One of the fundamental features of mmorpg's is the series of short-term goal completions (addiction?).
One of the fundamental features that mmorpg's tend to lack is roleplay (in the classic, PnP sense of the word).
Personally, I think modern gamers are really selling their titles short, in terms of what they could be. A single title, that entertains you (virtually) forever, because it's a backdrop to a basic activity that can be eternally entertaining--roleplay, other people. In roleplaying games (as opposed to MMORPG titles), you won't be "burning through it in two weeks", ever.
But it is what it is. The majority of the modern gamers are just more comfortable with sprites.
Originally posted by rojo6934 no. I dont want less features in my mmorpg. I want more. Taking features out (or leaving good features out in exchange of other stuff) only affects the game negatively and im not wasting money or time on empty virtual worlds. EDIT: im ok not having levels, but character progression is not limited to leveling an exp bar and going up a number. There wouldn't be less features actually. You just wouldn't need to level up first or otherwise improve character-skills.
Look at Skyrim for example and let's say you're given 60 skill-perks at charcter-creation to build your character the way you want. This wouldn't take anything away from the game imho.
I play an RPG to watch and help my character grow and possibly change, aka Character Building. Without skill improvement or character level, what is there? I quit my Skyrim characters for 2 reasons: 1) They finished the main quest. 2) They maxed out their main skills. Some of these never finished the main quest.
Playing Skyrim with all my skill points up front would not be very fun for me.
How long could you play a game without your character improving?
Originally posted by Yalexy Why would you need to get your character stronger over time? It has nothing to do with roleplaying actually.
There's tons of games without character-progression, like Battlefield for example and they still have a campaign to play through and you can only somewhat tweak your equipment.
Leveling up, be it character-level or skills allways leads to the fact, that there'll be content you can't access right away, requiring you to grind your way up first, and that's exactly the thing I hate the most.
I played EvE Online for 7 years, because you could take part in the universe right away, even if you just started playing the game. And yes, even in a Rifter you were a valuable asset, if you listened to the veterans and did what they wanted you to do. No better memories really than flying in a fleet a week after joining EvE, flying a Slacher equipped with nothing but a MWD and a warp-disruptor
Roleplaying has everything to do with character growth, not a stagnant, timeless game for me.
I have not played Battlefield, but can you not improve your character via equipment? Or are they stagnant, never improving dolls?
Being able to go anywhere one wishes at any time is desirable, and many games allow for this. A player is just not usually able to survive in some areas. What would the opponents be? All the same animals/monsters? Or would rats and spiders be as tough as bears and dragons? You talk about grinding. What is going anywhere, fighting anything that is basically the same toughness as you are NOT grinding? Why are you going places?
In real life, I hope you get better at what you do as you keep doing it. Practice improves skills. Time moves on and does not stand still. Having no character advancement makes it feel like time is not moving forward to me.
[EDIT] Reading some more replies, it appears that you equate RP with no character improvement. This is false. Can you NOT roleplay in a game with character advancement? I have no troubles doing so.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
EVE is a game with no character progression and seems like it works for many.
The question isn't whether you would play an MMORPG with no chasracter progression, question is what you would replace character progression with?
At the end of the day, people play MMOs for fun and character progression is just a one of many ways to provide fun.
After reading your response I realized that people are interchanging the term character progression (which I view EVE's 28 years of skill training representing) with leveling, and the character power gains associated with it.
I'll agree EVE has none of that, but I still feel the skill training represents character progression because although a person can pilot a Rifter after 3 days, a pilot with 3 months of training in the core pilot skills will be stronger than the 3 day pilot, before player skill and luck plays into it.
But I think in the OP's example he might favor a new player having a pool of skill points to spend at the start and you could pick and chose what skills to slot into your character. This would be followed by a limited gain in skill points (20%) that longer played characters could access, but these wouldn't necessarily make any player stronger, just able to fly perhaps a slightly wider variety of ships.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran After reading your response I realized that people are interchanging the term character progression (which I view EVE's 28 years of skill training representing) with leveling, and the character power gains associated with it.I'll agree EVE has none of that, but I still feel the skill training represents character progression because although a person can pilot a Rifter after 3 days, a pilot with 3 months of training in the core pilot skills will be stronger than the 3 day pilot, before player skill and luck plays into it.But I think in the OP's example he might favor a new player having a pool of skill points to spend at the start and you could pick and chose what skills to slot into your character. This would be followed by a limited gain in skill points (20%) that longer played characters could access, but these wouldn't necessarily make any player stronger, just able to fly perhaps a slightly wider variety of ships.
