Originally posted by CactusJack Originally posted by DistopiaOriginally posted by Dr_ShivinskiI'm guessing most of the people who are bemoan the idea of OWPVP have no friends in game who could help them in a tight spot. The Solo Crowd who have taken a genre meant to played with alot of people and turned it into a multiplayer lobby game with solo play inbetween queues.
Haven't seen anyone bemoaning open world PVP, people just want the option to not PVP.You do have an option. Draw your weapon and defend yourself or get your corpse looted. If that sounds harsh, then get more friends. OW PvP means, if you are logged in and out in the games open world, you are consenting to PvP. It's as simple as that.
Solo play in OWPvP games is possible, but I haven't met too many long term solo players in EvE and even less in DF. It's possible to PLAY solo, but bc those companies designed the game to actually be played with other humans...sometimes people want to play with you, whether you like it or not.
There's always the option to not play the game, which apparently a lot of players choose.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski I'm guessing most of the people who are bemoan the idea of OWPVP have no friends in game who could help them in a tight spot. The Solo Crowd who have taken a genre meant to played with alot of people and turned it into a multiplayer lobby game with solo play inbetween queues.
Haven't seen anyone bemoaning open world PVP, people just want the option to not PVP.
You do have an option. Draw your weapon and defend yourself or get your corpse looted. If that sounds harsh, then get more friends. OW PvP means, if you are logged in and out in the games open world, you are consenting to PvP. It's as simple as that.
Solo play in OWPvP games is possible, but I haven't met too many long term solo players in EvE and even less in DF. It's possible to PLAY solo, but bc those companies designed the game to actually be played with other humans...sometimes people want to play with you, whether you like it or not.
Pretty sure he meant reading about ppl bemoaning not wanting to play OW PvP, not those that do in fact play in one.
after watching the WOW vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue.
no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like gamers were even 5 years ago.
no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it?
Yeah, because WoW is representative of every single PvEer out there. People people are not complaining WoW is too easy left and right.
Because ganking miners is so hard and requires so much teamwork (LOL).
You do realize that games that are pure PvP competition (Dota-likes) have more people in them than even WoW does? Now what?
Originally posted by Utinni
Why do people keep posting about having an MMORPG with FFA pvp? Most of these games are based off DnD which if I can recall noone in any campaign ive ever done was pk'd. Virtually every other genre of game now is focused on you killing other people, why insist that RPG's be the same?
Go play mobas, fps, rts, fighting game... oh wait those are all much more difficult than mmorpg pvp... coincidence? think not.
Burn.
Originally posted by CactusJack
I would like to say..what can you do to stop this from happening or what can you do different next time? If you can put aside your anger/rage from the loss...then you are becoming a better player.
Well, no, I'll have to play in a manner that I don't enjoy. I have to go put on gear I don't want and play in a manner I don't want the role I don't want. Or, I can never do anything interesting since everything an FFA PvP game usually offers that is interesting is not in safe areas.
So the answer to your question is: make my play time unfun.
Who always wins in FFA PvP? Griefers and gankers. I don't want to be one, even if that means I have to gimp myself. That is also how life works. "The evil usually wins, unless the good are very, very careful."
Are you a good PvP'er? But you don't like open world PvP when you are FORCED into it? Um, that's just full of contridictions.
No, it's not full of contradictions. Plenty of people are pretty good at competitive PvP (Dota likes, FPS, RTS, etc.), but don't particularly care for MMO "PvP". Partially because MMO "PvP" is often shitty and unbalanced, not to mention that a proper fight is virtually impossible to find. Either a stronger guy attacks a weaker guy or he runs away.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
How does being killed by a player with a higher level or superior gear make someone a better player? There's no skill that can be learned to overcome the power disparity, so what exactly is happening to make the losing player a better player?
In regards to losing making one a better player:
In most games it is true that nothing, or very little, can be learned from a higher level character or someone more advanced in the game just coming along and popping you.
But that isn't true for all games.
Some games offer opportunities for newer characters, characters outfitted for non-combat activities, or solo characters, etc.. to skillfully avoid those that seek them while still accomplishing their activities they are wishing to do. In Eve Online for example, one can get a lot accomplished in dangerous territory.
But in Eve one will most likely go through a lot of trial and error learning how to watch their scanner properly and read and interpret what is going on around them properly to avoid getting killed by those more numerous, advanced in skill, or well equipped than they.
It doesn't apply to every game, but it isn't necessarily universally true that a lowbie getting ganked by a highbie is something that can't be helped, and that there is nothing for the lowbie to learn from it. Eve is one example, the possibilities for game design are limitless.
The issue isn't that people can't learn to deal with gankers, or that newbies don't have a chance, or whatever, the issue is that a lot of people jsut really have 0 care for that entire paradigm, and they do not want to play games that are as heavily PvP dominated. Especially since most of these games seem to be a Game of Thrones simulator. Why can't you make a game where PvP is rare and gravely punished, like in the civilized world? Or why not make a game that simulates a society that doesn't even exist? What the hell is up with all this "grit", you don't have enough with the news?
Many people play a game to get away from grittiness not get into it, and your dog-eat-dog worlds are bland and boring to them.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Originally posted by killahhafter watching the WOW vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue.no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like gamers were even 5 years ago.no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it?/face in hands
Well i don't pvp to much i do when i want to. Have i played open world pvp games? yes and I found them tedious only reason. I'm all for facing someone 1v1 but getting ganked by someone far superior in gear/level isn't exactly the funniest thing in the world. Does that mean because many games now of day have taking certain aspects of communication away, people don't like pvp cause of this? no thats a pretty stupid statement to make, it could be perhaps some people like to get massive amount of people to clear content that is fun to them (myself). I am actually pretty good at pvp, I just don't like open world pvp where im forced into it. And i don't like unbalanced pvp games such as WoW's current state. In an MMO guildwars 1 was my favorite pvp game. And for last part for WoW currently right now it is impossible to do every boss in the game without tactics/teamwork. They have released bosses only available to hardcore modes, so your required to do tactics. And also that reasoning on teamwork/tactics corelates to pvp is also bad. You can get some of the best raiders in the world and they could suck at pvp, and you can get some of the best pvp'ers in the world and they would have a hard time clearing the content consiestent raiders do. Just some people, like hardcore pvp others like a simpler approach to pvp. For my self make a pvp game where its balanced, im not forced to do it unless i want to and i will play it that is all
I think I have heard this close to a thousand times in game. That's probably a conservative estimate. Your first statement, in red, I would like to say..what can you do to stop this from happening or what can you do different next time? If you can put aside your anger/rage from the loss...then you are becoming a better player.
