How combat might just end up working

EnScheff

I am one of those who are convinced EQN is more likely than not going to be a replay of GW2 zergfest combat based on the devs claiming there will be no tanks or healers. We all know that if defensive players are not required for content, the playerbase will simply go with the highest DPS group builds that allow them to clear content as quickly as possible.

Taking that statement as "MMO fact", here is how I think they might be able to make it work:

Main assumption is that worthwhile mobs are actually dangerous enough to kill non-defensive players rather easily.

First example is a simple max DPS group of 5 Wizards trying to kill a dangerous mob. Going full bore DPS, each Wizard does 100 DPS. However, since they are fighting a dangerous mob, each Wizard has to spend 20% of his/her combat resources (mana, energy, casting times, whatever) casting their Knockback spell to control this dangerous mob. This means each Wizard now effectively does 80 DPS, making the total group DPS 400 (80 x5). The added danger of all 5 members being killed relatively easily is also present. One slip up equals death to the group.

Now let's say another group consists of 4 Wizards and 1 Warrior acting as the tank. The Warrior (max DPS of 80) spends 50% of his combat resources controlling the mob with his Kick and Bash abilities, lowering his DPS to 40. This allows the Wizards to use thier Knockback skills half as often, boosting each of their DPS up to 90. Now the group's total DPS is still 400 (40 from Warrior, 90x4 from Wizards), but the group also benefits by having a beefier member less likely to be killed.

Lastly, we consider the "optimal group" consisting of 1 Warrior, 1 Cleric, and 3 Wizards (to keep the example as simple as possible). The Cleric (max DPS of 80) spends 50% of his time healing the other 4 group members, thus allowing the Wizards to go full burn DPS all the time and crank out their max 100 DPS, and the Warrior to use his Kick less often and crank out 60 DPS. In this optimal group setting the total DPS is still 400 (40 from Cleric, 60 from Warrior, 100x3 from Wizards), but the group benefits from even more safety.

These examples are obviously very simplistic, but you can imagine what happens if you add a buffing class that boosts everyone's DPS by 20%. Or a debuffing class that lowers the mob's DPS so significantly that everyone can go full bore DPS rather than using resources to control the mob. Or what happens when more than one mob comes, thus requiring either a CC class or multiple defensive classes. 

The point is they just might be able to balance this. I have serious doubts, but it may be possible.  

 

wizardanim

I agree.  I think that friends will need to switch for certain content, with is rather neat.

I also want to see a (example) dark forest that eats certain kind of characters alive.  Creating a need to learn with every entry from the start, not just 'I leveled to tier 4 in another area, I should win here'.  Having that kind of danger sounds exciting.

Allein

This is how I'm seeing it as well. They saw the good and bad with GW2 and aren't going to copy the bad mechanics.

Roles will still play a role, maybe one fight needs 3 offense 1 heal 1 defense while another needs 1 offense 1 heal 3 defense.

We will have the freedom to make choices best suited for each situation. Instead of, sorry we got a tank, go roll a healer and get back to us in a few months.

Rusque

Way to describe gw2.

 

The only reason GW2 devolves into zerg-fests is because players don't care and aren't incentivized to play any other way. That's exactly how GW2 functions, you can take a bunker build, healing build, and 3 dps and play out every encounter just like you described. But why? It's faster and easier to just go full zerker and drop those mobs quickly.

There needs to be a reason to take on those roles otherwise players will simply adapt to the most efficient method of fighting mobs.

For example, if heals draw a lot of aggro so that the tank can't hold aggro, then just drop the tank and bring 2 healers to heal each other while dps kill mobs. Or, if the mobs don't do enough damage, then one healer heals themselves while 4 people dps.

People always look for the path of least resistance and that's a player problem not a game design problem.

Arskaaa

we will see.

EnScheff

Originally posted by Rusque

Way to describe gw2.

 

The only reason GW2 devolves into zerg-fests is because players don't care and aren't incentivized to play any other way. That's exactly how GW2 functions, you can take a bunker build, healing build, and 3 dps and play out every encounter just like you described. But why? It's faster and easier to just go full zerker and drop those mobs quickly.

There needs to be a reason to take on those roles otherwise players will simply adapt to the most efficient method of fighting mobs.

For example, if heals draw a lot of aggro so that the tank can't hold aggro, then just drop the tank and bring 2 healers to heal each other while dps kill mobs. Or, if the mobs don't do enough damage, then one healer heals themselves while 4 people dps.

People always look for the path of least resistance and that's a player problem not a game design problem.

That is exactly why the devs will have to balance content like I described. All 3 of my example groups kill at the same speed of 400 DPS, but the groups get safer as you add the Warrior and then the Cleric.

The incentive of safety is there, and the group's DPS doesn't suffer to get that safety.

Of course this all relies on the devs creating mobs that REQUIRE control skills. In GW2 the mobs are all so easy no control skills are needed....you just burn them down. EQN must contain mobs that are dangerous.

SamuraiXIV

Originally posted by EnScheff

I am one of those who are convinced EQN is more likely than not going to be a replay of GW2 zergfest combat based on the devs claiming there will be no tanks or healers. We all know that if defensive players are not required for content, the playerbase will simply go with the highest DPS group builds that allow them to clear content as quickly as possible.

