Why EQNext Combat > Trinity

Avicious

I'm sitting here wondering, first of all, how many will read the title alone, and post their inflammatory response, but I ask you, please hear me out.

Even though I LOVE the Trinity, EQNext Combat will be better than the Trinity.  And here's why:

 Dynamic/Reactive AI Scripting 

If combat is ANYTHING like the rest of the game, the Combat scripting will PROBABLY be dynamic and reactive, instead of a preset script.  SOE seems VERY confident about the combat.  

What I *THINK* we're going to see, are mobs that REACT to the group and the players, according to what they're doing.  If the healing is preventing the mob of making any dent in the group, then the mob goes after the healer, to at least interrupt him/her.  (Yes, we don't know how much there will be dedicated healing, but hypothetically.)

If the Scout keeps interrupting the mobs spell casts, the mob attempts to knock the Scout back 15 feet.

 

While I think that SOE needs to elaborate on what their combat system *really* is, I think what they're trying to say is:

We're not going to have a Trinity, because it's OLD technology.  Our combat system is *BETTER* than the trinity, because of its reactive and dynamic AI.

Grimlock426

The trinity already offered that by way of tight threat windows.  The problem is that now a days developers have made it so that thread barely matters.  DPS can go crazy right off the bat.  Healers can spam heals with impunity.  To me this is the "dumbing" down of the genre.

Back in vanilla WoW there was an unwritten rule that you did not attack as DPS until the tank had 2-3 sunder armors on the mob...period.  If you attacked before then you'd pull threat and probably get one-shotted.  The same applied to the healer.  If you tried to bust out your biggest heal right out of the gate you probably pulled aggro and were in deep trouble.

While the AI might not have been that smart, it did give the impression the monsters were going after the biggest threat.  You blow your big DPS...the moster is hurt and feels it and comes to kick your butt.  You heal the tank to full right off the bat, oh the moster sees that and does not want you doing that so he goes after you. 

It's just that now a days there is virtually no such thing as threat.  Tanks round up packs of mobs with little effort and the DPS just AOE's them down while the healer spams heals.  It makes is seem easy, and makes it appear that the 'trinity' is broken when that is not the case at all, it's the fact that the developers have dumbed it down so that it 'appears' there is something wrong with the trinity and that it needed to be fixed.

drh3010

Since it's all DPS, within a month the player base will figure out the perfect 8 skills to produce the maximum DPS and that will become the build everyone uses.

Telondariel

Originally posted by Avicious

I'm sitting here wondering, first of all, how many will read the title alone, and post their inflammatory response, but I ask you, please hear me out.

Even though I LOVE the Trinity, EQNext Combat will be better than the Trinity.  And here's why:

 Dynamic/Reactive AI Scripting 

If combat is ANYTHING like the rest of the game, the Combat scripting will PROBABLY be dynamic and reactive, instead of a preset script.  SOE seems VERY confident about the combat.  

What I *THINK* we're going to see, are mobs that REACT to the group and the players, according to what they're doing.  If the healing is preventing the mob of making any dent in the group, then the mob goes after the healer, to at least interrupt him/her.  (Yes, we don't know how much there will be dedicated healing, but hypothetically.)

If the Scout keeps interrupting the mobs spell casts, the mob attempts to knock the Scout back 15 feet.

 

While I think that SOE needs to elaborate on what their combat system *really* is, I think what they're trying to say is:

We're not going to have a Trinity, because it's OLD technology.  Our combat system is *BETTER* than the trinity, because of its reactive and dynamic AI.

You nailed it on the head.  This is the sort of AI that the Dev's have been describing.  The only thing I'd beg to differ on is that you can still play your dedicated healer, CC, DPS and be successful in the game.  They removed the tank aggro system, and you've wonderfully described why it won't work:  the mobs are smarter now.

Sephiroso

Originally posted by Avicious

I'm sitting here wondering, first of all, how many will read the title alone, and post their inflammatory response, but I ask you, please hear me out.

Even though I LOVE the Trinity, EQNext Combat will be better than the Trinity.  And here's why:

 Dynamic/Reactive AI Scripting 

If combat is ANYTHING like the rest of the game, the Combat scripting will PROBABLY be dynamic and reactive, instead of a preset script.  SOE seems VERY confident about the combat.  

