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EQN cash shop - If things other than vanity items offered, I'll play, but not seriously.
Canan
Member UncommonPosts: 95
Title says it all. I can never seriously be immersed in a game that offers resources, items or experience rewards to someone who pays more than I. What happened to games like Ultima Online? If you saw a player owned castle in UO it was understood that player worked his tail off to get it and there was a certain feeling of admiration and jealousy. Pay to win makes a game feel soulless and easily attainable. It belittles and disintegrates player competition and pride.
So, yes, I will stay play but only until a game that requires true effort and player cooperation comes along. AND I will not make a single purchase to the cash shop unless only vanity items are offered.
What about you? Does a cash shop that offers game changing items diminish your fun factor?
Comments
I agree with you, this is why i would to play in subscription only server without a cash shop.
Howether i know that this kind of server will probably not implemented, so i hope that, at least, cash shop will sell only vanity items.
If EQN wil be a P2W game i will simply not play it.
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
I expect experience potions to be offered
- whether thats a deal breaker is up to you
EQ2 fan sites
No matter what someone will call it P2W because they cant afford the items offered in the store that they want.
I highly doubt most people dislike cash shops because "they can't afford it". It's more of a "If it isn't earned in game then it doesn't belong in game" mentality as to why people think cash shops are bad.
Based on SOE's history - they've added experience potions, fast mounts, larger bags, and tried to add power-ups to PS2, you can bet there is going to be some P2W stuff in the item shop, and the item shop is going to be shoved in your face every time you log in.
They can't help themselves. They've shown no history of being able to control themselves, so there's basically no evidence that supports they will be able to control themselves now, just because they have a new game.
All I am hoping is that the imbalance issues are not too glaring, and that the OOH BUY ME NOW, pop-ups aren't too prevalent.
I trust them to make a good game, and I'm excited about it, but based on history and applying a little logic, you can see that the bean counters are making these decisions, not the game makers.
You will play EQN and you will like it. Don't pretend like you won't.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
None of the things you listed are P2W in the slightest.
The fact that there's a UI button to buy cash shop items is hardly "in your face".
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
I think that if items must be offered in the cash shop it should work like this:
Items can be bought, but these are just items with decent stats, lets say good dmg to delay ratio, maybe some basic stats at higher levels. These items are good enough to make you able to hold your ground in pvp, or everything but the hardest pve
Items that CANNOT be bought are items with clickies, procs, effects ect. examples of things that would need to be earned are good items such as fungi tunics, moss covered twigs, fbss, any weapon or item with a proc or clicky.
Anyways thats just me.
i wont play the game if there will be strong items that will create an unfair advantage betwin players ..and yeah exp pots or a fast mount can be game breaking , the one that grow much slower and play the game normaly will have a disadvantage of the one that buy exp pots and get max lvl and begin to own
probably i wont play the game if we will se more taht cosmetic items on cash shop ,and i can bet sony will put ahrdcore items in the cash shop
No actually all of the thing he mentioned are 100% P2W. Winning in an MMO is purely player crafting and player accomplishments. There is no "You Won!" end game. It is a real virtual world that is continuous, with achievements throughout the lifespan of your character.
Buying these achievements is pay to win. Let's look at all his examples that you claim are not pay to win.
hypothetical products in cash shop:
Large backpack - Player 1 could have crafted and sold this item. He would have made in game money, experience and possibly friends (depending on if there is an auction house). But nope, just throw all that in the trash. Player 2 just bought a backpack in the cash shop. Player 1 "lost" at this aspect of the game.
Experience potions - Let's take a PVP scenario. Player 1 buys an XP potion in the cash shop. He levels faster, buys more potions, keeps leveling. More levels = stronger stats and access to more powerful spells/abilities. Player 1 goes into a battleground and kills Player 2 who is a lower level but spent just as much time trying to level but didn't purchase tons of xp potions. Player 1 just payed to win. A flat rate subscription could have avoided this issue. Also, take away the cash shop and have high level PLAYERS make XP potions. That is not only fair, but it adds to the gameplay. Cash shops take away from gameplay.
Fast mounts - Mounts could be caught, trained and sold by players. Or they could be rare high level achievements that add to the gameplay experience. Or Player 1 could just buy one. Player 2 earned one but who cares right? Nothing is special at that point. Your achievements directly affect the social aspect of the game. (this is a massive multi player game, so don't throw the "who cares what other people think" statement at me. play offline games if that is your attitude.)
