Correct me if I'm mistaken, this is what I interpreted watching the short videos.
All of this means diddly if there isn't on the fly class changes.
The thing people are missing here about the limited action bar is:
Each weapon has skills tied to it and are interchangable on the fly.
It's a multi class system to the core and on the fly.
In GW2 you can select a different weapon and change actions , but you are still the same class.
In EQN:
Play one class= 8 skills and four of them change depending on weapon equipped.
Unlock two classes= 16 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon equipped.
Unlock 10 classes= 80 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon.
Unlock 40 classes= 320 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon.
No you won't have a 320 skill hotbar. But you can cycle through hotbar builds everytime you change a weapon or class on the fly. Each hotbar build is capped at 8. Each class when using the same weapon as another class wields it and plays differently/
Class changes happen outside of combat though in EQN. As I understand it, you are stuck with that bar for the duration of the fight. In GW2 you can switch weapons, sometimes switch elements or kits and get a lot of selection.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, this is what I interpreted watching the short videos.
All of this means diddly if there isn't on the fly class changes.
The thing people are missing here about the limited action bar is:
Each weapon has skills tied to it and are interchangable on the fly.
It's a multi class system to the core and on the fly.
In GW2 you can select a different weapon and change actions , but you are still the same class.
In EQN:
Play one class= 8 skills and four of them change depending on weapon equipped.
Unlock two classes= 16 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon equipped.
Unlock 10 classes= 80 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon.
Unlock 40 classes= 320 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon.
No you won't have a 320 skill hotbar. But you can cycle through hotbar builds everytime you change a weapon or class on the fly. Each hotbar build is capped at 8. Each class when using the same weapon as another class wields it and plays differently/
Class changes happen outside of combat though in EQN. As I understand it, you are stuck with that bar for the duration of the fight. In GW2 you can switch weapons, sometimes switch elements or kits and get a lot of selection.
Ah, well if it's locked to outside of combat. Then I wouldn't really call it multi classing. That's just a class system with customization. It's more traditional and prefered I suppose.
I can see pushing eight buttons with only four being customizable kind of boring then. If the dynamics to each weapon are similar.
Yes, the original UI that lasted less than 2 years before it was overhauled and spell slots were added through AA immediately after. EQ has been using more than 8 for over a decade.
But has been around for 14+ years. I don't see why we need to start w/ a number of skills comparable to recent MMO. I'm fine with starting with a solid core and building from there if it is beneficial to the game design. Who knows, they might give us clicky items or other abilities that aren't related to weapon skill or class skills. Game isn't fully announced yet.
The people who cry about there being less skills in a game, and calling it a 'dumbing down' of games are quite funny.
Tell me; What exactly is Intense or Exciting about watching a row of buttons with timers counting down until you can press them again, and god forbid you dont press it at the right time, it'll screw your whole community-defined perception of the correct order to press said buttons in a rotation.
I'd rather have Iconic attacks, which I can recognize and react to, while LOOKING AT THE CHARACTERS ON SCREEN, not some pretty square buttons.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
Correct me if I'm mistaken, this is what I interpreted watching the short videos.
All of this means diddly if there isn't on the fly class changes.
The thing people are missing here about the limited action bar is:
Each weapon has skills tied to it and are interchangable on the fly.
It's a multi class system to the core and on the fly.
In GW2 you can select a different weapon and change actions , but you are still the same class.
In EQN:
Play one class= 8 skills and four of them change depending on weapon equipped.
Unlock two classes= 16 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon equipped.
Unlock 10 classes= 80 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon.
Unlock 40 classes= 320 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon.
No you won't have a 320 skill hotbar. But you can cycle through hotbar builds everytime you change a weapon or class on the fly. Each hotbar build is capped at 8. Each class when using the same weapon as another class wields it and plays differently/
Class changes happen outside of combat though in EQN. As I understand it, you are stuck with that bar for the duration of the fight. In GW2 you can switch weapons, sometimes switch elements or kits and get a lot of selection.
