It's about time SOE woke up and saw the market that was available to them. You idiots who think this is a bad thing will have a tough time finding a game that hasnt taken this stance in 6 months when they see soe making a bundle off it. Business is business take your whining to WoW and stfu please.
BTW SOE never inforced the no sale approach. IGE and Yantis have been doing this for years.. have they ruined your games? I'd answer apparently not since you're still playing. Get over it you holier than thou old codgers who think theres something morally upstanding in the anti sales camp. SOE has seen that it doesnt hurt the game and they deserve a piece of the pie they helped to create. GOOD FOR THEM! It made me come back to EQ2..
Go ahead and flame me.. whatever you say you're wrong because SOE says so..
ps.. in general i find SOE's games too simplistic and they tend to cater to carebears but they are 100% correct on the exchange idea. Now if only i could talk CCP into doing this with EVE!
Originally posted by Jodokai Originally posted by jimmyman99 Think about it... if all those farmers go to their EXCHANGE server, then their items are worth NOTHING, because all of them can sell those freely. On regular server they are still worth a lot because not many farmers are risking a ban to ebay stuff. So, where would u go to sell your stuff, on a server whre its legal but its worth 1$, or on a server with a risk but your item will be worth 100$? IMO, this exchange is only effective if it is applied to all servers, which is not a good thing as i stated in my previous posts. Read those if you are curious. Peace out
Not only that but you're only looking at a sellers point of view. If you were a buyer, where would you go? On a server that you have to pay really high prices, or a server where it's a dollar? If farmers can't sell what they have, they're going to stop farming.
You and Noubourne have a point. You are correct that I looked from the sellers point of view, however, the buyer isnt that pressured to switch. First of all, not many people actualy do buy things, second not many of them are willing to switch servers (leave friends, guild behind, etc). I still believe that in order for this to work as it is planned, SOE would have to implement this on al servers, otherwise exchange servers will consist of 80% sellers and 20%buyers. Which is a good thing for buyers, but a bad thing for sellers. So next thing is gonna happen, a lot of buyers will see they arent making much profit and leave those servers. Next thing what happens - exchange servers become almost like a regular server, with a very small population, and not enough people buying/selling to make them worthy of support.
THat was from financial point of view. I already expressed by dislike from the moral point of view. In my opinion, this move is desperate move by SOE to earn some cash and to lure people who dont mind selling/buying. But its not going to work becuase this type of game generally is not compatible with trading virtual items for RL cash.
I understand your moral objection. But I think if this type of game weren't compatible with this activity, MMOs would have died years ago, instead of having grown in popularity. The out of game market for virtual items has grown right along with it. That sort of says to me that they are at least complimentary. I'm not sure that leaving it underground is necessarily going to solve any of the problems that market has caused. At least, since the beginning of the black market for items, leaving it underground and banning here and there hasn't worked.
Maybe this isn't the right approach, but it seems to me that it's worth a shot. I can't really demonize Sony for giving part of its customer base what they want. We're the ones buying and selling the stuff. I would be happy just to see it done by actual MMO gamers rather than IGE's employees.
Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain
Im sorry but I must disagree with you. The reason why MMORPG market is popular, becuase it is very entertaining and lets people live out their fantasy in a virtual world. Part of that success is becuase companies were fighting "E-Bayers". Just listen to the amount of rage SOE's exchange have caused.
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Im sorry but I must disagree with you. The reason why MMORPG market is popular, becuase it is very entertaining and lets people live out their fantasy in a virtual world. Part of that success is becuase companies were fighting "E-Bayers". Just listen to the amount of rage SOE's exchange have caused.
Part of that success is also from players who kept playing because they could buy stuff they didn't have time to acquire in game. Just look at the increases in revenue for the out of game virtual item market.
I don't disagree with you. I just think you have to take into consideration that some people aren't voting with their posts on messagboards on this issue, they're voting with 200+ million dollars per year in out of game sales for MMOs.
Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain
I also think (and have had large debates on this) that the majority of the "rage" comes from what I call the Sheep or Vanillia Ice Syndrome.
Most people hate people that buy things on ebay for MMO's, but if you ask them why, they really can't come up with a valid reason why. It all started because someone somewhere said it was wrong, so everyone agreed. No one really knows why, but they listen to the community who says it is wrong so they go with it.
Sure you'll hear that "It ruins the economy" well we're still waiting for that to happen because people have been selling things for MMO's gonig on 6 years now, and none of the economies have been ruined.
Then you'll hear, "It's an unfair advantage". Well I have a job that only lets me play 20hours a week, someone unemployed or has a job without so many hours can play the game more, so that's an unfair advantage. Should MMO's limit play time so that everyone can only play 20hours a week?
So I challenge everyone to be a free thinker. Sit down and ask yourself why it bothers you. How does it really effect you? And see what you come up with.
Heh, well having played many mmorpgs I've made the following conclusion: Because of monopolies held by companies, they are able to charge exorbitant amounts for items. This in turn increases real price of all desired items in the market (game-wise), since currency becomes more abundant (causing inflation).
Inflation seems to be the worst effect on the casual gamer, since gamers that do not possess the monetary resources (in real life) must perform tasks more often (to obtain the level of resources needed to purchase the quantity of goods that would otherwise not be as expensive (as the creators indended).
Since competition drives the price down, the equilibrium price would decrease drastically.
When the price is driven down, then companies will make less profit (assuming that the farming time that needs to spent is the same), so that there would be less corporations being based solely on virtual item "brokering" (or whatever you want to call it).
So... I think that what SOE doing is quite clever...
Also.. what makes you think that the company can prohibit users from buying virtual items? Unless it's some kind of federally-sponsored agency .. (i.e. the FCC..f**k them) or the company doing the selling is a subsidiary of their company, then they really can't trace purchases or do anything of the sort legally (unless the company doing the selling is giving them purchase info...... which makes the company no better)
Just my opinion.....
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Originally posted by Jodokai I also think (and have had large debates on this) that the majority of the "rage" comes from what I call the Sheep or Vanillia Ice Syndrome. Most people hate people that buy things on ebay for MMO's, but if you ask them why, they really can't come up with a valid reason why. It all started because someone somewhere said it was wrong, so everyone agreed. No one really knows why, but they listen to the community who says it is wrong so they go with it. Sure you'll hear that "It ruins the economy" well we're still waiting for that to happen because people have been selling things for MMO's gonig on 6 years now, and none of the economies have been ruined. Then you'll hear, "It's an unfair advantage". Well I have a job that only lets me play 20hours a week, someone unemployed or has a job without so many hours can play the game more, so that's an unfair advantage. Should MMO's limit play time so that everyone can only play 20hours a week? So I challenge everyone to be a free thinker. Sit down and ask yourself why it bothers you. How does it really effect you? And see what you come up with.
Well it wont directly effect me because they will be on different servers. That being said, I will answer your question.
Ebayers cause problems, because most of them, i am not saying ALL of them, are horrible players. They tend to be the gun-ho kids that get partys and raids wiped. So yes I see something wrong with it. It is also cheating. I usually get about 20 hours a week, and it isnt hard to keep up with other peoples gear. *shrug* Maybe its just me, or i just dont like Ebayers. Thank god SOE will be doing this on new servers, and getting rid of all the farmers on the good servers.
--- Nuff said
--Nyture, Arc Convoker of fironia vie server (EQ) --Retired-- -- Nytur 39 Conjuror of Lucan D'lere (Quit due to low populations) -- Currently playing WoW while waiting for vanguard Explorer 66% Socializer 60% Killer 53% Achiever 20%
PLEASE SOE MAKE A CLASSIC EQ SERVER. Shadow of luclin was a prick in EQs side. PoP Was a gun to the face.
