... basically you could have any build you want but it would not lend itself to the flavor of the month builds which if I may point out still exist in games even with a fixed class system ( the paladin at one point in WoW was impossible to beat in PVP for example ).
The system I'd want is one where nothing is better and options are given for the user, be it in a multi-class system or in a freeform profession system with a cap on how many points you can invest where. The min/max builds will always exist but in a organic system you have the tools to try and counter it and not just wait for the devs to fix it.
Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scorchien Absolutley yes, And Norraths Lore and History dictate that , there is no way they have an open system ,people who want that sort if mess will have to look elsewhere.
I am rather doubtful the lore dictates that people be fixed in a role for life . And even if were last I checked EQN is supposed to be a reboot of sorts so Lore and History count for jack :P.
Which completly explains this first Hompage art that is ripped right from EQ Lore and History , that also shows class and weapom /armor restrictions... but i know that dont mean jack either ..aint that rich
Yeah... classes... what looks like a rogue in plate mail, a warrior in leather armor and a ranger with a greatweapon. People see what they want to see, a good example is this:
and in some cases , People dont see what they dont want to see.. like now
All sandbox or sandbox-like games have a degree of class flexibility beyond that found in themepark games, enjoy your illusions I will be waiting for you in-game when the time comes in a plated ranger with a maul.
Just wanted to hit on some of the high (low?) points from the thread so far... My apologies to any who read the following and are not familiar with all the background, debate counterpoints, and references... but it would be a five page post to try to explain it all in depth. I suspect most here are quite familiar with the arguments on all of this, both pro and con.
RPG tradition
I can't speak definitively to all the possible variants of D&D, obviously, but all the core rulebooks I have on the shelf (I've been playing pen-and-paper RPGs since 1978), ranging from Basic D&D blue box, through AD&D, 3e, 3.5/OGL, and 4e, apply strong weapon and armor restrictions to certain classes, in particular Wizards/Magic-Users. Better examples of games which do not include such limits are RuneQuest and Rolemaster, although they do have other subsystems which in particular discourage armor use by magicians (encumbrance penalties to spell casting, high development point costs for armor/weapon skills, etc.)
Balance
The tank-mage and dex-monkey eras in UO have obviously had a lasting impact on MMO design for many years, and I think most who actually endured it would agree it is for a good reason. I do personally think, however, that there are a variety of methods to allow more exotic combinations while maintaining effective limits on overall power and avoiding any overpowered "Flavor of the Month"/all-characters-are-the-same-because-they-all-have-the-"best"-build syndrome.
I should mention that I have heard multiple devs offer presentations/blog posts/forum posts over the years warning that more options=less distinctiveness, as everyone migrates to the "best" option over time... to the point that I think it has become a truism in the industry, whether necessarily true or not.
My opinion
Based on what I've seen/read re EQN so far, I suspect it will retain strong class-based armor/weapon restrictions, but offer some relief thru multi-classing, much like D&D. I'd like to see some more experimentation with alternative systems based on other RPG systems/traditions, but I strongly doubt EQN will be the title to do so... it's focus for innovation is elsewhere, I suspect.
First off I was never suggesting using magic and heavy plates (for example) would be the best build, it would have higher defense but have penalties to spell power and possibly mana regeneration to offset the brick like nature of its defense... basically you could have any build you want but it would not lend itself to the flavor of the month builds which if I may point out still exist in games even with a fixed class system ( the paladin at one point in WoW was impossible to beat in PVP for example ).
The system I'd want is one where nothing is better and options are given for the user, be it in a multi-class system or in a freeform profession system with a cap on how many points you can invest where. The min/max builds will always exist but in a organic system you have the tools to try and counter it and not just wait for the devs to fix it.
Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scorchien Absolutley yes, And Norraths Lore and History dictate that , there is no way they have an open system ,people who want that sort if mess will have to look elsewhere.
I am rather doubtful the lore dictates that people be fixed in a role for life . And even if were last I checked EQN is supposed to be a reboot of sorts so Lore and History count for jack :P.
Which completly explains this first Hompage art that is ripped right from EQ Lore and History , that also shows class and weapom /armor restrictions... but i know that dont mean jack either ..aint that rich
Yeah... classes... what looks like a rogue in plate mail, a warrior in leather armor and a ranger with a greatweapon. People see what they want to see, a good example is this:
and in some cases , People dont see what they dont want to see.. like now
All sandbox or sandbox-like games have a degree of class flexibility beyond that found in themepark games, enjoy your illusions I will be waiting for you in-game when the time comes in a plated ranger with a maul.