ANYTHING sold in a cash shop takes away from the game, the players, the crafting, the immersion, you name it.
Can you imagine if you had a character on Amazon and you bought items and weapons to dress it up? Have you ever played Playstation Home? It is a horrible experience and sadly more MMO's are becoming like that.
This topic again?
Well, same topic gets the same answer.
I don't care about P2W. I care about real money to game money conversion. In short. Gold selling. In a game with any emphasis on player economy or heavy crafting systems. This is a deathblow.
You have a warped and very incorrect idea of what P2W means.
Let me elaborate.
1. If the game is designed where there is FFA pvp and levels play a huge (or decent) factor in who wins in a fight. Exp pots are P2W and the game has also designed PVP poorly. However, if this is not the case, then Exp pots are not P2W. For example, PS2 is a skill based game. A lvl 50 can be killed, easily, by a level one with good aim. Therefor, in a game like PS2, exp boosters are not P2W. So it depends on the context of the game. SOE does not have a history of P2W, and won't be providing PVP advantages to people who pay.
2. Your bag example is laughable. Crafters will play a large role in the game and will not be trivialized, as per Dave Georgeson. The cash shop is absolutely not going to have a negative effect on EQN crafters.
3. Obviously if a mount requires an epic and difficult quest to obtain, then it shouldn't be on the cash shop. EQN will not be doing this anyway, based on their past history with how they handle the cash shop.
F2P and micro transactions aren't going anywhere. If you're not going to be happy simply because there's a cash shop in the game, I suspect you're not going to be happy with any future MMORPG titles. Might want to get a new hobby.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
Nope. Sorry but anything per "Dave Georgeson" doesn't mean cash shops won't take away from players/crafters. A sub is the only way to create a truely immersive. game. The only way to make a cash shop immersive and fair would be to have the players make/sell EVERYTHING in the cash shop and SOE gets a cut once its for sale. Also, the cash shop would have to be some sort of Bazaar, not just a window on your screen. Even then, the use of real world money in an MMO is laughable.
This game won't be about P2W or not. The issue will be about the game economy and the effect the infusion of real cash will have on it.
In a sandbox type of game the best items are player crafted or are tradeable. Few items if any should be character bound, and crafting should be HUGE. The entire economy in a sandbox should be player driven. But it won't be. It will be cash shop driven. In the 1st week those who spend the most money in the shop and convert to currency will dominate this game from day 1.
Have fun!
You can have both. Just because a crafter can't make everything doesn't mean that the cash shop is hurting them. It depends on how they do it. If a cash shop completely replaces crafters, then it would terrible. But if there are 5-10 items that would normally be "crafted" in the cash shop, but crafters can make hundreds or thousands of different, unique items, then it doesn't hurt them one bit.
I also like how you didn't bother to acknowledge my other points. Well, at least that's some progress on your part. You can at least understand that you're wrong and accept it internally. Don't worry. You keep talking to me and I'll sort you out right.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
Well you're going to be exhausted because there are a lot of us. Just look at the thread you're posting in. There are enough anti-cash shop players to fill up a subscription only server.
Buying experience potions are strictly P2W in any scenario. If you feel that is an opinion, good for you. But quite honestly I'm not alone and eventually a game (or server) will come out that caters to our crowd.
Cash shops also break immersion. The cash shop makes no sense in the virtual world. The cash shop is a window on your screen that takes real world money and makes things happen in game. That is retarded. That isn't even a gaming experience. It makes no sense in the roleplaying setting.This is a strong opinion felt by many. Once a less greedy company comes up with a server or game that caters to immersion, you will see it become very popular amongst hardcore players. Maybe EQN will do it, maybe not. But the desire for it will still be there until a game offers it.
Someone else's level has nothing to do with you or your enjoyment. Unless your enjoyment is based solely on Powerleveling and getting a "server first" to cap, or being the first person to loot an item. If that is where you derive your happiness, then I would say the problem with MMORPGs are you. I surely hope you're not one of those.
Microtransactions aren't going anywhere. They're pretty much the future for the gaming industry in general. Especially for online games where putting a body in the world is extremely valuable, even if they don't pay.
If you can't feel "immersed" in a game because there's a UI button you can press to access a cash shop, then you got some serious problems to contend with on an individual level.
And no, the numbers don't lie. "P2P hardcores", like myself, and maybe you, are a drastic minority. Calling that playerbase niche is even stretch. It's a tiny fraction of the gaming community, sadly, but a reality non-the-less.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
We are larger than you think.
