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Call the ambulance WoW under 8 million subs now

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  • NagelRitterNagelRitter Member Posts: 607

    @Cirin

    Then you have to understand that your view is a very solitary one. What made WoW as popular as it was were the elements that you think have no value. Games weren't all end-game centric then, people liked WoW because it let them be characters in a WarCraft universe, you wouldn't be able to sell end-game raiding to them if you tried, it is only after they put effort into their characters in the world that they wanted to care about bigger challenges. These were the players that rejected the leveling of EQ.

    What you like is irrelevant, we were not talking about what you liked. We were talking about what changed, and WoW definitely changed very, very drastically, and I saw little proof that these changes helped with its population levels at all.

    Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
    Currently playing: GW2, EVE
    Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  • ego13ego13 Member Posts: 267
    Originally posted by NagelRitter

    @Cirin

    Then you have to understand that your view is a very solitary one. What made WoW as popular as it was were the elements that you think have no value. Games weren't all end-game centric then, people liked WoW because it let them be characters in a WarCraft universe, you wouldn't be able to sell end-game raiding to them if you tried, it is only after they put effort into their characters in the world that they wanted to care about bigger challenges. These were the players that rejected the leveling of EQ.

    What you like is irrelevant, we were not talking about what you liked. We were talking about what changed, and WoW definitely changed very, very drastically, and I saw little proof that these changes helped with its population levels at all.

    Actually, what WoW changed initially was the pace.

     

    What attracted people in droves initially was the fact that, unlike the other games at the time, you could play and develop MUCH FASTER than anything else out at the time.  Granted it has become faster and faster over time but that is to be expected with changes to their game.  It's only logical that this happens when you raise the level cap.

     

    You can pretend as if my viewpoint is the minority, you would be wrong.  There is a very vocal minority that touts their sandbox, zero-development drivel all over these forums but fortunately the numbers (cash) speak to the developers and they continue to cater to those that actually stay and play (here's a hint, it's not the scenery driven crafters).

    Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

    image

  • STYNKFYSTSTYNKFYST Member Posts: 290
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Cirin

    Every game starts at end game.

    <--- My avatar once again applies.

    Every game can be played in many different ways.

    Actually, in my opinion, this is the worse WoW has done to the genre... make people think only "end game" matters. EQ started it, WoW made it widely popular so that many MMO players think it's the only way to play such a game.

    ^This

    Game ends at end game to me. The journey is the only thing that matters IMO.

    About this whole "popularity" game everyone likes to play in regards to WoW....McDonald's is still probably the most visited fast food chain these days. Is it the best? Hell no!. But many more people go there than the others. People are too lazy to try anything else for more than a day.

  • azarhalazarhal Member RarePosts: 1,402

    I wish this type of report told us where the sub lost is happening: Western World or Asia.

  • ego13ego13 Member Posts: 267
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Actually, what was the most praised about WoW during beta and at release wasn't the leveling speed (which was also much slower back then), but the fact that you could level 100% by doing quests instead of having to set camp and grind mobs for hours and hours.

    Agreed, the lack of dependency on groups led to a MUCH FASTER pace.

     

    On top of that the time investment was shorter as well to level compared to any other product at the time.

     

    At this point we're really arguing semantics as I would say my point still stands, including this.

    Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

    image

  • doodphacedoodphace Member UncommonPosts: 1,858
    Originally posted by azarhal

    I wish this type of report told us where the sub lost is happening: Western World or Asia.

    Everytime they announce sub losses in their quarterly reviews (which will happen next week), thay have always say the majorify of sub losses are in Asia.

  • ego13ego13 Member Posts: 267
    Originally posted by STYNKFYST
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Cirin

    Every game starts at end game.

    <--- My avatar once again applies.

    Every game can be played in many different ways.

    Actually, in my opinion, this is the worse WoW has done to the genre... make people think only "end game" matters. EQ started it, WoW made it widely popular so that many MMO players think it's the only way to play such a game.

    ^This

    Game ends at end game to me. The journey is the only thing that matters IMO.