What I *THINK* we're going to see, are mobs that REACT to the group and the players, according to what they're doing.  If the healing is preventing the mob of making any dent in the group, then the mob goes after the healer, to at least interrupt him/her.  (Yes, we don't know how much there will be dedicated healing, but hypothetically.)

If the Scout keeps interrupting the mobs spell casts, the mob attempts to knock the Scout back 15 feet.

 

While I think that SOE needs to elaborate on what their combat system *really* is, I think what they're trying to say is:

We're not going to have a Trinity, because it's OLD technology.  Our combat system is *BETTER* than the trinity, because of its reactive and dynamic AI.

Know who else was vbery confidant about their combat? Tera. Know who else? GW2. What did that land them?

 

Trinity system isn't old. It's the only thing that makes sense in an mmo. You can still give people freedom to do what they want like GW2's class system or Rift's class system and still have the trinity. But making it so there's no trinity is the stupidest thing you can do for your game. It's been proven many times over now.

Kiyoris

Originally posted by Avicious

 

What I *THINK* we're going to see, are mobs that REACT to the group and the players, according to what they're doing.  If the healing is preventing the mob of making any dent in the group, then the mob goes after the healer, to at least interrupt him/her.  (Yes, we don't know how much there will be dedicated healing, but hypothetically.)

If the Scout keeps interrupting the mobs spell casts, the mob attempts to knock the Scout back 15 feet.

 

While I think that SOE needs to elaborate on what their combat system *really* is, I think what they're trying to say is:

We're not going to have a Trinity, because it's OLD technology.  Our combat system is *BETTER* than the trinity, because of its reactive and dynamic AI.

They did something like that in Everquest 1, someone mentioned it before.

They programmed mobs that looked like players, the mobs were smart and knew which player was using which class in the raid, which abilities were being cast and they would target the weakest link first. Your aggro abilities were useless, rogue mobs would run around you and stab you in the back, enchanter mob would mezz our best DPS, tank mobs would run to us and stun us.

It was really fun, but complete chaos. It doesn't work well.

Avicious

Originally posted by Sephiroso

Originally posted by Avicious

I'm sitting here wondering, first of all, how many will read the title alone, and post their inflammatory response, but I ask you, please hear me out.

Even though I LOVE the Trinity, EQNext Combat will be better than the Trinity.  And here's why:

 Dynamic/Reactive AI Scripting 

If combat is ANYTHING like the rest of the game, the Combat scripting will PROBABLY be dynamic and reactive, instead of a preset script.  SOE seems VERY confident about the combat.  

What I *THINK* we're going to see, are mobs that REACT to the group and the players, according to what they're doing.  If the healing is preventing the mob of making any dent in the group, then the mob goes after the healer, to at least interrupt him/her.  (Yes, we don't know how much there will be dedicated healing, but hypothetically.)

If the Scout keeps interrupting the mobs spell casts, the mob attempts to knock the Scout back 15 feet.

 

While I think that SOE needs to elaborate on what their combat system *really* is, I think what they're trying to say is:

We're not going to have a Trinity, because it's OLD technology.  Our combat system is *BETTER* than the trinity, because of its reactive and dynamic AI.

Know who else was vbery confidant about their combat? Tera. Know who else? GW2. What did that land them?

 

Trinity system isn't old. It's the only thing that makes sense in an mmo. You can still give people freedom to do what they want like GW2's class system or Rift's class system and still have the trinity. But making it so there's no trinity is the stupidest thing you can do for your game. It's been proven many times over now.

I can't speak for GW2, since I've never played it.  However, TERA was pre-scripted.  Were they smarter than standard AI in MMO's, yes.  But the biggest point I'm trying to make, is the AI.  Mobs are smarter than the trinity.  Good "agro" isn't going to fool the mob anymore.  They're smarter.

termsy

Originally posted by Grimlock426

Back in vanilla WoW there was an unwritten rule that you did not attack as DPS until the tank had 2-3 sunder armors on the mob...period.  If you attacked before then you'd pull threat and probably get one-shotted.  The same applied to the healer.  If you tried to bust out your biggest heal right out of the gate you probably pulled aggro and were in deep trouble.

