Alright I think I understand what some people are thinking.
If you were a LOOT WHORE in Everquest then yeah, I'm sure you don't want camping back becuase you were willing to sit on your ass for 8 hours wating for a negligible gear drop.
So no, this definitely isn't about adding rare loot drops to bait some idiots into staying in one spot for marathon sessions.
I'm talking about actual gameplay, just setting up in one spot and gaining decent exp in a group instead of blowing through dungeons or doing easy solo quests. There should be reasonable loot drops but no, I'm not advocating rare spawns for people to fight over. It most definitely does not need to be done that way ever again.
So in your opinion - how do you keep a mob you need for a quest drop or a mob who drops rare loot from being overcamped?
Would you make it so they are triggered? Would you put them in an instance? Or would they not be a rare spawn but instead pop every time? And if they pop every time, how do you keep it from being camped and allowing access to the mob to anyone who needs it?
Would camp spots all be equal? Would some be better than others? Would there be enough for anyone who had a group to find a decent camp? Would you want 100 groups taking up the camps while 300 groups ran around aimlessly shouting "camp check"? Would you want a condition where you had to sit outside of a group and wait for someone to leave to get into said camp?
Pretty simple really. I would love camping back. But the very real issues of camping in EQ would have to be addressed. There is a reason no other game since has had the same mechanic in their game.
I doubt you mean that it should be just like EQ and dismiss all the paying customers who want to complete a quest or gain a rare item as WHORES.
For me personally, I dont see the benefit of having a quest hub where I run around gathering quests and skipping most dialogue so that I can get to the desired end result faster which for me would be killing mobs. If im in the mood for questing and exploring I will seek that out in the game.
I prefer not to feel forced to follow a trail of breadcrumbs in order to do what I feel like in a game. If I want straight mindless killing of mobs, I would like the option to go to my desired zone and join a camp group. If there were some achievements, random events, crafting related quests that were tied into the mobs in that zone that would be even better.
And when I am burnt out on camping spawns, I will move on to something else. Perhaps then I will be in the mood for quests and would be interested in following the quest dialogue. Options are everything to me. Explore, kill, quest, craft, build these should all be rewarding, enjoyable and viable.
So yes, camping would be welcome if it was spruced up a little from the camps of old. I see alot of opinions strongly for or against camping, but isnt there room for multiple venues of enjoyment in a single mmo?
I mainly play SWTOR these days and they have several open world Heroic areas along with a group quest for each. You can't solo these areas and group finder doesn't help so you have to build a group EQ-style.
The money, exp and loot quality is better but the real reward comes from turning in the quest. So it's not about hunting one certain mob and hoping for a certain drop.
The only issue I have with it is the quests are designed to be finished in half an hour so everybody splits when I'm just getting warmed up. I could easily hang out for at least another hour.
So that's a case where the game already almost has it right...it would just take some added objectives to extend the quests and keep the group together longer.
I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.
Nobody want to gimp their progress just to bring back old memories. I'm sure what's being discussed is a game where it's the best viable way to progress for everyone.
'Best' to gamers is semantically equivalent to 'Only'.
Note the great masses of individuals who believe that because Questing is the path of least resistance, it is the only way to play in a themepark.
"But I hate questing!" "So, don't do it?"
"But I hate PuGing!" "So, don't do it?"
"But I hate PVP!" "So, don't flag up" (Note: in certain titles this option will not be available)
"But I hate PVE!" "So, play only on a PVP server and don't do all of those things up there?"
"But I hate anything WoW ever did!" "So..don't do those things?"
"But I hate <list of things in GameX>" "So..go play GameY instead?"
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.
Nobody want to gimp their progress just to bring back old memories. I'm sure what's being discussed is a game where it's the best viable way to progress for everyone.
'Best' to gamers is semantically equivalent to 'Only'.
Note the great masses of individuals who believe that because Questing is the path of least resistance, it is the only way to play in a themepark.
"But I hate questing!" "So, don't do it?"
"But I hate PuGing!" "So, don't do it?"
