Evaluating the Grails

kevinjr

SOE didn’t spend a lot of time discussing traditional game components during the EQN reveal.  Instead they focused on speaking about their five holy grails that they think will revolutionize the MMO scene.  I thought it would be interesting to discuss the potential of these ideas. 

Multi-Classing

I will be honest, I really like the traditional leveling model.  I like to have well defined roles in a party.  I can relate with a rogue, warrior, mage, or cleric.  I also like the identity a class like a Beast Master or Bard brings to the game.  The idea of having a smorgasbord of classes wrapped into one character isn’t appealing to me.  I don’t want a healing/nuking tanks with a lion for a pet.  Especially since obligatory easy respecs that means that guy is a plate mail wearing druid/bard the next day. I am also skeptical that chasing new classes and skills will replace the incentive that leveling up adds.

I remember my EQ1 Druid very differently than my Paladin.  My best friends Wizard was very different then his Warrior.  We still talk about the game and we speak about the characters by name.  I also remember the pride of my guy being able to do something his guy couldn’t.  Those guys had identity.  I think a lot of that gets lost in a system of unlimited hybrids that change their class combination every second Wednesday. 

That said EQN isn’t the first one to try this.  GW2, Final Fantasy, and the Secret World have all used some combination of multi-classing and/or weapon based skills with some degree of success so I am willing to keep an open mind.   If EQN continues to give incentives to chase after classes and level skills and if they make sure each skill is actually worthwhile then perhaps there will remain an incentive to keep ‘leveling’ and characters can maintain their own identity. 

Destructible Environments

Am I the only one not excited about destructible environments? Don’t get me wrong.  I think the concept has potential.   It adds a new dimension to combat.  Special effects like the stone golem knocking down trees and destroying the wall are cool.   But I see this as a huge investment in resources given the return.  Red Faction isn’t a better game than Bioshock because of destructible terrain.  I have trouble seeing this as more than a gimmick and a distraction  in the long run.  I think it introduces a lot of opportunity for griefing, exploits, bugs, etc.  This could get old after the initial cool factor wears off. 

However, if SOE plays their cards right and uses this as more than a combat gimmick it could be a game changer.  For example: moving from a traditional resource node based gathering system to one where you actually dig tunnels for ore and chop down trees for wood. 

Permanent Change

In essence SOE is promising epic long term public quests leading to meaningful permanent change.  There is nothing wrong with that.  It really comes down with SOE ability to realize the potential and keep the content coming routinely enough that it stays a core part of the game.  Rebuilding Halas was an example given by SOE.  I think that is a great one.  I would love to see some with multiple possible outcomes.  For example a battle with the Orc army with success of adding guard towers and patrols to a region and a failure of damage to a major city (for example).

Emergent AI

I don’t think we are going to see a hundred new MMOs with destructible terrain.  It is a big deal, but it doesn’t change the landscape of MMOs.  But If this is delivered correctly this will change the landscape.  Not so much because Orc’s can be driven from the woods but because of what that means to player tasks. 

WoW set the trend with ugly exclamation marks above quest givers heads and changed the way MMOs are played.  EQN is challenging the quest grind mechanics by building a world that changes creating new challenges for the players.  The trick will be delivering this in a way that is intuitive and fun.  Hate the WoW hate grind if you want but it gave players something to do.  EQN needs to replace that with something else to do that will fill hundreds of hours to each player.  Tough, but if they succeed this could be truly revolutionary. 

A Life of Consequence

Very little information on this so far (as far as I know).  Many games have promised this without really accomplishing anything (i.e. TOR).  But EQN has some big ideas so I will wait and see what they have to offer.  

Summary

At the end of the day some of the above ideas have the opportunity to change the face of this as MMOs.  But SOE still needs to prove they can deliver on the big ideas.  

There also needs to be a great game built on these ideas.  Many have expressed concerns on the first impression of the graphic style and the action based combat. 