Take a look at the FF14 threads. There are so many people willing to buy this game just on the basis that it has no cash shop. I'm one of them. At this point, the game doesn't even have to be the best game ever. It only needs to be decent and I'm all in. Who do I throw my money at? I've been in the beta and I love what I see so far. So, even if the game doesn't ever get any better, I'll be happy and I'll have my new "home" for as long as that game remains P2P. More and more people are beginning to see through the facade of a "Non-P2W" cash shop and realizing that it's not about what they sell, it's the fact they exist. They ruin the games and we are tired of seeing them.
Having to put in your credit card number to continue playing for another month also makes no sense in the roleplaying setting. You just have to accept that paying for the game and playing the game are separate activities.
I would much rather had an old-school sub model myself, but in terms of roleplay, there is very little difference in going to a RL store and paying $50 for the next expansion which your character is "is magically blocked from accessing otherwise" versus clicking on an in-game button to pay $50 for the same magic barrier to drop. The latter is just easier.
So long as I am paying for content and "access to play" and not for "gameplay achievements", I've resigned myself to live with the cash shop model. Is it my ideal model? No. But it's where the industry is at and if it's the only way to get new and better MMORPG's to be made, I'll have to suck it up.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
The only SOE game who's cash shop I have a problem with is Dragon Prophet and that's not really a SOE game more like a partner publisher. I know some people might disagree but SOE's other games like EQ2 and PS2 just don't bother me at all because once you sub you can 100% ignore the cash shop to no personal determent at all.
Yea I know EQ2 pretty much cuts the game off at higher levels to free players due to spell and gear restrictions and you really either have to spend money in the cash shop or sub to do anything after a certain point but is that really a bad system? It's certainly not P2W in my book. More like a extended free trial of the lower level parts of the game.
Everyone has to spend some money at higher levels it's just that SOE gives you the option of either spending that money piece meal as you go or once a month in blocks. I have seen much worse in games of late than what SOE has done with EQ2 or PS2.
Seriously Op This was worth writing a thread? You'll play but not seriously play it? Gosh that'll sure teach them.
XP pots, Fast Mounts, larger bags, and the like are definitely NOT P2W, and I don't understand the thought process that says it is. Those items are of little consequence, yeah, they may make a levels XP requirement 10% less, or the run to the next city 10% quicker, but that is not P2W.
P2W seems pretty clear to me. P2W, to me, means that you can buy, end-game or equivalent gear, or even worse, gear better than what can be aquired in the game through actually playing it. Or, if they sell in-game currency in the store, that too is P2W. I might even go so far as to say that being able to purchase slots for bags, or unlocking an extra ability slot or some such, even those can be P2W imo.
Cosmetic items, mounts of any speed, XP pots, larger bags, appearance armor, unique skins for characters (faces, body types, etc.), even the gear-gating they use in EQ2....none of that is P2W, that's all cosmetic crap. I mean, I suppose it can be argued that an XP pot is P2W b/c it enables someone to level up faster, true, it does do that, but it does NOT give that person any real advantage over you as a direct result of that potion. They were going to level anyway, how does it affect you that they leveled up faster? And don't say the stat bump they get from the level gives them an advantage, b/c it's so fleeting and the chance that you are standing there while they happen to gain a level, turn around and kill you w/ said stat boost, b/c that's silly
. The closest to P2W is the gear-gating, and even that I don't feel is P2W. Is it lame? Yes. But you can't pay for the gear itself, basically you're paying for access to the end-game, which I don't find unreasonable at all. You can have a grand ole time in the game, but if you want to get serious, you gotta pay to experience that content.
To me, P2W means you can obtain items through a storefront that you would otherwise have to grind or raid for, and said items are of such high-quality that they give a definite advantage over someone not geared as well.
Of course, this is all symantics we're arguing here. Pay 2 Win has no accepted-by-the-public definition as of yet, so we can argue like this til we're blue in the face and no one is going to get anywhere. But, going from what I have personally experienced, especially in the EQ games, and Planetside 2, SoE actually goes out of there way to avoid selling anything that can be construed as P2W. Smed may be MANY things, but he is a shrewd business man first, and he knows EQNext is a game targeted at a "Western" audience that has not, and doesn't seem willing to ever, accept a P2W game. SoE knows their audience, and wouldn't go as far to P2W, and if they did, it would be on non-transfer enabled segregated servers where it has no impact on the rest of the community.