"But I hate PVP!" "So, don't flag up" (Note: in certain titles this option will not be available)
"But I hate PVE!" "So, play only on a PVP server and don't do all of those things up there?"
"But I hate anything WoW ever did!" "So..don't do those things?"
"But I hate " "So..go play GameY instead?"
Then why are 99% of questparks failing? The best some do is splash and crash?
And why does an unfriendly space PVP sandbox game succeed so well?
We are going to play "GameY" instead and "GameY" is EQ Next, and it's going to be a grand game, I predict.
They're not. Most, once they re-tooled their systems for today's demographic and market, are making money hand over fist with populations that equal or surpass older games in a far far far more competitive environment.
Even the dreaded and tragically failed swtor has more subscribers than eve, and 4 times more active f2p players.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Alright I think I understand what some people are thinking.
If you were a LOOT WHORE in Everquest then yeah, I'm sure you don't want camping back becuase you were willing to sit on your ass for 8 hours wating for a negligible gear drop.
So no, this definitely isn't about adding rare loot drops to bait some idiots into staying in one spot for marathon sessions.
I'm talking about actual gameplay, just setting up in one spot and gaining decent exp in a group instead of blowing through dungeons or doing easy solo quests. There should be reasonable loot drops but no, I'm not advocating rare spawns for people to fight over. It most definitely does not need to be done that way ever again.
Most MMORPG players don't play for more than 2 hours a day on average. Having any sort of camping system almost completely shuts them out from even getting gear from a camped mob.
I don't know how many camped exp based games you've played, but in the ones I played, the situation often went a lot like this:
You get a group set up, you head to primo spot A. It's completely filled
You then head to primo spot B which is not as good as A. It's also completely filled.
You then head to primo spot C which is worse than A and B. It's filled.
You then head to spot D and find that the exp is pretty terrible and the party disbands.
Camp EXP is fun ONLY in the off chance that you are in the prime locations at a time when no other people are exping. The rest of the time its like a bunch of hungry dogs just searching for scraps before giving up.
In short, Don't blame the general audience for having diverse interest, blame the companies for not being focused enough. If a games design is shallow they are going to get shallow players and vice versa for much deeper games. Deep games doesn't necessarily make everyone happy but their customers tend to be around for years i.e. EVE Online. They are considered successful at below 1 million subscribers.
Why would anyone want 1M (Eve is more like 0.5M) when you can get 2M? GW2 got 2M in the first 2 weeks.
Yeah Jairoe03. Why would you want 1M long term dedicated players who add revenue towards the game consistently when you can have 2M sporadic game jumping players who will complain about the game until things are changed and provide short term miniscule amounts of cash to the game to boot?
Because you make more money, of course. You think GW2 (B2P), and all the F2P games are doing it because of the goodness of their hearts?
So yes, camping would be welcome if it was spruced up a little from the camps of old. I see alot of opinions strongly for or against camping, but isnt there room for multiple venues of enjoyment in a single mmo?
There is only room for venues that have an audience. And there are multiple venues .. instanced dungeons, arena pvp, collecting pets, and so on.
Camping is a bad design. Either
a) you have to wait .. and no one wants that.
b) or you just kill the mobs at the same room/place non-stop... and so if you just want to kill mobs, why do it at the same place? Move along a dungeon for example, is way more fun (to me) because you get different terrain (room layout) and if the combat mechanics is good in utilizing terrain geometry, it is more fun if you move around.
1. hanging out with a group of people that have some personality 2. enjoying the scenery/ambience 3. watching your character's (and others') performance fighting mobs 4. earning some coin you can use later 5. bumping into/saying hi to other groups 6. having a chance at some loot that you would really like. 7. having IMs with other friends or guild mates. 8. occasionally getting (hopefully accidental) trained and either helping out or running your a$$ off. 9. occasionally getting an overcon roamer or pulling too much, requiring a hasty exit.
For RPGs, I prefer a chill experience with exciting moments, rather than FPS-style action and endless busywork tasks.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
1. hanging out with a group of people that have some personality 2. enjoying the scenery/ambience 3. watching your character's (and others') performance fighting mobs 4. earning some coin you can use later 5. bumping into/saying hi to other groups 6. having a chance at some loot that you would really like. 7. having IMs with other friends or guild mates.