Next, the green text. Are you a good PvP'er? But you don't like open world PvP when you are FORCED into it? Um, that's just full of contridictions. 1st lesson in PvP is to know when to run. If you're good at PvP in a game, then you know that. Open world PvP means anyone can attack at anytime...if you are playing a game that has that....then it wasn't forced...it means you weren't ready. Does that make sense? If I undock in a hauler in EvE or only have an axe and pickaxe in Darkfall....that means when I go out into the world....i'm saying to myself...Be ready to find a way out.
You know what happens sometimes? I lose. It wasn't bc it was 3vs1 or whatever. I just lost. I fought back..I tried to run..I ducked and dodged...I bobbed and weaved and they still got me.
The difference is I can then get some friends and we can hunt your ass down. No one is at a disadvantage when the rule of the land is..."don't undock in anything that you aren't willing to lose".
I'm not bringing friends to help me beat you, I'm bringing them for your friends. If you don't have any, then you are going to be at a numerical disadvantage.
Every FFA PvP game i've played it has always been about the PLAYER and not his toon/ship/gear/shinys. A players attitude is what allows the PvP seed take hold, not his hand to eye coordination, class choice, nothing else.
How does being killed by a player with a higher level or superior gear make someone a better player? There's no skill that can be learned to overcome the power disparity, so what exactly is happening to make the losing player a better player?
As I have stated before, the two OW PvP games I've spent the most time in are EvE and DF1. Superior gear and higher levels are easy to overcome with friends. It's why solo play isn't a great choice in those games, more so in DF. Here's the thing..skill progression in EvE in any skill is up to V. Tha'ts five. The killboards are littered with many higher sp players losing to groups of lesser skilled players bc they caught that guy napping or they planned a counter attack.
It's all BS. If a newb is walking along and I was out hunting in DF...I would attack them sometimes...just to see what they do. Some of them ran, some started typing frantically, some just stopped...you know whom I was looking for...the person that fought back. If you are willing to fight me with less skill points and lesser gear...but gave it their all...I would reimburse you or even rez them.
People don't have to win the fight to become better players. I remember the first time I got warp scrambled in an asteroid belt and destroyed..I was pissed. I was angry, but I thought...how did he do that? What skill governs warp disruptors? How do you fit it? What are the power requirements? It made me learn the pvp side because I wanted a counter to it.
I would say that was a positive. Would you not? Look at it like this. You know not to stick your finger in a light socket because of two reasons. One, you did it as a child and it shocked the crap out of you...or Two...you tried to do it and someone smacked your hand.
Both lessons were imprinted with pain. I don't stick my fingers in light sockets even now. It was a life lesson that has stood the test of time.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
You do have an option. Draw your weapon and defend yourself or get your corpse looted. If that sounds harsh, then get more friends. OW PvP means, if you are logged in and out in the games open world, you are consenting to PvP. It's as simple as that.
Solo play in OWPvP games is possible, but I haven't met too many long term solo players in EvE and even less in DF. It's possible to PLAY solo, but bc those companies designed the game to actually be played with other humans...sometimes people want to play with you, whether you like it or not.
There's always the option to not play the game, which apparently a lot of players choose.
If you're going to take anything from this thread, CactusJack, take that. If people can't choose in the game, they will choose outside the game. Their choice is to not to buy.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
You do have an option. Draw your weapon and defend yourself or get your corpse looted. If that sounds harsh, then get more friends. OW PvP means, if you are logged in and out in the games open world, you are consenting to PvP. It's as simple as that.
Solo play in OWPvP games is possible, but I haven't met too many long term solo players in EvE and even less in DF. It's possible to PLAY solo, but bc those companies designed the game to actually be played with other humans...sometimes people want to play with you, whether you like it or not.
There's always the option to not play the game, which apparently a lot of players choose.
If you're going to take anything from this thread, CactusJack, take that. If people can't choose in the game, they will choose outside the game. Their choice is to not to buy.
Which is what I've stated all along. If you are unhappy with a game, then don't sub to it. I concur.
If people complain about OW PvP and then sub to one...I think they should follow that advice. I don't sub to LOTRO bc it's not my type of game. I don't go on and on upset that they didn't make Middle Earth an Open World PvP environment. I either accept it or not. Here's my cc number or "cancel your sub" button are my choices.
It's why these types of threads never go anywhere...some people are just seeking different things in their game experience.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
after watching the WOW vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue.
no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like gamers were even 5 years ago.
no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it?
Yeah, because WoW is representative of every single PvEer out there. People people are not complaining WoW is too easy left and right.
Because ganking miners is so hard and requires so much teamwork (LOL).
You do realize that games that are pure PvP competition (Dota-likes) have more people in them than even WoW does? Now what?
Originally posted by Utinni
Why do people keep posting about having an MMORPG with FFA pvp? Most of these games are based off DnD which if I can recall noone in any campaign ive ever done was pk'd. Virtually every other genre of game now is focused on you killing other people, why insist that RPG's be the same?
Go play mobas, fps, rts, fighting game... oh wait those are all much more difficult than mmorpg pvp... coincidence? think not.
Burn.