You merely got the point but you need to think it more further, deeper as you seem to be still sort of stuck in concept of level-power-progression.
Character training in EVE has a different role tho - it creates a diversity, provides options and opportunities. It provides enoromous variability and complexity since each character and their actions are tied up with player interaction and subsequently game economy.
You could start and grant every existing character max skill points but the game would lose a (under)layer of individuality that character training provides.
You know I kind of thought no real sense progression wouldn't be so bad............. then I played Defiance. Boy was I wrong....... Gotta love getting orange tier weapons that are no stronger than the most basic, minus a couple ultra miniscule bonuses that are like nothing. +0.5% damage increase on the last bullet shot out of your clip and stuff like that. Perks for your character weren't much different either. Yeah, a couple weeks of that and I will never play a "horizontal progression" game again.
You merely got the point but you need to think it more further, deeper as you seem to be still sort of stuck in concept of level-power-progression.
Character training in EVE has a different role tho - it creates a diversity, provides options and opportunities. It provides enoromous variability and complexity since each character and their actions are tied up with player interaction and subsequently game economy.
You could start and grant every existing character max skill points but the game would lose a (under)layer of individuality that character training provides.
When you train skills, you grow stronger. That's progression.
That's without mentioning the financial progression the game has (and there's probably progression involved in territorial conquest too, but I'm unfamiliar with the benefits people can establish by constructing/upgrading stations.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Axehilt When you train skills, you grow stronger.
You don't. You just have more skill points. Whether you are "stronger"(does not really make much sense anyway) depends on what you do with your skill points, not what you have accumulated.
You do not progress when you train your skills, skill points are just a resource or asset if you wish.
You don't. You just have more skill points. Whether you are "stronger"(does not really make much sense anyway) depends on what you do with your skill points, not what you have accumulated.
You do not progress when you train your skills, skill points are just a resource or asset if you wish.
Progression is defined by positive change, skillpoints are most definitely positive change.
If you mine better, you got stronger. If you shoot better, you got stronger. If you can do more stuff, you got stronger. Let's not jumble things up here and get lost in some strange abstraction, skill points are definitely a form of progression in EVE.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Originally posted by NagelRitter Progression is defined by positive change, skillpoints are most definitely positive change.If you mine better, you got stronger. If you shoot better, you got stronger. If you can do more stuff, you got stronger. Let's not jumble things up here and get lost in some strange abstraction, skill points are definitely a form of progression in EVE.
Yes, in mathematics progression is defined as succesion of quantities but games are not math discipline, your point is moot.
After the story, there was little or no reason to play Defiance. It had no real character progression, so I stopped playing. What else could a MMO offer if it didn't have character progression?
For those not familiar with Defiance, everything scales to your level. This isn't a bad thing by itself, but when combined with the fact that you don't gain noticeable character strength, leveling up feels pointless. Playing at the lowest level feels almost exactly the same as playing at the highest level.
You don't. You just have more skill points. Whether you are "stronger"(does not really make much sense anyway) depends on what you do with your skill points, not what you have accumulated.
You do not progress when you train your skills, skill points are just a resource or asset if you wish.
Increasing it makes you stronger if you use drones.
That's progression.
Skill points might also be considered an asset, but that's no different than any other game's progression being an asset (and EVE's skills are similarly non-transferrable assets.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
When I say no character-progression, then I'm including skillpoints aswell.
The only progression in the game would come in a variation of items that range from 0 to +20% in power and a whole lot of different skins for the items, so that no player looks the same as the other.
Skill-progression in EvE isn't really needed imho, as the real progression in EvE comes from other aspects like conquering more and more territory, controlling more and more ressources, controlling the market etc.
What I'm talking about is, that you would have some skilltrees and a given amount of skillpoints you can then distribute to build the character you want in the beginning. After that you can never again distribute other skillpoints.
In Skyrim for example you can use the console to achieve that and get your character to LvL 60 and then use a tool like Uncapper to freeze skill-gain and therefore level-advancement. You basically play the game as a LvL 60 battlemage, thief, etc right from the beginning up until there's no more content left to do, which takes ages, if you do every single quest there is in the game.