I much prefer this chill, yet exciting, approach over the A.D.D. busywork of modern day themeparks.
None of the stuff you talk about is either appealing to me, or need camping to do.
1. I don't play games to hang out. I hang out in chat rooms.
2. In the same spot and same room? The same scenary got boring in 5 min.
3. if i want to watch others, i go watch e-sports.
4. What has camping has to do with this? There are lots of activities that earn coins in MMOs.
5. Really? Saying "hi"? If i want to say hi, i can do it all day around my office.
6. And the chance is higher if there is no other group around.
How about Instanced camping! Any group can have their own private camp! (I'm sure that would go over well...lol)
The question is why staying in the same room is fun?
It's not (to me). Grinding mobs for XP sounds like the most boring game style I can think of. Sure there could be occasional memorable fun if you are with friends, but that is true in any playstyle. To just stand around and kill the same mobs over and over and over sounds really dull to me.
No to having camping be the most viable way to level.
That's boring as hell.
This x 1000
There's a reason why MMO's were even more Niche back I nthe early days and it's because of this horrible game system. As much as I hate questing I'd still rather grind 9000 quests then camp for 9 minutes. Absolutely the worst aspect of games like EQ and DAoC and I'll never play a game that forced camping to level.
If you want to camp do so, if its so popular as people say it is then they'll join together to wax nostalgia. But forcing naything, let alone a leveling technique is 100% deal breaker for me and likely many others. The days of being forced to do anything is dying and the option of choice is the future of MMO design IMO.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
How about Instanced camping! Any group can have their own private camp! (I'm sure that would go over well...lol)
The question is why staying in the same room is fun?
It's not (to me). Grinding mobs for XP sounds like the most boring game style I can think of. Sure there could be occasional memorable fun if you are with friends, but that is true in any playstyle. To just stand around and kill the same mobs over and over and over sounds really dull to me.
Yeah... that is teh issue to me too.
If i just want to kill/farm mobs .. following a dungeon route is 10x more fun. You get to see different terrain, and fight different mobs.
Originally posted by nariusseldon None of the stuff you talk about is either appealing to me, or need camping to do.1. I don't play well with others.2. I have a.d.d.3. See item 1.4. See item 25. See item 16. See item 17. See item 2
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Camping was a way by which developers made quests hard. Ok no, thats wrong, hard is the wrong word. Camping was a way by which developers applied a time frame to equate to the reward given at the end. The longer a quest took, the greater the reward.
A very imperfect system.
Unfortunately, nothing replaced it when it went away and we got the sad sack questing we have now with the added kicker of instant gratification thru "if its too hard buy it in a cash shop".
Qudos to Secret World for decent quests or at least attempting at them. Even though I no longer play that game it had some of the best I have seen in a long time, too bad the UI and combat mechanics were not to my liking.
Camping was a way by which developers made quests hard. Ok no, thats wrong, hard is the wrong word. Camping was a way by which developers applied a time frame to equate to the reward given at the end. The longer a quest took, the greater the reward.
Exactly, they should do it with the level of challenge instead.
Like wow .. LFR, normal and hard mode raid. Hard mode gets you better stuff. You never have to wait to do any of those. You never have to stay and stare at the same room to do any of those.
5. Really? Saying "hi"? If i want to say hi, i can do it all day around my office.
Are you for real?
You play games to say "hi" to strangers?
Yes, part of MMO is social interaction.
When you join a group, you say hi. When you join a guild you say hi. When someone sends you a message you say hi.
I'm guessing you're really young or you have no concept of social interaction. Do you just walk up to strangers in RL without saying hi?
Games are not RL.
I socialize enough in the RL that i don't need to do it in my games.
And many MMOs can be played with minimal social interaction. You haven't notice? I can LFD, queue for pvp all day without saying hi in a MMO, unlike the RL.
And many MMOs can be played with minimal social interaction. You haven't notice? I can LFD, queue for pvp all day without saying hi in a MMO, unlike the RL.