Ah, well if it's locked to outside of combat. Then I wouldn't really call it multi classing. That's just a class system with customization. It's more traditional and prefered I suppose.
I can see pushing eight buttons with only four being customizable kind of boring then. If the dynamics to each weapon are similar.
Yeah that's my worry too. They said there are two weapons per class, but I don't know if that is something you can switch back and forth too while fighting.
The people who cry about there being less skills in a game, and calling it a 'dumbing down' of games are quite funny.
Tell me; What exactly is Intense or Exciting about watching a row of buttons with timers counting down until you can press them again, and god forbid you dont press it at the right time, it'll screw your whole community-defined perception of the correct order to press said buttons in a rotation.
I'd rather have Iconic attacks, which I can recognize and react to, while LOOKING AT THE CHARACTERS ON SCREEN, not some pretty square buttons.
Iconic attacks that you will do over and over again with even less variation than the massive toolbar. I'm sure you have 8 favorite meals, but you would get tired of them if that was all you had to eat.
The people who cry about there being less skills in a game, and calling it a 'dumbing down' of games are quite funny.
Tell me; What exactly is Intense or Exciting about watching a row of buttons with timers counting down until you can press them again, and god forbid you dont press it at the right time, it'll screw your whole community-defined perception of the correct order to press said buttons in a rotation.
I'd rather have Iconic attacks, which I can recognize and react to, while LOOKING AT THE CHARACTERS ON SCREEN, not some pretty square buttons.
Hmm I don't know how but I can gauge a CD almost without looking at the button. I do not stare at my skills to watch the cd but watch combat. I do however look at my group HP bar more often then my skill bar. I doubt you can heal without looking at your groups HP bars .
Every single one of the major mmo's are looking to release on the new Consoles. So there is your cause and effect.
Next you shoudl start a thread about how this trend is going to lead to less deep and rewarding game play.
Agreed, but what I dont understand is why people rather use a console if they want to spend houres playing an mmo than playing on a pc where it must be alot easyer to chat whith friends than with a console, it would take me 20 minutes to type "Hi mate how are you? do you want to do the Goliat bat quest part5? we meet in 15 minutes at New Horn Eastern" Gees dont think I could type that in 20 minutes with a joistick.
The people who cry about there being less skills in a game, and calling it a 'dumbing down' of games are quite funny.
Tell me; What exactly is Intense or Exciting about watching a row of buttons with timers counting down until you can press them again, and god forbid you dont press it at the right time, it'll screw your whole community-defined perception of the correct order to press said buttons in a rotation.
I'd rather have Iconic attacks, which I can recognize and react to, while LOOKING AT THE CHARACTERS ON SCREEN, not some pretty square buttons.
Hmm I don't know how but I can gauge a CD almost without looking at the button. I do not stare at my skills to watch the cd but watch combat. I do however look at my group HP bar more often then my skill bar. I doubt you can heal without looking at your groups HP bars .
It's possible via color coded outlines around characters and character stance animations.
Green outline= Healthy
Yellow= Caution
Red=Brink of death
Animation stance for healthy= Good posture
Caution= Slightly hunched over
Danger= Beat up lol
Bit those could be difficult to see in 20-60 man raid lol.
Every single one of the major mmo's are looking to release on the new Consoles. So there is your cause and effect.
Next you shoudl start a thread about how this trend is going to lead to less deep and rewarding game play.
Agreed, but what I dont understand is why people rather use a console if they want to spend houres playing an mmo than playing on a pc where it must be alot easyer to chat whith friends than with a console, it would take me 20 minutes to type "Hi mate how are you? do you want to do the Goliat bat quest part5? we meet in 15 minutes at New Horn Eastern" Gees dont think I could type that in 20 minutes with a joistick.
If Sony makes a controller fully supported for pc they can have the best of both worlds and support voice chat and KB on PS4.
The 8 slots is not due to consoles, that is a design choice.
FFXIV ARR has built seperate UI for controllers and keyboard.