Now, in a MMORPG there's usually multiple character-slots per account, so you're not stuck with that single character, but you can make a warrior, a crafter and an explorer and switch between the characters, depending on what you want to do.
Character-progression would only come in the form of achievements and it would be much more relevant (staying with EvE) what other people think of you and how much influence you have in the game, then what level and what gear you have.
Originally posted by Axehilt This is an EVE skill: Drone Durability.Increasing it makes you stronger if you use drones.That's progression.Skill points might also be considered an asset, but that's no different than any other game's progression being an asset (and EVE's skills are similarly non-transferrable assets.)
You are arguing moot point, as I pointed out above...
When I think of an mmo without character progression, it is one that doesn't have any kind of present in game story. It might have a background story leading up to this new world, but not a story that drives the entire mmo in a single direction. That is so linear and boring. I want something with freedom, I don't want a game like GW2 or SWTOR where it makes you feel like you are making choices and impacting your own character when in actuality everyone ends up in the same place.
I want a game that is more influenced by reality than fantasy, a game where you can do what you want, when you want to. I want an mmo that withholds the charisma of a single player rpg, and plants it in an mmo. I have honestly never seen a game that gives you an opportunity like that, where you can actually stand out from the masses. I want to be able to build something epic, or fight and slay a dragon or monster that rarely makes an appearance in the game world. I want to be able to make my own content that other players can add to their gameplay experience.
The world we live in right now is so beautiful, inspires curiosity, and is ever changing. Why not draw from that and make a game out of it. Minecraft is the only game that has come close to giving me that experience.
Most importantly I want a game where I can make it what I want it to be, and not the game itself make me what it wants me to be. The players should be the ones shaping the game world, not the developers.
One last thought I've had recently. Are the games we currently call mmorpg's really rpg's at all or are we playing games with a fixed start and end where the roles are already predetermined before the game even launches.
Increasing it makes you stronger if you use drones.
That's progression.
Skill points might also be considered an asset, but that's no different than any other game's progression being an asset (and EVE's skills are similarly non-transferrable assets.)
You are arguing moot point, as I pointed out above...
You appear to be arguing a point that is out of step with the common accepted view of the term progression.
So you are correct, there is little to discuss at this point.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No. To me progression systems are what MMORPGs are all about. Besides, you can get to level cap in GW2 and have exactly what you describe. No reason to log in, rofl. Kidding, about the reason to log in I mean, the rest is true. There is no real progression in GW2 endgame aside from skins and small incremental gear upgrades. Perfect for you OP.
My kind of game would be the one that makes progression systems and doesn't stop, ever. Like FFXI sort of does, so...much...content, I loves it!!!!
Originally posted by Kyleran You appear to be arguing a point that is out of step with the common accepted view of the term progression.
Common or not, it is put in meaningless context. Only measure of progression in regards to MMO is a progression towards a goal or designed achievement, not the mathematical meaning.
Originally posted by Quizzical I already have: Puzzle Pirates.
This +1
Played it back in 2005 as one of the first free 2 play titles. Was a really good game and I am glad to see it is still going after all these years. It even ran on my old Linux computer. Skelly raids and crafting were a lot of fun. YPP had player controlled housing, shops, and island colonization. It had it all as far as a sandbox goes even 150 man raids. Someday they should make a Puzzle Pirates 2 or at least make it playable on Smartphones.
I'm a big fan of only having horizontal progression. Maybe you read my 10 good reasons why MMOs do not need vertical progression. Having the character advance not in power but only in variety already gives you the option to go everywhere and do everything right from the start. Without vertical progression new character performs equal to everyone else, he will only be a bit generic.
To have no progression at all seems like a fairly radical approach to me and it does not have a real tradeoff. It can see how it would be tempting to build every character you want right from the start, but it removes everything there is to work for and it makes the character completely static once you started playing. It sounds like no good idea to me to have a wizard that cant even learn a single new spell.
Character progression can be beneficial for roleplaying by the way if you are doing a longer story arch. If Luke Skywalker never acquired light saber skills the story would have ended quite differently. I played Shadowrun too for quite some time. And I remember it as the game that had the most minmaxing and fiddling around of all the games I played. And there was a lot of character progression. You could start as an ordinary guy and become something like the Terminator. Maybe you played it differently.