I remain a bit skeptical on some of the ideas as well as SOE's ability to deliver on the big scope.  I also didn't like what little we saw on the game built on top of the ideas.  But I am rooting for SOE because if they do pull it off they could have an industry changing game on their hands.  

azarhal

I'm existed to start digging, but it might be because I play(ed) Minecraft and I know what to expect. "Destroying" isn't all about combat, they really went the Minecraft way. This mean, "destroying" is about gathering material. There are no nodes in the world. You need wood, you'll have to chop a tree with an wood axe. You need ore, you'll have to dig to find some with a pickaxe.

Also, EQNext life of consequence isn't like SWTOR quest choices&consequences (or lack of it). It's a different concept all together. In EQN, your actions (killing mobs, helping princesses, etc) influence how the world see you. It seems like they tied the faction system of previous Everquest games into the Storybricks AI.

So if you kills a lots of Orcs and stop their efforts, you're going to be hated by Orcs, but on the opposite if you try to help them and be there friends, they are going to like you...but lots of other people will hate you.  In both case, you might lose/gain access to class trainers, shops, etc.  I see this as the game enforcing role-playing personally.

 

 

arieste

I think the grails are all fantastic.  These are solid concepts and the place where EQN is going to shine.

 

I may even put up with having to play a disney cartoon character through a whole bunch of gw2-like antisocial combat just to see these in action.  May.  It's hard to say of the tradeoff is worth it.

 

They're doing some of the things i've wanted to see in an MMO for years.  But it looks like crap visually and they're also doing some stuff that I've seen and don't want to see again (GW2 type combat and encounters).

 

And then there is something stuff that's in the middle... like the progression system.  It sounds most similar to TSW and I rather liked how it worked on TSW - combining all those different weapon and class abilities.   TSW's system was pretty deep with skills comboing on multiple levels across classes, hopefully EQN's is just as complex. 

 

 

DSWBeef

I honestly loved all these so called grails.

Multi Classing

I love the idea of multiclassing. Why cant someone makes a warrior with a lion as a pet? Remember this is a mmoRPG. ROLEPLAYING GAME. If someone wants to roleplay as a thief with light dark magic then more power to them. This allows for lots of variety among players which is IMO a very good thing.

Destructible Environments

TBH this is something I think all games with combat should have. There was this PS3 game a couple years back called MAG which had 3 faction shooter pvp on a massive scale. Only reason I liked BFBC2 over it was because of the destructible environments. People have argued that the community will just destroy everything, Dave said that some parts may be immune and other will repair over a couple of days or even minutes. This adds whole new combat mechanics, such as destroying a bridge filled with orcs or causing a landslide on a canyon filled with skeletons.

Permanent Change

Depending on how this is done it has the potential to be a real game changer. The idea that one Servers Norrath is different then anothers is really exciting. One server a town is built up into a sprawling city while another it was abandoned to the undead. Its extremely exciting if this works in theory.

Emergent AI

This is another thing that could be a potential game changer. This makes the world feel alive. Destroy the artifact causing the undead to rise in a cave making the local necromancer take revenge on the town near by sounds legit. Again if it works in theory it will be a change of epic proportions.

kevinjr

Originally posted by azarhal

I'm existed to start digging, but it might be because I play(ed) Minecraft and I know what to expect. "Destroying" isn't all about combat, they really went the Minecraft way. This mean, "destroying" is about gathering material. There are no nodes in the world. You need wood, you'll have to chop a tree with an wood axe. You need ore, you'll have to dig to find some with a pickaxe.

Also, EQNext life of consequence isn't like SWTOR quest choices&consequences (or lack of it). It's a different concept all together. In EQN, your actions (killing mobs, helping princesses, etc) influence how the world see you. It seems like they tied the faction system of previous Everquest games into the Storybricks AI.

So if you kills a lots of Orcs and stop their efforts, you're going to be hated by Orcs, but on the opposite if you try to help them and be there friends, they are going to like you...but lots of other people will hate you.  In both case, you might lose/gain access to class trainers, shops, etc.  I see this as the game enforcing role-playing personally.

 

 

 

is it confirmed somewhere that is how gathering works?  Or is that an assumption?  I haven't seen anything on crafting / gathering except it is supposed to be more in depth then SWG.  I could have missed it though.  

