Games always start off with these lore restrictions, but as time goes on they always open up more combinations. This will only give SOE an excuse to sell class/race unlocks on the marketplace.
I think some of you really really need to watch the Lore Panel , the lore isn't the same as EQ1/EQ2, the races aren't the same, a lot of things have changed and it doesn't lend itself toward strict race restrictions and yet I see people just gong on and on about "lore this" and "lore that."
AT the same time they ignore that they are basically asking for racial stereotypes to be forced upon other people.
All gnomes are weak, all dwarves are strong, all ogres are dumb.
Now replace that with our real-world races, all blacks are, all asians are, see the problem?
There is NO logical reason that an ogre can't do this or that, who is to say your ogre isn't different,t hat he didn't have a fascination with magic at a young age and left his homeland and studied magic?
Who's to say your gnome didn't get abandoned and found by a family of dwarves and he took up the hammer ?
Forcing people into stereotypical roles leads to less choice, less variety.
I think some of you really really need to watch the Lore Panel , the lore isn't the same as EQ1/EQ2, the races aren't the same, a lot of things have changed and it doesn't lend itself toward strict race restrictions and yet I see people just gong on and on about "lore this" and "lore that."
AT the same time they ignore that they are basically asking for racial stereotypes to be forced upon other people.
All gnomes are weak, all dwarves are strong, all ogres are dumb.
Now replace that with our real-world races, all blacks are, all asians are, see the problem?
There is NO logical reason that an ogre can't do this or that, who is to say your ogre isn't different,t hat he didn't have a fascination with magic at a young age and left his homeland and studied magic?
Who's to say your gnome didn't get abandoned and found by a family of dwarves and he took up the hammer ?
Forcing people into stereotypical roles leads to less choice, less variety.
Except your example are all humans with the same basic genetic code. Who says an Ogre's brain can genetically be the same as a humans. Animals can not achieve the same level of intelligence due to brain design. Do not confuse our stupid use of "race" in the real world with the actual meaning of race as different distinctly developed creatures.
I think some of you really really need to watch the Lore Panel , the lore isn't the same as EQ1/EQ2, the races aren't the same, a lot of things have changed and it doesn't lend itself toward strict race restrictions and yet I see people just gong on and on about "lore this" and "lore that."
AT the same time they ignore that they are basically asking for racial stereotypes to be forced upon other people.
All gnomes are weak, all dwarves are strong, all ogres are dumb.
Now replace that with our real-world races, all blacks are, all asians are, see the problem?
There is NO logical reason that an ogre can't do this or that, who is to say your ogre isn't different,t hat he didn't have a fascination with magic at a young age and left his homeland and studied magic?
Who's to say your gnome didn't get abandoned and found by a family of dwarves and he took up the hammer ?
Forcing people into stereotypical roles leads to less choice, less variety.
Except your example are all humans with the same basic genetic code. Who says an Ogre's brain can genetically be the same as a humans. Animals can not achieve the same level of intelligence due to brain design. Do not confuse our stupid use of "race" in the real world with the actual meaning of race as different distinctly developed creatures.
Most of the races if not all have the basic intelligence required to learn and adapt.
Written language skills, verbal language, use of tools, building, etc. IF a race is capable of doing these it stands to logical reasoning that they could learn and do many other things rather then all being restricted to one stereotype.
We can even recognize this kind of behavior, a sense of individuality in animals in our real world.
Do you think all dogs are the same? All animals in general? No.
I think some of you really really need to watch the Lore Panel , the lore isn't the same as EQ1/EQ2, the races aren't the same, a lot of things have changed and it doesn't lend itself toward strict race restrictions and yet I see people just gong on and on about "lore this" and "lore that."
AT the same time they ignore that they are basically asking for racial stereotypes to be forced upon other people.
All gnomes are weak, all dwarves are strong, all ogres are dumb.
Now replace that with our real-world races, all blacks are, all asians are, see the problem?
There is NO logical reason that an ogre can't do this or that, who is to say your ogre isn't different,t hat he didn't have a fascination with magic at a young age and left his homeland and studied magic?
Who's to say your gnome didn't get abandoned and found by a family of dwarves and he took up the hammer ?
Forcing people into stereotypical roles leads to less choice, less variety.
Except your example are all humans with the same basic genetic code. Who says an Ogre's brain can genetically be the same as a humans. Animals can not achieve the same level of intelligence due to brain design. Do not confuse our stupid use of "race" in the real world with the actual meaning of race as different distinctly developed creatures.
Most of the races if not all have the basic intelligence required to learn and adapt.
Written language skills, verbal language, use of tools, building, etc. IF a race is capable of doing these it stands to logical reasoning that they could learn and do many other things rather then all being restricted to one stereotype.
We can even recognize this kind of behavior, a sense of individuality in animals in our real world.
Do you think all dogs are the same? All animals in general? No.
Excellent example actually. Only certain breeds of dogs lend themselves to certain tasks well, so while I suppose Yorkshire Terriers could pull a sled, people tend to stick to larger breeds, specifically huskies in most cases due to certain physical advantages they have in that sort of work.
Same reason certain breeds are used to herd sheep, ferret out rodents or play guard duties, their best suited to their tasks and the same holds true in a fantasy game.
Even in the canine world there's significant differences in intelligence, and you again, certain dogs are better suited to tasks that require greater amounts of it.
Sure, you can have gnome warriors, but they should be at such a huge disadvantage to an Orc that effectively, there's no reason to really code them into the game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Except your example are all humans with the same basic genetic code. Who says an Ogre's brain can genetically be the same as a humans. Animals can not achieve the same level of intelligence due to brain design. Do not confuse our stupid use of "race" in the real world with the actual meaning of race as different distinctly developed creatures.
This doesn't mean one class should be banned from acquiring a class though imo. This is where attributes would come into play to address certain races being more or less adept at executing their class' abilities.
Personally there are 3 options I would be totally fine with:
1: Totally Restricted based on Race.
2: Heavy Penalties for using a class not common to your race.
3: Extremly Difficult to obtain (months of work per class) if they are not common the your race.
The only thing I truely don't want to see is a system where you race does not mather in any significant way, I don't say that as just as a eq player, but as a rpg gamer.
I think some of you really really need to watch the Lore Panel , the lore isn't the same as EQ1/EQ2, the races aren't the same, a lot of things have changed and it doesn't lend itself toward strict race restrictions and yet I see people just gong on and on about "lore this" and "lore that."
AT the same time they ignore that they are basically asking for racial stereotypes to be forced upon other people.
All gnomes are weak, all dwarves are strong, all ogres are dumb.
Now replace that with our real-world races, all blacks are, all asians are, see the problem?
There is NO logical reason that an ogre can't do this or that, who is to say your ogre isn't different,t hat he didn't have a fascination with magic at a young age and left his homeland and studied magic?
Who's to say your gnome didn't get abandoned and found by a family of dwarves and he took up the hammer ?
Forcing people into stereotypical roles leads to less choice, less variety.
Except your example are all humans with the same basic genetic code. Who says an Ogre's brain can genetically be the same as a humans. Animals can not achieve the same level of intelligence due to brain design. Do not confuse our stupid use of "race" in the real world with the actual meaning of race as different distinctly developed creatures.
Most of the races if not all have the basic intelligence required to learn and adapt.
Written language skills, verbal language, use of tools, building, etc. IF a race is capable of doing these it stands to logical reasoning that they could learn and do many other things rather then all being restricted to one stereotype.
We can even recognize this kind of behavior, a sense of individuality in animals in our real world.
Do you think all dogs are the same? All animals in general? No.
Excellent example actually. Only certain breeds of dogs lend themselves to certain tasks well, so while I suppose Yorkshire Terriers could pull a sled, people tend to stick to larger breeds, specifically huskies in most cases due to certain physical advantages they have in that sort of work.
Same reason certain breeds are used to herd sheep, ferret out rodents or play guard duties, their best suited to their tasks and the same holds true in a fantasy game.
Even in the canine world there's significant differences in intelligence, and you again, certain dogs are better suited to tasks that require greater amounts of it.
Sure, you can have gnome warriors, but they should be at such a huge disadvantage to an Orc that effectively, there's no reason to really code them into the game.
Dogs are all the same species, that's my point. You have one species, then you have various differences withint hat species, the species as a whole isn't one dimensional/allt he same, like one ogre can be different from another ogre.
You're dividing dogs up into different breeds, that's like dividing up say, Elves into "wood elves, dark elves" and so on.
You mention Gnome's being at a huge disadvantage, what about Dwarves? They are small in stature just like gnomes, but they are generally considered some of the best warriors in fantasy games. Is it really far fetched then to say in a fantasy setting, that a gnome can't become strong, learn to fight and be as comparable to fighting as a dwarf?
I think some of you really really need to watch the Lore Panel , the lore isn't the same as EQ1/EQ2, the races aren't the same, a lot of things have changed and it doesn't lend itself toward strict race restrictions and yet I see people just gong on and on about "lore this" and "lore that."
AT the same time they ignore that they are basically asking for racial stereotypes to be forced upon other people.
All gnomes are weak, all dwarves are strong, all ogres are dumb.
Now replace that with our real-world races, all blacks are, all asians are, see the problem?
There is NO logical reason that an ogre can't do this or that, who is to say your ogre isn't different,t hat he didn't have a fascination with magic at a young age and left his homeland and studied magic?
Who's to say your gnome didn't get abandoned and found by a family of dwarves and he took up the hammer ?
Forcing people into stereotypical roles leads to less choice, less variety.
Except your example are all humans with the same basic genetic code. Who says an Ogre's brain can genetically be the same as a humans. Animals can not achieve the same level of intelligence due to brain design. Do not confuse our stupid use of "race" in the real world with the actual meaning of race as different distinctly developed creatures.
Most of the races if not all have the basic intelligence required to learn and adapt.
Written language skills, verbal language, use of tools, building, etc. IF a race is capable of doing these it stands to logical reasoning that they could learn and do many other things rather then all being restricted to one stereotype.
We can even recognize this kind of behavior, a sense of individuality in animals in our real world.
Do you think all dogs are the same? All animals in general? No.
Excellent example actually. Only certain breeds of dogs lend themselves to certain tasks well, so while I suppose Yorkshire Terriers could pull a sled, people tend to stick to larger breeds, specifically huskies in most cases due to certain physical advantages they have in that sort of work.
Same reason certain breeds are used to herd sheep, ferret out rodents or play guard duties, their best suited to their tasks and the same holds true in a fantasy game.
Even in the canine world there's significant differences in intelligence, and you again, certain dogs are better suited to tasks that require greater amounts of it.
Sure, you can have gnome warriors, but they should be at such a huge disadvantage to an Orc that effectively, there's no reason to really code them into the game.
Dogs are all the same species, that's my point. You have one species, then you have various differences withint hat species, the species as a whole isn't one dimensional/allt he same, like one ogre can be different from another ogre.
You're dividing dogs up into different breeds, that's like dividing up say, Elves into "wood elves, dark elves" and so on.
You mention Gnome's being at a huge disadvantage, what about Dwarves? They are small in stature just like gnomes, but they are generally considered some of the best warriors in fantasy games. Is it really far fetched then to say in a fantasy setting, that a gnome can't become strong, learn to fight and be as comparable to fighting as a dwarf?
Dwarves are brawny by nature, while gnomes and scrawny by nature, its pretty far fetched that a gnome would have the same warrior potential as a dwarf, yes.
I think some of you really really need to watch the Lore Panel , the lore isn't the same as EQ1/EQ2, the races aren't the same, a lot of things have changed and it doesn't lend itself toward strict race restrictions and yet I see people just gong on and on about "lore this" and "lore that."
AT the same time they ignore that they are basically asking for racial stereotypes to be forced upon other people.
All gnomes are weak, all dwarves are strong, all ogres are dumb.
Now replace that with our real-world races, all blacks are, all asians are, see the problem?
There is NO logical reason that an ogre can't do this or that, who is to say your ogre isn't different,t hat he didn't have a fascination with magic at a young age and left his homeland and studied magic?
Who's to say your gnome didn't get abandoned and found by a family of dwarves and he took up the hammer ?
Forcing people into stereotypical roles leads to less choice, less variety.
Except your example are all humans with the same basic genetic code. Who says an Ogre's brain can genetically be the same as a humans. Animals can not achieve the same level of intelligence due to brain design. Do not confuse our stupid use of "race" in the real world with the actual meaning of race as different distinctly developed creatures.
Most of the races if not all have the basic intelligence required to learn and adapt.
Written language skills, verbal language, use of tools, building, etc. IF a race is capable of doing these it stands to logical reasoning that they could learn and do many other things rather then all being restricted to one stereotype.
We can even recognize this kind of behavior, a sense of individuality in animals in our real world.
Do you think all dogs are the same? All animals in general? No.
Excellent example actually. Only certain breeds of dogs lend themselves to certain tasks well, so while I suppose Yorkshire Terriers could pull a sled, people tend to stick to larger breeds, specifically huskies in most cases due to certain physical advantages they have in that sort of work.
Same reason certain breeds are used to herd sheep, ferret out rodents or play guard duties, their best suited to their tasks and the same holds true in a fantasy game.
Even in the canine world there's significant differences in intelligence, and you again, certain dogs are better suited to tasks that require greater amounts of it.
Sure, you can have gnome warriors, but they should be at such a huge disadvantage to an Orc that effectively, there's no reason to really code them into the game.
Dogs are all the same species, that's my point. You have one species, then you have various differences withint hat species, the species as a whole isn't one dimensional/allt he same, like one ogre can be different from another ogre.
You're dividing dogs up into different breeds, that's like dividing up say, Elves into "wood elves, dark elves" and so on.
You mention Gnome's being at a huge disadvantage, what about Dwarves? They are small in stature just like gnomes, but they are generally considered some of the best warriors in fantasy games. Is it really far fetched then to say in a fantasy setting, that a gnome can't become strong, learn to fight and be as comparable to fighting as a dwarf?
Dwarves are brawny by nature, while gnomes and scrawny by nature, its pretty far fetched that a gnome would have the same warrior potential as a dwarf, yes.
So you're telling me it's impossible for a gnome to get fit and build up his muscles?
I think some of you really really need to watch the Lore Panel , the lore isn't the same as EQ1/EQ2, the races aren't the same, a lot of things have changed and it doesn't lend itself toward strict race restrictions and yet I see people just gong on and on about "lore this" and "lore that."
AT the same time they ignore that they are basically asking for racial stereotypes to be forced upon other people.
All gnomes are weak, all dwarves are strong, all ogres are dumb.
Now replace that with our real-world races, all blacks are, all asians are, see the problem?
There is NO logical reason that an ogre can't do this or that, who is to say your ogre isn't different,t hat he didn't have a fascination with magic at a young age and left his homeland and studied magic?
Who's to say your gnome didn't get abandoned and found by a family of dwarves and he took up the hammer ?
Forcing people into stereotypical roles leads to less choice, less variety.
Except your example are all humans with the same basic genetic code. Who says an Ogre's brain can genetically be the same as a humans. Animals can not achieve the same level of intelligence due to brain design. Do not confuse our stupid use of "race" in the real world with the actual meaning of race as different distinctly developed creatures.
Most of the races if not all have the basic intelligence required to learn and adapt.
Written language skills, verbal language, use of tools, building, etc. IF a race is capable of doing these it stands to logical reasoning that they could learn and do many other things rather then all being restricted to one stereotype.
We can even recognize this kind of behavior, a sense of individuality in animals in our real world.
Do you think all dogs are the same? All animals in general? No.
Excellent example actually. Only certain breeds of dogs lend themselves to certain tasks well, so while I suppose Yorkshire Terriers could pull a sled, people tend to stick to larger breeds, specifically huskies in most cases due to certain physical advantages they have in that sort of work.
Same reason certain breeds are used to herd sheep, ferret out rodents or play guard duties, their best suited to their tasks and the same holds true in a fantasy game.
Even in the canine world there's significant differences in intelligence, and you again, certain dogs are better suited to tasks that require greater amounts of it.
Sure, you can have gnome warriors, but they should be at such a huge disadvantage to an Orc that effectively, there's no reason to really code them into the game.
Dogs are all the same species, that's my point. You have one species, then you have various differences withint hat species, the species as a whole isn't one dimensional/allt he same, like one ogre can be different from another ogre.
You're dividing dogs up into different breeds, that's like dividing up say, Elves into "wood elves, dark elves" and so on.
You mention Gnome's being at a huge disadvantage, what about Dwarves? They are small in stature just like gnomes, but they are generally considered some of the best warriors in fantasy games. Is it really far fetched then to say in a fantasy setting, that a gnome can't become strong, learn to fight and be as comparable to fighting as a dwarf?
Dwarves are brawny by nature, while gnomes and scrawny by nature, its pretty far fetched that a gnome would have the same warrior potential as a dwarf, yes.
So you're telling me it's impossible for a gnome to get fit and build up his muscles?
Pretty sure thats not what I said, a race that is scrawny by nature would however have stricter physical limitations then a race that is brawny by nature.
Games always start off with these lore restrictions, but as time goes on they always open up more combinations. This will only give SOE an excuse to sell class/race unlocks on the marketplace.
eq never loosened class restrictions except halflings being rangers which they make sense for aNY way their wise and agile and gnomes sks which also made some sense, they werent great sks
So you're telling me it's impossible for a gnome to get fit and build up his muscles?
IF (and its a big IF) they decide to make the races different in more ways than just the graphics then there is NO WAY a gnome should be able to bulk up to the point of matching an Ogre, Orc Human ELF or for that matter ANY other common fantasy race.
Does that relegate gnome warriors to a substandard position NO
If they design the game mechanics well, an agile and skill full warrior should be a match for a bulked up STR based warrior
Bu they would have to play differently.
Having said that, I have my doubts that they will have anything more than a cosmetic racial difference.
Very few if any MMOs in the last 6+ years have had true racial differences.
I wiah they would, but I bet they dont.
P.S. this can work the other way as well, the Ogre mage/caster or what ever may not have the raw grunt of an elf or gnome caster but in a well designed game mechanic all that stamina, muscle, and general toughness MAY allow him to cast longer, suffer more blowback, and generally compensate for a basic lack of mental aptitude.
1. It completely ruins the point of having races if I have to choose one to be the most effective with my class. Why even bother? Just have them prechosen for us since we don't get any choice either way.
If the difference between races is purely cosmetic than what is the point of having different races?
Everyone = the same is awful game design.
Also, EQ1 had a clear best race for warrior. I would say less than 10% of warriors chose to be that race.
Choosing a race has loads of meaning because it's where you start, who you meet, and what you do. People choose a race because they love the look and the lore behind it. We choose a class to be differentiated in the actual gameplay, no one says "I want to be an elf so that I can be an inferior warrior to orcs" People want to be elves because they think they look cool and like the feeling of coming from that culture. I realize that in your mind Not EQ1 = bad but try and think a little more critically about things and you'll see why it's a stupid idea.
I like races to have actual distinctive differences. I don't want just another skin for some homogenous character. Racial traits and abilities should be placed in the game. I choose a race because that race should be better at the class I'm going for. I'm not choosing a race because of it's background. I voted to have race/class restrictions because it makes the most sense. I also don't think this is an RP issue. Choosing our race should give game play advantages, and all races should have advantages under different circumstances.
Their first point in their presentation was class freedom, Imposing class restrictions based on race is against the class freedom that they promoted.
Also, in a system with 40 classes where the class is only 4 abilities that you get access to I am not even sure you can call it classes, its more of an ability theme that you select. Restricting access to ability themes is what classes do in other games, so in many ways your race has now become your class, it tells you what you can(t) learn.
Imposing class restrictions does not go against freedom. They could have designed the game to where you had your class and only your class abilities. What they did was give us extra class abilities to use. Let's say they were to limit races to 30 classes each (this is just for argument sake); look at it this way, now a player can have not only 4 character abilities but 4x30=120 abilities. Even in limiting race/class combinations they have still opened up more freedom than the traditional mmo. Freedom is not about getting to choose anything you want, it's more about having more flexibility; which you will still get even if they implement race/class restrictions.
I think some of you really really need to watch the Lore Panel , the lore isn't the same as EQ1/EQ2, the races aren't the same, a lot of things have changed and it doesn't lend itself toward strict race restrictions and yet I see people just gong on and on about "lore this" and "lore that."
AT the same time they ignore that they are basically asking for racial stereotypes to be forced upon other people.
All gnomes are weak, all dwarves are strong, all ogres are dumb.
Now replace that with our real-world races, all blacks are, all asians are, see the problem?
There is NO logical reason that an ogre can't do this or that, who is to say your ogre isn't different,t hat he didn't have a fascination with magic at a young age and left his homeland and studied magic?
Who's to say your gnome didn't get abandoned and found by a family of dwarves and he took up the hammer ?
Forcing people into stereotypical roles leads to less choice, less variety.
Except your example are all humans with the same basic genetic code. Who says an Ogre's brain can genetically be the same as a humans. Animals can not achieve the same level of intelligence due to brain design. Do not confuse our stupid use of "race" in the real world with the actual meaning of race as different distinctly developed creatures.
Most of the races if not all have the basic intelligence required to learn and adapt.
Written language skills, verbal language, use of tools, building, etc. IF a race is capable of doing these it stands to logical reasoning that they could learn and do many other things rather then all being restricted to one stereotype.
We can even recognize this kind of behavior, a sense of individuality in animals in our real world.
Do you think all dogs are the same? All animals in general? No.
Not all dogs are the same, but not even the smartest dog would ever be as smart as a Dolphin/Porpoise. Yes we have dumb humans, and we have smart humans, but on a grand scale we don't have "races" we have ethnicity.
I don't even need to know about EQ1 and EQ2 lore to make an argument that EQN lore should play a part in the discussion. We already know from the panels and videos that some races are smaller and have less mass than other races. We also are guessing that not all playable races were with the Combine; so even though a few races were together for 500 years, that still leaves other races that would have developed similar but different classes outside of the combine. This could also explain why an SK and Paladin are mutually exclusive; if a Paladin was a class that was from the Combine and an SK was from the Teir'Dal. Sure both classes originated from the same base class, but they changed over 500 years so they aren't the same any more. That would be a good lore reason to limit the race/classes for those particular 2 classes.
What do we do about a race that is incapable of learning magic because they have not magic in their body, to the point they are actually anti-magic. Now I'm not saying this is in the Lore, but it is plausible. If an anti-magic race did exist then it just isn't feasible for that race to play any type of a caster class. This is just 1 example of why race/class restrictions are good based off of the new lore.
You mention Gnome's being at a huge disadvantage, what about Dwarves? They are small in stature just like gnomes, but they are generally considered some of the best warriors in fantasy games. Is it really far fetched then to say in a fantasy setting, that a gnome can't become strong, learn to fight and be as comparable to fighting as a dwarf?
Gnomes are a completely different race. There are genetical differences and limitations that they could not overcome.
Your question is more along the lines of, "Could a cat, unimpressed with the standard feline life, not choose to run off at an early age and dedicate its life to training and bulking so that he may pull a load with the best of horses?" No, no matter how long a cat would try, it would never be able to do so. They are simply not built for it.
These are cats to dogs to horses to dolphins. They are not simply different humans.
Now with new lore, they could make them as such. But I believe a lot of people are expressing that they would find that more boring.
As for my personal feelings, I think gnomes as a race would develop some form of fighting "class.". Their version of the warrior would simply fight and rely on completely different tactics and ways to go about things than another race (that may not even be anywhere near the stereotypical warrior image), and thus they should have their own unique class (not a blind mirror).
Here , lemme try this one more time, and make it as simple as I can.
Lets take 2 warriors based off of Strength alone for the control example.
Warrior A: an OGRE
Warrior B: a HALFLING
They both go to golds gym and both work out as hard as they can, for 4 years. After they are done, who wins in a hand to hand combat battle? Exactly , if you have a brain, you said OGRE. Why? Because no matter how much they both Bulk up, the OGRE has a natural advantage, and always will based off of size for the most part, and a little from culture. That would be very realistic in this example. True to the core of fantasy based games.
The OGRE walks over and with maybe 3 swings, beats the hell out of the HALFLING.
Now lets take those same 2 warriors from above, and make them fight with no racial class limitations or racial abilities.
The OGRE and HALFLING will fight for hours, then both drop from exhaustion. GOOFY, STUPID LOOKING, CHILDISH GAME PLAY. Lets leave this BS to lego MMOs, shall we?
Now, to those that are upset at the idea of races having advantages like the OGRE does over the HALFLING in the 1st example , you will need to watch every video from the las vegas EQN debut. Listen to what they tell you about the game.
Once you have done that, you SHOULD understand that the way they are setting the game up, you can STILL be a warrior and be just as powerful as the OGRE warrior using any other race, but instead of using only strength like the OGRE, you use Your Advantage your race offers, be it speed, agility , intelligence , what ever.
Lets see what happens now WITH racial abilities and racial class limitations.
The OGRE stays the same, because he Can be a warrior.
The HALFLING might be limited to a few warrior classes because hes so small , lets use some fake warrior class names you might find in EQN that HALFLINGS could use.
Swashbuckler
Swordmaster
EdgeRunner
BladeSpinner
Lets say these 4 do not need huge heavy swords, or tons of heavy armor. With these, the HALFLING now gets his 8 slots all set up. Essentially , hes still a warrior.
THEY FIGHT!
The OGRE comes in and POUND!, but this time he misses, the hobbit rolls out of the way, knee stabbs (Causing knockdown), does a pummel back hand to the head (DAZE) and an ear to ear throat swipe. All before the OGRE could make a second move.
THIS is why I want racial abilities And Class limitations/restrictions IN the game.
You mention Gnome's being at a huge disadvantage, what about Dwarves? They are small in stature just like gnomes, but they are generally considered some of the best warriors in fantasy games. Is it really far fetched then to say in a fantasy setting, that a gnome can't become strong, learn to fight and be as comparable to fighting as a dwarf?
Gnomes are a completely different race. There are genetical differences and limitations that they could not overcome.
Your question is more along the lines of, "Could a cat, unimpressed with the standard feline life, not choose to run off at an early age and dedicate its life to training and bulking so that he may pull a load with the best of horses?" No, no matter how long a cat would try, it would never be able to do so. They are simply not built for it.
These are cats to dogs to horses to dolphins. They are not simply different humans.
Now with new lore, they could make them as such. But I believe a lot of people are expressing that they would find that more boring.
As for my personal feelings, I think gnomes as a race would develop some form of fighting "class.". Their version of the warrior would simply fight and rely on completely different tactics and ways to go about things than another race (that may not even be anywhere near the stereotypical warrior image), and thus they should have their own unique class (not a blind mirror).
But those are just my thoughts :P
Maybe I haven't been wording things as clearly.
My point is, that as an rpg, one of the main points of an rpg is to allow the player to take a character and "make" that character their own.
We are generally given the ability to do this both visually (looks, sometimes to great degrees like heigh, weight, muscle mass, etc) as well as stat wise, raising strength, int, all that kind of stuff.
Just like humans, there are very many different humans, from tall ones, short ones, big, little, smart, dumb, etc.
Does someone say, born with the genetics to reach a height of only 4ft stand a chance of dunking int he NBA against someone who's 6foot +? No.
However unlike real life, when we make a character in an rpg, we control how they look (generally), we do not have to roll with a random character that the game picks for us like we have to in real life.
You bring up a cat and a horse, and to show you what I'm getting at:
Each of those belong to one species, but within that species there exist a wide range of different breeds/races whatever you want to refer to them as, and these can vary quite dramatically in statue, what they are capable of, etc.
Now I never said there couldn't be differences. I am not arguing against having races that play within a class differently then another race. I am merely talking about not having the choice to play as a class and taking it away from a race completely.
I just do not want races that are all one-dimensional fantasy tropes, stupid ogres, elf mages, dwarf warriors, etc. I want races to have variety, to be allowed for players to make of them what they want of their character.
Having a gnome warrior, they might fight differently then an Ogre warrior (as Laiquendi posted about above this post). It would stand to reason with their shorter stature/lower strength then an ogre they would probably use different weapons (IE no polearms) and armour would be made specifically for them, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to pick up a melee weapon, wear armour, and fight.
Same goes for an Ogre Archer vs an elven archer. The elf archer might be quicker , able to shoot arrows quickly, but the ogre might be able to use larger arrows/bows and put more power behind his shots.
I think things like that would actually ADD to the game, if each race had "differences" in certian classes (Where it would make sense).
I am just against races being locked out of the classes completley and saying "no, your gnome can't be a melee fighter, or your ogre can't use magic, etc.
All the races(they really should be called species , I don't know why video games refer to such things as races) in EQ are intelligent beings, capable of reading/writing/language skills, they have basic civilizations.
Compared to our real world, where humans are the only species capable of all of these. It stands to logical reasoning that such beings would be capable of learning things, adapting, using tools, and with the lore of EQN (them being together and starting over) they could easily learn things from other races.
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Me too
I think some of you really really need to watch the Lore Panel , the lore isn't the same as EQ1/EQ2, the races aren't the same, a lot of things have changed and it doesn't lend itself toward strict race restrictions and yet I see people just gong on and on about "lore this" and "lore that."
AT the same time they ignore that they are basically asking for racial stereotypes to be forced upon other people.
All gnomes are weak, all dwarves are strong, all ogres are dumb.
Now replace that with our real-world races, all blacks are, all asians are, see the problem?
There is NO logical reason that an ogre can't do this or that, who is to say your ogre isn't different,t hat he didn't have a fascination with magic at a young age and left his homeland and studied magic?
Who's to say your gnome didn't get abandoned and found by a family of dwarves and he took up the hammer ?
Forcing people into stereotypical roles leads to less choice, less variety.
Except your example are all humans with the same basic genetic code. Who says an Ogre's brain can genetically be the same as a humans. Animals can not achieve the same level of intelligence due to brain design. Do not confuse our stupid use of "race" in the real world with the actual meaning of race as different distinctly developed creatures.
Most of the races if not all have the basic intelligence required to learn and adapt.
Written language skills, verbal language, use of tools, building, etc. IF a race is capable of doing these it stands to logical reasoning that they could learn and do many other things rather then all being restricted to one stereotype.
We can even recognize this kind of behavior, a sense of individuality in animals in our real world.
Do you think all dogs are the same? All animals in general? No.
That doesn't really explain eq2 then....
Hm? last time I checked eq2 still has class restrictions based on your characters "faction" unless you choose one of the netural ones.
And even if not, lets not pretend eq2 was ever a sucsess.
Excellent example actually. Only certain breeds of dogs lend themselves to certain tasks well, so while I suppose Yorkshire Terriers could pull a sled, people tend to stick to larger breeds, specifically huskies in most cases due to certain physical advantages they have in that sort of work.
Same reason certain breeds are used to herd sheep, ferret out rodents or play guard duties, their best suited to their tasks and the same holds true in a fantasy game.
Even in the canine world there's significant differences in intelligence, and you again, certain dogs are better suited to tasks that require greater amounts of it.
Sure, you can have gnome warriors, but they should be at such a huge disadvantage to an Orc that effectively, there's no reason to really code them into the game.
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This doesn't mean one class should be banned from acquiring a class though imo. This is where attributes would come into play to address certain races being more or less adept at executing their class' abilities.
Personally there are 3 options I would be totally fine with:
1: Totally Restricted based on Race.
2: Heavy Penalties for using a class not common to your race.
3: Extremly Difficult to obtain (months of work per class) if they are not common the your race.
The only thing I truely don't want to see is a system where you race does not mather in any significant way, I don't say that as just as a eq player, but as a rpg gamer.
Dogs are all the same species, that's my point. You have one species, then you have various differences withint hat species, the species as a whole isn't one dimensional/allt he same, like one ogre can be different from another ogre.
You're dividing dogs up into different breeds, that's like dividing up say, Elves into "wood elves, dark elves" and so on.
You mention Gnome's being at a huge disadvantage, what about Dwarves? They are small in stature just like gnomes, but they are generally considered some of the best warriors in fantasy games. Is it really far fetched then to say in a fantasy setting, that a gnome can't become strong, learn to fight and be as comparable to fighting as a dwarf?
Dwarves are brawny by nature, while gnomes and scrawny by nature, its pretty far fetched that a gnome would have the same warrior potential as a dwarf, yes.
So you're telling me it's impossible for a gnome to get fit and build up his muscles?
Pretty sure thats not what I said, a race that is scrawny by nature would however have stricter physical limitations then a race that is brawny by nature.
eq never loosened class restrictions except halflings being rangers which they make sense for aNY way their wise and agile and gnomes sks which also made some sense, they werent great sksIF (and its a big IF) they decide to make the races different in more ways than just the graphics then there is NO WAY a gnome should be able to bulk up to the point of matching an Ogre, Orc Human ELF or for that matter ANY other common fantasy race.
Does that relegate gnome warriors to a substandard position NO
If they design the game mechanics well, an agile and skill full warrior should be a match for a bulked up STR based warrior
Bu they would have to play differently.
Having said that, I have my doubts that they will have anything more than a cosmetic racial difference.
Very few if any MMOs in the last 6+ years have had true racial differences.
I wiah they would, but I bet they dont.
P.S. this can work the other way as well, the Ogre mage/caster or what ever may not have the raw grunt of an elf or gnome caster but in a well designed game mechanic all that stamina, muscle, and general toughness MAY allow him to cast longer, suffer more blowback, and generally compensate for a basic lack of mental aptitude.
I like races to have actual distinctive differences. I don't want just another skin for some homogenous character. Racial traits and abilities should be placed in the game. I choose a race because that race should be better at the class I'm going for. I'm not choosing a race because of it's background. I voted to have race/class restrictions because it makes the most sense. I also don't think this is an RP issue. Choosing our race should give game play advantages, and all races should have advantages under different circumstances.
Imposing class restrictions does not go against freedom. They could have designed the game to where you had your class and only your class abilities. What they did was give us extra class abilities to use. Let's say they were to limit races to 30 classes each (this is just for argument sake); look at it this way, now a player can have not only 4 character abilities but 4x30=120 abilities. Even in limiting race/class combinations they have still opened up more freedom than the traditional mmo. Freedom is not about getting to choose anything you want, it's more about having more flexibility; which you will still get even if they implement race/class restrictions.
Not all dogs are the same, but not even the smartest dog would ever be as smart as a Dolphin/Porpoise. Yes we have dumb humans, and we have smart humans, but on a grand scale we don't have "races" we have ethnicity.
I don't even need to know about EQ1 and EQ2 lore to make an argument that EQN lore should play a part in the discussion. We already know from the panels and videos that some races are smaller and have less mass than other races. We also are guessing that not all playable races were with the Combine; so even though a few races were together for 500 years, that still leaves other races that would have developed similar but different classes outside of the combine. This could also explain why an SK and Paladin are mutually exclusive; if a Paladin was a class that was from the Combine and an SK was from the Teir'Dal. Sure both classes originated from the same base class, but they changed over 500 years so they aren't the same any more. That would be a good lore reason to limit the race/classes for those particular 2 classes.
What do we do about a race that is incapable of learning magic because they have not magic in their body, to the point they are actually anti-magic. Now I'm not saying this is in the Lore, but it is plausible. If an anti-magic race did exist then it just isn't feasible for that race to play any type of a caster class. This is just 1 example of why race/class restrictions are good based off of the new lore.
Gnomes are a completely different race. There are genetical differences and limitations that they could not overcome.
Your question is more along the lines of, "Could a cat, unimpressed with the standard feline life, not choose to run off at an early age and dedicate its life to training and bulking so that he may pull a load with the best of horses?" No, no matter how long a cat would try, it would never be able to do so. They are simply not built for it.
These are cats to dogs to horses to dolphins. They are not simply different humans.
Now with new lore, they could make them as such. But I believe a lot of people are expressing that they would find that more boring.
As for my personal feelings, I think gnomes as a race would develop some form of fighting "class.". Their version of the warrior would simply fight and rely on completely different tactics and ways to go about things than another race (that may not even be anywhere near the stereotypical warrior image), and thus they should have their own unique class (not a blind mirror).
But those are just my thoughts :P
Here , lemme try this one more time, and make it as simple as I can.
Lets take 2 warriors based off of Strength alone for the control example.
Warrior A: an OGRE
Warrior B: a HALFLING
They both go to golds gym and both work out as hard as they can, for 4 years. After they are done, who wins in a hand to hand combat battle? Exactly , if you have a brain, you said OGRE. Why? Because no matter how much they both Bulk up, the OGRE has a natural advantage, and always will based off of size for the most part, and a little from culture. That would be very realistic in this example. True to the core of fantasy based games.
The OGRE walks over and with maybe 3 swings, beats the hell out of the HALFLING.
Now lets take those same 2 warriors from above, and make them fight with no racial class limitations or racial abilities.
The OGRE and HALFLING will fight for hours, then both drop from exhaustion. GOOFY, STUPID LOOKING, CHILDISH GAME PLAY. Lets leave this BS to lego MMOs, shall we?
Now, to those that are upset at the idea of races having advantages like the OGRE does over the HALFLING in the 1st example , you will need to watch every video from the las vegas EQN debut. Listen to what they tell you about the game.
Once you have done that, you SHOULD understand that the way they are setting the game up, you can STILL be a warrior and be just as powerful as the OGRE warrior using any other race, but instead of using only strength like the OGRE, you use Your Advantage your race offers, be it speed, agility , intelligence , what ever.
Lets see what happens now WITH racial abilities and racial class limitations.
The OGRE stays the same, because he Can be a warrior.
The HALFLING might be limited to a few warrior classes because hes so small , lets use some fake warrior class names you might find in EQN that HALFLINGS could use.
Swashbuckler
Swordmaster
EdgeRunner
BladeSpinner
Lets say these 4 do not need huge heavy swords, or tons of heavy armor. With these, the HALFLING now gets his 8 slots all set up. Essentially , hes still a warrior.
THEY FIGHT!
The OGRE comes in and POUND!, but this time he misses, the hobbit rolls out of the way, knee stabbs (Causing knockdown), does a pummel back hand to the head (DAZE) and an ear to ear throat swipe. All before the OGRE could make a second move.
THIS is why I want racial abilities And Class limitations/restrictions IN the game.
Maybe I haven't been wording things as clearly.
My point is, that as an rpg, one of the main points of an rpg is to allow the player to take a character and "make" that character their own.
We are generally given the ability to do this both visually (looks, sometimes to great degrees like heigh, weight, muscle mass, etc) as well as stat wise, raising strength, int, all that kind of stuff.
Just like humans, there are very many different humans, from tall ones, short ones, big, little, smart, dumb, etc.
Does someone say, born with the genetics to reach a height of only 4ft stand a chance of dunking int he NBA against someone who's 6foot +? No.
However unlike real life, when we make a character in an rpg, we control how they look (generally), we do not have to roll with a random character that the game picks for us like we have to in real life.
You bring up a cat and a horse, and to show you what I'm getting at:
Big cat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zOWYj59BXI
Small horse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7JbIPN8H9k
Each of those belong to one species, but within that species there exist a wide range of different breeds/races whatever you want to refer to them as, and these can vary quite dramatically in statue, what they are capable of, etc.
Now I never said there couldn't be differences. I am not arguing against having races that play within a class differently then another race. I am merely talking about not having the choice to play as a class and taking it away from a race completely.
I just do not want races that are all one-dimensional fantasy tropes, stupid ogres, elf mages, dwarf warriors, etc. I want races to have variety, to be allowed for players to make of them what they want of their character.
Having a gnome warrior, they might fight differently then an Ogre warrior (as Laiquendi posted about above this post). It would stand to reason with their shorter stature/lower strength then an ogre they would probably use different weapons (IE no polearms) and armour would be made specifically for them, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to pick up a melee weapon, wear armour, and fight.
Same goes for an Ogre Archer vs an elven archer. The elf archer might be quicker , able to shoot arrows quickly, but the ogre might be able to use larger arrows/bows and put more power behind his shots.
I think things like that would actually ADD to the game, if each race had "differences" in certian classes (Where it would make sense).
I am just against races being locked out of the classes completley and saying "no, your gnome can't be a melee fighter, or your ogre can't use magic, etc.
All the races(they really should be called species , I don't know why video games refer to such things as races) in EQ are intelligent beings, capable of reading/writing/language skills, they have basic civilizations.
Compared to our real world, where humans are the only species capable of all of these. It stands to logical reasoning that such beings would be capable of learning things, adapting, using tools, and with the lore of EQN (them being together and starting over) they could easily learn things from other races.