How do you even join a guild if you refuse to even say hi to people?
Comments
So in your opinion - how do you keep a mob you need for a quest drop or a mob who drops rare loot from being overcamped?
Would you make it so they are triggered? Would you put them in an instance? Or would they not be a rare spawn but instead pop every time? And if they pop every time, how do you keep it from being camped and allowing access to the mob to anyone who needs it?
Would camp spots all be equal? Would some be better than others? Would there be enough for anyone who had a group to find a decent camp? Would you want 100 groups taking up the camps while 300 groups ran around aimlessly shouting "camp check"? Would you want a condition where you had to sit outside of a group and wait for someone to leave to get into said camp?
Pretty simple really. I would love camping back. But the very real issues of camping in EQ would have to be addressed. There is a reason no other game since has had the same mechanic in their game.
I doubt you mean that it should be just like EQ and dismiss all the paying customers who want to complete a quest or gain a rare item as WHORES.
For me personally, I dont see the benefit of having a quest hub where I run around gathering quests and skipping most dialogue so that I can get to the desired end result faster which for me would be killing mobs. If im in the mood for questing and exploring I will seek that out in the game.
I prefer not to feel forced to follow a trail of breadcrumbs in order to do what I feel like in a game. If I want straight mindless killing of mobs, I would like the option to go to my desired zone and join a camp group. If there were some achievements, random events, crafting related quests that were tied into the mobs in that zone that would be even better.
And when I am burnt out on camping spawns, I will move on to something else. Perhaps then I will be in the mood for quests and would be interested in following the quest dialogue. Options are everything to me. Explore, kill, quest, craft, build these should all be rewarding, enjoyable and viable.
So yes, camping would be welcome if it was spruced up a little from the camps of old. I see alot of opinions strongly for or against camping, but isnt there room for multiple venues of enjoyment in a single mmo?
The money, exp and loot quality is better but the real reward comes from turning in the quest. So it's not about hunting one certain mob and hoping for a certain drop.
The only issue I have with it is the quests are designed to be finished in half an hour so everybody splits when I'm just getting warmed up. I could easily hang out for at least another hour.
So that's a case where the game already almost has it right...it would just take some added objectives to extend the quests and keep the group together longer.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
Camping for me has a limited appeal. It's something that I don't mind doing sometimes, but I wouldn't want it to be an all the time kind of thing.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
'Best' to gamers is semantically equivalent to 'Only'.
Note the great masses of individuals who believe that because Questing is the path of least resistance, it is the only way to play in a themepark.
"But I hate questing!" "So, don't do it?"
"But I hate PuGing!" "So, don't do it?"
"But I hate PVP!" "So, don't flag up" (Note: in certain titles this option will not be available)
"But I hate PVE!" "So, play only on a PVP server and don't do all of those things up there?"
"But I hate anything WoW ever did!" "So..don't do those things?"
"But I hate <list of things in GameX>" "So..go play GameY instead?"
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Free to play = content updates for the cash shop. Buy to play = content updates for the cash shop.
Subscription = Actual content updates!
They're not. Most, once they re-tooled their systems for today's demographic and market, are making money hand over fist with populations that equal or surpass older games in a far far far more competitive environment.
Even the dreaded and tragically failed swtor has more subscribers than eve, and 4 times more active f2p players.
Most MMORPG players don't play for more than 2 hours a day on average. Having any sort of camping system almost completely shuts them out from even getting gear from a camped mob.
I don't know how many camped exp based games you've played, but in the ones I played, the situation often went a lot like this:
You get a group set up, you head to primo spot A. It's completely filled
You then head to primo spot B which is not as good as A. It's also completely filled.
You then head to primo spot C which is worse than A and B. It's filled.
You then head to spot D and find that the exp is pretty terrible and the party disbands.
Camp EXP is fun ONLY in the off chance that you are in the prime locations at a time when no other people are exping. The rest of the time its like a bunch of hungry dogs just searching for scraps before giving up.