Scorp2778

I don't believe players will changes roles all that frequently if the tiered gear system is designed properly. If I decided to be a sneaky backstabbing rogue and work up to tier 3 than I would think twice before deciding that I would ratherer be a mage that can hurl fireballs. They said that gear will benefit specific abilities. If the gear is a challenge to attain than players will need to make a serious investment to change roles. After awhile I imagine there will be more characters that can switch freely but how quickly players get to that point depends on the design decision of how challenging gear will be to attain. How they design the skill system will impact this too. I didn't see anything really that described how skills will be worked, only that they will need worked to improve. If they went with a UO style base 100 skill system(Which i highly doubt), and made skills take as long to master as UO than it wouldn't be an issue much at all. Only time will tell.

Sahrhyn

Personally, I fail how to see any gamer could not be excited for this game.

I am interest in all the grails - but I am most interested in the emergent AI.  If they implement this well, it will forever change game play for MMO's and games in general.  I believe they can do it.  If they do it well enough, the military may be calling them - skynet anyone?

No one thought a computer could beat the Grand Master in chess. 

No one thought a computer could beat Ken Jennings in Jeopardy.

No one thought an emergent AI could kick our ass in a raid.... /hmm

 

 

Daaken

Originally posted by arieste

I think the grails are all fantastic.  These are solid concepts and the place where EQN is going to shine.

 

I may even put up with having to play a disney cartoon character through a whole bunch of gw2-like antisocial combat just to see these in action.  May.  It's hard to say of the tradeoff is worth it.

 

They're doing some of the things i've wanted to see in an MMO for years.  But it looks like crap visually and they're also doing some stuff that I've seen and don't want to see again (GW2 type combat and encounters).

 

And then there is something stuff that's in the middle... like the progression system.  It sounds most similar to TSW and I rather liked how it worked on TSW - combining all those different weapon and class abilities.   TSW's system was pretty deep with skills comboing on multiple levels across classes, hopefully EQN's is just as complex. 

 

 

Indeed.  Those grails are exactly what many of us have been wanting for a very long time.  It's nice to see a studio take the plunge and implement them into a game I can truly say I'll love regardless what comes next in the development process. 

 

It may not have the style or the panache I would of wanted by by god, I'll not let some little thing like graphics, removal of the trinity or multi classing get in the way of a truly revolutionary process.

kevinjr

Originally posted by Sahrhyn

Personally, I fail how to see any gamer could not be excited for this game.

I am interest in all the grails - but I am most interested in the emergent AI.  If they implement this well, it will forever change game play for MMO's and games in general.  I believe they can do it.  If they do it well enough, the military may be calling them - skynet anyone?

No one thought a computer could beat the Grand Master in chess. 

No one thought a computer could beat Ken Jennings in Jeopardy.

No one thought an emergent AI could kick our ass in a raid.... /hmm

 

 

I think some degree of skeptism is appropriate.  SOE has been intentionally vague on the details.  That has lead people to come to their own conclusions on what is coming.  

There is destructible terrain so that means there will be Minecraft level interaction with the world.  They are implementing a changing world so that means that servers will be significantly different.  Etc.  

I don't remember the last hyped MMO that realized the hype.  Most of them didn't have the big ideas that EQN has.  Chances are many of the grails won't turn out as well as fans are thinking they will.  

dandurin

For me they have one grail and three "design directions".

 

The "black-box" secret they've been hiding is obviously the voxel engine.  That's what they wanted to have a jump on the competition on.

 

The other 3 grails are just promises, they've demoed literally nothing.

 

I'm not saying I don't like the other 3 grails, or that they won't achieve them, in fact quite the opposite.  It's just if they really cared about them they'd have kept them under wraps longer, until they were almost done and really had something to demo.

 

 

Khebeln

Originally posted by kevinjr

SOE didn’t spend a lot of time discussing traditional game components during the EQN reveal.  Instead they focused on speaking about their five holy grails that they think will revolutionize the MMO scene.  I thought it would be interesting to discuss the potential of these ideas. 

