Well... you kinda missed the point. No matter what the system is, it has to be a good one. I still cannot pre-judge a game by a system I haven't tried. I have played twitch games that are good and twitch games that are bad, so I still can't answer the poll.
And please refrain from acting as if twitch gaming is the kind where 'your skill as a player mattered the most'. I have seen master twitch teens who crumble in the face of an EQ raid.
Yes, it takes some* knowledge/skill to play EQ. But the point is that in level/gear/ability point progression system based games, no matter how good you are, you're only as good as your "character's power". Take the greatest EQ player that ever lived, and place him up against a lvl undead mob 50 (solo mob) on a lvl 5 character. He will never* win the fight. Ever. He won't even be allowed to do any damage to the mob.
Likewise, take the greatest Counter Strike player on the planet, and drop him into PS2 with all the starter weapons and such. He will still be a great asset to the team and kill many, many people. This is the difference between a level based game and a "skill" based game.
The difference between real skill and "your character's power" creating the illusion of skill.
I prefer it to be more focused on Player skill>Character skill>gear.
Most mmo's it's
character skill>gear>player skill.
A game like Planetside 2 is an example of what some people are talking about. Where while you do "gain" power and things, it's more of a horizonital progression vs vertical. A new player can still (with player skill) be deadly, and kill someone who's played longer and has better gear/more unlocks.
Though I think it can be taken deeper, that a good skill system can be mixed with progression in other ways.
For example, imagine if for example the stats you develop your character with had an actual impact on combat and things you did?
Like an Archer for example.
If you have pumped up his strength, you will be able to use higher draw power bows and be able to "hold" your aim for longer to take a shot with and you won't lose the aim as quickly as someone with lower strength. However the actual "aim" and knowing where to aim/firing is still FULLY player controlled. So it impacts combat based on a character trait but it doesn't take the place of a players input/skill away.
Now imagine another archer, however he's instead focused more on Dex instead of strength, he doesn't use a bow with as much draw strength but instead is focused on being able ready his aim and can reload his bow much quicker., allowing him to get off more shots then someone who who has focused more on strength. HE can't take as long to aim as the player with more strength but it can put more arrows out then the other one.
Things like this can allow players to make meaningful and noticeable impacts, showing their characters skills within the combat, but neither of which take out the player skill from the equation.
I feel each system is good in their own way. I got nothing against gear treadmills and level based RPGs.
But we've had so many of them. Would be nice to get one that is more about your ability as a player and a member of a team, not how much time you've sunk into the game. Just to try something new.
I think that no player levels would be an interesting and bold move for EQN to take & I actually support that idea, TSW tried a level-less system but it did in practice have levels of gear anyway & access to it.
I think the most valuable part of no-levels is that every single area of the game - geographically anyway, becomes accessible & usable, no "dead areas" truly exist as every area can much more easily be revamped with extra interesting things to do. It also feeds into anything that could be termed dynamic content, events GM stuff etc.
So I kinda hope that SoE do try no-levels with EQN, progression will be in there though, in some form.
Well... you kinda missed the point. No matter what the system is, it has to be a good one. I still cannot pre-judge a game by a system I haven't tried. I have played twitch games that are good and twitch games that are bad, so I still can't answer the poll.
And please refrain from acting as if twitch gaming is the kind where 'your skill as a player mattered the most'. I have seen master twitch teens who crumble in the face of an EQ raid.
Yes, it takes some* knowledge/skill to play EQ. But the point is that in level/gear/ability point progression system based games, no matter how good you are, you're only as good as your "character's power". Take the greatest EQ player that ever lived, and place him up against a lvl undead mob 50 (solo mob) on a lvl 5 character. He will never* win the fight. Ever. He won't even be allowed to do any damage to the mob.
Likewise, take the greatest Counter Strike player on the planet, and drop him into PS2 with all the starter weapons and such. He will still be a great asset to the team and kill many, many people. This is the difference between a level based game and a "skill" based game.
The difference between real skill and "your character's power" creating the illusion of skill.