Originally posted by Noubourne Originally posted by jimmyman99 Im sorry but I must disagree with you. The reason why MMORPG market is popular, becuase it is very entertaining and lets people live out their fantasy in a virtual world. Part of that success is becuase companies were fighting "E-Bayers". Just listen to the amount of rage SOE's exchange have caused.
Part of that success is also from players who kept playing because they could buy stuff they didn't have time to acquire in game. Just look at the increases in revenue for the out of game virtual item market.
I don't disagree with you. I just think you have to take into consideration that some people aren't voting with their posts on messagboards on this issue, they're voting with 200+ million dollars per year in out of game sales for MMOs.
As far as I know, Ebayers are a very small circle of people who keep getting banned for their activities. I think SOE banned 600 or 700 of those, so thats less then 1% of population. Lets assume they only banned half of them, thats 1.5% at most. I dont believe that influences game genre popularity at all. Judging from the outrage of other players regarding sale of virtual items, i believe most people are not very fond of the idea.
Regarding revenues, this is kind of irrelevant, its like tring to legalize drugs to rip off profits. Or to make a more correction, its like paying off a fine to buy yourself a ticket out of jail for stealing or murdering someone. Basicaly, selling items is taking unfair advantage of those people who can afford it compared with people who cant. The whole idea of MMORPGs is you get rewarded for the TIME you spend and not for the MONEY you spend.
I know why it may sound weird to you, I personaly too can afford an item or two, but it just doesnt fit in my head why would me or anyone else do so. Everyone is entitled to their oppinion but Im glad that most people feel like I do and seeing at the amount of hate SOE has been getting lately I doubt they will force the issue.
Originally posted by Bobiin Originally posted by Jodokai I also think (and have had large debates on this) that the majority of the "rage" comes from what I call the Sheep or Vanillia Ice Syndrome. Most people hate people that buy things on ebay for MMO's, but if you ask them why, they really can't come up with a valid reason why. It all started because someone somewhere said it was wrong, so everyone agreed. No one really knows why, but they listen to the community who says it is wrong so they go with it. Sure you'll hear that "It ruins the economy" well we're still waiting for that to happen because people have been selling things for MMO's gonig on 6 years now, and none of the economies have been ruined. Then you'll hear, "It's an unfair advantage". Well I have a job that only lets me play 20hours a week, someone unemployed or has a job without so many hours can play the game more, so that's an unfair advantage. Should MMO's limit play time so that everyone can only play 20hours a week? So I challenge everyone to be a free thinker. Sit down and ask yourself why it bothers you. How does it really effect you? And see what you come up with.Well it wont directly effect me because they will be on different servers. That being said, I will answer your question. Ebayers cause problems, because most of them, i am not saying ALL of them, are horrible players. They tend to be the gun-ho kids that get partys and raids wiped. So yes I see something wrong with it. It is also cheating. I usually get about 20 hours a week, and it isnt hard to keep up with other peoples gear. *shrug* Maybe its just me, or i just dont like Ebayers. Thank god SOE will be doing this on new servers, and getting rid of all the farmers on the good servers. --- Nuff said
What evidence supports that ebayers are people that get their group wiped? Seems to me if you can afford to purchas something on ebay you have a credit card and are at least 18. This leads me to believe it's actually more mature people that are doing the buying.
Originally posted by Jodokai What evidence supports that ebayers are people that get their group wiped? Seems to me if you can afford to purchas something on ebay you have a credit card and are at least 18. This leads me to believe it's actually more mature people that are doing the buying.
I think what he realy meant is bad players buy items and twink their inventory. When your group is looking for lets say a warrior-tank for this raid and then you se a warrior with awesome gear compared to the warrior with just OK gear you would pick up a warrior with awesome gear right? Well, if EBAYing will become legit, then besides the items you would need to ask them for their experience as well, are they good at controlling aggro? do they manage adds well? can they keep an eye on the healer? will he just whack at the mob disregarding anything else like most inexperienced people do? An excellent fighter will have good/great gear because his group will beat most raid encounters. A bad fighter will have bad-average items becuase most groups hes in wont be able to beat raid encounters and he can only get items from weaker mobs.
Its simple realy, you get reward for your time invested and your skills - the more time/skills you got, the better rewards you gain. Its not fair to people who work hard to get their rewards just to see others buying those for RL money.
How would you feel if you work hard at work, lots of overtimes, no vacations and wait for that prmoised promotion when someone else gets promoted just because he/she is boss's nephew. What would this scenario even worse if that person sucked at their job.
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Originally posted by Jodokai What evidence supports that ebayers are people that get their group wiped? Seems to me if you can afford to purchas something on ebay you have a credit card and are at least 18. This leads me to believe it's actually more mature people that are doing the buying.
I think what he realy meant is bad players buy items and twink their inventory. When your group is looking for lets say a warrior-tank for this raid and then you se a warrior with awesome gear compared to the warrior with just OK gear you would pick up a warrior with awesome gear right? Well, if EBAYing will become legit, then besides the items you would need to ask them for their experience as well, are they good at controlling aggro? do they manage adds well? can they keep an eye on the healer? will he just whack at the mob disregarding anything else like most inexperienced people do? An excellent fighter will have good/great gear because his group will beat most raid encounters. A bad fighter will have bad-average items becuase most groups hes in wont be able to beat raid encounters and he can only get items from weaker mobs.
Its simple realy, you get reward for your time invested and your skills - the more time/skills you got, the better rewards you gain. Its not fair to people who work hard to get their rewards just to see others buying those for RL money.
How would you feel if you work hard at work, lots of overtimes, no vacations and wait for that prmoised promotion when someone else gets promoted just because he/she is boss's nephew. What would this scenario even worse if that person sucked at their job.
That's not quite a good anaolgy: It's more like, I work hard no vactaions and get my promotion on my work, while the other guy tips the boss $50 to get his promotion. The ebayers are stoping anyone else from getting the loot, they just aren't working for it.
As far as who would I choose, I wouldn't know, I never look at someone's gear so woudln't know who's was better. If the person is not a good tank, I try to correct them if I can't I bid them a fond farewell and find a better tank.
I think it will ruin the servers that are alreay up right now everything is wrong when you are getting RL money from a HOBBY not your job a HOBBY. It's like EQ1 wehn you'd have a lvl 65 with about 200 AA's asking where the hell BoT was. it's just not right...
For those of you that don't understand why many of us are against the SE I'll try to explain.
It's not that we think SoE is the evil empire and we are not against SoE per se.
We are against the SE because it flies in the face of everything RPG's are supposed to be about to us. In other words it's the principle of the matter. An RPG is supposed to be about building your character, taking it through adventures and quests to gain XP and levels. By being able to purchase items, you are circumventing the entire point of an RPG. At that point it ceases being an RPG and becomes a FPS with cheat codes.
It doesn't matter if it's on 1 server or 100 servers. In our opinion, something like that does not belong in the genre, period.
Where SoE comes into the equation themselves is with the implementation. They say it will not be on anything but special servers that you can opt in to and will never be on exsisting servers.(Their original position was one of changing exsisting servers over if demand was present to do so). People are concerned that this will not be the case in the long run. The basis for this argument is that SoE has not been completely forthcoming or less than completely honest about certain things in the past. The jedi/frogloks being in game, then revealed not to be will stick out in most peoples memories but is by no means a complete list.
Given that track record, people are very apprehensive when SoE or anyone says this won't affect them because of this lack of honesty from SoE on the big issues in the past.
The other thing that doesn't really seem to hold water for us is the magical "all the bad elements will disappear from the non SE servers when we open up the SE servers". While SoE didn't specifically say that, it would certainly seem to be implied.
Again for many of us that have been in the genre for a long time, no matter what you do to try and prevent these elements fom interfering with your game, they will be one step ahead of you. In other words, for every one you get rid of, 5 more pop up.
The other thing that comes to mind through my experience as far as these elements are concerned is, once they think, and that's the important part, once THEY think you endorse their "alternate playstyles" that element explodes.