    About this whole "popularity" game everyone likes to play in regards to WoW....McDonald's is still probably the most visited fast food chain these days. Is it the best? Hell no!. But many more people go there than the others. People are too lazy to try anything else for more than a day.

    The food comparison is asinine, at best.

     

    WoW is an investment of time, whereas McDonalds is quite the opposite, it actually saves people time (and money in their eyes).  This comparison couldn't be more flawed and needs to stop being used as it lends zero validity to anyone with intelligence.

    Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

    image

  • NagelRitterNagelRitter Member Posts: 607
    Originally posted by Cirin

    Actually, what WoW changed initially was the pace.

    Was it, really? Do you seriously imagine the average person who doesn't know crap about MMORPG's worry about "pace" and how soon they reach endgame? Unthinkable. WoW attracted people because it was Blizzard + WarCraft. The influx of WoW players started from WCIII and WCIII TFT. And a LOT of people were WC fans, including myself, everyone flocked to WoW who had the money and the internet connection. To pretend that WC had no effect on WoW is preposterous...

    The rest, what kept people in the game, was that it was a relatively well-made game, it didn't have a horrible UI, it was intuitive, it made sense, and, yes, it let people solo and not be forced into groups all the time. It was a fairly relaxed game, which is kind of the point - endgame rushing makes it not a relaxed game anymore, no matter how "casual" it is.

    Faster pace... consider the times, it was 2004, MMO's were just coming out. Next you're going to tell me people played EVE because of "consequences". None of these discussions existed at that time. WoW wasn't made for hardcore raiders, WoW created them.

    There is a very vocal minority that touts their sandbox, zero-development drivel all over these forums but fortunately the numbers (cash) speak to the developers and they continue to cater to those that actually stay and play (here's a hint, it's not the scenery driven crafters).

    Where did I mention anything about sandboxes or crafting? Or are you just out of things to say at this point?

    You realize there are different ways to design the same themepark, right?

    Also, your comments about a vocal minority is hilarious. I don't know of a more prominent vocal minority than the hardcore raider who thinks everyone plays games his way when the vast majority don't.

     

    Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
    Currently playing: GW2, EVE
    Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  • PrenhoPrenho Member Posts: 298
    The thing I want to see the most is WoW going to oblivion. i will make party if it happens.It will help the  MMO genre.
  • NovusodNovusod Member UncommonPosts: 912
    At this point there is nothing Blizzard can do to increase sales revenue. It is too early for Free 2 Play conversion and they already have a cash shop. Their only option if they want to make more profits for Actavision's shareholders is to start cutting costs. This means laying off staff, cutting support, closing and merging servers, etc. Maybe it is time to start working on WoW2 if they aren't already doing it in secret. My prediction is they will be under 7 million subs by the end of the year.
  • PrenhoPrenho Member Posts: 298
    Originally posted by Ikeda

    Nadia,  I agree with you 100%.

    Still, show me a MMO with even a quarter of the WoW subscription base.... Even at this point.

    Lineage 1 still has almost 2 million subs(eastern market). It is not a quarter but it is a good number.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    Originally posted by Prenho
    Originally posted by Ikeda

    Nadia,  I agree with you 100%.

    Still, show me a MMO with even a quarter of the WoW subscription base.... Even at this point.

    Lineage 1 still has almost 2 million subs(eastern market). It is not a quarter but it is a good number.

    America is the only market to a lot of our friends here....

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    Originally posted by Nadia

    I resubbed 4 months ago but quit after 2 weeks

     

    I wanted to see the Panda content but I couldnt stomache leveling thru Cata

     

    Cata is not fun

    if a game is not fun - why bother?

    Similar thing happened to me.

    I bought the expansion at release and started a Monk then quit teh monk simpley because I did not want to level through Cata.

    I picked up my old Pally and just leveled that through Pandyland. Of course I quit the game at 90. I remember turning in some quest near some fallen hollow tree bridge in the 2nd to last zone. Dinged 90, logged off right tere on the spot and canceled my Sub.