Every single one of the major mmo's are looking to release on the new Consoles. So there is your cause and effect.
Next you shoudl start a thread about how this trend is going to lead to less deep and rewarding game play.
Agreed, but what I dont understand is why people rather use a console if they want to spend houres playing an mmo than playing on a pc where it must be alot easyer to chat whith friends than with a console, it would take me 20 minutes to type "Hi mate how are you? do you want to do the Goliat bat quest part5? we meet in 15 minutes at New Horn Eastern" Gees dont think I could type that in 20 minutes with a joistick.
If Sony makes a controller fully supported for pc they can have the best of both worlds and support voice chat and KB on PS4.
The 8 slots is not due to consoles, that is a design choice.
FFXIV ARR has built seperate UI for controllers and keyboard.
Cross hotbar= 16 skill hotbar for controller.
Standard hotbar UI for keyboards.
Ok but then the ps4 is very soon or maybe at release very less powerfull than a pc.
Sort of true. Consoles will never keep up with the most powerful PC because they update in 5 to ten year cycle and not every few months. But most people game on low-mid tier PC which the new consoles are comparable in power to, Mid tier PC.
IF sony were to aim at the super computer tier. That already limits the possible playerbase substantially, right out of the gate. Which is why WoW did it like they did.
Gameplay and access to gameplay trump the shiny everytime.
Every single one of the major mmo's are looking to release on the new Consoles. So there is your cause and effect.
Next you shoudl start a thread about how this trend is going to lead to less deep and rewarding game play.
Agreed, but what I dont understand is why people rather use a console if they want to spend houres playing an mmo than playing on a pc where it must be alot easyer to chat whith friends than with a console, it would take me 20 minutes to type "Hi mate how are you? do you want to do the Goliat bat quest part5? we meet in 15 minutes at New Horn Eastern" Gees dont think I could type that in 20 minutes with a joistick.
You can use a USB keyboard on consoles to chat, thats how final fantasy 11 and 14 players on consoles chat.
Every single one of the major mmo's are looking to release on the new Consoles. So there is your cause and effect.
Next you shoudl start a thread about how this trend is going to lead to less deep and rewarding game play.
Agreed, but what I dont understand is why people rather use a console if they want to spend houres playing an mmo than playing on a pc where it must be alot easyer to chat whith friends than with a console, it would take me 20 minutes to type "Hi mate how are you? do you want to do the Goliat bat quest part5? we meet in 15 minutes at New Horn Eastern" Gees dont think I could type that in 20 minutes with a joistick.
If Sony makes a controller fully supported for pc they can have the best of both worlds and support voice chat and KB on PS4.
The 8 slots is not due to consoles, that is a design choice.
FFXIV ARR has built seperate UI for controllers and keyboard.
Cross hotbar= 16 skill hotbar for controller.
Standard hotbar UI for keyboards.
Ok but then the ps4 is very soon or maybe at release very less powerfull than a pc.
Ok but most people play on low end PCs anyway, not everyone who plays a few games on PC are enthusiasts. Which is one of the reasons why WoW is so popular.
Every single one of the major mmo's are looking to release on the new Consoles. So there is your cause and effect.
Next you shoudl start a thread about how this trend is going to lead to less deep and rewarding game play.
Agreed, but what I dont understand is why people rather use a console if they want to spend houres playing an mmo than playing on a pc where it must be alot easyer to chat whith friends than with a console, it would take me 20 minutes to type "Hi mate how are you? do you want to do the Goliat bat quest part5? we meet in 15 minutes at New Horn Eastern" Gees dont think I could type that in 20 minutes with a joistick.
If Sony makes a controller fully supported for pc they can have the best of both worlds and support voice chat and KB on PS4.
The 8 slots is not due to consoles, that is a design choice.
FFXIV ARR has built seperate UI for controllers and keyboard.
Cross hotbar= 16 skill hotbar for controller.
Standard hotbar UI for keyboards.
Ok but then the ps4 is very soon or maybe at release very less powerfull than a pc.
