When it comes to EQN: Don't know why they need to remove the Trinity. It's not for their NPCs AI. Maybe they just want to do it ... reason enough I would say, it's their game. Whether it will work and will be fun ... we will see. Hard to estimate atm.
Meteora
The roles of tank, dps and healer are still there, and will be there in more flavors than currently present. What is GONE is the 'taunt' button or magic threat abilities. If you want the AI to attack a particular character you have to create the scenario where that is it's best option. For example we saw two interesting wizard abilities, the one that made a wall of icy looking crystals and one that gathered enemies up and teleported the wizard away. Those two abilities could be used in a sequence, with coordination with the battle cat where the kobolds would be better off attacking the warrior as they would be blocked off from attacking the wizard.
Plenty of mobs in Everquest are meant to be taken down with multiple groups, even outside of instances. Queen in TSS, Hulcror and Velitorkin in WoS, they're not raid mobs, they're multi-group mobs.
Using more than 6 people isn't zerging, that has always been possible in any game.
Plenty of mobs in Everquest are meant to be taken down with multiple groups, even outside of instances. Queen in TSS, Hulcror and Velitorkin in WoS, they're not raid mobs, they're multi-group mobs.
Using more than 6 people isn't zerging, that has always been possible in any game.
Winning through overwhelming numbers isn't zerging? that's news to me. Anyway the mobs you mentioned are all raid targets, particularly when they were current content during omens of war, and since they weren't instanced you could bring more people to kill them than you could to an instanced raid, you could 'zerg' them so to say.
People zerg in EQ, lots of people do it, particularly when getting a named in non instanced group content and nobody has raid gear. 1 or 2 DPS dropping group so more heal mercs can be popped is not uncommon, it's also not uncommon to do it so DPS mercs can be popped.
It's no secret that most group content mobs are tuned for one group, so yes it's zerging when you reform your group to allow for mercs to take it down.
The EQ I played from 1999-2003 sure as hell had zerging. In fact, EQ players invented the term!
what...
Shhhh... their heads will explode if they find out that games other than EQ ever existed. Be gentle if you tread those waters.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Anyway the mobs you mentioned are all raid targets
We did those mobs with 2 groups during OOW, so did most guilds. Only if you were far behind in progression did you need to bring a raid for them. Most of the time we ran past them since the loot on them was worse than what you could get in PoTime even.
I am not going to despair yet, nor will I until I play EQN but I do remain a skeptic. If there was anything that made EQ arguably the best MMORPG of all time it was the group dynamic. If you didn’t have a tank, a healer, a enchanter, a puller and dps classes in a tight 6 man group you were screwed in a dungeon. Furthermore it took some time and skill development to be a good support class. How do you move away from this without having support classes be trivial to play?
Anyway the mobs you mentioned are all raid targets
We did those mobs with 2 groups during OOW, so did most guilds. Only if you were far behind in progression did you need to bring a raid for them. Most of the time we ran past them since the loot on them was worse than what you could get in PoTime even.
Chances are then your guild referred to anyone who couldn't take them down with 2 groups as 'zergs'.
"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair."
Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.
Here's my two cents. Imagine you are a mob in any mmo. Primitive or advance AI, you only have 1 of 4 choices when 5 guys are attacking you.
#3 Attack the biggest guy in the group hoping to defeat him and demoralized the other "softer" members.
#4 Attack the "softest" member killing him quickly to shift the odds in your favor.
Options 1 and 2 have been done before in many mmos. We have seen mobs retreat when their health gets low. We've seen them call for help. Nothing new. These are simply fixed with crowd control.
Option 3 is the holy trinity. Focus on the guy dealing the most damage or generating the most hate. Which in a perfect world is always the tank.
Option 4 would be somewhat new, but would end the same way GW2 does.... in a Zergfest. If the AI goes after the softer DDs or mages the tankier members are still going to try and pull it off, or everyone is just going to zerg it down before it kills anyone.
A fifth option which I almost don't even care to mention is something we say in Borderlands 2. When fighting a mob, if you don't kill it fast enough it evolves into something bigger and badder. Still in the end it again becomes option 4. A Zergfest.
