So you think a group of charging vikings would just charge and then stop in front othe their enemies and then swing their axes..
Now, lets start with charging vikings. Hell, lets start with any historical force charging into melee.
The troops actually -did- stop (mostly) in front of their enemies. Shieldwalls exist for a reason, you know? Frenchies were most famous for charging, but they lost their most famous battles for a reason... I wonder why. Charging and Blitzkrieg only work if you catch your opponent unaware or are flanking them.
Check any historical document about medieval combat, or now that you first mentioned it, vikings. Thanks to some records being kept safe, we can actually study the past and with our modern technology, we can find physical proof to many things.
Now, charging blindly into unarmed civilians? That works. Charging into anyone holding a pointy object towards you? That's not so smart. Then again, compared to other military forces of their time, Vikings also became known by another formation called Wedge / Boar snout / swine array (though less popular than the shieldwall.) Wedge as a formation has been used since people becan to fight in masses. Now, I won't be linking more info about this, but check Roman Empire's military tactics.
Quote:
"The Shieldwall
Once battle was joined, each side would form a line of warriors, perhaps several deep, formed into the "shield wall". Each warrior overlaps his shield on both sides, presenting a wall which is strong enough to stop a rushing opponent from penetrating...
With many spears in the lines, the opponent opposite and those up to four down the line were within reach, making combat frantic and deadly. To step out of the line was to die. Retreat of even a few feet could lead to loss of initiative, and would eventually result in a wholesale withdrawal or even rout. With men standing so close and in several ranks, movement was limited, and even highly trained warriors would find it difficult to manoeuver quickly on the battlefield. As a result, outflanking moves were common, and unless stopped quickly could prove overwhelming."
The shield wall and spears was the best defense against a group of charging crazy people with axes yes.. but stil if you charged such a wall you owuld not root yourself to the spot when attacking, you would be pushnig forward all the time ti try and brake the wall. Even then as stated above the best way to brake a shield wall was with movement but by flanking it..
Originally posted by Caldrin
Movement is part of combat and always has been... rooting your self to the ground to attack is not natural. especially in melee combat where if you did that you would end up dead.. yes with modern ranged weapons its good to stop and fire but then you move again and keep moving otherwise your dead.
Movement is a part of combat, indeed, but the problem here is that MMOs like WoW and whatever promote the traditional circle-strafing-blackjacking-fests what we "pros" (kidding) learned back in the days of Thief 1. Very few games promote realistic combat or movement, which is truely a shame - it's probably one of the hardest things to simulate due to all the variations.
Mount&Blade series has always tried to simulate realistic combat (while still being an RPG) and has done that amazingly well, but sadly it's still quite limited by the technology used in the game's engine.
And moving a bit off-topic (away from MMOs) ArmA-series simulates realistic modern infantry movement and ranged combat in amazing depth, compared to stuff like Call of Duty or Battlefield where you jump off buildings and instantly open parachutes or run and gun.
I'm one for full realism in my video games. I enjoy milsims and slow paced strategic games, but I also love RPGs and "gamey" mechanics. The problem here is that majority of players want to have their games (and movies) cool and fun (and more than often Epic, like those Lord of the rings things linked earlier.) The fun is not the problem, but because devs often take the easy way out, they just do the cool factor with a lot of explosions and big special effects. - I ask you this, wouldn't it be fun to have a massive MMO with respawns and all, but more realistic combat? Formations the size of warbands? Deadly combat. Slower, tactical, brutal combat. No jumping, strafing and spamming instant cast spells at people and watching their hit points go down.
Movement of an individual fighter becomes more and more critical when we talk about smaller skirmishes. You do not want to stand still against a single opponent, but when we are talking about units and medieval combat, -and- when we include the risk of dying, losing or morale in theory.. well, suddenly things go to a whole new level, don't they? Of course we are talking about games, so morale, death and such do not really matter. But if we talk about realistic combat, shouldn't we always strive for something more? The games what I play online include suppression and "morale" and I absolutely love it.
DDO is the only more traditional MMO what has some sense in it's melee. If you move, you suffer a penalty to your chance to hit. If you attack from standing still, no such penalty is taken. If you roll to evade a blow, you gain a chance to evade it and so on.
I don't think we need to return to modern combat, but lets just say that you don't want to move in the open and you want to stick to cover. It's all even better if you can stick to cover, stay still and aim at something. Moving, exhausting yourself and then trying to aim precisely is not something a majority of soldiers is trained to do.
You really dont want to stay in the same spot al lthe time thats not a good thing, yes you need to stay in cover but you need to keep moving otherwise you will die..
PS. Perhaps we should ask ourselves: Do we want our characters to be heroes who do things what no normal people do, or do we want something different for a change? Do we want realism and how much of it do we want? Most important; What do we enjoy in games?
I vote for Variety. I want unrealistic games, realistic games, simulations and I definately want RPGs. Sadly, I no longer want more WoW and Everquest 2 clones. Or GW2 like games...
PPS. Amen to Rusque well above there!
Anyway i also enjoy games with mroe realistic combat like yourself.. I am not a fan of the rooting combat of tera or a massive fan of being able to run around peopel in circles while attacking.