    Right before the announcement of the cash shop XP boost, I was actually considering re subbing. I am so tired of Cash Shops, I wanted a game without one,  Then I say that......LOL.

  • PrenhoPrenho Member Posts: 298
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Prenho
    Originally posted by Ikeda

    Nadia,  I agree with you 100%.

    Still, show me a MMO with even a quarter of the WoW subscription base.... Even at this point.

    Lineage 1 still has almost 2 million subs(eastern market). It is not a quarter but it is a good number.

    America is the only market to a lot of our friends here....

     

    Eastern market > west for MMOs. There are more "successful" sub based MMOs there than here. A successful MMO doesn't need to be a WoW killer nor have WoW-subs. But needs to have a regular number of subs even after many years. Easten players are not spoiled as US players that are used to cry due to anything. That is why it is a hard time for MMOs here.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628

    So if/when WoW drops to >200k subs, will people call it a failure? Cause I'm pretty sure its made more money than any video game in the history of, well everything.

  • furbansfurbans Member UncommonPosts: 968
    Originally posted by Prenho
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Prenho
    Originally posted by Ikeda

    Nadia,  I agree with you 100%.

    Still, show me a MMO with even a quarter of the WoW subscription base.... Even at this point.

    Lineage 1 still has almost 2 million subs(eastern market). It is not a quarter but it is a good number.

    America is the only market to a lot of our friends here....

     

    Eastern market > west for MMOs. There are more "successful" sub based MMOs there than here. A successful MMO doesn't need to be a WoW killer nor have WoW-subs. But needs to have a regular number of subs even after many years. Easten players are not spoiled as US players that are used to cry due to anything. That is why it is a hard time for MMOs here.

    Which at least in China subs are not payed for but gametime and everyone pays for game time and which is more profitable region wise is questionable.  For all we know 1 sub in the US could equal 4-6 Asian players.

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Prenho

    Lineage 1 still has almost 2 million subs(eastern market). It is not a quarter but it is a good number.

    unless lineage has doubled their subs since 2007 -- thats no longer true

     

    from ncsoft financial reports from Q4 2007
    http://massively.joystiq.com/2008/02/21/q4-2007-ncsoft-s-subscription-numbers-and-tabula-rasa-s-financial/
    Lineage
    [Worldwide]: 1,049,763 subscriptions (down 93,936 from Q3)
    [North America]: 6,414 subscriptions (down 585 from Q3)

    Lineage 2
    [Worldwide]: 926,570 subscriptions (down 4,693 from Q3)
    [North America & Europe]: 79,986 subscriptions (up 943 from Q3)

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    The recent financials are about in like with the worldwide figures.  The NA servers were shutdown.

    i may be mistaken but i thought ncsoft didnt report sub numbers anymore?

  • PrenhoPrenho Member Posts: 298
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Prenho

    Lineage 1 still has almost 2 million subs(eastern market). It is not a quarter but it is a good number.

    unless lineage has doubled their subs since 2007 -- thats no longer true

     

    from ncsoft financial reports from Q4 2007
    http://massively.joystiq.com/2008/02/21/q4-2007-ncsoft-s-subscription-numbers-and-tabula-rasa-s-financial/
    Lineage
    [Worldwide]: 1,049,763 subscriptions (down 93,936 from Q3)
    [North America]: 6,414 subscriptions (down 585 from Q3)

    Lineage 2
    [Worldwide]: 926,570 subscriptions (down 4,693 from Q3)
    [North America & Europe]: 79,986 subscriptions (up 943 from Q3)

    Subs of L1 has increased since NA servers went down, In 1Q13 L1 had an income of 66 million dollars, bigger than the 4 previous quarters of 2012.

  • PrenhoPrenho Member Posts: 298
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Prenho
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Prenho
    Originally posted by Ikeda

    Nadia,  I agree with you 100%.

    Still, show me a MMO with even a quarter of the WoW subscription base.... Even at this point.

    Lineage 1 still has almost 2 million subs(eastern market). It is not a quarter but it is a good number.

    America is the only market to a lot of our friends here....