Originally posted by CactusJack
I would like to say..what can you do to stop this from happening or what can you do different next time? If you can put aside your anger/rage from the loss...then you are becoming a better player.
Well, no, I'll have to play in a manner that I don't enjoy. I have to go put on gear I don't want and play in a manner I don't want the role I don't want. Or, I can never do anything interesting since everything an FFA PvP game usually offers that is interesting is not in safe areas.
So the answer to your question is: make my play time unfun.
Who always wins in FFA PvP? Griefers and gankers. I don't want to be one, even if that means I have to gimp myself. That is also how life works. "The evil usually wins, unless the good are very, very careful."
Are you a good PvP'er? But you don't like open world PvP when you are FORCED into it? Um, that's just full of contridictions.
No, it's not full of contradictions. Plenty of people are pretty good at competitive PvP (Dota likes, FPS, RTS, etc.), but don't particularly care for MMO "PvP". Partially because MMO "PvP" is often shitty and unbalanced, not to mention that a proper fight is virtually impossible to find. Either a stronger guy attacks a weaker guy or he runs away.
a few points
people are indeed complaining wow is too easy.
and ganking miners, well there was that, but that was only part of it back in the day, i killed far more wanna be heros than miners, and when i myself got ganked, i got back on the horse. the miners were the people that despite the warnings, went out unarmed into the wilderness , then got upset when they were killed.
this whole topic is very contentious , meat eaters vs vegans, heres a few quotes from the meat eaters of our times:
The tendency to whining and complaining may be taken as the surest sign symptom of little souls and inferior intellects.
You don't make progress by standing on the sidelines, whimpering and complaining.
Complainers change their complaints, but they never reduce the amount of time spent in complaining.
and my favorite:
Everyone has to make their own decisions. I still believe in that. You just have to be able to accept the consequences without complaining.
In most games it is true that nothing, or very little, can be learned from a higher level character or someone more advanced in the game just coming along and popping you.
But that isn't true for all games.
Some games offer opportunities for newer characters, characters outfitted for non-combat activities, or solo characters, etc.. to skillfully avoid those that seek them while still accomplishing their activities they are wishing to do. In Eve Online for example, one can get a lot accomplished in dangerous territory.
But in Eve one will most likely go through a lot of trial and error learning how to watch their scanner properly and read and interpret what is going on around them properly to avoid getting killed by those more numerous, advanced in skill, or well equipped than they.
It doesn't apply to every game, but it isn't necessarily universally true that a lowbie getting ganked by a highbie is something that can't be helped, and that there is nothing for the lowbie to learn from it. Eve is one example, the possibilities for game design are limitless.
Whoa, whoa... Eve far from being a poster boy of game design. It is practically plagued by design decisions that make little sense, and if they wanted to correct those, they would have to "pull a SOE" (=drastically change the game thus alienating the established playerbase). CCP has acknowledged this by saying along the lines of "There are some design decisions we are simply stuck with."
The directional scanner, in particular, is a nonsensical invention which, in any game released today, would update itself automatically and perhaps even give sound ques when combat probes are in the vicinity. It is poor UI design to force the player to manually update the scanner every few seconds. It is also one of those things that are needlessly complicated without offering any additional gameplay value.
Or maybe you meant that Eve offers many opportunities for improvement, which I could agree with: Eve definitely has a lot of room for improvement. And if you didn't mean that, I don't know what the hell you were talking about.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Whoa there, buddy. Let's not pretend, even jokingly, that open world PVPers are "pro" by any stretch.
MMORPG PVP is casual PVP. Normal (non-MMO) PVP games involve little to no non-skill elements, while MMORPG PVP involves progression and "full PVP" (eg open world PVP) involves even more. Non-skill elements in PVP are training wheels to aid an unskilled player in experiencing victory.
The less that casual PVPers get called "pro", even jokingly, the better. The training wheels already inflate these players' egos enough without it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Been playing MMOs for... god, 14 years now I think, and this is pretty much what I've experienced (I don't agree with all of it, especially discounting DF). To the "PvE" camp, there ARE 100% FFA PvP games- they're called "shooters." You want compromise? Try playing Darkfall. The AI is (usually) much more intelligent than most "AAA" games, and doesn't use gimmicks (i.e. "You need to tank him in the lava to debuff him or he'll enrage after 2 minutes"). Fighting the red dragon that roams over much of a certain island was one of the coolest experience I've had in gaming, and probably the BEST dragon kill ever (and trust me, I've killed a lot of dragons).
Why is it in Darkfall? It's a compromise. It's got PvE and PvP. It's got safe zones and war zones. Hell, even in the old DF other PLAYERS (not people watchign the game from the sidelines) complained that too much of the community was hiding in cities or PvEing high end mobs. Killing those high end mobs was high risk, high reward, and a ton of fun, even if/when you got killed, sometimes by other players.
PvPers have to compromise all the time. We play WoW. We play TOR. Hell, some of us play Animal Crossing (GUILTY!). But PvErs? Most of you see full PvP and you don't even give it a try, even if it's free. Hardcore PvP may be a smaller niche, but I think we've proven to be more compromising and loyal to our games than the PvE crew. After all, if PvE sandboxes like Istaria/Horizons, Ryzom, and Mabinogi aren't enough for you (the first two of which have been practically abandoned by players) after a few months, why would a new one be any more successful?
In most games it is true that nothing, or very little, can be learned from a higher level character or someone more advanced in the game just coming along and popping you.
But that isn't true for all games.
Some games offer opportunities for newer characters, characters outfitted for non-combat activities, or solo characters, etc.. to skillfully avoid those that seek them while still accomplishing their activities they are wishing to do. In Eve Online for example, one can get a lot accomplished in dangerous territory.
But in Eve one will most likely go through a lot of trial and error learning how to watch their scanner properly and read and interpret what is going on around them properly to avoid getting killed by those more numerous, advanced in skill, or well equipped than they.