So given that experience, making special servers where you will endorse this "alternative play" is not going to get rid of this element in your game. If anything else, I would guess it could possibly get worse because they now perceive their actions as ok.
So to sum up, some of us believe this to be a form of endorsed cheating and we are quitting or speaking out based on the principle of the matter for ourselves.
While I certainly don't think it's the end of the world, I do think it is a very bad decision and sets a horrible precedent for the MMORPG genre and hope it fails miserably.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
EQII, like EQ and all the titles out there use a great deal of psychology to lure players into their game and to keep them playing. The mechanics have become common place, and like a herd of sheep people eat it up and before too long its just assumed that a particular game style is common place. If I'm playing a game for 5,10,20 or 30 hours a week I need to trust the title and those making it....I need to know that this big long adventure (and in SOE terms thats Grind) is worth it. For the record, IMHO, SOE's mindless grind is not....but anyway.....
Early in this cycle players are tossed a bone at short intervals, but as time goes on the distance between rewards increases and increases and increases gradually....
Now, with this Station Exchange idea, SOE controls the flow of rewards into the game world and the distribution of these rewards throughout, taking a cut on the transactions no doubt. Its genius really, but yes, I am morally opposed to the entire idea. Now SOE can introduce items in the game that 90% of the player base has no hope in hell of obtaining because of the time investment required, so the 20hour /day gamer slash Ebayer can do it for them. SOE will offer the ability for said ebayer to collect the item and sell it and SOE gets a cut. So there will be two tiers of items / accomplishments introduced to the game. Elements that are obtainable by 90% of the general public and 10% available for purchase....yeah I see a big problem with this. If you think that SOE isn't going to manipulate and leverage this new form of item distribtuion/profit then you live in a dream world. They put pizza in their game, they are talking about introducing ads and now this brainaic idea...there is no stoping these loot whores.
So the game devs can make specific rewards that they know will be marketable by their little trader peons for distribution to the suckers who will buy into this system. I see a huge problem with a game developer doing this....its like a monopoly on grand scale. At least with the "black market" traders SOE isn't developing their game to cator to the "for profit" player....now they will.
Yeah, any inkling of integreity SOE had in my mind is gone now. You can't be the master controller of the game world with your hand on the dupe button and then turn around and create two tiers of game play because you already made your content a full time job and turn a profit on that too.
Charge me my 15-20/ month to play your dam game, sell me some expansions a couple times a year, other then that keep your hands out of my pockets, your ADs out of my game space and FOAD already. SOE can not be trusted with my game time experience because they are trying to nickle and dime everyone to death. Some see it as "valued added service" I see it as the endorsement of addictitive behavior through psyschological tactics and then profiting from it.
Yeah its wrong, and any other game title that trys this is wrong and I'll instantly close accounts on any MMO service that follows in line with SOE.
Einherjar_LC and Rekindle pretty much explained it in their one post what I couldnt in several of mine. I would like to share more of my feelings towards this issue but unfortunately Im at work atm and boss is coming this way...
Originally posted by Jodokai I also think (and have had large debates on this) that the majority of the "rage" comes from what I call the Sheep or Vanillia Ice Syndrome. Most people hate people that buy things on ebay for MMO's, but if you ask them why, they really can't come up with a valid reason why. It all started because someone somewhere said it was wrong, so everyone agreed. No one really knows why, but they listen to the community who says it is wrong so they go with it. Sure you'll hear that "It ruins the economy" well we're still waiting for that to happen because people have been selling things for MMO's gonig on 6 years now, and none of the economies have been ruined. Then you'll hear, "It's an unfair advantage". Well I have a job that only lets me play 20hours a week, someone unemployed or has a job without so many hours can play the game more, so that's an unfair advantage. Should MMO's limit play time so that everyone can only play 20hours a week? So I challenge everyone to be a free thinker. Sit down and ask yourself why it bothers you. How does it really effect you? And see what you come up with.
Well it wont directly effect me because they will be on different servers. That being said, I will answer your question. Ebayers cause problems, because most of them, i am not saying ALL of them, are horrible players. They tend to be the gun-ho kids that get partys and raids wiped. So yes I see something wrong with it. It is also cheating. I usually get about 20 hours a week, and it isnt hard to keep up with other peoples gear. *shrug* Maybe its just me, or i just dont like Ebayers. Thank god SOE will be doing this on new servers, and getting rid of all the farmers on the good servers. --- Nuff said
What evidence supports that ebayers are people that get their group wiped? Seems to me if you can afford to purchas something on ebay you have a credit card and are at least 18. This leads me to believe it's actually more mature people that are doing the buying.
I was hoping you'd ask that. Lets say a 24 year old male is playing everquest 1 for 1 month. They play a warrior class and get him to say level 35. They see a level 70 warrior up for sale. Okay, so he buys it. Now he is in a group, and doesnt taunt, know the extra skills or anything. His group wipes.
Secondly, most players that are TALENTED, and know what they are doing tend to earn their stuff. It is a different mind set. I would much rather be in a group with someone who is patient enough to earn their gear than someone who has to spend real money to get it. Anyone who is experienced, and yes TALENTED, in the mmorpg genre would probably agree with me.
No there isn't "real evidence". And yes some ebayers are TALENTED, but most arent.
--Nuff said
--Nyture, Arc Convoker of fironia vie server (EQ) --Retired-- -- Nytur 39 Conjuror of Lucan D'lere (Quit due to low populations) -- Currently playing WoW while waiting for vanguard Explorer 66% Socializer 60% Killer 53% Achiever 20%
PLEASE SOE MAKE A CLASSIC EQ SERVER. Shadow of luclin was a prick in EQs side. PoP Was a gun to the face.
Originally posted by Rekindle I see a very huge problem with this idea. EQII, like EQ and all the titles out there use a great deal of psychology to lure players into their game and to keep them playing. The mechanics have become common place, and like a herd of sheep people eat it up and before too long its just assumed that a particular game style is common place. If I'm playing a game for 5,10,20 or 30 hours a week I need to trust the title and those making it....I need to know that this big long adventure (and in SOE terms thats Grind) is worth it. For the record, IMHO, SOE's mindless grind is not....but anyway.....
Since WoW's grind is faster and easier, I guess that makes their game more mindless... but anyway...
Early in this cycle players are tossed a bone at short intervals, but as time goes on the distance between rewards increases and increases and increases gradually.... Now, with this Station Exchange idea, SOE controls the flow of rewards into the game world and the distribution of these rewards throughout, taking a cut on the transactions no doubt.
Right here it's clear you have absolutely no understanding of Station Exchange whatsoever. Sony doesn't run the auctions, the players do. If you think Sony will control the flow of items in the game with this sytem, then you must be under the illusion that currently IGE controls the flow of items in the game. They don't. Players do. IGE is simply a broker taking a percentage. This is the same role SOE wants to take over.
Its genius really, but yes, I am morally opposed to the entire idea. Now SOE can introduce items in the game that 90% of the player base has no hope in hell of obtaining because of the time investment required, so the 20hour /day gamer slash Ebayer can do it for them. SOE will offer the ability for said ebayer to collect the item and sell it and SOE gets a cut. So there will be two tiers of items / accomplishments introduced to the game. Elements that are obtainable by 90% of the general public and 10% available for purchase....yeah I see a big problem with this. If you think that SOE isn't going to manipulate and leverage this new form of item distribtuion/profit then you live in a dream world. They put pizza in their game, they are talking about introducing ads and now this brainaic idea...there is no stoping these loot whores.
I don't have my tin foil hat on right now, so I can't really comment on this speculative unfounded assertion with no basis in reality whatsoever. It would be easier for them to broker a deal with IGE secretly and take a percentage of the profits and begin manipulating item flow in the game that way so they wouldn't be suspected. Just one of the myriad of flaws in this line of thinking.