Which is exactly why they're changing it. That is so unbelievable boring for everyone except the healer and tank.

Rydeson

Originally posted by Grimlock426

The trinity already offered that by way of tight threat windows.  The problem is that now a days developers have made it so that thread barely matters.  DPS can go crazy right off the bat.  Healers can spam heals with impunity.  To me this is the "dumbing" down of the genre.

Back in vanilla WoW there was an unwritten rule that you did not attack as DPS until the tank had 2-3 sunder armors on the mob...period.  If you attacked before then you'd pull threat and probably get one-shotted.  The same applied to the healer.  If you tried to bust out your biggest heal right out of the gate you probably pulled aggro and were in deep trouble.

While the AI might not have been that smart, it did give the impression the monsters were going after the biggest threat.  You blow your big DPS...the moster is hurt and feels it and comes to kick your butt.  You heal the tank to full right off the bat, oh the moster sees that and does not want you doing that so he goes after you. 

It's just that now a days there is virtually no such thing as threat.  Tanks round up packs of mobs with little effort and the DPS just AOE's them down while the healer spams heals.  It makes is seem easy, and makes it appear that the 'trinity' is broken when that is not the case at all, it's the fact that the developers have dumbed it down so that it 'appears' there is something wrong with the trinity and that it needed to be fixed.

I"m giving Grim a bump here.. Most of the anti-trinity are glazing over his comments.. Grim is absolutely correct.. In fact at the time I left WoW before Cataclysm.. Our raid tank challenged ALL of us in the 5 man group to pull agro off him.. JUST ONE TIME.. We proceeded through 4 heroic dungeons and NEVER once took agro away.. ALL 3 dps  1Mage, 1Hunter 1Rogue and we couldn't do it..  The problem wasn't the trinity.. the problem was the damn devs made threat generation too easy.. 

Hell back in the early days of EQ's version of trinity.. If I snared too early or sat down.. I got SMACKED..  Mob knew who he wanted to pound on .. LOL

Kuppa

You do know the problem with that argument right? That AI, there is no proof of how well it actually works so I would hold of on posting threads like these until we have seen and experienced what it's all about.

Rydeson

Originally posted by termsy

Originally posted by Grimlock426

Back in vanilla WoW there was an unwritten rule that you did not attack as DPS until the tank had 2-3 sunder armors on the mob...period.  If you attacked before then you'd pull threat and probably get one-shotted.  The same applied to the healer.  If you tried to bust out your biggest heal right out of the gate you probably pulled aggro and were in deep trouble.

Which is exactly why they're changing it. That is so unbelievable boring for everyone except the healer and tank.

Throw the baby out with the bathwater because the devs were too stupid or stubborn to REDUCE the threat ability.. Mobs ONLY respond to code,, pure and simple.. I can promise you that if I laid back in the shadows and barely did any dps in EQN, the mob would ignored me like a bad habit.. Why?  Because the CODE says I'm not producing enough dps..   IN 99% of the codes I know, DPS numbers are part of the threat meter.. Same with Heals..  Don't heal, don't get agro, the mob doesn't even know I'm there.. 

Putting in action combat will work the same way.. It does in GW2.. I can tell when I'm generating too much threat and I get smacked when I do.. 

ste2000

Originally posted by Avicious

I'm sitting here wondering, first of all, how many will read the title alone, and post their inflammatory response, but I ask you, please hear me out.

Even though I LOVE the Trinity, EQNext Combat will be better than the Trinity.  And here's why:

 Dynamic/Reactive AI Scripting 

 

OK man...................you are just too confident that our technology is advanced enough to create that kind of AI.

There is not that kind of technology around yet.

That's the Holy Graal of Computing and Universities from around the world are trying to create a machine that react like a human...........with no much success.

 

So you think that SoE and Storybrick finally found the solution?

Storybrick is a cool feature and certainly is the most advanced AI technology in gaming, but don't think for a second that mobs will react like human beings in EQN.

Also Storybricks is not a Combat AI, but more a behavioural technology (ES: he Trollls cannot find food in the area so they move somewhere else)

Don't expect a Troll crouching to avoid being hit by a blade or anything along those lines.