There are no other options in this scenario. So before we get all silly-hyped on more of SOEs promises to Reinvent the Wheel lets step back and realize that SOE just isn't that smart, and we hopefully aren't dumb enough to believe they are.
It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.
And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.
So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market.
On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community.
Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"
/this
/notthis
I don't know what type of critical thinking schools have taught over the years but apparently "not much".
I can easily imagine an "action combat" version of crowd control, several different versions of healing, one of which requires healing "after a battle and not during" and any number of ways that you can make players require the assistance of other classes.
But apparently, because some games adopted certain ways of doing things, no other way is even remotely possible.
Or maybe we just don't have any "outside the box" thinkers here.
Do you see any evidence in the combat videos we have seen so far that show this out of the box AI thinking? If they have a proof of concept video (assuming they are pros) they should prove it to us by showing releasing the video. If not, it could just be pie in the sky.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
... and the Trinity gives you rigid roles that never change. The real world doesn't work like that.
PvP is the representation of Trinity-less combat and PvP is not zergy unless, again, you suck.
That's just rubbish - I've got news for you, the real world does revolve around the majority of the population sticking to roles they know well.
PvP in MMO's is all about zerg. The number of times I have been able to 1v1 a person is minimal compared to the times I've been 1v2 or more. In organised team PvP the whole strategy revolves around isolating or setting up a single person so that they can be burned (zerged) down.
I'm not saying its right / wrong but you cant just use rubbish as your supporting argument.
"All Hail Storybricks" then? SOE practically borrowed Storybricks to implement AI in EQN. SOE never had the ability to create something of this proportion and that is why they leaned toward Storybricks. If the copy-paster can create something like that, i wonder what the real deal would be like. Waiting for Storybricks now.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Do you see any evidence in the combat videos we have seen so far that show this out of the box AI thinking? If they have a proof of concept video (assuming they are pros) they should prove it to us by showing releasing the video. If not, it could just be pie in the sky.
He is making a statement that action combat is limited "primitive. I addressed that.
It doesn't have to be that way. He says it doesn't allow for pulling which is ridiculous (and I don't believe in pulling anyway as per another posters earlier statement) as all one has to do is aim and pull. CC can be done any number of ways, cone around the player, cone around the player but allies block its effect so that you have to position yourself correctly, an aim and a successful hit, maybe a stat check to see if it works.
Inferior tanking? well once again I loved tanking in Tera where i would position my body between myself and the healer and slam with my shield, stun him and allow the healer to move to a better spot. In addition I really loved my chain that I could thow out and pull trash mobs to me or literally stop the boss if the effect worked. It was very "in the moment". I also had to always attack to build up my power otherwise just standing there and blocking would not only drain power but I'd lose the mob/boss's attention because it would go to someone else. But maybe a tank has more to do than just being weak but able to take hits? Maybe a tank does decent damage as he should but can grab mobs, throw them, be a barrier, have a power that is a yell that throws mobs back, maybe stunning them.
For healing? Same as CC, cone, possible position requirement, an aim, maybe even an actual touch, why not? Maybe a mechanic where the healer has to constantly be fighting and blocking. As long as the mob doesn't land a hit the healer emits an aura of protection or healing or "you name your poison" but as soon as the healer is touched the concentration breaks and he/she has to build it up again. maybe the healer has an ability where he can link to a mob, maybe forcing that mob to beat on him and he sacrifces his health but passes the loss as healing to a player he has linked to. How about a holy healer who must inscribe a holy symbol in various areas as the fighting continues and then once finishing the last one a huge heal goes off in the area the symbols cover?
It can be anything you want. Maybe a Bard that has a musical mini-game, one that is easy enough for non-musicians to master, that continually allows for a buff or a steady heal over time but that Bard can't be hit or it breaks his concentration, loses the buff/healing. Or the buff/healing is better or worse depending how how well he does in the mini-game. Tabbing to an enemy and hitting a button on a hotbar is not more "bettah" than aiming a skill, emitting a cone (or aiming a cone) or area of effect or having to touch another player. Add your layers as you see fit.