Because you make more money, of course. You think GW2 (B2P), and all the F2P games are doing it because of the goodness of their hearts?
Sub games are dying.
There is only room for venues that have an audience. And there are multiple venues .. instanced dungeons, arena pvp, collecting pets, and so on.
Camping is a bad design. Either
a) you have to wait .. and no one wants that.
b) or you just kill the mobs at the same room/place non-stop... and so if you just want to kill mobs, why do it at the same place? Move along a dungeon for example, is way more fun (to me) because you get different terrain (room layout) and if the combat mechanics is good in utilizing terrain geometry, it is more fun if you move around.
How about Instanced camping! Any group can have their own private camp! (I'm sure that would go over well...lol)
The question is why staying in the same room is fun?
Sign me up for camping. To me this means:
1. hanging out with a group of people that have some personality
2. enjoying the scenery/ambience
3. watching your character's (and others') performance fighting mobs
4. earning some coin you can use later
5. bumping into/saying hi to other groups
6. having a chance at some loot that you would really like.
7. having IMs with other friends or guild mates.
8. occasionally getting (hopefully accidental) trained and either helping out or running your a$$ off.
9. occasionally getting an overcon roamer or pulling too much, requiring a hasty exit.
For RPGs, I prefer a chill experience with exciting moments, rather than FPS-style action and endless busywork tasks.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
None of the stuff you talk about is either appealing to me, or need camping to do.
1. I don't play games to hang out. I hang out in chat rooms.
2. In the same spot and same room? The same scenary got boring in 5 min.
3. if i want to watch others, i go watch e-sports.
4. What has camping has to do with this? There are lots of activities that earn coins in MMOs.
5. Really? Saying "hi"? If i want to say hi, i can do it all day around my office.
6. And the chance is higher if there is no other group around.
7. I can do that without camping.
It's not (to me). Grinding mobs for XP sounds like the most boring game style I can think of. Sure there could be occasional memorable fun if you are with friends, but that is true in any playstyle. To just stand around and kill the same mobs over and over and over sounds really dull to me.
This x 1000
There's a reason why MMO's were even more Niche back I nthe early days and it's because of this horrible game system. As much as I hate questing I'd still rather grind 9000 quests then camp for 9 minutes. Absolutely the worst aspect of games like EQ and DAoC and I'll never play a game that forced camping to level.
If you want to camp do so, if its so popular as people say it is then they'll join together to wax nostalgia. But forcing naything, let alone a leveling technique is 100% deal breaker for me and likely many others. The days of being forced to do anything is dying and the option of choice is the future of MMO design IMO.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Yeah... that is teh issue to me too.
If i just want to kill/farm mobs .. following a dungeon route is 10x more fun. You get to see different terrain, and fight different mobs.
In other words...
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Are you for real?
Camping was a way by which developers made quests hard. Ok no, thats wrong, hard is the wrong word. Camping was a way by which developers applied a time frame to equate to the reward given at the end. The longer a quest took, the greater the reward.
A very imperfect system.
Unfortunately, nothing replaced it when it went away and we got the sad sack questing we have now with the added kicker of instant gratification thru "if its too hard buy it in a cash shop".
Qudos to Secret World for decent quests or at least attempting at them. Even though I no longer play that game it had some of the best I have seen in a long time, too bad the UI and combat mechanics were not to my liking.
You play games to say "hi" to strangers?
Exactly, they should do it with the level of challenge instead.
Like wow .. LFR, normal and hard mode raid. Hard mode gets you better stuff. You never have to wait to do any of those. You never have to stay and stare at the same room to do any of those.
Yes, part of MMO is social interaction.
When you join a group, you say hi. When you join a guild you say hi. When someone sends you a message you say hi.
I'm guessing you're really young or you have no concept of social interaction. Do you just walk up to strangers in RL without saying hi?
Games are not RL.
I socialize enough in the RL that i don't need to do it in my games.
And many MMOs can be played with minimal social interaction. You haven't notice? I can LFD, queue for pvp all day without saying hi in a MMO, unlike the RL.
How do you even join a guild if you refuse to even say hi to people?