So the game devs can make specific rewards that they know will be marketable by their little trader peons for distribution to the suckers who will buy into this system. I see a huge problem with a game developer doing this....its like a monopoly on grand scale. At least with the "black market" traders SOE isn't developing their game to cator to the "for profit" player....now they will.
More tin foil hat stuff. Seriously you'd think you guys would be more concerned that you'll be abducted by aliens than that other players are going to buy stuff.
Yeah, any inkling of integreity SOE had in my mind is gone now. You can't be the master controller of the game world with your hand on the dupe button and then turn around and create two tiers of game play because you already made your content a full time job and turn a profit on that too. Charge me my 15-20/ month to play your dam game, sell me some expansions a couple times a year, other then that keep your hands out of my pockets, your ADs out of my game space and FOAD already. SOE can not be trusted with my game time experience because they are trying to nickle and dime everyone to death. Some see it as "valued added service" I see it as the endorsement of addictitive behavior through psyschological tactics and then profiting from it.
Yeah its wrong, and any other game title that trys this is wrong and I'll instantly close accounts on any MMO service that follows in line with SOE.
Why wait? Cancel your accounts now. Developers already control the flow of items in the game, and for all you know every one of them works in secret with IGE to take a profit off of rare items and gold sold on the black market.
As far as endorsment of addictive behavior through psychological tactics and then profiting from it...
Every game company uses the exact same mechanisms for reward. It's considered basic groundwork for MMOs, and their business model depends on huge time investments being required to gain advancement. If you think they wouldn't stop buying and selling if they could, you're nuts. SOE was the first company to go to Ebay and Yahoo and ask them to pull auctions. Perhaps you should learn a few more facts before you make wild speculation about something you clearly do not understand very well.
Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain
Originally posted by Bobiin Originally posted by BobiinI was hoping you'd ask that. Lets say a 24 year old male is playing everquest 1 for 1 month. They play a warrior class and get him to say level 35. They see a level 70 warrior up for sale. Okay, so he buys it. Now he is in a group, and doesnt taunt, know the extra skills or anything. His group wipes. Secondly, most players that are TALENTED, and know what they are doing tend to earn their stuff. It is a different mind set. I would much rather be in a group with someone who is patient enough to earn their gear than someone who has to spend real money to get it. Anyone who is experienced, and yes TALENTED, in the mmorpg genre would probably agree with me. No there isn't "real evidence". And yes some ebayers are TALENTED, but most arent. --Nuff said
...and I was hoping you'd say that: Let's say you're playing with your two best friends people you know didn't buy a character from ebay. One is a tnak the other a healer, all 3 highest level possible. Your tank friend doesn't notice the healer getting hit and the healer goes down and you all wipe. What's the differernce?
This is a true story by the way. It really happened to me. We weren't 50th level but we were all over 25th level. There are people of all levels that have never seen ebay that still don't know how to group. Not only that but a wipe is nothing. 4% XP debt that you get back killing 4 things.
Rekindle, The problem with your argument is all the way through it you said "we" or "us". You're putting your values on everyone else. With the exeption of the one poster who agreed with you, you don't konw if this is the reason EVERYONE hates them. You are trying to force people to play the video game like you want them to. You want everyone to believe your way is the right way to play an RPG.
To me an RPG has NOTHING to do with loot, XP or leveling, all it has to do with is the story. I don't care if I'm grouped with a level 50 character with the best stuff that could be bought on ebay, or a level 5 character still using the Isle of Refuge gear, can we tell a good story together? If the answer is yes, then I had a successful game, even if I didn't earn 1 XP or 1 copper piece.
Why is your definition on "how to play an RPG" better than mine? Obviously it's not, just like mine isn't better than yours, but they are different.
My point is, if someone wants to play the game a certain way (or not play it a certain way), as long as they don't effect the way we want to play it, who are we to tell them it's wrong?
Originally posted by Bobiin I was hoping you'd ask that. Lets say a 24 year old male is playing everquest 1 for 1 month. They play a warrior class and get him to say level 35. They see a level 70 warrior up for sale. Okay, so he buys it. Now he is in a group, and doesnt taunt, know the extra skills or anything. His group wipes. Secondly, most players that are TALENTED, and know what they are doing tend to earn their stuff. It is a different mind set. I would much rather be in a group with someone who is patient enough to earn their gear than someone who has to spend real money to get it. Anyone who is experienced, and yes TALENTED, in the mmorpg genre would probably agree with me. No there isn't "real evidence". And yes some ebayers are TALENTED, but most arent. --Nuff said
...and I was hoping you'd say that: Let's say you're playing with your two best friends people you know didn't buy a character from ebay. One is a tnak the other a healer, all 3 highest level possible. Your tank friend doesn't notice the healer getting hit and the healer goes down and you all wipe. What's the differernce?
This is a true story by the way. It really happened to me. We weren't 50th level but we were all over 25th level. There are people of all levels that have never seen ebay that still don't know how to group. Not only that but a wipe is nothing. 4% XP debt that you get back killing 4 things.
Rekindle, The problem with your argument is all the way through it you said "we" or "us". You're putting your values on everyone else. With the exeption of the one poster who agreed with you, you don't konw if this is the reason EVERYONE hates them. You are trying to force people to play the video game like you want them to. You want everyone to believe your way is the right way to play an RPG.
To me an RPG has NOTHING to do with loot, XP or leveling, all it has to do with is the story. I don't care if I'm grouped with a level 50 character with the best stuff that could be bought on ebay, or a level 5 character still using the Isle of Refuge gear, can we tell a good story together? If the answer is yes, then I had a successful game, even if I didn't earn 1 XP or 1 copper piece.
Why is your definition on "how to play an RPG" better than mine? Obviously it's not, just like mine isn't better than yours, but they are different.
My point is, if someone wants to play the game a certain way (or not play it a certain way), as long as they don't effect the way we want to play it, who are we to tell them it's wrong?
The difference is, your buddy EARNED his character, and the group wipe was a ligit accident. As opposed to the "ebayer" who just bought a level 50 warrior and gets 1 2 3 maybe four group wipes in a row and doesnt know its his fault. Ebaying is very wrong, not only do inexperienced players get behind a wheel of a big rig when they only know how to drive a bumper car, it effects the people around him. From most of my experiences, and probably most others experiences, ebayers tend to be more immature and impatient than others.
But that is just my 7 years of MMORPG experience....
--Nyture, Arc Convoker of fironia vie server (EQ) --Retired-- -- Nytur 39 Conjuror of Lucan D'lere (Quit due to low populations) -- Currently playing WoW while waiting for vanguard Explorer 66% Socializer 60% Killer 53% Achiever 20%
PLEASE SOE MAKE A CLASSIC EQ SERVER. Shadow of luclin was a prick in EQs side. PoP Was a gun to the face.
Since the beginning, RPG's(PnP) have been about rolling a character, developing that character that is unique and of your own personality, an alter ego so to speak. You character grows and gains experience through his/her adventures gathering great rewards or suffering horrible deaths. The growing and molding of your character is part of the story.
When you bypass the molding of your character and skip straight to the final product(be it through e-bay or SoE-bay), then you are missing the whole point of the RPG process. By doing this you are reducing the RPG to nothing more than a console game where the hero appears "out of thin air" with all of his hero skills fully developed to take on bad guys. You cease playing an RPG at this point and are now doing nothing more than playing a multi-person FPS in a fantasy setting.
The long term affects of this decision by SoE has great potential to affect us all in a most negative way. To say "if it doesn't bother us right now so it must be ok" is being short-sighted. Alot of the people that are upset about this are looking at the bigger current picture and further down the road to the next generation of games(and some current ones) and the affect on those should SE be successful.