It doesn't apply to every game, but it isn't necessarily universally true that a lowbie getting ganked by a highbie is something that can't be helped, and that there is nothing for the lowbie to learn from it. Eve is one example, the possibilities for game design are limitless.
Whoa, whoa... Eve far from being a poster boy of game design. It is practically plagued by design decisions that make little sense, and if they wanted to correct those, they would have to "pull a SOE" (=drastically change the game thus alienating the established playerbase). CCP has acknowledged this by saying along the lines of "There are some design decisions we are simply stuck with."
The directional scanner, in particular, is a nonsensical invention which, in any game released today, would update itself automatically and perhaps even give sound ques when combat probes are in the vicinity. It is poor UI design to force the player to manually update the scanner every few seconds. It is also one of those things that are needlessly complicated without offering any additional gameplay value.
Or maybe you meant that Eve offers many opportunities for improvement, which I could agree with: Eve definitely has a lot of room for improvement. And if you didn't mean that, I don't know what the hell you were talking about.
I can't disagree that Eve has many things which could be improved, i can't say you're wrong at all about any of that. (edit: rereading my post i'm not sure where you heard "poster boy of game design")
But,
Whether Eve Online is a well-designed game or not has no bearing on my point that there are possible systems in games that can be made such that a disadvantaged player can learn from an unfavorable encounter with a more advantaged player. This was the only point I consider of relevance to my post and the only one I would care to defend.
2. “Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.”
This makes it sound like you’re already a paying customer for a game and we’re pulling the rug out from under you. If a game is in development and you find out it has full PVP, you aren’t forced to do anything. You can simply play a different game. If you do play and get ganked, then you still made a conscious decision with regard to risk v.s. reward. And you lost. No one forced anything on you.
A lot of people trumpet against PvP in sandbox/park games is because they want to play the game but they dont like the PvP ruleset, period. It's not about forcing anything, they just simply want to play the game in question but the ruleset is not appealing, and your OP wont change that I guarantee you that.
Also you just sound like you are telling people "go play some other game" and you're not really dispelling anything. Since "they" want to play these exact sandboxes but without the PvP rules this post is kinda pointless if it's aimed at them.
The game is not sandbox anymore if the PvP is not a constant threat there and blah blah, it does not matter, they dont care if the game is not "(internet) officially" sandbox game anymore, they just want to play it without HC PvP.
Anyone's opinion about what a true sandbox is or "go play something else" wont change that, these people will come to your PvP sandbox game forums and keep saying how they want to play the game without PvP, you'll just have to learn to live with it, it's what they wish and they have the right to do so.
@point 6. I've always been a supporter of different server types and I think it's the right way to go. If the core game mechanics are cleverly designed I dont think it neccesarily has to be so difficult to have sort of "dry" versions of the PvP game servers as PvE servers. Just make them the "easymode" servers, perhaps let NPC's drop the stuff with lesser drop rates etc etc what you normally get through PvP in the "true" servers. It should not hurt the "true" servers in any way.
Thank you Bidwood for your opinions on PvP. They aren't anything more than opinions however, it's your take. The crux of PvP is that it gives freedom to players to affect the world around them, even each other. You are one person that I wish represented the whole PvP fanbase, but you don't.
Giving freedom to everyone means they can affect everyone. That's why it's not popular with that many and you can talk hypotheticals all you want but that's just stone-walling an argument before it even starts.
Why do people keep posting about having an MMORPG with FFA pvp?
If eve is so damn good at this why do people want another game to play, or why arent they just playing that?
I can turn the question around, Why do the PvE-ony people need to turn every game into WoW and not just play WoW or one of the gazillion triple A clones of WoW they keep getting three times a year?
I wish developers would finally start cloning EvE instead of the dreaded themepark concept with 0% immersion and total lack of realism. Silly flagging, different server types and invincible players, bah humbug.. it needs to stop, the market is flooded with this junk.
Hopefully EQ Next crashes all these silly paradigms.
There are inevitable debates that pop up during the development of high-profile, triple-A MMOs.
This purpose of this thread is to dispel the myths about full PVP that grow back like weeds every time you cut them down. Hopefully this thread helps some folks see the point of view of those who are waiting patiently for a triple-A game with full PVP.
So what is “full” PVP? Here are some of the defining characteristics:
PVP is “on” throughout the entire world. (No place is 100 per cent safe, although there can be some areas with strong protection like hi-sec in EVE.)
It's integrated with the other mature game systems in a meaningful way -- like the economy -- where everything from crafting to territory control are designed with PVP in mind. (Integration with other well-developed systems is where a lot of the indies fall short and why we need a triple-A title.)
It involves risk v.s. reward in a big way. Getting the best resources means venturing into unsafe/contested territories.
I may need to expand on the defining characteristics after other folks weigh in.
The myths
1. You just want to grief me.
This is the self-centered argument of someone who was scarred for life in Ultima Online a decade ago and can’t move on. We actually don’t care if you play the game. In fact, if you dislike full PVP then we hope you don’t play
2. “Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.”
This makes it sound like you’re already a paying customer for a game and we’re pulling the rug out from under you. If a game is in development and you find out it has full PVP, you aren’t forced to do anything. You can simply play a different game. If you do play and get ganked, then you still made a conscious decision with regard to risk v.s. reward. And you lost. No one forced anything on you.
3. It’s PVP v.s. PVE and people who enjoy PVP are a niche.
This creates sort of a false dichotomy where you’re looking at a niche of gamers – those who only want to PVP – and ignoring the huge market of folks who want to PVP AND PVE. So the most passionate arguments are usually between those who want ONLY full PVP and those who want ONLY PVE. Both of these are arguably niche, but then again League of Legends is the most played game in the world with only PVP.
4. Okay - but the majority of people want PVP on their terms.
How many triple-A MMOs with full PVP have they even been able to try in the last 15 years? Who's to say they would find a triple-A game with full PVP distasteful? Games like Darkfall don't count, because they don't have mature systems to integrate with the PVP.