Yes, many people like games where you are using your own sweat, patience and determination to develop a hero of epic proportions over a long period of time - to create a powerful character over time, to build their powers and skills - some sort of fantasy hero which is not confined to my mere mortal limitations. My character who I developed the way I wanted who is not limited to my earthly and aging hand/eye coordination, but rather something beyond what I can do as a simple real world human. It takes a person with the skill to persevere. It takes a person who has planning skills, analytic skills, logistical skills, social skills, teamwork skills, math skills, etc.
Some think that pushing buttons in the correct order faster than others = real skill. I call it a well-trained pavlovian conditioning. It can be taught to monkeys and dogs and assembly line factory workers too.
Does twitch gaming require skill? Yes. Hand-eye coordination which peaks between the age of 16 and 30.
Come back to me at age 42 and tell me again how those 17 year olds have real skill and you don't.
Comments
Yes, it takes some* knowledge/skill to play EQ. But the point is that in level/gear/ability point progression system based games, no matter how good you are, you're only as good as your "character's power". Take the greatest EQ player that ever lived, and place him up against a lvl undead mob 50 (solo mob) on a lvl 5 character. He will never* win the fight. Ever. He won't even be allowed to do any damage to the mob.
Likewise, take the greatest Counter Strike player on the planet, and drop him into PS2 with all the starter weapons and such. He will still be a great asset to the team and kill many, many people. This is the difference between a level based game and a "skill" based game.
The difference between real skill and "your character's power" creating the illusion of skill.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
For me personally, when it comes to mmorpgs.
I prefer it to be more focused on Player skill>Character skill>gear.
Most mmo's it's
character skill>gear>player skill.
A game like Planetside 2 is an example of what some people are talking about. Where while you do "gain" power and things, it's more of a horizonital progression vs vertical. A new player can still (with player skill) be deadly, and kill someone who's played longer and has better gear/more unlocks.
Though I think it can be taken deeper, that a good skill system can be mixed with progression in other ways.
For example, imagine if for example the stats you develop your character with had an actual impact on combat and things you did?
Like an Archer for example.
If you have pumped up his strength, you will be able to use higher draw power bows and be able to "hold" your aim for longer to take a shot with and you won't lose the aim as quickly as someone with lower strength. However the actual "aim" and knowing where to aim/firing is still FULLY player controlled. So it impacts combat based on a character trait but it doesn't take the place of a players input/skill away.
Now imagine another archer, however he's instead focused more on Dex instead of strength, he doesn't use a bow with as much draw strength but instead is focused on being able ready his aim and can reload his bow much quicker., allowing him to get off more shots then someone who who has focused more on strength. HE can't take as long to aim as the player with more strength but it can put more arrows out then the other one.
Things like this can allow players to make meaningful and noticeable impacts, showing their characters skills within the combat, but neither of which take out the player skill from the equation.
I feel each system is good in their own way. I got nothing against gear treadmills and level based RPGs.
But we've had so many of them. Would be nice to get one that is more about your ability as a player and a member of a team, not how much time you've sunk into the game. Just to try something new.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
I think that no player levels would be an interesting and bold move for EQN to take & I actually support that idea, TSW tried a level-less system but it did in practice have levels of gear anyway & access to it.
I think the most valuable part of no-levels is that every single area of the game - geographically anyway, becomes accessible & usable, no "dead areas" truly exist as every area can much more easily be revamped with extra interesting things to do. It also feeds into anything that could be termed dynamic content, events GM stuff etc.
So I kinda hope that SoE do try no-levels with EQN, progression will be in there though, in some form.
Yes, many people like games where you are using your own sweat, patience and determination to develop a hero of epic proportions over a long period of time - to create a powerful character over time, to build their powers and skills - some sort of fantasy hero which is not confined to my mere mortal limitations. My character who I developed the way I wanted who is not limited to my earthly and aging hand/eye coordination, but rather something beyond what I can do as a simple real world human. It takes a person with the skill to persevere. It takes a person who has planning skills, analytic skills, logistical skills, social skills, teamwork skills, math skills, etc.
Some think that pushing buttons in the correct order faster than others = real skill. I call it a well-trained pavlovian conditioning. It can be taught to monkeys and dogs and assembly line factory workers too.
Does twitch gaming require skill? Yes. Hand-eye coordination which peaks between the age of 16 and 30.
Come back to me at age 42 and tell me again how those 17 year olds have real skill and you don't.