On the flip side, if this turns out to be the magic bullet that gets rid of, or consolidates the "alternative playstyle" people on different servers away from the real players, leaving the those servers untarnished, I think you will see alot of people return. But I see this as unlikely.
I have been in this genre(MMO's) for awhile, and when given an inch, the cheaters will always take a mile. They simply care about no one but themselves.
That's my perception of things anyways.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
Originally posted by Einherjar_LC Since the beginning, RPG's(PnP) have been about rolling a character, developing that character that is unique and of your own personality, an alter ego so to speak. You character grows and gains experience through his/her adventures gathering great rewards or suffering horrible deaths. The growing and molding of your character is part of the story. When you bypass the molding of your character and skip straight to the final product(be it through e-bay or SoE-bay), then you are missing the whole point of the RPG process. By doing this you are reducing the RPG to nothing more than a console game where the hero appears "out of thin air" with all of his hero skills fully developed to take on bad guys. You cease playing an RPG at this point and are now doing nothing more than playing a multi-person FPS in a fantasy setting. The long term affects of this decision by SoE has great potential to affect us all in a most negative way. To say "if it doesn't bother us right now so it must be ok" is being short-sighted. Alot of the people that are upset about this are looking at the bigger current picture and further down the road to the next generation of games(and some current ones) and the affect on those should SE be successful. On the flip side, if this turns out to be the magic bullet that gets rid of, or consolidates the "alternative playstyle" people on different servers away from the real players, leaving the those servers untarnished, I think you will see alot of people return. But I see this as unlikely. I have been in this genre(MMO's) for awhile, and when given an inch, the cheaters will always take a mile. They simply care about no one but themselves. That's my perception of things anyways.
This is what they are about TO YOU. Not what they are about to everyone. Like I said before, my character can grow and change through the things that happen to him, that have nothing to do with gaining level. What does developing a personality have to do with XP?
To use an ingame example, when I started my Wood Elf, he hated Dark Elves. He joined a guild that was led by a noble paladin. The paladin had let the hated Dark Elves into the guild. My character was at a guild meeting and the Dark Elf was there. He discussed his concen with the paladin, who told him the Dark Elf had saved his life, other trusted guild members related similar stories, so eventually my character learned to accept that Dark Elf.
Now my character grew and developed, and it wouldn't have mattered if I was level 50 or level 5.
As far as getting your party wiped, if the rest of the party realizes the tank doesn't know his job, they can either teach him or ditch him. Not only that but if you're level 50 you don't care about debt anyway. So this isn't really a valid argument. It doesn't matter if you "earned it" or not, a wipe is a wipe. Does it make it more of a wipe if someone bought their character or earned it?
To use a PnP example: Have you ever played the game Planescape? This is where all the characters are basiclly gods. They are created with all the skills of an experienced adventurer. Or how about the games that start with the character is already 10th level. To some people these games are more fun then starting out at level 1. Again, don't put your values on other people. If this is the way they want to play the game, let them. It doesn't make them evil, just different.
Originally posted by Jodokai This is what they are about TO YOU. Not what they are about to everyone. Like I said before, my character can grow and change through the things that happen to him, that have nothing to do with gaining level. What does developing a personality have to do with XP? To use an ingame example, when I started my Wood Elf, he hated Dark Elves. He joined a guild that was led by a noble paladin. The paladin had let the hated Dark Elves into the guild. My character was at a guild meeting and the Dark Elf was there. He discussed his concen with the paladin, who told him the Dark Elf had saved his life, other trusted guild members related similar stories, so eventually my character learned to accept that Dark Elf. Now my character grew and developed, and it wouldn't have mattered if I was level 50 or level 5. As far as getting your party wiped, if the rest of the party realizes the tank doesn't know his job, they can either teach him or ditch him. Not only that but if you're level 50 you don't care about debt anyway. So this isn't really a valid argument. It doesn't matter if you "earned it" or not, a wipe is a wipe. Does it make it more of a wipe if someone bought their character or earned it? To use a PnP example: Have you ever played the game Planescape? This is where all the characters are basiclly gods. They are created with all the skills of an experienced adventurer. Or how about the games that start with the character is already 10th level. To some people these games are more fun then starting out at level 1. Again, don't put your values on other people. If this is the way they want to play the game, let them. It doesn't make them evil, just different.
How do you know his values arent values of most of MMORPG players? Since most MMORPGs ARE about leveling up their character and practicaly NONE of them allow freely to bypass tedious leveling (except in some cases where they are doing so to balance out population like they did in DAOC). So in my opinion, most people DO actualy value the leveling of their character. And since most MMO producing companies DO prosecute people who try to sell stuff thats proof to me that people who play those games do agree with their policy. Becuase if most players would not agree with that policy, they wouldnt play and companies would have to change it.
Anyway, I believe it is the will of the majority of players - selling online for RL cash IS wrong in MMO genre.
That IS what RPG's started out as, I'm talking PnP here. This is what true RPG's are and always have been. These are the basis of todays MMORPG's.
I'm not trying to impose anything on anyone.
If these people don't like the ideals behind what true RPG's are then perhaps they should be playing the games you mentioned among others and quit trying to change every MMORPG they play into something it's not supposed to be. I don't play FPS games and then complain that they aren't RPG's. These people should quit coming into the RPG's and complaining they aren't more like console games.
I have no problem with people wanting to play differently, but why does that have to come at the expense of my enjoyment? That's ok I guess, huh? But if we complain, we get told shut up and let others play the way they want, and quit putting your values on others. I guess how we want to play doesn't matter. Infringing on our playstyle all you want is ok. Who's dictating to who how to play again?
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
Originally posted by Einherjar_LC If these people don't like the ideals behind what true RPG's are then perhaps they should be playing the games you mentioned among others and quit trying to change every MMORPG they play into something it's not supposed to be. I don't play FPS games and then complain that they aren't RPG's. These people should quit coming into the RPG's and complaining they aren't more like console games. I have no problem with people wanting to play differently, but why does that have to come at the expense of my enjoyment? That's ok I guess, huh? But if we complain, we get told shut up and let others play the way they want, and quit putting your values on others. I guess how we want to play doesn't matter. Infringing on our playstyle all you want is ok. Who's dictating to who how to play again?
They already don't get it. Sony isn't telling them to get it. It's just moving them off the "normal" servers. If even one person leaves your server to go buy stuff on an exchange server, then hasn't Sony's approach at least marginally improved your game experience on a normal server? Yes. So get on board.
Even if the idea fails, nothing will have changed on any server you play on. If the exact same amount of items are sold on your server as before the exchange, the status quo that you seem to pine for will have been preserved. What's your beef with the new service then? Is it that Sony is recognizing at least 25% of their players don't get the idea of an RPG?
And another thing, I suppose you NEVER EVER ONCE bended the rules playing D&D. RIGHT! We've all had our full-on psionic groups just for the hell of it. At least, I would venture to say many PnP players had at least a few fun runs with rules bent or ignored altogether.
Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain
Comments
It's about time SOE woke up and saw the market that was available to them. You idiots who think this is a bad thing will have a tough time finding a game that hasnt taken this stance in 6 months when they see soe making a bundle off it. Business is business take your whining to WoW and stfu please.
BTW SOE never inforced the no sale approach. IGE and Yantis have been doing this for years.. have they ruined your games? I'd answer apparently not since you're still playing. Get over it you holier than thou old codgers who think theres something morally upstanding in the anti sales camp. SOE has seen that it doesnt hurt the game and they deserve a piece of the pie they helped to create. GOOD FOR THEM! It made me come back to EQ2..
Go ahead and flame me.. whatever you say you're wrong because SOE says so..
ps.. in general i find SOE's games too simplistic and they tend to cater to carebears but they are 100% correct on the exchange idea. Now if only i could talk CCP into doing this with EVE!
Make a difference!