5. The answer is simple: Just let people flag themselves for PVP when they want to engage in it.
Things go wrong when you take a game designed for full PVP and let people opt in/out whenever they want. Take, for example, the risk v.s. reward characteristic. Human nature compels us to get rewards using the path that involves as little risk as possible. Even people who love risk would be stupid not to turn PVP off because it puts them at a distinct tactical disadvantage. This is like Game Geenie or any number of other hacks and it would break any game designed with full PVP.
6. The answer is simple: Just implement PVP and non-PVP servers.
You might as well have two different games, because full PVP requires a dedicated dev team to succeed. Remember, it’s not just the ability to attack people. It’s the integration of PVP with other game systems and risk v.s. reward. While a game with dedicated full-service dev teams for each server type would be great for players, it could also hurt publishers’ return on investment.
7. Look around at the limited number of PVP servers on popular games. This is proof that the market for open-world PVP games is niche.
The only thing this proves is that gamers don’t like a server where a core game mechanic has been merely “turned on” as an afterthought to the game’s design. The PVP is often meaningless in these games because it isn’t “full” PVP and is essentially in its own vaccuum.
Okay, so that’s what I was able to come up with so far. I’ll probably refine this and come up with a “v 2.0” after all of the arguments are made.
Hope it is full pvp...but carebears love to ruin games with their loud qq in the forums.
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
On the flip side usually PvE content in PvP games is horrible. I think that's why it's true that you can't have PvP taken out of PvP centered MMOs. There's not enough content left.
Puffer Fish may be fine with that and don't care if there is anything for Carebears. Fair enough, just stop trying to convince PvEers that PvP is "better", "hardcore", "tougher", etc. It's not and though I want everyone to enjoy the type of game they like, I don't assume that everyone needs to play like me in order to "do it right".
I don't know about UW but Darkfall original was the shittiest buggiest macro-filled piece of crap MMORPG with a sub fee that I have ever played. That game had a wagonload full of issues before the subject of "FFA PvP" ever came to the table.
Originally posted by DocBrody
I can turn the question around, Why do the PvE-ony people need to turn every game into WoW and not just play WoW or one of the gazillion triple A clones of WoW they keep getting three times a year?
Most people are playing WoW, actually. It has the highest amount of players in it.
There are also tons of people who do not play WoW.
There are many people (myself included) who want Vanilla WoW, not modern WoW.
I honestly don't know many PvEers actually want modern games to mimick WoW. Source?
I wish developers would finally start cloning EvE.
Personally, I wish developers would start cloning SWG.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Hope it is full pvp...but carebears love to ruin games with their loud qq in the forums.
I hate getting ganked. I hate the whole culture surrounding PvP bragging rights. I find most PvPers lack imagination, have no tolerance for anyone or anything that doesn't see things exactly their way, and look at PvP as a kind of way to force people to respect them, though they hardly do anything respectable.
But despite all of that...
I'd be willing to play in an open-world, PvP game. I'd be willing to subject myself to ganks from time to time. I would, because I understand that while I personally don't find PvP and ganking appealing, they are probably appealing to someone. Who am I to say they can't have what they like?
Because I know the feeling. I play these games to RP. Most of what I do is chat in character, set up narrative plots, develop storylines, etc. And ever since 2003, I've been told that I don't deserve a game that fosters RP. I've been told that the "majority" hates RP, has no use for RP, hates the entire culture of RP as elitist, and look at RPers as people who want to force their game on the unwilling folks who just want to push a toon through a quest chain.
You PvPers think you are the only ones who've been told that you have no right to enjoy the things you like? Everybody, I mean everybody who truly loves these games has, at one point or another, had their fun curtailed or made harder because of the industry's desire to "not displease anybody." And as a result? We have games that don't please anybody...at least not for very long.
Now my opinion is this, so take it for what you will. If any of us--any of us--are going to have the opportunity to play anything more interesting than WoW ever again, we are going to have to start accommodating each other's preferences. And when I mean accommodate, I don't mean watering systems down. I think you PvPers have enough of the watered down PvP games that they've given you, just like I'm sick of all the watered down roleplay environments I've been given.
It means putting up with things we don't understand or like, so we can get the things we do like.
It means getting ganked every now and then, so we can get the economic game we want. It means getting mugged out in the field every now and then, so we can get the kind of RP and storytelling we want. It means getting inconvenienced every now and then, so we can get the kind of fun we aren't getting in the mainstream MMOs.
But this is a two way street...
PvPers, what are you going to put up with that you don't necessarily understand or like, so you can get your FFA PvP?
Are you going to RP? Are you going to take things like naming and IC/OOC protocols seriously? If you kill a priest or a beggar, are you willing to RP some sort of "bad spiritual mojo" that the mechanics cannot necessarily duplicate? If not, you haven't given the RPers any cause to buy into FFA PvP.
Are you alright in having career crafters be the economic power players they ought to be? Are you going to participate in commerce outside of your accounts and your guild? If not, and you want to make your clan self-sufficient and accountable to nobody, you haven't given merchants any incentive to buy into FFA PvP.
Are you alright in letting the wedding go unmolested? Or are you going to break in and kill everyone, simply because the mechanics give you the ability to do so? For the "lolz," more than any IC reason, most likely.
I understand why you need FFA PvP, and I understand why the consensual PvP isn't going to work for you. I get it, and frankly, if I had a damn fine game that gave me the things I want, I wouldn't care about the FFA PvP. But you are asking players a lot...a whole lot...when you ask them to sumbit to ganks. They ought to have a lot done for them in return.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Why do people keep posting about having an MMORPG with FFA pvp?
If eve is so damn good at this why do people want another game to play, or why arent they just playing that?
I can turn the question around, Why do the PvE-ony people need to turn every game into WoW and not just play WoW or one of the gazillion triple A clones of WoW they keep getting three times a year?