     

    Eastern market > west for MMOs. There there are more "successful" sub based MMOs than here.

    The reason is pretty simple, the Eastern market seems to have a way higher tolerance for low content pure grind based games than the Western one.

    A successful MMO doesn't need to be a WoW killer nor have WoW-subs. But needs to have a stable number of subs even after the years.

    Agreed, I'd just add "a stable and sufficient number of subs". Developers aren't just there to make games, but also to make enough money to feed their families and take care of them.

    Easten players are not spoiled as US players that are used to cry due to anything. That is why it is a hard time for MMOs here.

    Disagree. See first answer. Most of the Eastern MMOs, the Western player wouldn't touch with a ten foot pool since they are horrible mindless grinds.

    If content means doing the same instance over and over, I prefer the old style grind and drama due to guild wars fighting over world resources.

    Western MMOs are made to be finished as a single player game withing the 1st week, 1 month for the laziest casuals.

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Prenho

    Subs of L1 has increased since NA servers went down, In 1Q13 L1 had an income of 66 million dollars, bigger than the 4 previous quarters of 2012.

    sounds reasonable but still hard to quantify that as being subs

     

    after 2007  (early 2008)

    http://wow.joystiq.com/2008/01/22/world-of-warcraft-hits-10-million-subscribers/

    Blizzard stopped giving regional breakdowns  (last we heard, WOW was 55% Asian subs)

    and Ncsoft stopped giving sub counts and gave revenue instead

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Member CommonPosts: 2,556
    Originally posted by Ikeda

    Nadia,  I agree with you 100%.

    Still, show me a MMO with even a quarter of the WoW subscription base.... Even at this point.

    Well hey, 9 million of those subs never counted anyway. They're just people in internet cafes in China, not actually subscribers.

     

    So, it's much more likely they have even less subs than that. In its prime, WoW only had 3 million western subs.

     

    Wake up devs, themepark model doesn't work.

  • PrenhoPrenho Member Posts: 298
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Prenho

    Subs of L1 has increased since NA servers went down, In 1Q13 L1 had an income of 66 million dollars, bigger than the 4 previous quarters of 2012.

    sounds reasonable but still hard to quantify that as being subs

     

    after 2007  (early 2008)

    http://wow.joystiq.com/2008/01/22/world-of-warcraft-hits-10-million-subscribers/

    Blizzard stopped giving regional breakdowns  (last we heard, WOW was 55% Asian subs)

    and Ncsoft stopped giving sub counts and gave revenue instead

    L1 sub costs between 10-15 dollars depending on the country, if L1 made 15-18 million each month during the first quarter, I can suppose that L1 has something between 1.6KK-2KK based on the first quarter of 2013.

  • Grimlock426Grimlock426 Member Posts: 159
    Originally posted by Frostvein

    People that are trying to blame the games "downfall" on anything are being foolish.

     

    Simply put, the game is 8-9 years old at this point and people are just getting tired of playing it.

     

    Very few people play the SAME video game day in and day out for very long periods of time. The fact that it still has 8 million people this late in its life cycle is nothing short of amazing.

    This!  WoW will continue to lose subs, will likely go F2P at some point, but will still likely live on for another decade, just like EQ and UO are still around. 

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Ikeda

    Nadia,  I agree with you 100%.

    Still, show me a MMO with even a quarter of the WoW subscription base.... Even at this point.

    Well hey, 9 million of those subs never counted anyway. They're just people in internet cafes in China, not actually subscribers.

    So, it's much more likely they have even less subs than that. In its prime, WoW only had 3 million western subs.

    Wake up devs, themepark model doesn't work.

    Ummm...

    Hope this is sarcasm... cause the themepark model works very, very well - depending on the game and the payment model.

    Bad games fail no matter what themepark/sandbox model they use, and payment models can be successful no matter what the model - if the game is good enough players are willing to spend what the devs are asking for.

    I'm a fan of P2P subscription based, but I'm not niave enough to believe F2P doesn't line the pockets of studios that have been successful with that model.

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