It ain't going to happen.

Roxtarr

Nobody can claim that EQNext combat will be better than anything without seeing it in action. We can hope all we want - and love what they're doing, but they've failed to answer key questions that a mature and experenced MMO fanbase would want to know.

The dismissive nature of their responses about the combat (i.e., don't compare it to GW2) is a bit hilarious considering what they've described sounds exactly like what Arena Net did.

For example, when the EQN devs were asked if there would be tanks, they simply said that a player could spec defensively if they wanted. Yet elsewhere they've specifically stated that there Mobs aren't stupid enough to hit the players with the most defense. By that logic, why would anyone ever spec for defense? By speccing defense, you're sacrificing offense. Since you are the least threatening, this is totally counterproductive since you actually would be hit less often.

Now, the previous paragraph can't be an accurate picture of the game, but it is an accurate portrayal of what they presented. The point is that the message is confusing and messy and needs clarification ASAP.

Datawarlock

Originally posted by Avicious

I'm sitting here wondering, first of all, how many will read the title alone, and post their inflammatory response, but I ask you, please hear me out.

Even though I LOVE the Trinity, EQNext Combat will be better than the Trinity.  And here's why:

 Dynamic/Reactive AI Scripting 

If combat is ANYTHING like the rest of the game (We have yet to see ANY of the game. Period.), the Combat scripting will PROBABLY be dynamic and reactive, instead of a preset script. (A preset NUMBER of scripts is still just a script. And that's exactly what you're getting, not an unlimited number of options that a mob comes up with on the fly, but a limited number of SCRIPTS.) SOE seems VERY confident about the combat.  

What I *THINK* we're going to see, are mobs that REACT to the group and the players, according to what they're doing.  If the healing is preventing the mob of making any dent in the group, then the mob goes after the healer, to at least interrupt him/her.  (Yes, we don't know how much there will be dedicated healing, but hypothetically.)

If the Scout keeps interrupting the mobs spell casts, the mob attempts to knock the Scout back 15 feet.

 

While I think that SOE needs to elaborate on what their combat system *really* is, I think what they're trying to say is:

We're not going to have a Trinity, because it's OLD technology.  Our combat system is *BETTER* than the trinity, because of its reactive and dynamic AI.

So far everything being brought up is all talk and drawing board and buzz word. The fact that mobs may have differing options based, I'm guessing, on a mathematical rotation of some sort, doesn't make it very dynamic once people learn what causes mob x to perform option y. It's not AI, not even by a leap of the definition, and unless every option the mob selects is completely random (and full of wtf? fails due to the option making zero sense at all), the system will be worked out and exploited in a week or less.

Avicious

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by Avicious

I'm sitting here wondering, first of all, how many will read the title alone, and post their inflammatory response, but I ask you, please hear me out.

Even though I LOVE the Trinity, EQNext Combat will be better than the Trinity.  And here's why:

 Dynamic/Reactive AI Scripting 

 

OK man...................you are just too confident that our technology is advanced enough to create that kind of AI.

There is not that kind of technology around yet.

That's the Holy Graal of Computing and Universities from around the world are trying to create a machine that react like a human...........with no much success.

 

So you think that SoE and Storybrick finally found the solution?

Storybrick is a cool feature and certainly is the most advanced AI technology in gaming, but don't think for a second that mobs will react like human beings in EQN.

Also Storybricks is not a Combat AI, but more a behavioural technology (ES: he Trollls cannot find food in the area so they move somewhere else)

Don't expect a Troll crouching to avoid being hit by a blade or anything along those lines.

It ain't going to happen.

You're talking about twitch combat AI.  It's already been done.  What's not possible about it?

 

Avicious

Originally posted by loopback1199

Originally posted by Avicious

I'm sitting here wondering, first of all, how many will read the title alone, and post their inflammatory response, but I ask you, please hear me out.

Even though I LOVE the Trinity, EQNext Combat will be better than the Trinity.  And here's why:

 Dynamic/Reactive AI Scripting 

If combat is ANYTHING like the rest of the game (We have yet to see ANY of the game. Period.), the Combat scripting will PROBABLY be dynamic and reactive, instead of a preset script. (A preset NUMBER of scripts is still just a script. And that's exactly what you're getting, not an unlimited number of options that a mob comes up with on the fly, but a limited number of SCRIPTS.) SOE seems VERY confident about the combat.  