I wish developers would finally start cloning EvE instead of the dreaded themepark concept with 0% immersion and total lack of realism. Silly flagging, different server types and invincible players, bah humbug.. it needs to stop, the market is flooded with this junk.
Hopefully EQ Next crashes all these silly paradigms.
There is a reason why no one can really clone EVE, big developers want mass appeal, they need to pay back thier investors fast so they market the game as soemthing for everyone to get as many people they can to play.. then the game tanks. They try to mix pvp and progression making things very unbalanced which is normally a class rock/paper/scissors game class wise or who has better gear in similar class situations.
The reason why EVE has defied the odds of every mmo out there and has grown for the last 10 years is simple, they have never tried to sugar coat what that game is about, I once put in a ticket about a guy being an asshat for the hell of it, a gm told me "you know, this is eve, griefing is a valid game mechanic, maybe you should pay him back in kind"
Back when I played it even the pirates that killed you doing your missions weren't asshats, they were actually pretty nice and said hey, this is a dangerous area, you should be careful next time. I think it was EVE's 4 hour tutorial at the time that weened out the "casual griefers" as someone called them. EVE is a very harsh game, even for griefers because if they really piss you off you have a lot of tools at your disposal to ruin thier day.
I don't think modern FFA mmo's would be able to match EVE's community, gaming and the people that play it have changed to much to facilitate the cordiality that took the sting out of harsh pvp making people not want to do it.
About myth #2 if I hear of a developer creating a game, why wouldn't I tell them what I'd like, and what I'd spend money on...
Wouldn't you do the same?
Actually, what I'd really like to know is what IS a good PVP MMORPG? Warhammer, Aion, Darkfall (2), hell - even GW2 (3 pvp systems?!?) never seem to get the nod. All I ever hear about it UO and DaOC?
PVP seems to get a lot more love and dev time then crafting (my fav) or roleplaying... and your always seeing stuff being 'balanced' in patch notes (which never seems to work ? they 'balance' it again next patch...)
So what exactly would a 'good' pvp game be like? what would be different ? Are PVP systems really worse then they were 10+ years ago ? I'm really curious here - I'd hope that if crafting got half the attention pvp gets, we'd have some really awesome crafting systems by now.
While I do enjoy PVP and think EQN should have it, I also think it cannot simply be "open world full loot."
The OP is a classic of why this is. The demand is couched in terms that drip with hostile anticipation of noobs to gank. New players will be treated like applicants to a sadistic college fraternity. And concerns are dismissed since that means people just need to "toughen up." This makes MMOs sound like one of those "scared straight" boot camps, except here it is the adolescents terrorizing the adults.
No company that wants to build a customer base is going to go for a game design where one body of customers - the "hard core PVPers" is dedicated to making the rest of the customers miserable and perhaps even to drive them from the game.
Comments
You do have an option. Draw your weapon and defend yourself or get your corpse looted. If that sounds harsh, then get more friends. OW PvP means, if you are logged in and out in the games open world, you are consenting to PvP. It's as simple as that.
Solo play in OWPvP games is possible, but I haven't met too many long term solo players in EvE and even less in DF. It's possible to PLAY solo, but bc those companies designed the game to actually be played with other humans...sometimes people want to play with you, whether you like it or not.
There's always the option to not play the game, which apparently a lot of players choose.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Pretty sure he meant reading about ppl bemoaning not wanting to play OW PvP, not those that do in fact play in one.
Yeah, because WoW is representative of every single PvEer out there. People people are not complaining WoW is too easy left and right.
Because ganking miners is so hard and requires so much teamwork (LOL).
You do realize that games that are pure PvP competition (Dota-likes) have more people in them than even WoW does? Now what?
Burn.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
In regards to losing making one a better player:
In most games it is true that nothing, or very little, can be learned from a higher level character or someone more advanced in the game just coming along and popping you.
But that isn't true for all games.
Some games offer opportunities for newer characters, characters outfitted for non-combat activities, or solo characters, etc.. to skillfully avoid those that seek them while still accomplishing their activities they are wishing to do. In Eve Online for example, one can get a lot accomplished in dangerous territory.
But in Eve one will most likely go through a lot of trial and error learning how to watch their scanner properly and read and interpret what is going on around them properly to avoid getting killed by those more numerous, advanced in skill, or well equipped than they.
It doesn't apply to every game, but it isn't necessarily universally true that a lowbie getting ganked by a highbie is something that can't be helped, and that there is nothing for the lowbie to learn from it. Eve is one example, the possibilities for game design are limitless.
The issue isn't that people can't learn to deal with gankers, or that newbies don't have a chance, or whatever, the issue is that a lot of people jsut really have 0 care for that entire paradigm, and they do not want to play games that are as heavily PvP dominated. Especially since most of these games seem to be a Game of Thrones simulator. Why can't you make a game where PvP is rare and gravely punished, like in the civilized world? Or why not make a game that simulates a society that doesn't even exist? What the hell is up with all this "grit", you don't have enough with the news?
Many people play a game to get away from grittiness not get into it, and your dog-eat-dog worlds are bland and boring to them.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
If you're going to take anything from this thread, CactusJack, take that. If people can't choose in the game, they will choose outside the game. Their choice is to not to buy.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Which is what I've stated all along. If you are unhappy with a game, then don't sub to it. I concur.
If people complain about OW PvP and then sub to one...I think they should follow that advice. I don't sub to LOTRO bc it's not my type of game. I don't go on and on upset that they didn't make Middle Earth an Open World PvP environment. I either accept it or not. Here's my cc number or "cancel your sub" button are my choices.
It's why these types of threads never go anywhere...some people are just seeking different things in their game experience.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
a few points
people are indeed complaining wow is too easy.
and ganking miners, well there was that, but that was only part of it back in the day, i killed far more wanna be heros than miners, and when i myself got ganked, i got back on the horse. the miners were the people that despite the warnings, went out unarmed into the wilderness , then got upset when they were killed.
this whole topic is very contentious , meat eaters vs vegans, heres a few quotes from the meat eaters of our times:
The tendency to whining and complaining may be taken as the surest sign symptom of little souls and inferior intellects.