Except your image betrays plate-like armor on the ranger-like character (leather is bulkier than that and chain has...well chains).
well obviously you know less about EQ classes than i thought , maybe stick to a subject you know more about like folding paper.. or go research EQ rangers a bit
you know if you like a fantasy game then live by the fantasy rules, after all if you cant then there is Champions or DC universe online to play.. All I am saying you have to live by the game's rules you don't have to like them or agree to them all.
Comments
I think Gandalf and Tolkien would like to have a word with you...
+1 to this. With Advantages will come Disadvantages. Take that how you want but there can me a down side to using a type of gear/weapon to a specific class. Physical atks/defence Magic atk/defence stealth/ block/ run speed/ atk speed/ casting times all could be helps or hindered by the gear/weapons you use.
Could stealth be affected by a warrior wearing plate carrying a larg shield? Hell yes. He would be noisy and cumbersome. But if that same warrior had just a one handed sword and say leather gear on then he would be more effective.
Same can be said for any of the other classes. All im saying is if i want to make a Ogre wizard that uses a sword to shoot fireballs up your ass, i should be able to make one.
I feel it already looks weird. It's so easy for an MMO to lose any sense of realism. It becomes a mish mash of armor like WoW that looks like a circus.
I dont think Gandalf and Tolkien would be interested in classes's balance. We are talking about a game.
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
Except WoW has fixed classes which don't break conventions (mages wear cloth and while they could at one point use swords there are no swords for mages, warriors wear plate and use greatweapons or 1 hander and shield, etc).
I'm the same way, however there is a surprising number of players that would have a lot of trouble wrapping their heads around anything that violated their pre-existing stereotypes/archetypes. There have been some ways around it, but those lead to just different coded templates. For example, if you give a mage a knife as a primary weapon, he's no longer a mage, he's now a warlock and is expected to be bound by the rules of warlock, having a completely different set of skills and functionality. There's a certain amount of lunacy to class-restricted systems.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Like my mace wielding hunter or bow shooting priest? Maybe you were referring to that plateclad dual-wield handaxe mage you had.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Good point!
Waterlilly, in what way does an mmo have a sense of realism to you?
I would just like you to elaborate.
To me it's more important the game has a sense of self, it's own "realism" defined within the game world.
SWG, Eve, Planetside 2, EQN, Star Citizen
Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !
Very good point, because in the end that is where the focus of one's comparison usually is - here and now. If the physics and rules of the game world seem to fit the game world, it becomes an immersive environment, regardless of the physics or rules of any other world or universe.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I would side on this aspect too. I don't want to be predefined by some conception of what is and what isn't "realism" in a MMO.
"Variety is the spice of life" my MMO life.
Sorry it's been done already, and is IMHO the number one reason there is no community anymore.
Everyone wants to be able to do anything. I pray EQN does not do this, have classes with unique abilities, promote grouping, and say no to the destructive influence of the greatest threat to this genre :
Lazy, antisocial people.
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
I am rather doubtful the lore dictates that people be fixed in a role for life
. And even if were last I checked EQN is supposed to be a reboot of sorts so Lore and History count for jack :P.
Which completly explains this first Hompage art that is ripped right from EQ Lore and History , that also shows class and weapom /armor restrictions... but i know that dont mean jack either ..aint that rich
https://www.everquestnext.com/
Yeah... classes... what looks like a rogue in plate mail, a warrior in leather armor and a ranger with a greatweapon. People see what they want to see, a good example is this:
Blogging semi-regularly at http://damianov.wordpress.com
and in some cases , People dont see what they dont want to see.. like now
First off I was never suggesting using magic and heavy plates (for example) would be the best build, it would have higher defense but have penalties to spell power and possibly mana regeneration to offset the brick like nature of its defense... basically you could have any build you want but it would not lend itself to the flavor of the month builds which if I may point out still exist in games even with a fixed class system ( the paladin at one point in WoW was impossible to beat in PVP for example ).
The system I'd want is one where nothing is better and options are given for the user, be it in a multi-class system or in a freeform profession system with a cap on how many points you can invest where. The min/max builds will always exist but in a organic system you have the tools to try and counter it and not just wait for the devs to fix it.
All sandbox or sandbox-like games have a degree of class flexibility beyond that found in themepark games, enjoy your illusions I will be waiting for you in-game when the time comes in a plated ranger with a maul.
Nahh you will be restricted to chain ..lmao
Except your image betrays plate-like armor on the ranger-like character
(leather is bulkier than that and chain has...well chains).
well obviously you know less about EQ classes than i thought , maybe stick to a subject you know more about like folding paper.. or go research EQ rangers a bit