Just because some companies haven't used it to its potential doesn't mean that depth can't be added.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.
And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.
So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market.
On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community.
Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"
Completely agree.
MMO doesn't necessarily mean Action game controller game play. Having game play be more strategic and require more coordination and usage of skills vs action skills is a major change. I like to direct my character in game and be the brains behind his actions. I don't like to pretend I am my character...
Having played action MMOs it seems like most of the players are ADHD and nobody talks, thinks or does anything but run up and attack. Sure there is some dodging and some active avoidance but thats really more like another game. Kinda like an arcade.
I loved the more sophisticated game play where you had to plan the attack, pull a mob while avoiding getting agro on too many, used skills to cc when you got to many, had significant bufs and debufs, the ability to root and a variety of choices for how you managed the fight. I remember in eq a pull where we had to many, the ranger kited them, the shaman rooted the extras, and we killed them one by one. When root broke the ranger would pick it up and repeated. Was a very good group that managed a bad pull and good team work saved the day. In many instances a mistake ended in death.
In todays "advanced action games" you just run in and attack. You dodge around, avoid damage where you can. You team never talks and there is no strategy. Everything is about the individual doing damage, healing, and avoiding damage.
It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.
And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.
So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market.
On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community.
Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"
Play Tera in endgame (hardmodes). It's the only Action MMO which has a tactical approach and advanced AI:
I'm playing Tera and I'm hoping that's true. Tera does have the trinity through so even through it is action oriented it follows the old style game play as well. Tanks tank, healers heal, and dps dps. No real crowd control, bufs, debufs etc that are significant. It has the basics so far but seems rather basic.
Nice graphics and the animations are nice however Gameplay having leveled up to lvl 52 is so far kinda bland. Quests are really dull for the most part being go kill x of this or click y. Mostly they are kill quests. Some talk to various people. An occasional follow and defend someone. But thats about it.
I've done a few instances and game play is border line. I'm holding my final opinion till I'm doing 60 dungeons. I like to play and do group instances. I was playing swtor and really enjoyed it. But after maxing several characters was looking for a new environment.
"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI"
I always said that. Trinity was the worst excuse for tactics i saw in a game.
In some games it is done poorly. Your tank taunts and thats it everything is on the tank and you just dps down. However not all games are that unbalanced. The original EQ had a much more raged balance. Over heal and the healer ended up with agro and died. DPS spikes damage then they got agro. Tanks had to pull and position mobs and then had to stay on hate generating abilities. However it wasn't a sure thing.
I remember healers telling my rogue you get agro you're gonna die cause it isn't worth healing you and getting agro.
So agro tables and models to build AI based on agro wasn't a bad thing and you are still going to have it in the game. Mobs will have agro tables and will decide who to attack based on various factors. So what's being discussed here is really one major change. Eliminating the tool that Tanks can use to generate hate.
So normally you balance classes based on things like damage, defense, healing, special abilities. The mix for each character class balances the desirability of the class. So I'd question how you can even have a defensive warrior type class without a hate generating mechanic? A defensive warrior would do less DPS than say a rogue, ranger, wizard. I mean if I could make a class that was strong defense and had great dps it would be hard to ever see anyone make a class that wasn't defensive?
So unless you are going to eliminate the tank completely and reimaging the class to be someone like an AE damage specialist than you won't have a tank in the game. This starts to bleed the class system and diversity away and leave us with a mindless action game where classes only differ in style not in effect.
Now maybe tanks will be tanks and they won't have a taunt. Maybe they got a stun and maybe a push ability. Something that ultimately has the same effect as a taunt. IE the tank is a major pain in the ass and killing him his highly desirable because he makes it real hard to kill anyone else Same anology that makes killing healers real high on the list . Give the tank knock backs with a stun unless you are facing him or something. ie if you are not focused on the tank he is gonna wack you in the head and you are gonna fall down dazed. Maybe he can drag you away from your target. So as long as the tank is around you are gonna be hard pressed to do much damage to say that tasty wizard or that aweful healer unless you get close or maybe the tank is only focused on one mob. However a good tank will be aware and be a pain to all the mobs . Or maybe the tank is a pain for one and can't be very effective with too many leaving room for a good CC or Enchanter type class.
