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How to make linear progression work.
Sephiroso
Member RarePosts: 2,020
Okay, i think we can all agree its a common complaint people have about games that feature linear progression, like WoW. Why does linear progression have to be such a bad thing however? The short and simple answer is the way it was implemented.
The way Blizzard decided to go about it was like so. You level up from 1-60, you do your dungeons, you do your first tier raids to be able to be strong enough to do the 2nd tier raids. You gear up from 2nd tier to do 3rd tier. Etc. And then the expansion came out with lvl 61 Gear outstripping most of the Tier 1 and some of the tier 2 raid gear. Higher raid tier generally lasted you until you hit near cap once again and the process repeated itself.
There's 2 main reasons why people do not like this form of progression. The first is because it basically makes it so that if you haven't gotten to see all of the content in the game yet, you can just skip it and come back later with insanely better gear and wtfpwn it making the whole experience lackluster. So this form of linear progression basically negates all old raid content the second a new expansion releases.
The 2nd main reason is people dislike the fact that a level 61 boar dropped an uncommon quality item that was better than their Molten Core epic that they spent 5 weeks trying to get. It almost tramples over all the hard work you put into raiding to get your shiny epic when a boar drops a green that outstrips it by far.
As to my purposed fixes, i think its very simple. It is my opinion that vertical progression is honestly the only thing that makes sense in the first place when you think of things from the lore/storyline perspective. Put simply, if there was no linear progression, then why exactly would still be hard to kill Illidan or the Lich King when you killed Ragnaros and Onyxia.
First fix
Just like there's a power difference in players, so to is the same to be true for bosses/mobs. Which means your character should also grow in strength to be able to take on new and bigger threats to the world. With that having been said, on to the fixes. First fix would be to get rid of large numbers of required players to doing raids and drop it down to 5-6, 10 at the most.
My reasoning for change to the raid amount be so low is its simply just needless to have to find so many different people(not to mention really hard) that aren't completely useless. Also the difference in complexity from a 25 man and a 10 man really isn't all that noticable. So why continue to force us to find 24 other people for raids? It's simply not necessary and does no good whatsoever.
2nd fix
Second off, if you're going to go with linear progression for your game, then make it linear progression for your game including when an expansion drops, but don't make it so the stats get reset to a whole different level to the point a lvl 61 boar is dropping greens that are 2x better than epics from raids. There's just no sense in that. Sure you can make it so your crit rate/hit rate/etc will drop as soon as you level from 60 to 61 but there is no sense in no name monsters/thugs carrying better gear than a raid boss just because its 1 level higher than the raid boss which isn't even true technically since speaking from WoW experience, Raid bosses(skull icon instead of level) are 3 levels higher than cap. Which means Ragnaros and co would be lvl 63.
What you could do instead is make it so the dungeons, yes even the first dungeon blues can be better than tier 1 raids, but play it off story wise that even the first couple dungeon bosses you come across are stronger than raid encounters from the previous expansion.
It is my belief that with the raid number requirements cut shorter, there will be a much greater amount of people that will fully experience the content of a given expansion or base game and thus will be in possibly the highest tier gear which will probably last them until they get to the max lvl dungeon blues and are ready for raiding in the new expansion.
I don't expect alot of you to agree with my 2nd 'fix' to making linear progression work but i believe it would be for the best and alot would find that more acceptable than what we currently have today. I'm sure most would probably agree with my first fix of dropping raid requirements down from 10/25 to 5-6, maybe keep a few 10s around for the last here or there and keep the bigger ones 25-40 man for outdoor raids.
TL;DR
1. Reduce raid member requirements to 5-6 people, keep a few 10 mans around still, also can keep 25-40 man raids still for outdoor raids/events.
2. Stop the complete rescaling of stats per expansion so that a level 61 boar green wont completely trash the first tier of an expasion's raid gear. Also make it so that the first boss of a dungeon comes off as more powerful than the first tier raid boss storyline wise/lore wise so it takes a bit of the sting out when dungeon gear starts to overcome raid gear.
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Comments
Prevention is sometimes unavoidable also. And not necessarily always the best cure. I've had some of the most fun i've ever had playing mmo's during WoW vanilla and BC from the linear progression route they chose. I just believe they have a couple glaring errors that if fixed, it would be an amazing style of progression rather than just a style we put up with because its fun but at the same time those errors are glaring us right in the face tho we try to avoid it.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Who knows maybe EQN will show that a sense of "always" is better than linear but i've yet to see it been implemented with any success. GW2 tried it and just....no. Linear progression leads credence that our characters continue to grow in strength, without it...once we reach level cap, how do we continue to grow stronger? If not through continually better gear, then how?
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
The entire point of a gear treadmill is that each new tier of content renders the last tier obsolete. Expansions are the reset button that levels the playing field between raiders and non-raiders.
(1) is a design choice, not a problem. Not every players want to depend on others.
(2) (mini-map) is a standard feature.
"There's 2 main reasons why people do not like this form of progression..."
Your issues and fixes have so little to do with level that I am wondering if you simply had a bad week trying to get groups/gear and looked for something to blame it on. Your first issues isn't a linear progress issue but an ANY progression issue. Your second is an odd issue with loot tables.
The flaws of linear progression, as directly inherited from PnP but exacerbated by the grander scale they have taken on in MMOs, are:
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The first fix doesn't really address the stated problem at all. I mean it's a good idea for several different reasons, but it doesn't really address the problem.
The second fix works against the point of the power-skip with an expansion.
It's hard to really describe the entire system from scratch in a short post, but basically the primary problems games like these worry about is that there are always players gradually getting bored with a game and not too many new players entering the system. These two factors mean that if progression with each expansion is completely additive, a game will completely strangle its own endgame to death.
So smart games actively manage the "progression distance" between starting the game and reaching the beginning of a grouping-centric endgame.
There are a few other factors involved with how a typical progression game is setup too, but that's the basic stuff.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
A really good overview, Axehilt.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Not really. You can play many MMO solo. It is not an accident that many MMOs support solo play. That is evidence that players don't want to depend on others, at least not for groups.
Other players can be the basis for a AH, or pvp, or just as background.
Don't tell me you see player dependency in modern MMOs. I was just playing Marvel Heroes, and STO yesterday. Don't tell me you don't know that you don't need any other players to enjoy those games.
In many games you can solo to endgame, but without other players, the actual endgame itself (raiding, PvP, etc.) doesn't actually exist.
You can very well play MMOs as a single player experience up until that time however.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Linear like FFA is about roadblocks.
FFA isn't just an issue with noob ganking. People line up to club you in FFA. You beating me in FFA isn't a big deal but you did, he did, the other guy did, the next guy did and the guy after him and yea, it's time for me to quit because now I'm being farmed, not just by you but by 50 other people and being old, being new that's a problem.
Linear quest log leveling is the same.
I hit a solo quest I can't do. Game over until I can. Or until I get so pissed I stop trying. The issue with linear progression is, the games provide you with one way to do it and in some vane attempt to make it "hard" they turn everything in to cookie cutter.
Button masher or cookie cutter. Welcome to linear progression. All or nothing. Much like FFA. All or nothing. There is no middle ground.
Where do you get that?
There are plenty of games, while the story is linear, provides you with multiple ways to do it. Deus Ex Human Evoluation, Dishonored .....
May be MMO should take a page from that.
yeh i do that all the time. It is quite fun to play STO and Marvel Heroes essentially as a SP game (fun for me, of course).