You don't make progress by standing on the sidelines, whimpering and complaining.
Complainers change their complaints, but they never reduce the amount of time spent in complaining.
and my favorite:
Everyone has to make their own decisions. I still believe in that. You just have to be able to accept the consequences without complaining.
cheers
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
Whoa, whoa... Eve far from being a poster boy of game design. It is practically plagued by design decisions that make little sense, and if they wanted to correct those, they would have to "pull a SOE" (=drastically change the game thus alienating the established playerbase). CCP has acknowledged this by saying along the lines of "There are some design decisions we are simply stuck with."
The directional scanner, in particular, is a nonsensical invention which, in any game released today, would update itself automatically and perhaps even give sound ques when combat probes are in the vicinity. It is poor UI design to force the player to manually update the scanner every few seconds. It is also one of those things that are needlessly complicated without offering any additional gameplay value.
Or maybe you meant that Eve offers many opportunities for improvement, which I could agree with: Eve definitely has a lot of room for improvement. And if you didn't mean that, I don't know what the hell you were talking about.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Whoa there, buddy. Let's not pretend, even jokingly, that open world PVPers are "pro" by any stretch.
MMORPG PVP is casual PVP. Normal (non-MMO) PVP games involve little to no non-skill elements, while MMORPG PVP involves progression and "full PVP" (eg open world PVP) involves even more. Non-skill elements in PVP are training wheels to aid an unskilled player in experiencing victory.
The less that casual PVPers get called "pro", even jokingly, the better. The training wheels already inflate these players' egos enough without it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Been playing MMOs for... god, 14 years now I think, and this is pretty much what I've experienced (I don't agree with all of it, especially discounting DF). To the "PvE" camp, there ARE 100% FFA PvP games- they're called "shooters." You want compromise? Try playing Darkfall. The AI is (usually) much more intelligent than most "AAA" games, and doesn't use gimmicks (i.e. "You need to tank him in the lava to debuff him or he'll enrage after 2 minutes"). Fighting the red dragon that roams over much of a certain island was one of the coolest experience I've had in gaming, and probably the BEST dragon kill ever (and trust me, I've killed a lot of dragons).
Why is it in Darkfall? It's a compromise. It's got PvE and PvP. It's got safe zones and war zones. Hell, even in the old DF other PLAYERS (not people watchign the game from the sidelines) complained that too much of the community was hiding in cities or PvEing high end mobs. Killing those high end mobs was high risk, high reward, and a ton of fun, even if/when you got killed, sometimes by other players.
PvPers have to compromise all the time. We play WoW. We play TOR. Hell, some of us play Animal Crossing (GUILTY!). But PvErs? Most of you see full PvP and you don't even give it a try, even if it's free. Hardcore PvP may be a smaller niche, but I think we've proven to be more compromising and loyal to our games than the PvE crew. After all, if PvE sandboxes like Istaria/Horizons, Ryzom, and Mabinogi aren't enough for you (the first two of which have been practically abandoned by players) after a few months, why would a new one be any more successful?
I can't disagree that Eve has many things which could be improved, i can't say you're wrong at all about any of that. (edit: rereading my post i'm not sure where you heard "poster boy of game design")
But,
Whether Eve Online is a well-designed game or not has no bearing on my point that there are possible systems in games that can be made such that a disadvantaged player can learn from an unfavorable encounter with a more advantaged player. This was the only point I consider of relevance to my post and the only one I would care to defend.
A lot of people trumpet against PvP in sandbox/park games is because they want to play the game but they dont like the PvP ruleset, period. It's not about forcing anything, they just simply want to play the game in question but the ruleset is not appealing, and your OP wont change that I guarantee you that.
Also you just sound like you are telling people "go play some other game" and you're not really dispelling anything. Since "they" want to play these exact sandboxes but without the PvP rules this post is kinda pointless if it's aimed at them.
The game is not sandbox anymore if the PvP is not a constant threat there and blah blah, it does not matter, they dont care if the game is not "(internet) officially" sandbox game anymore, they just want to play it without HC PvP.
Anyone's opinion about what a true sandbox is or "go play something else" wont change that, these people will come to your PvP sandbox game forums and keep saying how they want to play the game without PvP, you'll just have to learn to live with it, it's what they wish and they have the right to do so.
@point 6. I've always been a supporter of different server types and I think it's the right way to go. If the core game mechanics are cleverly designed I dont think it neccesarily has to be so difficult to have sort of "dry" versions of the PvP game servers as PvE servers. Just make them the "easymode" servers, perhaps let NPC's drop the stuff with lesser drop rates etc etc what you normally get through PvP in the "true" servers. It should not hurt the "true" servers in any way.
Giving freedom to everyone means they can affect everyone. That's why it's not popular with that many and you can talk hypotheticals all you want but that's just stone-walling an argument before it even starts.
I can turn the question around, Why do the PvE-ony people need to turn every game into WoW and not just play WoW or one of the gazillion triple A clones of WoW they keep getting three times a year?
I wish developers would finally start cloning EvE instead of the dreaded themepark concept with 0% immersion and total lack of realism. Silly flagging, different server types and invincible players, bah humbug.. it needs to stop, the market is flooded with this junk.
Hopefully EQ Next crashes all these silly paradigms.
Hope it is full pvp...but carebears love to ruin games with their loud qq in the forums.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
so true. PvPvE players might kill players AND NPC, but PvE-only players kill games. Their victim list is long and gruesome.
On the flip side usually PvE content in PvP games is horrible. I think that's why it's true that you can't have PvP taken out of PvP centered MMOs. There's not enough content left.