You think that the PS4 will be less powerful than a PC? True for the top of the line PCs but for the vast majority the PS4 will be much superior to their current rig. Very few build their own rigs or are willing to shell out thousands of dollars for prebuilts and the PS4 will cost what.... $500? Consules have caught up to PCs and MMOs the are playable on both the PC and the console will be much more common.
Sort of true. Consoles will never keep up with the most powerful PC because they update in 5 to ten year cycle and not every few months. But most people game on low-mid tier PC which the new consoles are comparable in power to, Mid tier PC.
IF sony were to aim at the super computer tier. That already limits the possible playerbase substantially, right out of the gate. Which is why WoW did it like they did.
Gameplay and access to gameplay trump the shiny everytime.
You will be able to buy a pc with lot more Power for same cash as ps4 cost for less money. If you rather use the console then you have to buy very expensive mouse and keyboard that fits.Those mouse and keyboard you take with you from your old computer when you buy a new.
Every single one of the major mmo's are looking to release on the new Consoles. So there is your cause and effect.
Next you shoudl start a thread about how this trend is going to lead to less deep and rewarding game play.
Agreed, but what I dont understand is why people rather use a console if they want to spend houres playing an mmo than playing on a pc where it must be alot easyer to chat whith friends than with a console, it would take me 20 minutes to type "Hi mate how are you? do you want to do the Goliat bat quest part5? we meet in 15 minutes at New Horn Eastern" Gees dont think I could type that in 20 minutes with a joistick.
If Sony makes a controller fully supported for pc they can have the best of both worlds and support voice chat and KB on PS4.
The 8 slots is not due to consoles, that is a design choice.
FFXIV ARR has built seperate UI for controllers and keyboard.
Cross hotbar= 16 skill hotbar for controller.
Standard hotbar UI for keyboards.
Ok but then the ps4 is very soon or maybe at release very less powerfull than a pc.
Ok but most people play on low end PCs anyway, not everyone who plays a few games on PC are enthusiasts. Which is one of the reasons why WoW is so popular.
Yeah, the original FFXIV tried to ignore this. It had the attitude of screw optimization and what-not. Throw more power at it. That led to many unable to run it properly and even brought some powerful PC to their knees.
If the combat system in EQNext doesn’t require players to work together in order to develop interesting strategies and tactics, then I won’t be spending any money on this game.
I hope they slow the pace of combat down a little bit and make each individual monster relatively powerful when compared to each individual player. In an action game like Diablo, it makes sense for the players to be able to easily slaughter large amounts of monsters at one time. In such games, the player is a demigod and should have near godlike power. However, in a mmorpg like Everquest, it doesn’t make sense for each player to be so powerful. In Everquest each player is supposed to be just another adventurer, not a god’s chosen one. For many of us, roleplaying a more down to earth character is ultimately more interesting and makes more sense in a massively multiplayer game where thousands of other characters are also a part of the story.
The combat system should reflect this reality: most monsters should have commensurate power to most players.
Sort of true. Consoles will never keep up with the most powerful PC because they update in 5 to ten year cycle and not every few months. But most people game on low-mid tier PC which the new consoles are comparable in power to, Mid tier PC.
IF sony were to aim at the super computer tier. That already limits the possible playerbase substantially, right out of the gate. Which is why WoW did it like they did.
Gameplay and access to gameplay trump the shiny everytime.
You will be able to buy a pc with lot more Power for same cash as ps4 cost for less money. If you rather use the console then you have to buy very expensive mouse and keyboard that fits.Those mouse and keyboard you take with you from your old computer when you buy a new.
The ps4 cost 100 less than my I5, 8GB ram, 500GB PC. And the ps4 has GDDR5. My pc didn't come with that. I don't know how weak or powerful the PS4 processor is in comparison to the I5 though.
You're assuming that fewer abilities = easier combat, and I don't necessarily think that's true. While fewer abilities does simplify combat to a certain extent, I do believe that a system like this can be very deep as well. What I would like to see is more action based combat with skill shots and dodging/parrying. To me, a combat system like this would be great because managing 40+ abilities just isn't fun to me. I can do it, and it's not terribly difficult. But it makes combat feel like more sterile in my opinion.