What I *THINK* we're going to see, are mobs that REACT to the group and the players, according to what they're doing.  If the healing is preventing the mob of making any dent in the group, then the mob goes after the healer, to at least interrupt him/her.  (Yes, we don't know how much there will be dedicated healing, but hypothetically.)

If the Scout keeps interrupting the mobs spell casts, the mob attempts to knock the Scout back 15 feet.

 

While I think that SOE needs to elaborate on what their combat system *really* is, I think what they're trying to say is:

We're not going to have a Trinity, because it's OLD technology.  Our combat system is *BETTER* than the trinity, because of its reactive and dynamic AI.

So far everything being brought up is all talk and drawing board and buzz word. The fact that mobs may have differing options based, I'm guessing, on a mathematical rotation of some sort, doesn't make it very dynamic once people learn what causes mob x to perform option y. It's not AI, not even by a leap of the definition, and unless every option the mob selects is completely random (and full of wtf? fails due to the option making zero sense at all), the system will be worked out and exploited in a week or less.

Hypotheticals and speculation based on what we've heard and seen.  Isn't that what's fun to talk about with upcoming games?  Obviously, I don't know any more than you.  I thought that "goes without saying".  Lol

Datawarlock

Originally posted by Avicious

Originally posted by loopback1199

Originally posted by Avicious

I'm sitting here wondering, first of all, how many will read the title alone, and post their inflammatory response, but I ask you, please hear me out.

Even though I LOVE the Trinity, EQNext Combat will be better than the Trinity.  And here's why:

 Dynamic/Reactive AI Scripting 

If combat is ANYTHING like the rest of the game (We have yet to see ANY of the game. Period.), the Combat scripting will PROBABLY be dynamic and reactive, instead of a preset script. (A preset NUMBER of scripts is still just a script. And that's exactly what you're getting, not an unlimited number of options that a mob comes up with on the fly, but a limited number of SCRIPTS.) SOE seems VERY confident about the combat.  

What I *THINK* we're going to see, are mobs that REACT to the group and the players, according to what they're doing.  If the healing is preventing the mob of making any dent in the group, then the mob goes after the healer, to at least interrupt him/her.  (Yes, we don't know how much there will be dedicated healing, but hypothetically.)

If the Scout keeps interrupting the mobs spell casts, the mob attempts to knock the Scout back 15 feet.

 

While I think that SOE needs to elaborate on what their combat system *really* is, I think what they're trying to say is:

We're not going to have a Trinity, because it's OLD technology.  Our combat system is *BETTER* than the trinity, because of its reactive and dynamic AI.

So far everything being brought up is all talk and drawing board and buzz word. The fact that mobs may have differing options based, I'm guessing, on a mathematical rotation of some sort, doesn't make it very dynamic once people learn what causes mob x to perform option y. It's not AI, not even by a leap of the definition, and unless every option the mob selects is completely random (and full of wtf? fails due to the option making zero sense at all), the system will be worked out and exploited in a week or less.

Hypotheticals and speculation based on what we've heard and seen.  Isn't that what's fun to talk about with upcoming games?  Obviously, I don't know any more than you.  I thought that "goes without saying".  Lol

lol! I like you, you're hard to troll XD

Avicious

Originally posted by Telondariel

Originally posted by Avicious

I'm sitting here wondering, first of all, how many will read the title alone, and post their inflammatory response, but I ask you, please hear me out.

Even though I LOVE the Trinity, EQNext Combat will be better than the Trinity.  And here's why:

 Dynamic/Reactive AI Scripting 

If combat is ANYTHING like the rest of the game, the Combat scripting will PROBABLY be dynamic and reactive, instead of a preset script.  SOE seems VERY confident about the combat.  

What I *THINK* we're going to see, are mobs that REACT to the group and the players, according to what they're doing.  If the healing is preventing the mob of making any dent in the group, then the mob goes after the healer, to at least interrupt him/her.  (Yes, we don't know how much there will be dedicated healing, but hypothetically.)