Comments
EVE is a game with no character progression and seems like it works for many.
The question isn't whether you would play an MMORPG with no chasracter progression, question is what you would replace character progression with?
At the end of the day, people play MMOs for fun and character progression is just a one of many ways to provide fun.
One of the fundamental features of mmorpg's is the series of short-term goal completions (addiction?).
One of the fundamental features that mmorpg's tend to lack is roleplay (in the classic, PnP sense of the word).
Personally, I think modern gamers are really selling their titles short, in terms of what they could be. A single title, that entertains you (virtually) forever, because it's a backdrop to a basic activity that can be eternally entertaining--roleplay, other people. In roleplaying games (as opposed to MMORPG titles), you won't be "burning through it in two weeks", ever.
But it is what it is. The majority of the modern gamers are just more comfortable with sprites.
I voted No.
Roleplaying has everything to do with character growth, not a stagnant, timeless game for me.I have not played Battlefield, but can you not improve your character via equipment? Or are they stagnant, never improving dolls?
Being able to go anywhere one wishes at any time is desirable, and many games allow for this. A player is just not usually able to survive in some areas. What would the opponents be? All the same animals/monsters? Or would rats and spiders be as tough as bears and dragons? You talk about grinding. What is going anywhere, fighting anything that is basically the same toughness as you are NOT grinding? Why are you going places?
In real life, I hope you get better at what you do as you keep doing it. Practice improves skills. Time moves on and does not stand still. Having no character advancement makes it feel like time is not moving forward to me.
[EDIT]
Reading some more replies, it appears that you equate RP with no character improvement. This is false. Can you NOT roleplay in a game with character advancement? I have no troubles doing so.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
After reading your response I realized that people are interchanging the term character progression (which I view EVE's 28 years of skill training representing) with leveling, and the character power gains associated with it.
I'll agree EVE has none of that, but I still feel the skill training represents character progression because although a person can pilot a Rifter after 3 days, a pilot with 3 months of training in the core pilot skills will be stronger than the 3 day pilot, before player skill and luck plays into it.
But I think in the OP's example he might favor a new player having a pool of skill points to spend at the start and you could pick and chose what skills to slot into your character. This would be followed by a limited gain in skill points (20%) that longer played characters could access, but these wouldn't necessarily make any player stronger, just able to fly perhaps a slightly wider variety of ships.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You merely got the point but you need to think it more further, deeper as you seem to be still sort of stuck in concept of level-power-progression.
Character training in EVE has a different role tho - it creates a diversity, provides options and opportunities. It provides enoromous variability and complexity since each character and their actions are tied up with player interaction and subsequently game economy.
You could start and grant every existing character max skill points but the game would lose a (under)layer of individuality that character training provides.
I self identify as a monkey.
When you train skills, you grow stronger. That's progression.
That's without mentioning the financial progression the game has (and there's probably progression involved in territorial conquest too, but I'm unfamiliar with the benefits people can establish by constructing/upgrading stations.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You don't. You just have more skill points. Whether you are "stronger"(does not really make much sense anyway) depends on what you do with your skill points, not what you have accumulated.
You do not progress when you train your skills, skill points are just a resource or asset if you wish.
Progression is defined by positive change, skillpoints are most definitely positive change.
If you mine better, you got stronger. If you shoot better, you got stronger. If you can do more stuff, you got stronger. Let's not jumble things up here and get lost in some strange abstraction, skill points are definitely a form of progression in EVE.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Yes, in mathematics progression is defined as succesion of quantities but games are not math discipline, your point is moot.
After the story, there was little or no reason to play Defiance. It had no real character progression, so I stopped playing. What else could a MMO offer if it didn't have character progression?
For those not familiar with Defiance, everything scales to your level. This isn't a bad thing by itself, but when combined with the fact that you don't gain noticeable character strength, leveling up feels pointless. Playing at the lowest level feels almost exactly the same as playing at the highest level.
This is an EVE skill: Drone Durability.
Increasing it makes you stronger if you use drones.
That's progression.
Skill points might also be considered an asset, but that's no different than any other game's progression being an asset (and EVE's skills are similarly non-transferrable assets.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
To clarify what I mean...
When I say no character-progression, then I'm including skillpoints aswell.
The only progression in the game would come in a variation of items that range from 0 to +20% in power and a whole lot of different skins for the items, so that no player looks the same as the other.