Today I will pose this question. Is the new trend of MMOs, action oriented, fewer skills, and less hotbars? If you look at the old juggernauts of the MMO world, EQ 1, EQ 2, and Vanilla WoW, you literally were able to use all of your skills (usually 30+) at any given point (which most of the time, your rotation consist of the same 6-8 skills to maximize dmg). You were not limited to 8, 10, or 12. Fast forward 10 - 12 years later and you see games like GW2 with this action styled dodging and rolling around, while only being able to use a set amount of your skills during a single combat period.
Is this the way MMOs are leaning? What I think to be a more casualized, less intensive, easier learning style? Are MMO companies attempting to make combat more fun? Or are they instead trying to make it easier for the younger (or older) gamer?
Originally posted by evilastro If you can dumb down those 30 abilities into one damage / threat / heal priority supermacro, what's the point? Have yet to play a hotbar game that I haven't been able to supermacro. I'd rather have 8 meaningful and strategic skills like in EQN or GW1, than 30+ skills that get shoved into one button like on EQ, EQ2, WoW, Rift etc.
+1
Lol, what a crock of shit!
Supermacro my ass.
Rift was the closest game to "Supermacro" I love seeing the posts where people said, I put everything in a macro and got bored. Well, that's because you aren't supposed to do that. Macros are supposed to make things convenient, not take the need to think away. And that lead to some serious failed players. You can always tell the ones using their "Supermacro" They would always be the ones to break CC. Or they'd be happily spamming their "supermacro" in a dungeon and the mob they are targeting dies while they spam and start hitting on a group of mobs that weren't supposed to be agro'd yet. Yep, you can always tell the ones.
Yeah, Supermacro my ass is right. More like Stupormacro
When used properly, Macros are great. I completely missed them in GW2.
Comments
Class changes happen outside of combat though in EQN. As I understand it, you are stuck with that bar for the duration of the fight. In GW2 you can switch weapons, sometimes switch elements or kits and get a lot of selection.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Ah, well if it's locked to outside of combat. Then I wouldn't really call it multi classing. That's just a class system with customization. It's more traditional and prefered I suppose.
I can see pushing eight buttons with only four being customizable kind of boring then. If the dynamics to each weapon are similar.
But has been around for 14+ years. I don't see why we need to start w/ a number of skills comparable to recent MMO. I'm fine with starting with a solid core and building from there if it is beneficial to the game design. Who knows, they might give us clicky items or other abilities that aren't related to weapon skill or class skills. Game isn't fully announced yet.
The people who cry about there being less skills in a game, and calling it a 'dumbing down' of games are quite funny.
Tell me; What exactly is Intense or Exciting about watching a row of buttons with timers counting down until you can press them again, and god forbid you dont press it at the right time, it'll screw your whole community-defined perception of the correct order to press said buttons in a rotation.
I'd rather have Iconic attacks, which I can recognize and react to, while LOOKING AT THE CHARACTERS ON SCREEN, not some pretty square buttons.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
Yeah that's my worry too. They said there are two weapons per class, but I don't know if that is something you can switch back and forth too while fighting.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Iconic attacks that you will do over and over again with even less variation than the massive toolbar. I'm sure you have 8 favorite meals, but you would get tired of them if that was all you had to eat.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Hmm I don't know how but I can gauge a CD almost without looking at the button. I do not stare at my skills to watch the cd but watch combat. I do however look at my group HP bar more often then my skill bar. I doubt you can heal without looking at your groups HP bars .
Short answer to your question.
Console Controllers.
Every single one of the major mmo's are looking to release on the new Consoles. So there is your cause and effect.
Next you shoudl start a thread about how this trend is going to lead to less deep and rewarding game play.