If the Scout keeps interrupting the mobs spell casts, the mob attempts to knock the Scout back 15 feet.

 

While I think that SOE needs to elaborate on what their combat system *really* is, I think what they're trying to say is:

We're not going to have a Trinity, because it's OLD technology.  Our combat system is *BETTER* than the trinity, because of its reactive and dynamic AI.

You nailed it on the head.  This is the sort of AI that the Dev's have been describing.  The only thing I'd beg to differ on is that you can still play your dedicated healer, CC, DPS and be successful in the game.  They removed the tank aggro system, and you've wonderfully described why it won't work:  the mobs are smarter now.

Agreed.  I don't see any reason why you couldn't allow CC and healing.  Thanks for your input!

Justsomenoob

All that needs to be done in this style to avoid mindless DPS play is to make the mobs dangerous enough that if everyone tries to just bully them with damage, they'll just all be killed.

 

GW2 zerging worked because it was relatively easy to avoid attacks just by moving and dodging.   Maybe in EQN it'll require using some active abilities instead.   Maybe abilities you won't even have, or have loaded, which your group can help out with.

 

Hell even in GW2 this was done.  For as much as people talk about zerging it was extremely common for groups to want a guardian to give them aegis to block attacks.   Step up the mob attacks and take away the GW2 invincible dodge roll which could be used extremely often...it doesn't have to be something you can bully your way through with damage.

 

 

Dullahan

Originally posted by Avicious

I'm sitting here wondering, first of all, how many will read the title alone, and post their inflammatory response, but I ask you, please hear me out.

Even though I LOVE the Trinity, EQNext Combat will be better than the Trinity.  And here's why:

 Dynamic/Reactive AI Scripting 

If combat is ANYTHING like the rest of the game, the Combat scripting will PROBABLY be dynamic and reactive, instead of a preset script.  SOE seems VERY confident about the combat.  

What I *THINK* we're going to see, are mobs that REACT to the group and the players, according to what they're doing.  If the healing is preventing the mob of making any dent in the group, then the mob goes after the healer, to at least interrupt him/her.  (Yes, we don't know how much there will be dedicated healing, but hypothetically.)

If the Scout keeps interrupting the mobs spell casts, the mob attempts to knock the Scout back 15 feet.

 

While I think that SOE needs to elaborate on what their combat system *really* is, I think what they're trying to say is:

We're not going to have a Trinity, because it's OLD technology.  Our combat system is *BETTER* than the trinity, because of its reactive and dynamic AI.

You're obviously new to MMOs and probably personal computers, so welcome.  Here in computer land, AI (artificial intelligence) doesn't stand a chance against actual intelligence.  When people use buzz words like "emergent AI", those of us who play games knows this ends up meaning we'll be using our human intelligence to run around at range, or using evasive abilities that AI has no ability to predict, while everyone else not being targeted will simply use their dps abilities.  In MMOs, we call this kiting.  This can be seen in other horrible games like Guild wars 2.

Avicious

Originally posted by Dullahan

Originally posted by Avicious

I'm sitting here wondering, first of all, how many will read the title alone, and post their inflammatory response, but I ask you, please hear me out.

Even though I LOVE the Trinity, EQNext Combat will be better than the Trinity.  And here's why:

 Dynamic/Reactive AI Scripting 

If combat is ANYTHING like the rest of the game, the Combat scripting will PROBABLY be dynamic and reactive, instead of a preset script.  SOE seems VERY confident about the combat.  

What I *THINK* we're going to see, are mobs that REACT to the group and the players, according to what they're doing.  If the healing is preventing the mob of making any dent in the group, then the mob goes after the healer, to at least interrupt him/her.  (Yes, we don't know how much there will be dedicated healing, but hypothetically.)

If the Scout keeps interrupting the mobs spell casts, the mob attempts to knock the Scout back 15 feet.

 

While I think that SOE needs to elaborate on what their combat system *really* is, I think what they're trying to say is:

We're not going to have a Trinity, because it's OLD technology.  Our combat system is *BETTER* than the trinity, because of its reactive and dynamic AI.

You're obviously new to MMOs and probably personal computers, so welcome.

Was that a troll attempt?  I gotta be honest.  I've seen better.