Puffer Fish may be fine with that and don't care if there is anything for Carebears. Fair enough, just stop trying to convince PvEers that PvP is "better", "hardcore", "tougher", etc. It's not and though I want everyone to enjoy the type of game they like, I don't assume that everyone needs to play like me in order to "do it right".
I don't know about UW but Darkfall original was the shittiest buggiest macro-filled piece of crap MMORPG with a sub fee that I have ever played. That game had a wagonload full of issues before the subject of "FFA PvP" ever came to the table.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
I hate getting ganked. I hate the whole culture surrounding PvP bragging rights. I find most PvPers lack imagination, have no tolerance for anyone or anything that doesn't see things exactly their way, and look at PvP as a kind of way to force people to respect them, though they hardly do anything respectable.
But despite all of that...
I'd be willing to play in an open-world, PvP game. I'd be willing to subject myself to ganks from time to time. I would, because I understand that while I personally don't find PvP and ganking appealing, they are probably appealing to someone. Who am I to say they can't have what they like?
Because I know the feeling. I play these games to RP. Most of what I do is chat in character, set up narrative plots, develop storylines, etc. And ever since 2003, I've been told that I don't deserve a game that fosters RP. I've been told that the "majority" hates RP, has no use for RP, hates the entire culture of RP as elitist, and look at RPers as people who want to force their game on the unwilling folks who just want to push a toon through a quest chain.
You PvPers think you are the only ones who've been told that you have no right to enjoy the things you like? Everybody, I mean everybody who truly loves these games has, at one point or another, had their fun curtailed or made harder because of the industry's desire to "not displease anybody." And as a result? We have games that don't please anybody...at least not for very long.
Now my opinion is this, so take it for what you will. If any of us--any of us--are going to have the opportunity to play anything more interesting than WoW ever again, we are going to have to start accommodating each other's preferences. And when I mean accommodate, I don't mean watering systems down. I think you PvPers have enough of the watered down PvP games that they've given you, just like I'm sick of all the watered down roleplay environments I've been given.
It means putting up with things we don't understand or like, so we can get the things we do like.
It means getting ganked every now and then, so we can get the economic game we want. It means getting mugged out in the field every now and then, so we can get the kind of RP and storytelling we want. It means getting inconvenienced every now and then, so we can get the kind of fun we aren't getting in the mainstream MMOs.
But this is a two way street...
PvPers, what are you going to put up with that you don't necessarily understand or like, so you can get your FFA PvP?
Are you going to RP? Are you going to take things like naming and IC/OOC protocols seriously? If you kill a priest or a beggar, are you willing to RP some sort of "bad spiritual mojo" that the mechanics cannot necessarily duplicate? If not, you haven't given the RPers any cause to buy into FFA PvP.
Are you alright in having career crafters be the economic power players they ought to be? Are you going to participate in commerce outside of your accounts and your guild? If not, and you want to make your clan self-sufficient and accountable to nobody, you haven't given merchants any incentive to buy into FFA PvP.
Are you alright in letting the wedding go unmolested? Or are you going to break in and kill everyone, simply because the mechanics give you the ability to do so? For the "lolz," more than any IC reason, most likely.
I understand why you need FFA PvP, and I understand why the consensual PvP isn't going to work for you. I get it, and frankly, if I had a damn fine game that gave me the things I want, I wouldn't care about the FFA PvP. But you are asking players a lot...a whole lot...when you ask them to sumbit to ganks. They ought to have a lot done for them in return.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
There is a reason why no one can really clone EVE, big developers want mass appeal, they need to pay back thier investors fast so they market the game as soemthing for everyone to get as many people they can to play.. then the game tanks. They try to mix pvp and progression making things very unbalanced which is normally a class rock/paper/scissors game class wise or who has better gear in similar class situations.
The reason why EVE has defied the odds of every mmo out there and has grown for the last 10 years is simple, they have never tried to sugar coat what that game is about, I once put in a ticket about a guy being an asshat for the hell of it, a gm told me "you know, this is eve, griefing is a valid game mechanic, maybe you should pay him back in kind"
Back when I played it even the pirates that killed you doing your missions weren't asshats, they were actually pretty nice and said hey, this is a dangerous area, you should be careful next time. I think it was EVE's 4 hour tutorial at the time that weened out the "casual griefers" as someone called them. EVE is a very harsh game, even for griefers because if they really piss you off you have a lot of tools at your disposal to ruin thier day.
I don't think modern FFA mmo's would be able to match EVE's community, gaming and the people that play it have changed to much to facilitate the cordiality that took the sting out of harsh pvp making people not want to do it.
About myth #2 if I hear of a developer creating a game, why wouldn't I tell them what I'd like, and what I'd spend money on...
Wouldn't you do the same?
Actually, what I'd really like to know is what IS a good PVP MMORPG? Warhammer, Aion, Darkfall (2), hell - even GW2 (3 pvp systems?!?) never seem to get the nod. All I ever hear about it UO and DaOC?
PVP seems to get a lot more love and dev time then crafting (my fav) or roleplaying... and your always seeing stuff being 'balanced' in patch notes (which never seems to work ? they 'balance' it again next patch...)
So what exactly would a 'good' pvp game be like? what would be different ? Are PVP systems really worse then they were 10+ years ago ? I'm really curious here - I'd hope that if crafting got half the attention pvp gets, we'd have some really awesome crafting systems by now.
While I do enjoy PVP and think EQN should have it, I also think it cannot simply be "open world full loot."
The OP is a classic of why this is. The demand is couched in terms that drip with hostile anticipation of noobs to gank. New players will be treated like applicants to a sadistic college fraternity. And concerns are dismissed since that means people just need to "toughen up." This makes MMOs sound like one of those "scared straight" boot camps, except here it is the adolescents terrorizing the adults.
No company that wants to build a customer base is going to go for a game design where one body of customers - the "hard core PVPers" is dedicated to making the rest of the customers miserable and perhaps even to drive them from the game.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.