Skill-progression in EvE isn't really needed imho, as the real progression in EvE comes from other aspects like conquering more and more territory, controlling more and more ressources, controlling the market etc.
What I'm talking about is, that you would have some skilltrees and a given amount of skillpoints you can then distribute to build the character you want in the beginning. After that you can never again distribute other skillpoints.
In Skyrim for example you can use the console to achieve that and get your character to LvL 60 and then use a tool like Uncapper to freeze skill-gain and therefore level-advancement. You basically play the game as a LvL 60 battlemage, thief, etc right from the beginning up until there's no more content left to do, which takes ages, if you do every single quest there is in the game.
Now, in a MMORPG there's usually multiple character-slots per account, so you're not stuck with that single character, but you can make a warrior, a crafter and an explorer and switch between the characters, depending on what you want to do.
Character-progression would only come in the form of achievements and it would be much more relevant (staying with EvE) what other people think of you and how much influence you have in the game, then what level and what gear you have.
You are arguing moot point, as I pointed out above...
When I think of an mmo without character progression, it is one that doesn't have any kind of present in game story. It might have a background story leading up to this new world, but not a story that drives the entire mmo in a single direction. That is so linear and boring. I want something with freedom, I don't want a game like GW2 or SWTOR where it makes you feel like you are making choices and impacting your own character when in actuality everyone ends up in the same place.
I want a game that is more influenced by reality than fantasy, a game where you can do what you want, when you want to. I want an mmo that withholds the charisma of a single player rpg, and plants it in an mmo. I have honestly never seen a game that gives you an opportunity like that, where you can actually stand out from the masses. I want to be able to build something epic, or fight and slay a dragon or monster that rarely makes an appearance in the game world. I want to be able to make my own content that other players can add to their gameplay experience.
The world we live in right now is so beautiful, inspires curiosity, and is ever changing. Why not draw from that and make a game out of it. Minecraft is the only game that has come close to giving me that experience.
Most importantly I want a game where I can make it what I want it to be, and not the game itself make me what it wants me to be. The players should be the ones shaping the game world, not the developers.
One last thought I've had recently. Are the games we currently call mmorpg's really rpg's at all or are we playing games with a fixed start and end where the roles are already predetermined before the game even launches.
You appear to be arguing a point that is out of step with the common accepted view of the term progression.
So you are correct, there is little to discuss at this point.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No. To me progression systems are what MMORPGs are all about. Besides, you can get to level cap in GW2 and have exactly what you describe. No reason to log in, rofl. Kidding, about the reason to log in I mean, the rest is true. There is no real progression in GW2 endgame aside from skins and small incremental gear upgrades. Perfect for you OP.
My kind of game would be the one that makes progression systems and doesn't stop, ever. Like FFXI sort of does, so...much...content, I loves it!!!!
Common or not, it is put in meaningless context. Only measure of progression in regards to MMO is a progression towards a goal or designed achievement, not the mathematical meaning.
Since the topic is whether EVE has character progression, the point is about as far from "moot" as possible.
EVE skills are a metagame feature where you grow stronger over time, and that is character progression.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This +1
Played it back in 2005 as one of the first free 2 play titles. Was a really good game and I am glad to see it is still going after all these years. It even ran on my old Linux computer. Skelly raids and crafting were a lot of fun. YPP had player controlled housing, shops, and island colonization. It had it all as far as a sandbox goes even 150 man raids. Someday they should make a Puzzle Pirates 2 or at least make it playable on Smartphones.
Having the character advance not in power but only in variety already gives you the option to go everywhere and do everything right from the start. Without vertical progression new character performs equal to everyone else, he will only be a bit generic.
To have no progression at all seems like a fairly radical approach to me and it does not have a real tradeoff. It can see how it would be tempting to build every character you want right from the start, but it removes everything there is to work for and it makes the character completely static once you started playing. It sounds like no good idea to me to have a wizard that cant even learn a single new spell.
Character progression can be beneficial for roleplaying by the way if you are doing a longer story arch. If Luke Skywalker never acquired light saber skills the story would have ended quite differently.
I played Shadowrun too for quite some time. And I remember it as the game that had the most minmaxing and fiddling around of all the games I played. And there was a lot of character progression. You could start as an ordinary guy and become something like the Terminator. Maybe you played it differently.