Not only that but you're only looking at a sellers point of view. If you were a buyer, where would you go? On a server that you have to pay really high prices, or a server where it's a dollar? If farmers can't sell what they have, they're going to stop farming.
You and Noubourne have a point. You are correct that I looked from the sellers point of view, however, the buyer isnt that pressured to switch. First of all, not many people actualy do buy things, second not many of them are willing to switch servers (leave friends, guild behind, etc). I still believe that in order for this to work as it is planned, SOE would have to implement this on al servers, otherwise exchange servers will consist of 80% sellers and 20%buyers. Which is a good thing for buyers, but a bad thing for sellers. So next thing is gonna happen, a lot of buyers will see they arent making much profit and leave those servers. Next thing what happens - exchange servers become almost like a regular server, with a very small population, and not enough people buying/selling to make them worthy of support.
THat was from financial point of view. I already expressed by dislike from the moral point of view. In my opinion, this move is desperate move by SOE to earn some cash and to lure people who dont mind selling/buying. But its not going to work becuase this type of game generally is not compatible with trading virtual items for RL cash.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I understand your moral objection. But I think if this type of game weren't compatible with this activity, MMOs would have died years ago, instead of having grown in popularity. The out of game market for virtual items has grown right along with it. That sort of says to me that they are at least complimentary. I'm not sure that leaving it underground is necessarily going to solve any of the problems that market has caused. At least, since the beginning of the black market for items, leaving it underground and banning here and there hasn't worked.
Maybe this isn't the right approach, but it seems to me that it's worth a shot. I can't really demonize Sony for giving part of its customer base what they want. We're the ones buying and selling the stuff. I would be happy just to see it done by actual MMO gamers rather than IGE's employees.
Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain
Im sorry but I must disagree with you. The reason why MMORPG market is popular, becuase it is very entertaining and lets people live out their fantasy in a virtual world. Part of that success is becuase companies were fighting "E-Bayers". Just listen to the amount of rage SOE's exchange have caused.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Part of that success is also from players who kept playing because they could buy stuff they didn't have time to acquire in game. Just look at the increases in revenue for the out of game virtual item market.
I don't disagree with you. I just think you have to take into consideration that some people aren't voting with their posts on messagboards on this issue, they're voting with 200+ million dollars per year in out of game sales for MMOs.
Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain
I also think (and have had large debates on this) that the majority of the "rage" comes from what I call the Sheep or Vanillia Ice Syndrome.
Most people hate people that buy things on ebay for MMO's, but if you ask them why, they really can't come up with a valid reason why. It all started because someone somewhere said it was wrong, so everyone agreed. No one really knows why, but they listen to the community who says it is wrong so they go with it.
Sure you'll hear that "It ruins the economy" well we're still waiting for that to happen because people have been selling things for MMO's gonig on 6 years now, and none of the economies have been ruined.
Then you'll hear, "It's an unfair advantage". Well I have a job that only lets me play 20hours a week, someone unemployed or has a job without so many hours can play the game more, so that's an unfair advantage. Should MMO's limit play time so that everyone can only play 20hours a week?
So I challenge everyone to be a free thinker. Sit down and ask yourself why it bothers you. How does it really effect you? And see what you come up with.
Heh, well having played many mmorpgs I've made the following conclusion: Because of monopolies held by companies, they are able to charge exorbitant amounts for items. This in turn increases real price of all desired items in the market (game-wise), since currency becomes more abundant (causing inflation).
Inflation seems to be the worst effect on the casual gamer, since gamers that do not possess the monetary resources (in real life) must perform tasks more often (to obtain the level of resources needed to purchase the quantity of goods that would otherwise not be as expensive (as the creators indended).
Since competition drives the price down, the equilibrium price would decrease drastically.
When the price is driven down, then companies will make less profit (assuming that the farming time that needs to spent is the same), so that there would be less corporations being based solely on virtual item "brokering" (or whatever you want to call it).
So... I think that what SOE doing is quite clever...
Also.. what makes you think that the company can prohibit users from buying virtual items? Unless it's some kind of federally-sponsored agency .. (i.e. the FCC..f**k them) or the company doing the selling is a subsidiary of their company, then they really can't trace purchases or do anything of the sort legally (unless the company doing the selling is giving them purchase info...... which makes the company no better)
Just my opinion.....
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
--Nyture, Arc Convoker of fironia vie server (EQ) --Retired--
-- Nytur 39 Conjuror of Lucan D'lere (Quit due to low populations)
-- Currently playing WoW while waiting for vanguard
Explorer 66%
Socializer 60%
Killer 53%
Achiever 20%
PLEASE SOE MAKE A CLASSIC EQ SERVER. Shadow of luclin was a prick in EQs side. PoP Was a gun to the face.
Part of that success is also from players who kept playing because they could buy stuff they didn't have time to acquire in game. Just look at the increases in revenue for the out of game virtual item market.
I don't disagree with you. I just think you have to take into consideration that some people aren't voting with their posts on messagboards on this issue, they're voting with 200+ million dollars per year in out of game sales for MMOs.
As far as I know, Ebayers are a very small circle of people who keep getting banned for their activities. I think SOE banned 600 or 700 of those, so thats less then 1% of population. Lets assume they only banned half of them, thats 1.5% at most. I dont believe that influences game genre popularity at all. Judging from the outrage of other players regarding sale of virtual items, i believe most people are not very fond of the idea.
Regarding revenues, this is kind of irrelevant, its like tring to legalize drugs to rip off profits. Or to make a more correction, its like paying off a fine to buy yourself a ticket out of jail for stealing or murdering someone. Basicaly, selling items is taking unfair advantage of those people who can afford it compared with people who cant. The whole idea of MMORPGs is you get rewarded for the TIME you spend and not for the MONEY you spend.
I know why it may sound weird to you, I personaly too can afford an item or two, but it just doesnt fit in my head why would me or anyone else do so. Everyone is entitled to their oppinion but Im glad that most people feel like I do and seeing at the amount of hate SOE has been getting lately I doubt they will force the issue.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
What evidence supports that ebayers are people that get their group wiped? Seems to me if you can afford to purchas something on ebay you have a credit card and are at least 18. This leads me to believe it's actually more mature people that are doing the buying.
I think what he realy meant is bad players buy items and twink their inventory. When your group is looking for lets say a warrior-tank for this raid and then you se a warrior with awesome gear compared to the warrior with just OK gear you would pick up a warrior with awesome gear right? Well, if EBAYing will become legit, then besides the items you would need to ask them for their experience as well, are they good at controlling aggro? do they manage adds well? can they keep an eye on the healer? will he just whack at the mob disregarding anything else like most inexperienced people do? An excellent fighter will have good/great gear because his group will beat most raid encounters. A bad fighter will have bad-average items becuase most groups hes in wont be able to beat raid encounters and he can only get items from weaker mobs.
Its simple realy, you get reward for your time invested and your skills - the more time/skills you got, the better rewards you gain. Its not fair to people who work hard to get their rewards just to see others buying those for RL money.
How would you feel if you work hard at work, lots of overtimes, no vacations and wait for that prmoised promotion when someone else gets promoted just because he/she is boss's nephew. What would this scenario even worse if that person sucked at their job.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I think what he realy meant is bad players buy items and twink their inventory. When your group is looking for lets say a warrior-tank for this raid and then you se a warrior with awesome gear compared to the warrior with just OK gear you would pick up a warrior with awesome gear right? Well, if EBAYing will become legit, then besides the items you would need to ask them for their experience as well, are they good at controlling aggro? do they manage adds well? can they keep an eye on the healer? will he just whack at the mob disregarding anything else like most inexperienced people do? An excellent fighter will have good/great gear because his group will beat most raid encounters. A bad fighter will have bad-average items becuase most groups hes in wont be able to beat raid encounters and he can only get items from weaker mobs.