"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI"
I always said that. Trinity was the worst excuse for tactics i saw in a game.
Now maybe tanks will be tanks and they won't have a taunt. Maybe they got a stun and maybe a push ability. Something that ultimately has the same effect as a taunt. IE the tank is a major pain in the ass and killing him his highly desirable because he makes it real hard to kill anyone else
Not sure why so many are unable to see this.
Instead of spamming taunt or threat building abilities, tanks will actually have to tank... not a hard concept.
In the reveal video, the Warrior had multiple forms of damage + CC. Shield bash literally knocked a mob down a flight of stairs.
Why anyone would find it more exciting to stand in one spot spamming taunt instead of knocking the snuff out of a mob all over the map, is beyond me.
No offense to those that like "trinity" style, but it is so boring, especially for the majority of the group that doesn't get to do it. 40 player raids with 1 person tanking is not exciting, I'm sorry.
Personally, I find the EQN action combat shown so far to offer much more of a challenge then staring at threat meters and health bars the many mmos boil down to.
Traditional roles will be needed, they will just be more exciting and challenging.
@Waterlily and the hardcore trinity users: Choice would mean you could use trinity within the game but that it would not be the only way to progress forward through encounters (zergs, mounted archer-type tactics, pet slave armies, etc being alternatives no less valid).
"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair."
Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.
This is based on what exactly? Hype? Because we clearly have no evidence of that. The trinity imo is absolutely critical to a successive MMORPG. I cannot grasp any means for a non trinity combat system could be anything more than a zerg. Maybe they can be the ones to finally pull it off, but I am not holding my breadth. I don't see how it could be done!
TESO also said they were going to downplay the trinity, and we saw how that worked out in the gameplay footage at Quakecon. Everyone just sort of did whatever, and they progressed through the dungeon without any coordination or care.
"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair."
Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.
This is based on what exactly? Hype? Because we clearly have no evidence of that. The trinity imo is absolutely critical to a successive MMORPG. I cannot grasp any means for a non trinity combat system could be anything more than a zerg. Maybe they can be the ones to finally pull it off, but I am not holding my breadth. I don't see how it could be done!
TESO also said they were going to downplay the trinity, and we saw how that worked out in the gameplay footage at Quakecon. Everyone just sort of did whatever, and they progressed through the dungeon without any coordination or care.
Not seeing how it can be done does not mean it cannot be done.
"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair."
Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.
This is based on what exactly? Hype? Because we clearly have no evidence of that. The trinity imo is absolutely critical to a successive MMORPG. I cannot grasp any means for a non trinity combat system could be anything more than a zerg. Maybe they can be the ones to finally pull it off, but I am not holding my breadth. I don't see how it could be done!
TESO also said they were going to downplay the trinity, and we saw how that worked out in the gameplay footage at Quakecon. Everyone just sort of did whatever, and they progressed through the dungeon without any coordination or care.
Not seeing how it can be done does not mean it cannot be done.
True. Lots of people have thought up solutions that I would likely have never come up with. Emergent AI for example. I didn't actually put any thought into that, as I didn't consider it a problem, but that is a great idea none the less.
Fact remains though it has been tried numerous times, even recently, and it has always failed to live up to the hype. I see no reason to believe this time to be different. its not like they are using vastly superior technology or something.
In other words, I will believe it when I see it. So, don't go killing off the holy trinity just yet, or we very well might not have anything to play!
Comments
what...
The roles of tank, dps and healer are still there, and will be there in more flavors than currently present. What is GONE is the 'taunt' button or magic threat abilities. If you want the AI to attack a particular character you have to create the scenario where that is it's best option. For example we saw two interesting wizard abilities, the one that made a wall of icy looking crystals and one that gathered enemies up and teleported the wizard away. Those two abilities could be used in a sequence, with coordination with the battle cat where the kobolds would be better off attacking the warrior as they would be blocked off from attacking the wizard.