Agreed, but what I dont understand is why people rather use a console if they want to spend houres playing an mmo than playing on a pc where it must be alot easyer to chat whith friends than with a console, it would take me 20 minutes to type "Hi mate how are you? do you want to do the Goliat bat quest part5? we meet in 15 minutes at New Horn Eastern" Gees dont think I could type that in 20 minutes with a joistick.
It's possible via color coded outlines around characters and character stance animations.
Green outline= Healthy
Yellow= Caution
Red=Brink of death
Animation stance for healthy= Good posture
Caution= Slightly hunched over
Danger= Beat up lol
Bit those could be difficult to see in 20-60 man raid lol.
If Sony makes a controller fully supported for pc they can have the best of both worlds and support voice chat and KB on PS4.
The 8 slots is not due to consoles, that is a design choice.
FFXIV ARR has built seperate UI for controllers and keyboard.
Cross hotbar= 16 skill hotbar for controller.
Standard hotbar UI for keyboards.
Ok but then the ps4 is very soon or maybe at release very less powerfull than a pc.
Sort of true. Consoles will never keep up with the most powerful PC because they update in 5 to ten year cycle and not every few months. But most people game on low-mid tier PC which the new consoles are comparable in power to, Mid tier PC.
IF sony were to aim at the super computer tier. That already limits the possible playerbase substantially, right out of the gate. Which is why WoW did it like they did.
Gameplay and access to gameplay trump the shiny everytime.
You can use a USB keyboard on consoles to chat, thats how final fantasy 11 and 14 players on consoles chat.
Ok but most people play on low end PCs anyway, not everyone who plays a few games on PC are enthusiasts. Which is one of the reasons why WoW is so popular.
You think that the PS4 will be less powerful than a PC? True for the top of the line PCs but for the vast majority the PS4 will be much superior to their current rig. Very few build their own rigs or are willing to shell out thousands of dollars for prebuilts and the PS4 will cost what.... $500? Consules have caught up to PCs and MMOs the are playable on both the PC and the console will be much more common.
You will be able to buy a pc with lot more Power for same cash as ps4 cost for less money. If you rather use the console then you have to buy very expensive mouse and keyboard that fits.Those mouse and keyboard you take with you from your old computer when you buy a new.
Yeah, the original FFXIV tried to ignore this. It had the attitude of screw optimization and what-not. Throw more power at it. That led to many unable to run it properly and even brought some powerful PC to their knees.
If the combat system in EQNext doesn’t require players to work together in order to develop interesting strategies and tactics, then I won’t be spending any money on this game.
I hope they slow the pace of combat down a little bit and make each individual monster relatively powerful when compared to each individual player. In an action game like Diablo, it makes sense for the players to be able to easily slaughter large amounts of monsters at one time. In such games, the player is a demigod and should have near godlike power. However, in a mmorpg like Everquest, it doesn’t make sense for each player to be so powerful. In Everquest each player is supposed to be just another adventurer, not a god’s chosen one. For many of us, roleplaying a more down to earth character is ultimately more interesting and makes more sense in a massively multiplayer game where thousands of other characters are also a part of the story.
The combat system should reflect this reality: most monsters should have commensurate power to most players.
The ps4 cost 100 less than my I5, 8GB ram, 500GB PC. And the ps4 has GDDR5. My pc didn't come with that. I don't know how weak or powerful the PS4 processor is in comparison to the I5 though.
Rift was the closest game to "Supermacro" I love seeing the posts where people said, I put everything in a macro and got bored. Well, that's because you aren't supposed to do that. Macros are supposed to make things convenient, not take the need to think away. And that lead to some serious failed players. You can always tell the ones using their "Supermacro" They would always be the ones to break CC. Or they'd be happily spamming their "supermacro" in a dungeon and the mob they are targeting dies while they spam and start hitting on a group of mobs that weren't supposed to be agro'd yet. Yep, you can always tell the ones.
Yeah, Supermacro my ass is right. More like Stupormacro
When used properly, Macros are great. I completely missed them in GW2.
Back in my day we didn't even HAVE action bars!
source: the intertrons