Its simple realy, you get reward for your time invested and your skills - the more time/skills you got, the better rewards you gain. Its not fair to people who work hard to get their rewards just to see others buying those for RL money.
How would you feel if you work hard at work, lots of overtimes, no vacations and wait for that prmoised promotion when someone else gets promoted just because he/she is boss's nephew. What would this scenario even worse if that person sucked at their job.
That's not quite a good anaolgy: It's more like, I work hard no vactaions and get my promotion on my work, while the other guy tips the boss $50 to get his promotion. The ebayers are stoping anyone else from getting the loot, they just aren't working for it.
As far as who would I choose, I wouldn't know, I never look at someone's gear so woudln't know who's was better. If the person is not a good tank, I try to correct them if I can't I bid them a fond farewell and find a better tank.
It's not that we think SoE is the evil empire and we are not against SoE per se.
We are against the SE because it flies in the face of everything RPG's are supposed to be about to us. In other words it's the principle of the matter. An RPG is supposed to be about building your character, taking it through adventures and quests to gain XP and levels. By being able to purchase items, you are circumventing the entire point of an RPG. At that point it ceases being an RPG and becomes a FPS with cheat codes.
It doesn't matter if it's on 1 server or 100 servers. In our opinion, something like that does not belong in the genre, period.
Where SoE comes into the equation themselves is with the implementation. They say it will not be on anything but special servers that you can opt in to and will never be on exsisting servers.(Their original position was one of changing exsisting servers over if demand was present to do so). People are concerned that this will not be the case in the long run. The basis for this argument is that SoE has not been completely forthcoming or less than completely honest about certain things in the past. The jedi/frogloks being in game, then revealed not to be will stick out in most peoples memories but is by no means a complete list.
Given that track record, people are very apprehensive when SoE or anyone says this won't affect them because of this lack of honesty from SoE on the big issues in the past.
The other thing that doesn't really seem to hold water for us is the magical "all the bad elements will disappear from the non SE servers when we open up the SE servers". While SoE didn't specifically say that, it would certainly seem to be implied.
Again for many of us that have been in the genre for a long time, no matter what you do to try and prevent these elements fom interfering with your game, they will be one step ahead of you. In other words, for every one you get rid of, 5 more pop up.
The other thing that comes to mind through my experience as far as these elements are concerned is, once they think, and that's the important part, once THEY think you endorse their "alternate playstyles" that element explodes.
So given that experience, making special servers where you will endorse this "alternative play" is not going to get rid of this element in your game. If anything else, I would guess it could possibly get worse because they now perceive their actions as ok.
So to sum up, some of us believe this to be a form of endorsed cheating and we are quitting or speaking out based on the principle of the matter for ourselves.
While I certainly don't think it's the end of the world, I do think it is a very bad decision and sets a horrible precedent for the MMORPG genre and hope it fails miserably.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
I see a very huge problem with this idea.
EQII, like EQ and all the titles out there use a great deal of psychology to lure players into their game and to keep them playing. The mechanics have become common place, and like a herd of sheep people eat it up and before too long its just assumed that a particular game style is common place. If I'm playing a game for 5,10,20 or 30 hours a week I need to trust the title and those making it....I need to know that this big long adventure (and in SOE terms thats Grind) is worth it. For the record, IMHO, SOE's mindless grind is not....but anyway.....
Early in this cycle players are tossed a bone at short intervals, but as time goes on the distance between rewards increases and increases and increases gradually....
Now, with this Station Exchange idea, SOE controls the flow of rewards into the game world and the distribution of these rewards throughout, taking a cut on the transactions no doubt. Its genius really, but yes, I am morally opposed to the entire idea. Now SOE can introduce items in the game that 90% of the player base has no hope in hell of obtaining because of the time investment required, so the 20hour /day gamer slash Ebayer can do it for them. SOE will offer the ability for said ebayer to collect the item and sell it and SOE gets a cut. So there will be two tiers of items / accomplishments introduced to the game. Elements that are obtainable by 90% of the general public and 10% available for purchase....yeah I see a big problem with this. If you think that SOE isn't going to manipulate and leverage this new form of item distribtuion/profit then you live in a dream world. They put pizza in their game, they are talking about introducing ads and now this brainaic idea...there is no stoping these loot whores.
So the game devs can make specific rewards that they know will be marketable by their little trader peons for distribution to the suckers who will buy into this system. I see a huge problem with a game developer doing this....its like a monopoly on grand scale. At least with the "black market" traders SOE isn't developing their game to cator to the "for profit" player....now they will.
Yeah, any inkling of integreity SOE had in my mind is gone now. You can't be the master controller of the game world with your hand on the dupe button and then turn around and create two tiers of game play because you already made your content a full time job and turn a profit on that too.
Charge me my 15-20/ month to play your dam game, sell me some expansions a couple times a year, other then that keep your hands out of my pockets, your ADs out of my game space and FOAD already. SOE can not be trusted with my game time experience because they are trying to nickle and dime everyone to death. Some see it as "valued added service" I see it as the endorsement of addictitive behavior through psyschological tactics and then profiting from it.
Yeah its wrong, and any other game title that trys this is wrong and I'll instantly close accounts on any MMO service that follows in line with SOE.
Einherjar_LC and Rekindle pretty much explained it in their one post what I couldnt in several of mine. I would like to share more of my feelings towards this issue but unfortunately Im at work atm and boss is coming this way...
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
What evidence supports that ebayers are people that get their group wiped? Seems to me if you can afford to purchas something on ebay you have a credit card and are at least 18. This leads me to believe it's actually more mature people that are doing the buying.
I was hoping you'd ask that. Lets say a 24 year old male is playing everquest 1 for 1 month. They play a warrior class and get him to say level 35. They see a level 70 warrior up for sale. Okay, so he buys it. Now he is in a group, and doesnt taunt, know the extra skills or anything. His group wipes.
Secondly, most players that are TALENTED, and know what they are doing tend to earn their stuff. It is a different mind set. I would much rather be in a group with someone who is patient enough to earn their gear than someone who has to spend real money to get it. Anyone who is experienced, and yes TALENTED, in the mmorpg genre would probably agree with me.
No there isn't "real evidence". And yes some ebayers are TALENTED, but most arent.
--Nuff said
--Nyture, Arc Convoker of fironia vie server (EQ) --Retired--
-- Nytur 39 Conjuror of Lucan D'lere (Quit due to low populations)
-- Currently playing WoW while waiting for vanguard
Explorer 66%
Socializer 60%
Killer 53%
Achiever 20%
PLEASE SOE MAKE A CLASSIC EQ SERVER. Shadow of luclin was a prick in EQs side. PoP Was a gun to the face.
Why wait? Cancel your accounts now. Developers already control the flow of items in the game, and for all you know every one of them works in secret with IGE to take a profit off of rare items and gold sold on the black market.
As far as endorsment of addictive behavior through psychological tactics and then profiting from it...
Every game company uses the exact same mechanisms for reward. It's considered basic groundwork for MMOs, and their business model depends on huge time investments being required to gain advancement. If you think they wouldn't stop buying and selling if they could, you're nuts. SOE was the first company to go to Ebay and Yahoo and ask them to pull auctions. Perhaps you should learn a few more facts before you make wild speculation about something you clearly do not understand very well.
Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain
...and I was hoping you'd say that: Let's say you're playing with your two best friends people you know didn't buy a character from ebay. One is a tnak the other a healer, all 3 highest level possible. Your tank friend doesn't notice the healer getting hit and the healer goes down and you all wipe. What's the differernce?
This is a true story by the way. It really happened to me. We weren't 50th level but we were all over 25th level. There are people of all levels that have never seen ebay that still don't know how to group. Not only that but a wipe is nothing. 4% XP debt that you get back killing 4 things.