It's throwing more bodies at a situation, computer controlled ones even.
Lol. Yeah.. everything was invented from EQ players.
That's not zerging.
Plenty of mobs in Everquest are meant to be taken down with multiple groups, even outside of instances. Queen in TSS, Hulcror and Velitorkin in WoS, they're not raid mobs, they're multi-group mobs.
Using more than 6 people isn't zerging, that has always been possible in any game.
Winning through overwhelming numbers isn't zerging? that's news to me. Anyway the mobs you mentioned are all raid targets, particularly when they were current content during omens of war, and since they weren't instanced you could bring more people to kill them than you could to an instanced raid, you could 'zerg' them so to say.
People zerg in EQ, lots of people do it, particularly when getting a named in non instanced group content and nobody has raid gear. 1 or 2 DPS dropping group so more heal mercs can be popped is not uncommon, it's also not uncommon to do it so DPS mercs can be popped.
It's no secret that most group content mobs are tuned for one group, so yes it's zerging when you reform your group to allow for mercs to take it down.
Shhhh... their heads will explode if they find out that games other than EQ ever existed. Be gentle if you tread those waters.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
We did those mobs with 2 groups during OOW, so did most guilds. Only if you were far behind in progression did you need to bring a raid for them. Most of the time we ran past them since the loot on them was worse than what you could get in PoTime even.
I am not going to despair yet, nor will I until I play EQN but I do remain a skeptic. If there was anything that made EQ arguably the best MMORPG of all time it was the group dynamic. If you didn’t have a tank, a healer, a enchanter, a puller and dps classes in a tight 6 man group you were screwed in a dungeon. Furthermore it took some time and skill development to be a good support class. How do you move away from this without having support classes be trivial to play?
Chances are then your guild referred to anyone who couldn't take them down with 2 groups as 'zergs'.
It's true...and based on some posts...some found out already...
Here's my two cents. Imagine you are a mob in any mmo. Primitive or advance AI, you only have 1 of 4 choices when 5 guys are attacking you.
#1 Run.
#2 Call for help.
#3 Attack the biggest guy in the group hoping to defeat him and demoralized the other "softer" members.
#4 Attack the "softest" member killing him quickly to shift the odds in your favor.
Options 1 and 2 have been done before in many mmos. We have seen mobs retreat when their health gets low. We've seen them call for help. Nothing new. These are simply fixed with crowd control.
Option 3 is the holy trinity. Focus on the guy dealing the most damage or generating the most hate. Which in a perfect world is always the tank.
Option 4 would be somewhat new, but would end the same way GW2 does.... in a Zergfest. If the AI goes after the softer DDs or mages the tankier members are still going to try and pull it off, or everyone is just going to zerg it down before it kills anyone.
A fifth option which I almost don't even care to mention is something we say in Borderlands 2. When fighting a mob, if you don't kill it fast enough it evolves into something bigger and badder. Still in the end it again becomes option 4. A Zergfest.
There are no other options in this scenario. So before we get all silly-hyped on more of SOEs promises to Reinvent the Wheel lets step back and realize that SOE just isn't that smart, and we hopefully aren't dumb enough to believe they are.
Do you see any evidence in the combat videos we have seen so far that show this out of the box AI thinking? If they have a proof of concept video (assuming they are pros) they should prove it to us by showing releasing the video. If not, it could just be pie in the sky.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
That's just rubbish - I've got news for you, the real world does revolve around the majority of the population sticking to roles they know well.
PvP in MMO's is all about zerg. The number of times I have been able to 1v1 a person is minimal compared to the times I've been 1v2 or more. In organised team PvP the whole strategy revolves around isolating or setting up a single person so that they can be burned (zerged) down.
I'm not saying its right / wrong but you cant just use rubbish as your supporting argument.Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
He is making a statement that action combat is limited "primitive. I addressed that.