Taking that statement as "MMO fact", here is how I think they might be able to make it work:

Main assumption is that worthwhile mobs are actually dangerous enough to kill non-defensive players rather easily.

First example is a simple max DPS group of 5 Wizards trying to kill a dangerous mob. Going full bore DPS, each Wizard does 100 DPS. However, since they are fighting a dangerous mob, each Wizard has to spend 20% of his/her combat resources (mana, energy, casting times, whatever) casting their Knockback spell to control this dangerous mob. This means each Wizard now effectively does 80 DPS, making the total group DPS 400 (80 x5). The added danger of all 5 members being killed relatively easily is also present. One slip up equals death to the group.

Now let's say another group consists of 4 Wizards and 1 Warrior acting as the tank. The Warrior (max DPS of 80) spends 50% of his combat resources controlling the mob with his Kick and Bash abilities, lowering his DPS to 40. This allows the Wizards to use thier Knockback skills half as often, boosting each of their DPS up to 90. Now the group's total DPS is still 400 (40 from Warrior, 90x4 from Wizards), but the group also benefits by having a beefier member less likely to be killed.

Lastly, we consider the "optimal group" consisting of 1 Warrior, 1 Cleric, and 3 Wizards (to keep the example as simple as possible). The Cleric (max DPS of 80) spends 50% of his time healing the other 4 group members, thus allowing the Wizards to go full burn DPS all the time and crank out their max 100 DPS, and the Warrior to use his Kick less often and crank out 60 DPS. In this optimal group setting the total DPS is still 400 (40 from Cleric, 60 from Warrior, 100x3 from Wizards), but the group benefits from even more safety.

These examples are obviously very simplistic, but you can imagine what happens if you add a buffing class that boosts everyone's DPS by 20%. Or a debuffing class that lowers the mob's DPS so significantly that everyone can go full bore DPS rather than using resources to control the mob. Or what happens when more than one mob comes, thus requiring either a CC class or multiple defensive classes. 

The point is they just might be able to balance this. I have serious doubts, but it may be possible.  

 

So cleric + warrior + 3 wizards is better then give us tank and heal and throw away this nonsense of jackofalltradea bs.

djazzy

Originally posted by Rusque

Way to describe gw2.

 

The only reason GW2 devolves into zerg-fests is because players don't care and aren't incentivized to play any other way. That's exactly how GW2 functions, you can take a bunker build, healing build, and 3 dps and play out every encounter just like you described. But why? It's faster and easier to just go full zerker and drop those mobs quickly.

There needs to be a reason to take on those roles otherwise players will simply adapt to the most efficient method of fighting mobs.

For example, if heals draw a lot of aggro so that the tank can't hold aggro, then just drop the tank and bring 2 healers to heal each other while dps kill mobs. Or, if the mobs don't do enough damage, then one healer heals themselves while 4 people dps.

People always look for the path of least resistance and that's a player problem not a game design problem.

Well I agree mostly here. The main issue I see is encounter design. They have to design encounters with the combat system in mind and that is something GW2 hasn't done very well (with some exceptions).

With better enemy AI and better encounter design then EQNext should be able to alleviate most problems due to the combat differences.

Rusque

Originally posted by EnScheff

Originally posted by Rusque

Way to describe gw2.

 

The only reason GW2 devolves into zerg-fests is because players don't care and aren't incentivized to play any other way. That's exactly how GW2 functions, you can take a bunker build, healing build, and 3 dps and play out every encounter just like you described. But why? It's faster and easier to just go full zerker and drop those mobs quickly.

There needs to be a reason to take on those roles otherwise players will simply adapt to the most efficient method of fighting mobs.

For example, if heals draw a lot of aggro so that the tank can't hold aggro, then just drop the tank and bring 2 healers to heal each other while dps kill mobs. Or, if the mobs don't do enough damage, then one healer heals themselves while 4 people dps.

People always look for the path of least resistance and that's a player problem not a game design problem.

That is exactly why the devs will have to balance content like I described. All 3 of my example groups kill at the same speed of 400 DPS, but the groups get safer as you add the Warrior and then the Cleric.

The incentive of safety is there, and the group's DPS doesn't suffer to get that safety.

Of course this all relies on the devs creating mobs that REQUIRE control skills. In GW2 the mobs are all so easy no control skills are needed....you just burn them down. EQN must contain mobs that are dangerous.

Well not all mobs are created equal in GW2, and you often find mobs (esp in dungeons) that will 1-2 shot you in zerker gear, but the idea is that you just dodge and burn them down.

Developers can't even balance trinity systems to that degree of accuracy, so I'm not sure how they'll be able to get different group orientations matched up like that. If tanks do anywhere near the damage of dps, then everyone will bring tanks and everything will get face tanked with ultimate group safety.

Don't underestimate players (for some reason devs do this all the time), they will look for the optimal way to play and they will find it. Maybe 5 ranged classes standing at max range will burn down a mob before it gets to them, if that becomes the case then it will be expected. Or maybe 5 ranged classes with one of them slowing the mob so they can all kite.