Multi-Classing

I will be honest, I really like the traditional leveling model.  I like to have well defined roles in a party.  I can relate with a rogue, warrior, mage, or cleric.  I also like the identity a class like a Beast Master or Bard brings to the game.  The idea of having a smorgasbord of classes wrapped into one character isn’t appealing to me.  I don’t want a healing/nuking tanks with a lion for a pet.  Especially since obligatory easy respecs that means that guy is a plate mail wearing druid/bard the next day. I am also skeptical that chasing new classes and skills will replace the incentive that leveling up adds.

I remember my EQ1 Druid very differently than my Paladin.  My best friends Wizard was very different then his Warrior.  We still talk about the game and we speak about the characters by name.  I also remember the pride of my guy being able to do something his guy couldn’t.  Those guys had identity.  I think a lot of that gets lost in a system of unlimited hybrids that change their class combination every second Wednesday. 

That said EQN isn’t the first one to try this.  GW2, Final Fantasy, and the Secret World have all used some combination of multi-classing and/or weapon based skills with some degree of success so I am willing to keep an open mind.   If EQN continues to give incentives to chase after classes and level skills and if they make sure each skill is actually worthwhile then perhaps there will remain an incentive to keep ‘leveling’ and characters can maintain their own identity. 

Destructible Environments

Am I the only one not excited about destructible environments? Don’t get me wrong.  I think the concept has potential.   It adds a new dimension to combat.  Special effects like the stone golem knocking down trees and destroying the wall are cool.   But I see this as a huge investment in resources given the return.  Red Faction isn’t a better game than Bioshock because of destructible terrain.  I have trouble seeing this as more than a gimmick and a distraction  in the long run.  I think it introduces a lot of opportunity for griefing, exploits, bugs, etc.  This could get old after the initial cool factor wears off. 

However, if SOE plays their cards right and uses this as more than a combat gimmick it could be a game changer.  For example: moving from a traditional resource node based gathering system to one where you actually dig tunnels for ore and chop down trees for wood. 

Permanent Change

In essence SOE is promising epic long term public quests leading to meaningful permanent change.  There is nothing wrong with that.  It really comes down with SOE ability to realize the potential and keep the content coming routinely enough that it stays a core part of the game.  Rebuilding Halas was an example given by SOE.  I think that is a great one.  I would love to see some with multiple possible outcomes.  For example a battle with the Orc army with success of adding guard towers and patrols to a region and a failure of damage to a major city (for example).

Emergent AI

I don’t think we are going to see a hundred new MMOs with destructible terrain.  It is a big deal, but it doesn’t change the landscape of MMOs.  But If this is delivered correctly this will change the landscape.  Not so much because Orc’s can be driven from the woods but because of what that means to player tasks. 

WoW set the trend with ugly exclamation marks above quest givers heads and changed the way MMOs are played.  EQN is challenging the quest grind mechanics by building a world that changes creating new challenges for the players.  The trick will be delivering this in a way that is intuitive and fun.  Hate the WoW hate grind if you want but it gave players something to do.  EQN needs to replace that with something else to do that will fill hundreds of hours to each player.  Tough, but if they succeed this could be truly revolutionary. 

A Life of Consequence

Very little information on this so far (as far as I know).  Many games have promised this without really accomplishing anything (i.e. TOR).  But EQN has some big ideas so I will wait and see what they have to offer.  

Summary

At the end of the day some of the above ideas have the opportunity to change the face of this as MMOs.  But SOE still needs to prove they can deliver on the big ideas.  

There also needs to be a great game built on these ideas.  Many have expressed concerns on the first impression of the graphic style and the action based combat. 

I remain a bit skeptical on some of the ideas as well as SOE's ability to deliver on the big scope.  I also didn't like what little we saw on the game built on top of the ideas.  But I am rooting for SOE because if they do pull it off they could have an industry changing game on their hands.  

I think if you dont like it play something else that is a lightly heated up clone. For once they try something new that many of us that play mmos since the very begining and even before that played p&p games.

I love everything they said about the game apart from few things that are still iffy like how many skills can you really use during the combat (not out of combat switching to other class)

Sahrhyn

Originally posted by kevinjr

Originally posted by Sahrhyn

Personally, I fail how to see any gamer could not be excited for this game.