It doesn't have to be that way. He says it doesn't allow for pulling which is ridiculous (and I don't believe in pulling anyway as per another posters earlier statement) as all one has to do is aim and pull. CC can be done any number of ways, cone around the player, cone around the player but allies block its effect so that you have to position yourself correctly, an aim and a successful hit, maybe a stat check to see if it works.
Inferior tanking? well once again I loved tanking in Tera where i would position my body between myself and the healer and slam with my shield, stun him and allow the healer to move to a better spot. In addition I really loved my chain that I could thow out and pull trash mobs to me or literally stop the boss if the effect worked. It was very "in the moment". I also had to always attack to build up my power otherwise just standing there and blocking would not only drain power but I'd lose the mob/boss's attention because it would go to someone else. But maybe a tank has more to do than just being weak but able to take hits? Maybe a tank does decent damage as he should but can grab mobs, throw them, be a barrier, have a power that is a yell that throws mobs back, maybe stunning them.
For healing? Same as CC, cone, possible position requirement, an aim, maybe even an actual touch, why not? Maybe a mechanic where the healer has to constantly be fighting and blocking. As long as the mob doesn't land a hit the healer emits an aura of protection or healing or "you name your poison" but as soon as the healer is touched the concentration breaks and he/she has to build it up again. maybe the healer has an ability where he can link to a mob, maybe forcing that mob to beat on him and he sacrifces his health but passes the loss as healing to a player he has linked to. How about a holy healer who must inscribe a holy symbol in various areas as the fighting continues and then once finishing the last one a huge heal goes off in the area the symbols cover?
It can be anything you want. Maybe a Bard that has a musical mini-game, one that is easy enough for non-musicians to master, that continually allows for a buff or a steady heal over time but that Bard can't be hit or it breaks his concentration, loses the buff/healing. Or the buff/healing is better or worse depending how how well he does in the mini-game. Tabbing to an enemy and hitting a button on a hotbar is not more "bettah" than aiming a skill, emitting a cone (or aiming a cone) or area of effect or having to touch another player. Add your layers as you see fit.
Just because some companies haven't used it to its potential doesn't mean that depth can't be added.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Completely agree.
MMO doesn't necessarily mean Action game controller game play. Having game play be more strategic and require more coordination and usage of skills vs action skills is a major change. I like to direct my character in game and be the brains behind his actions. I don't like to pretend I am my character...
Having played action MMOs it seems like most of the players are ADHD and nobody talks, thinks or does anything but run up and attack. Sure there is some dodging and some active avoidance but thats really more like another game. Kinda like an arcade.
I loved the more sophisticated game play where you had to plan the attack, pull a mob while avoiding getting agro on too many, used skills to cc when you got to many, had significant bufs and debufs, the ability to root and a variety of choices for how you managed the fight. I remember in eq a pull where we had to many, the ranger kited them, the shaman rooted the extras, and we killed them one by one. When root broke the ranger would pick it up and repeated. Was a very good group that managed a bad pull and good team work saved the day. In many instances a mistake ended in death.
In todays "advanced action games" you just run in and attack. You dodge around, avoid damage where you can. You team never talks and there is no strategy. Everything is about the individual doing damage, healing, and avoiding damage.
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Ethion
I'm playing Tera and I'm hoping that's true. Tera does have the trinity through so even through it is action oriented it follows the old style game play as well. Tanks tank, healers heal, and dps dps. No real crowd control, bufs, debufs etc that are significant. It has the basics so far but seems rather basic.
Nice graphics and the animations are nice however
Gameplay having leveled up to lvl 52 is so far kinda bland. Quests are really dull for the most part being go kill x of this or click y. Mostly they are kill quests. Some talk to various people. An occasional follow and defend someone. But thats about it.
I've done a few instances and game play is border line. I'm holding my final opinion till I'm doing 60 dungeons. I like to play and do group instances. I was playing swtor and really enjoyed it. But after maxing several characters was looking for a new environment.
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Ethion
In some games it is done poorly. Your tank taunts and thats it everything is on the tank and you just dps down. However not all games are that unbalanced. The original EQ had a much more raged balance. Over heal and the healer ended up with agro and died. DPS spikes damage then they got agro. Tanks had to pull and position mobs and then had to stay on hate generating abilities. However it wasn't a sure thing.
I remember healers telling my rogue you get agro you're gonna die cause it isn't worth healing you and getting agro.
So agro tables and models to build AI based on agro wasn't a bad thing and you are still going to have it in the game. Mobs will have agro tables and will decide who to attack based on various factors. So what's being discussed here is really one major change. Eliminating the tool that Tanks can use to generate hate.
So normally you balance classes based on things like damage, defense, healing, special abilities. The mix for each character class balances the desirability of the class. So I'd question how you can even have a defensive warrior type class without a hate generating mechanic? A defensive warrior would do less DPS than say a rogue, ranger, wizard. I mean if I could make a class that was strong defense and had great dps it would be hard to ever see anyone make a class that wasn't defensive?
So unless you are going to eliminate the tank completely and reimaging the class to be someone like an AE damage specialist than you won't have a tank in the game. This starts to bleed the class system and diversity away and leave us with a mindless action game where classes only differ in style not in effect.
Now maybe tanks will be tanks and they won't have a taunt. Maybe they got a stun and maybe a push ability. Something that ultimately has the same effect as a taunt. IE the tank is a major pain in the ass and killing him his highly desirable because he makes it real hard to kill anyone else
Same anology that makes killing healers real high on the list 
. Give the tank knock backs with a stun unless you are facing him or something. ie if you are not focused on the tank he is gonna wack you in the head and you are gonna fall down dazed. Maybe he can drag you away from your target. So as long as the tank is around you are gonna be hard pressed to do much damage to say that tasty wizard or that aweful healer unless you get close or maybe the tank is only focused on one mob. However a good tank will be aware and be a pain to all the mobs 
. Or maybe the tank is a pain for one and can't be very effective with too many leaving room for a good CC or Enchanter type class.
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Ethion
Not sure why so many are unable to see this.
Instead of spamming taunt or threat building abilities, tanks will actually have to tank... not a hard concept.
In the reveal video, the Warrior had multiple forms of damage + CC. Shield bash literally knocked a mob down a flight of stairs.
Why anyone would find it more exciting to stand in one spot spamming taunt instead of knocking the snuff out of a mob all over the map, is beyond me.
No offense to those that like "trinity" style, but it is so boring, especially for the majority of the group that doesn't get to do it. 40 player raids with 1 person tanking is not exciting, I'm sorry.
Personally, I find the EQN action combat shown so far to offer much more of a challenge then staring at threat meters and health bars the many mmos boil down to.
Traditional roles will be needed, they will just be more exciting and challenging.
Trinity only is dead, choice is the future.
@Waterlily and the hardcore trinity users: Choice would mean you could use trinity within the game but that it would not be the only way to progress forward through encounters (zergs, mounted archer-type tactics, pet slave armies, etc being alternatives no less valid).
This is based on what exactly? Hype? Because we clearly have no evidence of that. The trinity imo is absolutely critical to a successive MMORPG. I cannot grasp any means for a non trinity combat system could be anything more than a zerg. Maybe they can be the ones to finally pull it off, but I am not holding my breadth. I don't see how it could be done!
TESO also said they were going to downplay the trinity, and we saw how that worked out in the gameplay footage at Quakecon. Everyone just sort of did whatever, and they progressed through the dungeon without any coordination or care.
Not seeing how it can be done does not mean it cannot be done.
True. Lots of people have thought up solutions that I would likely have never come up with. Emergent AI for example. I didn't actually put any thought into that, as I didn't consider it a problem, but that is a great idea none the less.
Fact remains though it has been tried numerous times, even recently, and it has always failed to live up to the hype. I see no reason to believe this time to be different. its not like they are using vastly superior technology or something.
In other words, I will believe it when I see it. So, don't go killing off the holy trinity just yet, or we very well might not have anything to play!