If I had to choose between tera type combat or darkfall type combat where you can run circles i would choose darkfall as tera combat jsut seems really wrong to me..
Being able to run around in circles while swinging your blade or axe or whatever is not qutie right but rooting a character to the spot while is swings is even worse..
This, in my opinion, depends on what rules the game in question is using.
Lets take a few examples:
Neverwinter Nights / KOTOR -series. Rules based on pen and paper rpgs. The combat is made beautiful and "dynamic" through animations and the flow of the game, with the characters parrying, dodging and attacking fluently. But! In theory, you are locked in place when attacking and can be outflanked and outmanouvered, which in my opinion is beautiful for an RPG.
The Witcher 2: Best singleplayer RPG I have ever played. Best Action combat I have ever played. You have free 360 degress movement, but as soon as you hit attack (Wether heavy or light), you are locked to it for the duration of the animation (not locked in place, since most attacks, depending on the position of your enemy, move you towards that enemy and make the combat quite beautiful actually.) I also believe you can cancel attacks and so on with the new combat mod, but I haven't played it so much in the recent days.
Sadly I can't go more in depth, but the following two examples have to be mentioned.
Dark Messiah: My second favourite singleplayer game. You have free movement all the time in combat, but performing heavy attacks is linked to your movement direction. Check youtube videos of the game.
Mount & Blade: As you said, Mount&Blade does not have bunnying and attacking, but it simulates physics. Weapons have weight and the arc, motion and distance of the swing all matter. Speed, direction and movement of the characters striking and receiving the hit matter. Example: Poking someone who tries charging at you with a polearm will definately stagger them, deal huge increased damage and so on. Also, rushed, fast swings aren't as effective as well prepared ones. Armor values, damage types and all those matter too.
Mount & Blade: As you said, Mount&Blade does not have bunnying and attacking, but it simulates physics. Weapons have weight and the arc, motion and distance of the swing all matter. Speed, direction and movement of the characters striking and receiving the hit matter. Example: Poking someone who tries charging at you with a polearm will definately stagger them, deal huge increased damage and so on. Also, rushed, fast swings aren't as effective as well prepared ones. Armor values, damage types and all those matter too.
If only someone who knew what they where doing could bring this type of combat to an mmorpg.. we can dream i guess but maybe one day.. or maybe someone can buy mortal online and fix it haha.
The fireballs being launched from palms, the resurrecting of our allies after they have died, the conjuring and control of demons, the storing of dozens and dozens of items in our pockets...
the instant teleportation from one zone (or even dimension) to another, the turning of foes into sheep, the shape shifting into multiple animals, and the ability to dualwield light sabers ALL get a pass.....But Goddamit, moving while swinging an axe is UNREALISTIC.
LOL... I was thinking the exact same thing while reading this thread. The OP is right that moving while delivering a hard blow is nearly impossible but this isn't real life. Devs are trying to make a game fun first and foremost. Realism will always take a backseat to fun and engaging game play. Besides it's about time something was done as the EQ model of standing in one spot while you mash your abilities in your favored rotation for every single fight has become very stale. Combat is probably what you'll be doing for 80%-90% of your time spent in game. It's about time they started to look at the old systems and improved upon them. Standing in one spot while mashing buttons simply gets boring and tedious after you've done it a thousand times in a game.
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter If you want realism in MMORPGs forget wearing heavy armor and running or swimming or fighting for more than 1 hour at a time.
Yeah, sure. But why can't there be a compromise between gameplay and realism? See Project Reality for BF2 as an example.
Then again, at least my conversation here was more about PC games in general, not just MMOs. Once again I must say that I am, sadly, disappointed by 90% of the MMOs what I touch these days.
Full realism is a bad idea for an MMO, because your typical MMO players want a character they can hold on to for as long as they play. Dying is no fun for them and losing a character is no-go. Besides, I doubt many of us would enjoy what you just said, but lets return to the physical restrictions.
ArmA 2 has a mod called ACE - Advanced Combat Environment. It includes everything from being knocked unconcious by pressure from explosions etc. (See: M1A1 safe distance required at the front.) to losing your hearing and the most advanced stamina system in FPS games so far.
The more you carry, the more tired you get. The more you run, the more tired you get. You can walk for miles, but sprinting with full gear won't take you long. Also, your character matters - special forces and such can go on much longer than some poor insurgents. Being knocked out from bloodloss or shock when being hit is common. Being suppressed makes you lose any hope of aiming accurately. A single shrapnel can take you down. It's brutal, it's different, it's amazing. The amount of teamwork alone makes the whole experience different.
PS. Now, I must say I am a fan of Fantasy, especially Dark medieval Fantasy and thus, I enjoy magic in my RPGs. But! I want the combat to make sense. I don't want games where the laws of physics are thrown out, ala WoW (You have falling damage, that's about it. But oversized weapons and warriors jumping, attacking, circlestrafing and hitting ground, causing everyone to be stunned and almost shooting lightning out of their rear is normal.)
So, I ask this; Why can't RPGs try to stay true to their worlds? I do not find the points what I mentioned above immersive or fun, but I understand that the normal, casual player finds that epic and awesome.
PPS. Shooting a longbow on the run or while jumping ala WoW = mind blown.
PPPS. Weapon Trails. Who the **** invented them? Why must they, by default, plague every video game? I don't want my games to be like some.. some anime. I never got into those for a reason.
Have you ever seen two people actually get in a fight? Very rarely do they just stand across from each other, don't bother moving, and toss punches....I mean a real fight, with lethal intent....Like when you're in the streets and one guy is feed another guy's face into the wall after pounding him into a huddled mess in the ground and straddling him to punch him more....
We ain't practicing old school you shoot me, I shoot you....
yes because i have gotten into multiple fights, i am a boxing/MMA stuff enthusiast, and i used to spar regularly with people who do MMA. Yes, you need to move around a lot, but when you actually execute an attack for a split second or so your legs are planted on the ground. most of the power you need to deliver an attack comes from your core and your legs so if you do not have proper footing(which rarely happens while you are running) you are not executing the most amount of force that you can. in boxing a lot of the dodging is accomplished by torso and head movement, not necessarily stepping backwards.
Of course, you need to be moving around when you fight, just watch any boxing or mma fight. its bad to have people running circles around you. but when you actually do decide to throw a punch you need to stay put even for a split second. with that said, moving around in games while fighting should be encouraged but when you do decide to attack, a rooting mechanic that makes you stay put for a split second is definitely justified.
now i understand the common misconception everyone is having behind combat fluidity :P
Try fencing. Very active, movement oriented combat. The vast majority of hit occur while moving. This is the result of light weapons and light armor... speed makes up for the difference.
Have you ever seen two people actually get in a fight? Very rarely do they just stand across from each other, don't bother moving, and toss punches....I mean a real fight, with lethal intent....Like when you're in the streets and one guy is feed another guy's face into the wall after pounding him into a huddled mess in the ground and straddling him to punch him more....
We ain't practicing old school you shoot me, I shoot you....
yes because i have gotten into multiple fights, i am a boxing/MMA stuff enthusiast, and i used to spar regularly with people who do MMA. Yes, you need to move around a lot, but when you actually execute an attack for a split second or so your legs are planted on the ground. most of the power you need to deliver an attack comes from your core and your legs so if you do not have proper footing(which rarely happens while you are running) you are not executing the most amount of force that you can. in boxing a lot of the dodging is accomplished by torso and head movement, not necessarily stepping backwards.
Of course, you need to be moving around when you fight, just watch any boxing or mma fight. its bad to have people running circles around you. but when you actually do decide to throw a punch you need to stay put even for a split second. with that said, moving around in games while fighting should be encouraged but when you do decide to attack, a rooting mechanic that makes you stay put for a split second is definitely justified.
now i understand the common misconception everyone is having behind combat fluidity :P
Try fencing. Very active, movement oriented combat. The vast majority of hit occur while moving. This is the result of light weapons and light armor... speed makes up for the difference.
I don't recall ever seeing fencers running in circles or hopping all over the place.
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Have you ever seen two people actually get in a fight? Very rarely do they just stand across from each other, don't bother moving, and toss punches....I mean a real fight, with lethal intent....Like when you're in the streets and one guy is feed another guy's face into the wall after pounding him into a huddled mess in the ground and straddling him to punch him more....
We ain't practicing old school you shoot me, I shoot you....
yes because i have gotten into multiple fights, i am a boxing/MMA stuff enthusiast, and i used to spar regularly with people who do MMA. Yes, you need to move around a lot, but when you actually execute an attack for a split second or so your legs are planted on the ground. most of the power you need to deliver an attack comes from your core and your legs so if you do not have proper footing(which rarely happens while you are running) you are not executing the most amount of force that you can. in boxing a lot of the dodging is accomplished by torso and head movement, not necessarily stepping backwards.
Of course, you need to be moving around when you fight, just watch any boxing or mma fight. its bad to have people running circles around you. but when you actually do decide to throw a punch you need to stay put even for a split second. with that said, moving around in games while fighting should be encouraged but when you do decide to attack, a rooting mechanic that makes you stay put for a split second is definitely justified.
now i understand the common misconception everyone is having behind combat fluidity :P
Try fencing. Very active, movement oriented combat. The vast majority of hit occur while moving. This is the result of light weapons and light armor... speed makes up for the difference.
I don't recall ever seeing fencers running in circles or hopping all over the place.
Have you ever seen two people actually get in a fight? Very rarely do they just stand across from each other, don't bother moving, and toss punches....I mean a real fight, with lethal intent....Like when you're in the streets and one guy is feed another guy's face into the wall after pounding him into a huddled mess in the ground and straddling him to punch him more....
We ain't practicing old school you shoot me, I shoot you....
yes because i have gotten into multiple fights, i am a boxing/MMA stuff enthusiast, and i used to spar regularly with people who do MMA. Yes, you need to move around a lot, but when you actually execute an attack for a split second or so your legs are planted on the ground. most of the power you need to deliver an attack comes from your core and your legs so if you do not have proper footing(which rarely happens while you are running) you are not executing the most amount of force that you can. in boxing a lot of the dodging is accomplished by torso and head movement, not necessarily stepping backwards.
Of course, you need to be moving around when you fight, just watch any boxing or mma fight. its bad to have people running circles around you. but when you actually do decide to throw a punch you need to stay put even for a split second. with that said, moving around in games while fighting should be encouraged but when you do decide to attack, a rooting mechanic that makes you stay put for a split second is definitely justified.
now i understand the common misconception everyone is having behind combat fluidity :P
Sure you are.
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Why did this EVER become a thing? In any kind of real life combat whenever you are executing a strike you have to standing still or at the very least lunging in the direction of the strike (most of the time forward). And casting while moving?? what?? most people cant even walk and eat at the same time how the hell can u expect to do something that requires an extreme amount of concentration while running? Even in FPS games, when you are running and trying to shoot you get penalized in terms of accuracy of your target reticule. I dont know why gamers expect such an unnatural thing to be standard in mmorpg games. You know why in a lot of games the character models look weird while attacking and running? IT'S BECAUSE ITS UNNATURAL AND DOESNT MAKE SENSE. Maybe because people are so used to watching crazy anime shows where people are fighting each other while flying in mid air or while sprinting in a field.
Uhm, you never held a sword in your hand ever, right? Combat have always been about positioning and movement. I can only recommend you to go down to your local ARMA and ask the guys there what they think about the whole thing.
In fact in pen and paper RPGs you use tin figurines to get the combat movement just right. In D&D which most MMOs are based one way or another you can indeed move while fighting and you more or less have too unless you cast spells. Mages and sorcerors are seriously slowed when casting and can only take a step while clerics and pallys can move like ordinary.
However you move slower in combat then you do when running, but you actually do that in some MMOs as well.
I agree about mages but while I am far from a swordmaster I do have trained some and you make no sense about melee.
Ranged combat is preferably done still but there are many good bowmen that easily hit a target from a horse and some that can hit things while walking or even running but it seriously lowers their range.
Moving while fighting in MMOs makes them more fun for me at least even though others have problems with it, but your logical arguments just ain't good enough.
Why did this EVER become a thing? In any kind of real life combat whenever you are executing a strike you have to standing still or at the very least lunging in the direction of the strike (most of the time forward). And casting while moving?? what?? most people cant even walk and eat at the same time how the hell can u expect to do something that requires an extreme amount of concentration while running? Even in FPS games, when you are running and trying to shoot you get penalized in terms of accuracy of your target reticule. I dont know why gamers expect such an unnatural thing to be standard in mmorpg games. You know why in a lot of games the character models look weird while attacking and running? IT'S BECAUSE ITS UNNATURAL AND DOESNT MAKE SENSE. Maybe because people are so used to watching crazy anime shows where people are fighting each other while flying in mid air or while sprinting in a field.
This can be explained easily and quickly.
The majority of MMO's do not have the same timeframe reference we do. For some games ( EQ comes to mind), an entire day is 72 minutes of real time (could be be wrong...my memory is off). Therefore a second of our time, can be infact minutes or hours within the game. What we see is the sped up and fluid result of such actions to prevent having a boxy, or locked-kneed game.
Uhm, you never held a sword in your hand ever, right? Combat have always been about positioning and movement. I can only recommend you to go down to your local ARMA and ask the guys there what they think about the whole thing.
In fact in pen and paper RPGs you use tin figurines to get the combat movement just right. In D&D which most MMOs are based one way or another you can indeed move while fighting and you more or less have too unless you cast spells. Mages and sorcerors are seriously slowed when casting and can only take a step while clerics and pallys can move like ordinary.
However you move slower in combat then you do when running, but you actually do that in some MMOs as well.
I agree about mages but while I am far from a swordmaster I do have trained some and you make no sense about melee.
Ranged combat is preferably done still but there are many good bowmen that easily hit a target from a horse and some that can hit things while walking or even running but it seriously lowers their range.
Moving while fighting in MMOs makes them more fun for me at least even though others have problems with it, but your logical arguments just ain't good enough.
Which edition of D&D are we talking about? Since you brought that up, this just became a "sacred" topic.
In 3.5e, you have Seven possible actions in combat. Full, Standard, Move, Free, Swift, Immediate and Miscellanious. There is no difference between a Cleric and a Wizard casting a spell - both are Standard actions, but then details come into play; Concentration vs attacks of oppoturnity, spell failure due to armor or effects and so on. Some spells also have longer casting times, but these are -very- rare.
However, the point in D&D is this. You move either BEFORE or AFTER taking the action. You can't do both move, attack and move, unless you have the required feat, what makes it all the more tactical. There is no such feat for spells as far as I know though.
D&D also includes much more interesting choises for melee than common MMOs and the older versions didn't have ridiculous attack powers what the Fourth edition introduces (More MMO like, with every attack being a SPECIAL SKILL.)
D&D 3.5e allowed you to use feats in combat, if you had them, that is. Feats such as feint and the like, but there were also basic actions what everyone could take; Charge, ready against movement, action or spell, defensive fighting, full defense and the list goes on. Grappling is a thing what MMOs and most video games have forgotten about completely.
Also, in old editions of D&D, you are not magically slowed down in combat. Your speed is the same 30ft in turn, but running (sprinting) is a separate full-round action. Same as if you would specify it out of combat. Your characters, while out of combat, can't run -everywhere-. Otherwise they will become exhausted and so on.
Everyone talking about Historical Combat should watch a few documentaries followed by some beautifully acted fights.
PS. Sadly, MMOs have forgotten all about the creature sizes too. D&D 3.5e had all the little details right. Size had it's own advantages and penalties. Can anyone here name an MMO other than DDO where halflings or dwarves run slower than humans for example? They disregarded that even in Neverwinter Online and oh god it looks stupid when giant Norn run just as fast as some tiny Asura in Guild Wars 2.
I think I'll just leave this video here. This is what I think of when I see arguments on movement in combat.
Originally posted by Loktofeit
I watched a Lord of the Rings movie and this Ranger slid down the railing of a staircase, firing off three arrows in a row while doing it, and when he got to the bottom he stabbed a bad guy in the face with an arrow. That was cool to see. It's also cool to do stuff like that in MMOs.
There's realism and there's fun. Certain levels of realism minutia most people don't give a flaming crap about.
Legolas was an elf archer, not one of the Dunedain... c'mon, get it right.
As far as realistic movement in combat, let's see what some of the masters have to say:
Muhammad Ali: "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee"
Bruce Lee: "Be like water"
Sun Tzu: "Fall like a thunderbolt"
Yep, sounds like they were all standing still. By the way, MMA =/= real combat. It's a sport. Trying to apply those principles to videogames in some sort of realism argument is misguided at best. At most, you may be able to develop some type of warrior philosophy from your experiences... otherwise consider that there are thousands of years of martial philosophy at your disposal; are you claiming to know more than they do? What about arts like Wing Chun, traditional Japanese Jujutsu, or Angola Capoeira? These all seem much more "real" to me than two bros in a ring knocking the *&$% out of each other. To each his own, I guess.
/2c
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Why did this EVER become a thing? In any kind of real life combat whenever you are executing a strike you have to standing still or at the very least lunging in the direction of the strike (most of the time forward). And casting while moving?? what?? most people cant even walk and eat at the same time how the hell can u expect to do something that requires an extreme amount of concentration while running? Even in FPS games, when you are running and trying to shoot you get penalized in terms of accuracy of your target reticule. I dont know why gamers expect such an unnatural thing to be standard in mmorpg games. You know why in a lot of games the character models look weird while attacking and running? IT'S BECAUSE ITS UNNATURAL AND DOESNT MAKE SENSE. Maybe because people are so used to watching crazy anime shows where people are fighting each other while flying in mid air or while sprinting in a field.
Unrealistic is not being able to move while performing an attack...
you're dodging attacks, bullets, etc... you're moving forward while executing an attack, walking sideways... You're usually walking backwards or sideways when trying to block attacks with weapons...
Even with firearms, you're never in the same spot when shooting.
Tho, concidering casters... They're not real anyways so why should they be limited by realism? :P There would be no casters if your realism would have a say in the matter.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
Comparing to real life is kind of useless. In real life you are not standing toe to toe shooting fireballs at each other. And when shooting a gun, one bullet in real life is deadly, which means you have a reason to make the first shot count. In a MMO, you need multiple hits and are more busy with not getting hit yourself, for this reason you want to move while shooting.
As for real life fencing and other melee weapons, it depends on the style in real life how people move, but they certainly don't stand still.
So stop the real life comparisons please. With the way health (being chipped away at with hits) works in MMO's, moving during combat makes sense. Standing still to play punching bag, doesn't.
And why now? Because server hardware and internet connections can finally cope with it in a massively multiplayer environment.
Watch this and tell me if they aren't moving, not only that, their armor can weigh up to between 70-90ib with the shield and sword, I know my chainmail I have alone is 40 and I don't have platemail..
Watch this and tell me if they aren't moving, not only that, their armor can weigh up to between 70-90ib with the shield and sword, I know my chainmail I have alone is 40 and I don't have platemail..
hahaha, now that is freaking awesome!
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
All good action games always had rooting since forever for that very reason imo.
That was until the ADHD gen though...
Don't bother, they either wont understand what you're saying( not willing to listen cuz it gets in the way of their Fun... You know... Fun! WEEEEEE! /sigh)) or simply insist that they are right and you or wrong. No matter if attacking in pettry much all its form needs to be done either still or firmly grounded to have any kind of accuracy or power behind it.
Whatever... Moving on.
This. Seriously.
God of War, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry, etc. In every one of those games you lose free movement as soon as you execute a move. Some moves may propel you forward or in some other direction, but you don't just get to move around any way you want while executing all your moves.
The same applies with EVERY single fighting game, yet nobody who plays fighting game feels like their characters are rooted in place.
When talking about an Action game combat system (Tera, etc.), yes there is much truth to this. Rooting in place for attacking has a purpose of adding the need for timing and planning.
Removing roots just means you're endlessly circle strafing while mindlessly smashing 1,2,3: that isn't adding depth. If anything it stripped depth out since your need to time and plan are really no longer a concern.
But when talking about the traditional standing in place while dodge-and-block are entirely RNG controlled is a different matter, I think. I could see it going either way. I want to say games like Diablo 2 were like this, but I actually think they had roots for most of their attacks; just very, very short ones. I can't quite be sure, since I just whirlwinded around everywhere (which while fun, wasn't anywhere near the realm of "deep", heh).
good post.
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Have you ever seen two people actually get in a fight? Very rarely do they just stand across from each other, don't bother moving, and toss punches....I mean a real fight, with lethal intent....Like when you're in the streets and one guy is feed another guy's face into the wall after pounding him into a huddled mess in the ground and straddling him to punch him more....
We ain't practicing old school you shoot me, I shoot you....
yes because i have gotten into multiple fights, i am a boxing/MMA stuff enthusiast, and i used to spar regularly with people who do MMA. Yes, you need to move around a lot, but when you actually execute an attack for a split second or so your legs are planted on the ground. most of the power you need to deliver an attack comes from your core and your legs so if you do not have proper footing(which rarely happens while you are running) you are not executing the most amount of force that you can. in boxing a lot of the dodging is accomplished by torso and head movement, not necessarily stepping backwards.
Of course, you need to be moving around when you fight, just watch any boxing or mma fight. its bad to have people running circles around you. but when you actually do decide to throw a punch you need to stay put even for a split second. with that said, moving around in games while fighting should be encouraged but when you do decide to attack, a rooting mechanic that makes you stay put for a split second is definitely justified.
now i understand the common misconception everyone is having behind combat fluidity :P
Try fencing. Very active, movement oriented combat. The vast majority of hit occur while moving. This is the result of light weapons and light armor... speed makes up for the difference.
I don't recall ever seeing fencers running in circles or hopping all over the place.
Let me guess, those here opposed to movement in combat were also wizards and enchanters in EQ who sat down at the back of the group and cast one spell per encounter whilst the warriors and rogues ran around doing all the work pulling and tanking.
If we are comparing real life then yes, moving while fighting is terrible. You CAN, but if you do, your going to be doing so after positioning yourself and then springing at someone from a proper stance to build strength in your attacks. The most powerful attacks involve setting your feet up and using your body in the proper way. "Ranged' attacks only become that much harder when moving due to the fact you are throwing off the aim and balance. There is a reason you don't see people running and gunning in real life that effectively. Not to mention if you are moving around and don't have a firm stance, theres a good likelihood a good opponent will take advantage and try and trip you or grapple you since it will be vastly easier to do so when you don't have a good stance keeping you grounded.
When you learn martial arts, one of the most important things you learn is stances. They are the key to giving the most powerful attack and yes, getting the right position to spring forward AND do that attack while moving far more efficiently.
Looking at it in a game side though, Yeah, I don't like attacking while moving. Sure, I can see SOME of it happening, but over-all it just looks sloppy and takes out the power and even the aspect of skill knowing when to move to use your abilities. Case in point: Guildwars 2 which combat feels sloppy, a big part of it do to being able to just flail around everywhere as your character constantly throws stuff, lacking that feeling of power behind any of the blows.
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The shield wall and spears was the best defense against a group of charging crazy people with axes yes.. but stil if you charged such a wall you owuld not root yourself to the spot when attacking, you would be pushnig forward all the time ti try and brake the wall. Even then as stated above the best way to brake a shield wall was with movement but by flanking it..
Anyway i also enjoy games with mroe realistic combat like yourself.. I am not a fan of the rooting combat of tera or a massive fan of being able to run around peopel in circles while attacking.
If I had to choose between tera type combat or darkfall type combat where you can run circles i would choose darkfall as tera combat jsut seems really wrong to me..
but saying that we all like different things.
This, in my opinion, depends on what rules the game in question is using.
Lets take a few examples:
Neverwinter Nights / KOTOR -series. Rules based on pen and paper rpgs. The combat is made beautiful and "dynamic" through animations and the flow of the game, with the characters parrying, dodging and attacking fluently. But! In theory, you are locked in place when attacking and can be outflanked and outmanouvered, which in my opinion is beautiful for an RPG.
The Witcher 2: Best singleplayer RPG I have ever played. Best Action combat I have ever played. You have free 360 degress movement, but as soon as you hit attack (Wether heavy or light), you are locked to it for the duration of the animation (not locked in place, since most attacks, depending on the position of your enemy, move you towards that enemy and make the combat quite beautiful actually.) I also believe you can cancel attacks and so on with the new combat mod, but I haven't played it so much in the recent days.
Sadly I can't go more in depth, but the following two examples have to be mentioned.
Dark Messiah: My second favourite singleplayer game. You have free movement all the time in combat, but performing heavy attacks is linked to your movement direction. Check youtube videos of the game.
Mount & Blade: As you said, Mount&Blade does not have bunnying and attacking, but it simulates physics. Weapons have weight and the arc, motion and distance of the swing all matter. Speed, direction and movement of the characters striking and receiving the hit matter. Example: Poking someone who tries charging at you with a polearm will definately stagger them, deal huge increased damage and so on. Also, rushed, fast swings aren't as effective as well prepared ones. Armor values, damage types and all those matter too.
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If only someone who knew what they where doing could bring this type of combat to an mmorpg.. we can dream i guess but maybe one day.. or maybe someone can buy mortal online and fix it haha.
LOL... I was thinking the exact same thing while reading this thread. The OP is right that moving while delivering a hard blow is nearly impossible but this isn't real life. Devs are trying to make a game fun first and foremost. Realism will always take a backseat to fun and engaging game play. Besides it's about time something was done as the EQ model of standing in one spot while you mash your abilities in your favored rotation for every single fight has become very stale. Combat is probably what you'll be doing for 80%-90% of your time spent in game. It's about time they started to look at the old systems and improved upon them. Standing in one spot while mashing buttons simply gets boring and tedious after you've done it a thousand times in a game.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Yeah, sure. But why can't there be a compromise between gameplay and realism? See Project Reality for BF2 as an example.
Then again, at least my conversation here was more about PC games in general, not just MMOs. Once again I must say that I am, sadly, disappointed by 90% of the MMOs what I touch these days.
Full realism is a bad idea for an MMO, because your typical MMO players want a character they can hold on to for as long as they play. Dying is no fun for them and losing a character is no-go. Besides, I doubt many of us would enjoy what you just said, but lets return to the physical restrictions.
ArmA 2 has a mod called ACE - Advanced Combat Environment. It includes everything from being knocked unconcious by pressure from explosions etc. (See: M1A1 safe distance required at the front.) to losing your hearing and the most advanced stamina system in FPS games so far.
The more you carry, the more tired you get. The more you run, the more tired you get. You can walk for miles, but sprinting with full gear won't take you long. Also, your character matters - special forces and such can go on much longer than some poor insurgents. Being knocked out from bloodloss or shock when being hit is common. Being suppressed makes you lose any hope of aiming accurately. A single shrapnel can take you down. It's brutal, it's different, it's amazing. The amount of teamwork alone makes the whole experience different.
PS. Now, I must say I am a fan of Fantasy, especially Dark medieval Fantasy and thus, I enjoy magic in my RPGs. But! I want the combat to make sense. I don't want games where the laws of physics are thrown out, ala WoW (You have falling damage, that's about it. But oversized weapons and warriors jumping, attacking, circlestrafing and hitting ground, causing everyone to be stunned and almost shooting lightning out of their rear is normal.)
So, I ask this; Why can't RPGs try to stay true to their worlds? I do not find the points what I mentioned above immersive or fun, but I understand that the normal, casual player finds that epic and awesome.
PPS. Shooting a longbow on the run or while jumping ala WoW = mind blown.
PPPS. Weapon Trails. Who the **** invented them? Why must they, by default, plague every video game? I don't want my games to be like some.. some anime. I never got into those for a reason.
We?re all dead, just say it.
Try fencing. Very active, movement oriented combat. The vast majority of hit occur while moving. This is the result of light weapons and light armor... speed makes up for the difference.Oderint, dum metuant.
Movement cancels powerful attacks.
WoW had that right 10 years ago.
http://lyrics.iztok.org/verse/Lynyrd_Skynyrd/Simple_Man/80615
I don't recall ever seeing fencers running in circles or hopping all over the place.
___________________________
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Perhaps not, but they're definitely active. No planted feet there.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Sure you are.
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Uhm, you never held a sword in your hand ever, right? Combat have always been about positioning and movement. I can only recommend you to go down to your local ARMA and ask the guys there what they think about the whole thing.
In fact in pen and paper RPGs you use tin figurines to get the combat movement just right. In D&D which most MMOs are based one way or another you can indeed move while fighting and you more or less have too unless you cast spells. Mages and sorcerors are seriously slowed when casting and can only take a step while clerics and pallys can move like ordinary.
However you move slower in combat then you do when running, but you actually do that in some MMOs as well.
I agree about mages but while I am far from a swordmaster I do have trained some and you make no sense about melee.
Ranged combat is preferably done still but there are many good bowmen that easily hit a target from a horse and some that can hit things while walking or even running but it seriously lowers their range.
Moving while fighting in MMOs makes them more fun for me at least even though others have problems with it, but your logical arguments just ain't good enough.
This can be explained easily and quickly.
The majority of MMO's do not have the same timeframe reference we do. For some games ( EQ comes to mind), an entire day is 72 minutes of real time (could be be wrong...my memory is off). Therefore a second of our time, can be infact minutes or hours within the game. What we see is the sped up and fluid result of such actions to prevent having a boxy, or locked-kneed game.
Which edition of D&D are we talking about? Since you brought that up, this just became a "sacred" topic.
In 3.5e, you have Seven possible actions in combat. Full, Standard, Move, Free, Swift, Immediate and Miscellanious. There is no difference between a Cleric and a Wizard casting a spell - both are Standard actions, but then details come into play; Concentration vs attacks of oppoturnity, spell failure due to armor or effects and so on. Some spells also have longer casting times, but these are -very- rare.
However, the point in D&D is this. You move either BEFORE or AFTER taking the action. You can't do both move, attack and move, unless you have the required feat, what makes it all the more tactical. There is no such feat for spells as far as I know though.
D&D also includes much more interesting choises for melee than common MMOs and the older versions didn't have ridiculous attack powers what the Fourth edition introduces (More MMO like, with every attack being a SPECIAL SKILL.)
D&D 3.5e allowed you to use feats in combat, if you had them, that is. Feats such as feint and the like, but there were also basic actions what everyone could take; Charge, ready against movement, action or spell, defensive fighting, full defense and the list goes on. Grappling is a thing what MMOs and most video games have forgotten about completely.
Also, in old editions of D&D, you are not magically slowed down in combat. Your speed is the same 30ft in turn, but running (sprinting) is a separate full-round action. Same as if you would specify it out of combat. Your characters, while out of combat, can't run -everywhere-. Otherwise they will become exhausted and so on.
Everyone talking about Historical Combat should watch a few documentaries followed by some beautifully acted fights.
PS. Sadly, MMOs have forgotten all about the creature sizes too. D&D 3.5e had all the little details right. Size had it's own advantages and penalties. Can anyone here name an MMO other than DDO where halflings or dwarves run slower than humans for example? They disregarded that even in Neverwinter Online and oh god it looks stupid when giant Norn run just as fast as some tiny Asura in Guild Wars 2.
We?re all dead, just say it.
I think I'll just leave this video here. This is what I think of when I see arguments on movement in combat.
Legolas was an elf archer, not one of the Dunedain... c'mon, get it right.
As far as realistic movement in combat, let's see what some of the masters have to say:
Muhammad Ali: "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee"
Bruce Lee: "Be like water"
Sun Tzu: "Fall like a thunderbolt"
Yep, sounds like they were all standing still. By the way, MMA =/= real combat. It's a sport. Trying to apply those principles to videogames in some sort of realism argument is misguided at best. At most, you may be able to develop some type of warrior philosophy from your experiences... otherwise consider that there are thousands of years of martial philosophy at your disposal; are you claiming to know more than they do? What about arts like Wing Chun, traditional Japanese Jujutsu, or Angola Capoeira? These all seem much more "real" to me than two bros in a ring knocking the *&$% out of each other. To each his own, I guess.
/2c
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Unrealistic is not being able to move while performing an attack...
you're dodging attacks, bullets, etc... you're moving forward while executing an attack, walking sideways... You're usually walking backwards or sideways when trying to block attacks with weapons...
Even with firearms, you're never in the same spot when shooting.
Tho, concidering casters... They're not real anyways so why should they be limited by realism? :P There would be no casters if your realism would have a say in the matter.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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Comparing to real life is kind of useless. In real life you are not standing toe to toe shooting fireballs at each other. And when shooting a gun, one bullet in real life is deadly, which means you have a reason to make the first shot count. In a MMO, you need multiple hits and are more busy with not getting hit yourself, for this reason you want to move while shooting.
As for real life fencing and other melee weapons, it depends on the style in real life how people move, but they certainly don't stand still.
So stop the real life comparisons please. With the way health (being chipped away at with hits) works in MMO's, moving during combat makes sense. Standing still to play punching bag, doesn't.
And why now? Because server hardware and internet connections can finally cope with it in a massively multiplayer environment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQmeg2WtYl0
Watch this and tell me if they aren't moving, not only that, their armor can weigh up to between 70-90ib with the shield and sword, I know my chainmail I have alone is 40 and I don't have platemail..
hahaha, now that is freaking awesome!
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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good post.
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Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And they're only touching each other with their foils. They're not trying to physically harm each other.
___________________________
Have flask; will travel.
If we are comparing real life then yes, moving while fighting is terrible. You CAN, but if you do, your going to be doing so after positioning yourself and then springing at someone from a proper stance to build strength in your attacks. The most powerful attacks involve setting your feet up and using your body in the proper way. "Ranged' attacks only become that much harder when moving due to the fact you are throwing off the aim and balance. There is a reason you don't see people running and gunning in real life that effectively. Not to mention if you are moving around and don't have a firm stance, theres a good likelihood a good opponent will take advantage and try and trip you or grapple you since it will be vastly easier to do so when you don't have a good stance keeping you grounded.
When you learn martial arts, one of the most important things you learn is stances. They are the key to giving the most powerful attack and yes, getting the right position to spring forward AND do that attack while moving far more efficiently.
Looking at it in a game side though, Yeah, I don't like attacking while moving. Sure, I can see SOME of it happening, but over-all it just looks sloppy and takes out the power and even the aspect of skill knowing when to move to use your abilities. Case in point: Guildwars 2 which combat feels sloppy, a big part of it do to being able to just flail around everywhere as your character constantly throws stuff, lacking that feeling of power behind any of the blows.
This was a beautiful post! Kudos sir, kudos.
We?re all dead, just say it.