Rekindle,
The problem with your argument is all the way through it you said "we" or "us". You're putting your values on everyone else. With the exeption of the one poster who agreed with you, you don't konw if this is the reason EVERYONE hates them. You are trying to force people to play the video game like you want them to. You want everyone to believe your way is the right way to play an RPG.
To me an RPG has NOTHING to do with loot, XP or leveling, all it has to do with is the story. I don't care if I'm grouped with a level 50 character with the best stuff that could be bought on ebay, or a level 5 character still using the Isle of Refuge gear, can we tell a good story together? If the answer is yes, then I had a successful game, even if I didn't earn 1 XP or 1 copper piece.
Why is your definition on "how to play an RPG" better than mine? Obviously it's not, just like mine isn't better than yours, but they are different.
My point is, if someone wants to play the game a certain way (or not play it a certain way), as long as they don't effect the way we want to play it, who are we to tell them it's wrong?
...and I was hoping you'd say that: Let's say you're playing with your two best friends people you know didn't buy a character from ebay. One is a tnak the other a healer, all 3 highest level possible. Your tank friend doesn't notice the healer getting hit and the healer goes down and you all wipe. What's the differernce?
This is a true story by the way. It really happened to me. We weren't 50th level but we were all over 25th level. There are people of all levels that have never seen ebay that still don't know how to group. Not only that but a wipe is nothing. 4% XP debt that you get back killing 4 things.
Rekindle,
The problem with your argument is all the way through it you said "we" or "us". You're putting your values on everyone else. With the exeption of the one poster who agreed with you, you don't konw if this is the reason EVERYONE hates them. You are trying to force people to play the video game like you want them to. You want everyone to believe your way is the right way to play an RPG.
To me an RPG has NOTHING to do with loot, XP or leveling, all it has to do with is the story. I don't care if I'm grouped with a level 50 character with the best stuff that could be bought on ebay, or a level 5 character still using the Isle of Refuge gear, can we tell a good story together? If the answer is yes, then I had a successful game, even if I didn't earn 1 XP or 1 copper piece.
Why is your definition on "how to play an RPG" better than mine? Obviously it's not, just like mine isn't better than yours, but they are different.
My point is, if someone wants to play the game a certain way (or not play it a certain way), as long as they don't effect the way we want to play it, who are we to tell them it's wrong?
The difference is, your buddy EARNED his character, and the group wipe was a ligit accident. As opposed to the "ebayer" who just bought a level 50 warrior and gets 1 2 3 maybe four group wipes in a row and doesnt know its his fault. Ebaying is very wrong, not only do inexperienced players get behind a wheel of a big rig when they only know how to drive a bumper car, it effects the people around him. From most of my experiences, and probably most others experiences, ebayers tend to be more immature and impatient than others.
But that is just my 7 years of MMORPG experience....
--Nyture, Arc Convoker of fironia vie server (EQ) --Retired--
-- Nytur 39 Conjuror of Lucan D'lere (Quit due to low populations)
-- Currently playing WoW while waiting for vanguard
Explorer 66%
Socializer 60%
Killer 53%
Achiever 20%
PLEASE SOE MAKE A CLASSIC EQ SERVER. Shadow of luclin was a prick in EQs side. PoP Was a gun to the face.
Since the beginning, RPG's(PnP) have been about rolling a character, developing that character that is unique and of your own personality, an alter ego so to speak. You character grows and gains experience through his/her adventures gathering great rewards or suffering horrible deaths.
The growing and molding of your character is part of the story.
When you bypass the molding of your character and skip straight to the final product(be it through e-bay or SoE-bay), then you are missing the whole point of the RPG process. By doing this you are reducing the RPG to nothing more than a console game where the hero appears "out of thin air" with all of his hero skills fully developed to take on bad guys. You cease playing an RPG at this point and are now doing nothing more than playing a multi-person FPS in a fantasy setting.
The long term affects of this decision by SoE has great potential to affect us all in a most negative way. To say "if it doesn't bother us right now so it must be ok" is being short-sighted. Alot of the people that are upset about this are looking at the bigger current picture and further down the road to the next generation of games(and some current ones) and the affect on those should SE be successful.
On the flip side, if this turns out to be the magic bullet that gets rid of, or consolidates the "alternative playstyle" people on different servers away from the real players, leaving the those servers untarnished, I think you will see alot of people return. But I see this as unlikely.
I have been in this genre(MMO's) for awhile, and when given an inch, the cheaters will always take a mile. They simply care about no one but themselves.
That's my perception of things anyways.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
This is what they are about TO YOU. Not what they are about to everyone. Like I said before, my character can grow and change through the things that happen to him, that have nothing to do with gaining level. What does developing a personality have to do with XP?
To use an ingame example, when I started my Wood Elf, he hated Dark Elves. He joined a guild that was led by a noble paladin. The paladin had let the hated Dark Elves into the guild. My character was at a guild meeting and the Dark Elf was there. He discussed his concen with the paladin, who told him the Dark Elf had saved his life, other trusted guild members related similar stories, so eventually my character learned to accept that Dark Elf.
Now my character grew and developed, and it wouldn't have mattered if I was level 50 or level 5.
As far as getting your party wiped, if the rest of the party realizes the tank doesn't know his job, they can either teach him or ditch him. Not only that but if you're level 50 you don't care about debt anyway. So this isn't really a valid argument. It doesn't matter if you "earned it" or not, a wipe is a wipe. Does it make it more of a wipe if someone bought their character or earned it?
To use a PnP example: Have you ever played the game Planescape? This is where all the characters are basiclly gods. They are created with all the skills of an experienced adventurer. Or how about the games that start with the character is already 10th level. To some people these games are more fun then starting out at level 1. Again, don't put your values on other people. If this is the way they want to play the game, let them. It doesn't make them evil, just different.
How do you know his values arent values of most of MMORPG players? Since most MMORPGs ARE about leveling up their character and practicaly NONE of them allow freely to bypass tedious leveling (except in some cases where they are doing so to balance out population like they did in DAOC). So in my opinion, most people DO actualy value the leveling of their character. And since most MMO producing companies DO prosecute people who try to sell stuff thats proof to me that people who play those games do agree with their policy. Becuase if most players would not agree with that policy, they wouldnt play and companies would have to change it.
Anyway, I believe it is the will of the majority of players - selling online for RL cash IS wrong in MMO genre.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
"This is what they are about TO YOU.
-Jodokai
That IS what RPG's started out as, I'm talking PnP here. This is what true RPG's are and always have been. These are the basis of todays MMORPG's.
I'm not trying to impose anything on anyone.
If these people don't like the ideals behind what true RPG's are then perhaps they should be playing the games you mentioned among others and quit trying to change every MMORPG they play into something it's not supposed to be. I don't play FPS games and then complain that they aren't RPG's. These people should quit coming into the RPG's and complaining they aren't more like console games.
I have no problem with people wanting to play differently, but why does that have to come at the expense of my enjoyment? That's ok I guess, huh? But if we complain, we get told shut up and let others play the way they want, and quit putting your values on others. I guess how we want to play doesn't matter. Infringing on our playstyle all you want is ok. Who's dictating to who how to play again?
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
They already don't get it. Sony isn't telling them to get it. It's just moving them off the "normal" servers. If even one person leaves your server to go buy stuff on an exchange server, then hasn't Sony's approach at least marginally improved your game experience on a normal server? Yes. So get on board.
Even if the idea fails, nothing will have changed on any server you play on. If the exact same amount of items are sold on your server as before the exchange, the status quo that you seem to pine for will have been preserved. What's your beef with the new service then? Is it that Sony is recognizing at least 25% of their players don't get the idea of an RPG?
And another thing, I suppose you NEVER EVER ONCE bended the rules playing D&D. RIGHT! We've all had our full-on psionic groups just for the hell of it. At least, I would venture to say many PnP players had at least a few fun runs with rules bent or ignored altogether.
Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain