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Debate: Class Regression

wizardanimwizardanim Member Posts: 278
in EverQuest Next

My question stems from this article: http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/08/03/everquest-next-interview/

Here is the quote in question:

  • McPherson: Right, the assassin trainer won’t give you the class until you’re a really high level rogue and you’ve done a whole bunch of things. And the paladin for example, [Dave Georgeson, Director of Development] mentioned a life of consequence—if you haven’t been making the good choices and being an upright and justice influenced person, you can’t be a paladin. They won’t let you, because the game knows what you’re doing. So you have to live—in some of these classes, we restrict it to how you've been acting in the game.
Alright, so you have become a paladin.  You have acted valorously and helped the poor, defeated evil, and slain the skeleton boss.  What now? 
 
Lets say you start burning houses, lets say you start being 'evil'.  Pillaging villages, destroying happiness.  Lets say your Paladin trends down the road of the Shadow Knight, as far as morals go.  Is your Paladin still a Paladin? 
 
You have committed crimes that would, in the beginning, completely inhibit you from becoming a Paladin in the first place.  But, now that you are one, what happens?
 
I am wondering, how will they handle this?  

Comments

  • TelondarielTelondariel Member Posts: 1,001
    Nothing even close to this has been brought up yet.  A lot is going to be pure speculation until they release the next batch of info.

    image
  • wizardanimwizardanim Member Posts: 278
    Originally posted by Telondariel
    Nothing even close to this has been brought up yet.  A lot is going to be pure speculation until they release the next batch of info.

    I do agree.  This is just a topic I want to toss out there.  On my list to ask the devs for sure.

  • killahhkillahh Member UncommonPosts: 445

    well, by using logic , if you tansgress, you will loose the abilities to interact with the paladin trainer, good people AND if you continue down the path you might actually be able to interact with the shadowknight trainer at some point

    over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...

  • ApraxisApraxis Member UncommonPosts: 1,518

    Freeze your paladin class. You can not access the class. You can not play a paladin. You can not advance in the class paladin.

    Maybe later.. if you return to the true path of a paladin, and you have done your fair share of good deeds, you may get access to the class again. That would be my solution.

  • Agnostic42Agnostic42 Member UncommonPosts: 405
    Originally posted by Telondariel
    Nothing even close to this has been brought up yet.  A lot is going to be pure speculation until they release the next batch of info.

    This is it, exactly. Even asking the question that the OP did this early will just cause confusion amongst the people who refuse to research stuff on their own and jump to wild conclusions on these forums. We see it everyday, all day.

  • ghorgosghorgos Member UncommonPosts: 191
    The idea that you have to "earn" the additional classes is very interesting. Actualy  reduces the issues i have with the multiclassing a lot but it needs to work in two ways: earning and keeping the classes. If it i just for getting them then we will have someone calculating a perfect route after a short time and that is something i don't want to see.
  • wizardanimwizardanim Member Posts: 278
    Originally posted by agnostic4eve
    Originally posted by Telondariel
    Nothing even close to this has been brought up yet.  A lot is going to be pure speculation until they release the next batch of info.

    This is it, exactly. Even asking the question that the OP did this early will just cause confusion amongst the people who refuse to research stuff on their own and jump to wild conclusions on these forums. We see it everyday, all day.

    I don't believe asking questions is a bad thing.  It is all speculation, but i'd sure as hell want to tell the devs at some point to make sure it is considered.

    I do know for a fact that devs read these forums, at one point or another during the day.  I would hope they see this post and say, 'Have we thought of this?'.   Oh, and maybe the community could contribute to the topic instead of just saying, "They haven't told us how it will be, so lets not talk about it."

    Very much opposite the theme of these forums for the last few months.

  • GiffenGiffen Member UncommonPosts: 276
    Originally posted by wizardanim

    My question stems from this article: http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/08/03/everquest-next-interview/

    Here is the quote in question:

    • McPherson: Right, the assassin trainer won’t give you the class until you’re a really high level rogue and you’ve done a whole bunch of things. And the paladin for example, [Dave Georgeson, Director of Development] mentioned a life of consequence—if you haven’t been making the good choices and being an upright and justice influenced person, you can’t be a paladin. They won’t let you, because the game knows what you’re doing. So you have to live—in some of these classes, we restrict it to how you've been acting in the game.
    Alright, so you have become a paladin.  You have acted valorously and helped the poor, defeated evil, and slain the skeleton boss.  What now? 
     
    Lets say you start burning houses, lets say you start being 'evil'.  Pillaging villages, destroying happiness.  Lets say your Paladin trends down the road of the Shadow Knight, as far as morals go.  Is your Paladin still a Paladin? 
     
    You have committed crimes that would, in the beginning, completely inhibit you from becoming a Paladin in the first place.  But, now that you are one, what happens?
     
    I am wondering, how will they handle this?  

    I don't believe they will have anything like this. If they did and you can assume about half the classes are considered "good" and half "evil" (ok maybe a third since some will be neutral), then this would mean a character could not obtain all the classes in fact one might only be able to obtain a small fraction of the 40 classes thus severely limiting progression.

  • wizardanimwizardanim Member Posts: 278
    Originally posted by Giffen
    Originally posted by wizardanim

    My question stems from this article: http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/08/03/everquest-next-interview/

    Here is the quote in question:

    • McPherson: Right, the assassin trainer won’t give you the class until you’re a really high level rogue and you’ve done a whole bunch of things. And the paladin for example, [Dave Georgeson, Director of Development] mentioned a life of consequence—if you haven’t been making the good choices and being an upright and justice influenced person, you can’t be a paladin. They won’t let you, because the game knows what you’re doing. So you have to live—in some of these classes, we restrict it to how you've been acting in the game.
    Alright, so you have become a paladin.  You have acted valorously and helped the poor, defeated evil, and slain the skeleton boss.  What now? 
     
    Lets say you start burning houses, lets say you start being 'evil'.  Pillaging villages, destroying happiness.  Lets say your Paladin trends down the road of the Shadow Knight, as far as morals go.  Is your Paladin still a Paladin? 
     
    You have committed crimes that would, in the beginning, completely inhibit you from becoming a Paladin in the first place.  But, now that you are one, what happens?
     
    I am wondering, how will they handle this?  

    I don't believe they will have anything like this. If they did and you can assume about half the classes are considered "good" and half "evil" (ok maybe a third since some will be neutral), then this would mean a character could not obtain all the classes in fact one might only be able to obtain a small fraction of the 40 classes thus severely limiting progression.

    Well, it does sound like there are some barriers to entry when they say (from McPherson):

    • if you haven’t been making the good choices and being an upright and justice influenced person, you can’t be a paladin
    I would think that these barriers would apply in some way after the class has been obtained.  We just don't know what mechanisms they have considered.
     
    I am personally hoping/expecting a status requirement on applicable classes.  As you unlock Paladin, you abilities may fade if you fall below a certain status.  If a paladin is suposed to be holy, honorable, and Just, not representing the qualities will be detrimental to your character.  This might apply to the consequences Georgeson was talking about.
     
    To your point, 'neutral' classes may be a good starting option, as they wouldn't be hindered by faction hits or actions.
  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309
    Originally posted by Apraxis

    Freeze your paladin class. You can not access the class. You can not play a paladin. You can not advance in the class paladin.

    Maybe later.. if you return to the true path of a paladin, and you have done your fair share of good deeds, you may get access to the class again. That would be my solution.

    I agree with this.  I love the "life of consequence" concept and I want there to truly be consequences.   I believe that many classes should be "consequence agnostic", meaning that you can do whatever you want as a Warrior.

     

    But i think it would only add to the appeal and complexity of certain classes if you have to walk the talk.  I would love to see a Paladin say: "i will not help you pillage that village, it is not what a paladin would do" and have this actually be supported by in-game mechanics rather than just be pseudo-RP gibberish.  

     

    I would purposely pursue some of these classes and seek out the types of gameplay (i.e. saving babies) that encourage them.

     

    As someone that enjoys roleplaying and immersion, i get so turned off by seeing all these Assassins and Shadowknights that are out saving the world and helping the poor villagers.  This just isn't what "those people" do!!!  I don't want to be totally prohibitive, i mean, it's perfectly possible that an Assassin would save ONE village out of the goodness of his heard, just not that he does that regularly.  And if he does, he is no long an Assassin, maybe he's a Vigilante, or whatever.

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  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130

    I think the game might not let you. In EQ you could not really attack anyone of your "race" and "class".

    You could not attack your guild leader. You could not really attack your God...you could attack some Gods..but as a paladin you couldn't go and take a swing at Mithaniel Marr or something.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Somebody actually asked this exact question in one of the panels, and I believe the answer was "nothing is permanent."  Just because you ruin your faction, so to speak, doesn't mean you can't work back in the good/evil direction to become what you want later on.


  • camphor1camphor1 Member Posts: 19
    Originally posted by wizardanim

    My question stems from this article: http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/08/03/everquest-next-interview/

    Here is the quote in question:

    • McPherson: Right, the assassin trainer won’t give you the class until you’re a really high level rogue and you’ve done a whole bunch of things. And the paladin for example, [Dave Georgeson, Director of Development] mentioned a life of consequence—if you haven’t been making the good choices and being an upright and justice influenced person, you can’t be a paladin. They won’t let you, because the game knows what you’re doing. So you have to live—in some of these classes, we restrict it to how you've been acting in the game.
    Alright, so you have become a paladin.  You have acted valorously and helped the poor, defeated evil, and slain the skeleton boss.  What now? 
     
    Lets say you start burning houses, lets say you start being 'evil'.  Pillaging villages, destroying happiness.  Lets say your Paladin trends down the road of the Shadow Knight, as far as morals go.  Is your Paladin still a Paladin? 
     
    You have committed crimes that would, in the beginning, completely inhibit you from becoming a Paladin in the first place.  But, now that you are one, what happens?
     
    I am wondering, how will they handle this?  

    not that they have to go this way but in the eq universe lucan de'lere is a paladin a mourderous evil paladin but his class in eq1 was still a paladin and used lay on hands, and in eq2 his statue (an npc technically) has paladin buffs on it once you learn how to be a paladin you dont forget how however since 99% of paladins are lawful good and they are the only ones who teach how to be a paladin they wont teach it to you if your evl to begin with

     

    edit: honestly i dont care either way it has been confirmed though that you can't be both a paladin and a shadowknight 

  • ArdwulfArdwulf Member UncommonPosts: 283

    Agreed that it's a premature question. Still, it's a good one.

    What I think is most likely is that it doesn't matter; once you have the Paladin class nothing changes even after you start a baby-eating binge.

    What I would like to see is that kind of action penalizing you somehow. Maybe not locking you out of the class entirely, but causing the Paladin trainer to refuse to teach you any more (if that's even neccessary,) for example.

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  • DracockDracock Member Posts: 75

    I've never been much of a Starwars nerd, but this whole thing reminds me of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. It's not as if Anakin lost his ability to use the force and wield a light saber when he went to the darkside. While there were a few abilities that he gained access to at the cost of others, for the most part there was a lot of overlap.

    The Shadowknight / Paladin dichotomy is similar to this. There's a lot of overlap in armor and combat styles. They both draw on some idealistic power to use magic as well. A "fallen" Paladin or reformed Shadowknight, is not the same as starting over as a young knight.

    Ideally, the game would reflect this transitional phase. Lets use the example of a Paladin going evil:

    At first, the Paladin loses his ability to res other players, but doesn't get much a trade off. He retains the ability to heal himself and smite enimes ect. Then it starts creeping into losing the ability to heal and buff other people ect. As a trade, he starts gaining some preliminary dark abilities to drain str/armor ect. Eventually, he can no longer use almost any of his paladin abilities, and instead is a full blown Shadowknight.

    There are ways the dev's could make this really interesting and intricate. For example: add in a class for Shadowknights that requires you to previously max out the Paladin class. Likewise, they could add one in for Paladins that used to be Shadowknights. These might be some of the toughest classes in the game to get, because of all the faction work involved. But it would allow people to have their own Vader-like storyline if that's their thing. It would also allow players to change their minds; without it feeling completely counter-productive.

    I doubt this kind of thing will be in at launch however. More likely, it will be really hard to get both Paladin and Shadowknight classes capped, but there is otherwise no mechanical difference between any other multi-class.

     

  • EeksEeks Member Posts: 72
    I'm kind of tired and not sure this was said straight out in the thread yet so I apologize if so., but somewhere at SOE Live they talked about being good and being a paladin followed by you becoming very evil.  You could stay a paladin but you wouldn't be able to advance the pally class at all because your trainers and such hate you.  However, being an evil pally you're capable of obtaining the SK class.  Once you have the SK class, you can right your wrongs and get back in good standing with the pally folks if that's what you're into.
  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Member Posts: 1,059

    It reads like a simple reputation system. If you want to use the paladin class then keep your reputation on the plus side. Otherwise, lose its benefits or go far enough astray to fall onto its antithesis. It is a nice sounding mechanic that will fall apart spiritually upon meeting the player base and become another tool with associated grind to make up a portion of end game content. Enough players will go grind deeds good or bad to qualify for which ever class serves as flavor of the month in PVP that it becomes meaningless for anything else, particularly as RP flavor. But it will give people something to do and I can already envision some funny vent comments.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
          That was my impression too Eeks.. and I actually love it..  That was one thing I miss from old EQ.. was the flexibility of gaining and losing faction based on your actions..  I"m also sure that faction must be HELD in good standard to keep the skills, or SHOULD be..  They shouldn't allow Pally's to skill up , then become evil and keep their Pally skills for swapping.. I"m also equally sure that the Pally / SK aren't the only classes in that list of 40 with either/or limitations.. 
  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Crazy_Stick

    It reads like a simple reputation system. If you want to use the paladin class then keep your reputation on the plus side. Otherwise, lose its benefits or go far enough astray to fall onto its antithesis. It is a nice sounding mechanic that will fall apart spiritually upon meeting the player base and become another tool with associated grind to make up a portion of end game content. Enough players will go grind deeds good or bad to qualify for which ever class serves as flavor of the month in PVP that it becomes meaningless for anything else, particularly as RP flavor. But it will give people something to do and I can already envision some funny vent comments.

    Very true.. They mentioned EQN will always be a living experience, even comparing it to LoL.. According to their words, "with adding new content and items into the game regularly we are in fact effecting how the game is played"...... SO.. You like the Pally, but due to gear and playstyle the SK is more attractive.. then here comes the new gear for Pally... OH SNAP.. I want to be a Pally now,, gring grind grind..  A month or so down the road you finally earn the rep needed to train Pally to get that new upgrade..  Shortly after, new SK gear is added..  DAMMIT.. Now I have to grind back to SK to get that upgrade because it is now the new best class..

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