I am interest in all the grails - but I am most interested in the emergent AI.  If they implement this well, it will forever change game play for MMO's and games in general.  I believe they can do it.  If they do it well enough, the military may be calling them - skynet anyone?

No one thought a computer could beat the Grand Master in chess. 

No one thought a computer could beat Ken Jennings in Jeopardy.

No one thought an emergent AI could kick our ass in a raid.... /hmm

 

 

I think some degree of skeptism is appropriate.  SOE has been intentionally vague on the details.  That has lead people to come to their own conclusions on what is coming.  

There is destructible terrain so that means there will be Minecraft level interaction with the world.  They are implementing a changing world so that means that servers will be significantly different.  Etc.  

I don't remember the last hyped MMO that realized the hype.  Most of them didn't have the big ideas that EQN has.  Chances are many of the grails won't turn out as well as fans are thinking they will.  

Everquest was a game that lived up to the hype... believe it or not, some did not want MUD's to be "dumbed" down by supporting a graphical world.  Hard to fathom that now.

kevinjr

Originally posted by Sahrhyn

Originally posted by kevinjr

Originally posted by Sahrhyn

Personally, I fail how to see any gamer could not be excited for this game.

I am interest in all the grails - but I am most interested in the emergent AI.  If they implement this well, it will forever change game play for MMO's and games in general.  I believe they can do it.  If they do it well enough, the military may be calling them - skynet anyone?

No one thought a computer could beat the Grand Master in chess. 

No one thought a computer could beat Ken Jennings in Jeopardy.

No one thought an emergent AI could kick our ass in a raid.... /hmm

 

 

I think some degree of skeptism is appropriate.  SOE has been intentionally vague on the details.  That has lead people to come to their own conclusions on what is coming.  

There is destructible terrain so that means there will be Minecraft level interaction with the world.  They are implementing a changing world so that means that servers will be significantly different.  Etc.  

I don't remember the last hyped MMO that realized the hype.  Most of them didn't have the big ideas that EQN has.  Chances are many of the grails won't turn out as well as fans are thinking they will.  

Everquest was a game that lived up to the hype... believe it or not, some did not want MUD's to be "dumbed" down by supporting a graphical world.  Hard to fathom that now.

EQ2 and SWG are two that didn't

kevinjr

Originally posted by Khebeln

I think if you dont like it play something else that is a lightly heated up clone. For once they try something new that many of us that play mmos since the very begining and even before that played p&p games.

I love everything they said about the game apart from few things that are still iffy like how many skills can you really use during the combat (not out of combat switching to other class)

A tad defensive?  

Khebeln

Originally posted by kevinjr

Originally posted by Sahrhyn

Originally posted by kevinjr

Originally posted by Sahrhyn

Personally, I fail how to see any gamer could not be excited for this game.

I am interest in all the grails - but I am most interested in the emergent AI.  If they implement this well, it will forever change game play for MMO's and games in general.  I believe they can do it.  If they do it well enough, the military may be calling them - skynet anyone?

No one thought a computer could beat the Grand Master in chess. 

No one thought a computer could beat Ken Jennings in Jeopardy.

No one thought an emergent AI could kick our ass in a raid.... /hmm

 

 

I think some degree of skeptism is appropriate.  SOE has been intentionally vague on the details.  That has lead people to come to their own conclusions on what is coming.  

There is destructible terrain so that means there will be Minecraft level interaction with the world.  They are implementing a changing world so that means that servers will be significantly different.  Etc.  

I don't remember the last hyped MMO that realized the hype.  Most of them didn't have the big ideas that EQN has.  Chances are many of the grails won't turn out as well as fans are thinking they will.  

Everquest was a game that lived up to the hype... believe it or not, some did not want MUD's to be "dumbed" down by supporting a graphical world.  Hard to fathom that now.

EQ2 and SWG are two that didn't

Its much easier to name ones that did live up to the hype, or even where underestimated. Majority of mmos (and i talk here 95%) never lives up to the hype.

Its only a matter of how badly they fail hype wise.