Apparently, incremental progress just doesn't cut it: you either tick every box that a particular poster thinks is vital or you can forget about it--never mind the fact that they won't agree on the full list of "must" features: No FFA OWPVP? it sucks... instancing? it sucks... has levels? it sucks... it's not a universally acknowledge, certified sandbox? it sucks... so much repetitive noise.
So...there's a lot of hyperbole here. Well sure, it IS a forum and all. When extremist rhetoric is intentionally outlandish, it makes for great entertainment.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Kyleran: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
[thinks hard of something to say]
Kyleran: The tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!
[Kyleran runs out, alone; then returns]
Kyleran: What the fuck happened to the MMORPG gamers I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? This could be the greatest era of our lives, but you're gonna let it be the worst. "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Kyleran, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this.....
Otter: ...Kyleran's right. Psychotic... but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons, but that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part!
And there you have it. It may all seem rather pointless, but at the end of the day, there's a small chance that our rantings will have some affect on a developer (or future developer) and one day we'll see some new (or old) ideas come into play that we are looking for.
Even now game developers seem to be starting to incorporate (or even reincorporate) ideas that some of us favor, (granted, could just be luck, but I like to think they have decided to listen to some of us) so there's no reason to really give up on our tirades.
At the end of the day it's the only action we really have besides refusing to participate, which is what some of us like myself are currently doing. I used to spend up to $75.00 /month on subs, currently spending nothing, lots of cash being left on the table by not catering to my niche.
Besides, forum PVP is darn fun when your stuck at work, so not likely to cease and desist any time soon. Welcome to my house.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That leaves the last question. Are the changes heading the genre in the right direction?
I don't think there is a "right" or a "wrong" direction. There is only preferred directions, preferred by different types of players.
Here's the issue. And it's one I think you can relate to. I have seen in the past that you like the quick play, the new experiences, the fast action style of these games and you are ok with moving on the the next game once you have outgrown your current. Actually, I hadn't expected that in an MMORPG forum. I had always been under the impression that people here wanted the next game they could call home. Like I do. I want the next MMO that I am going to log into every day, month after month, year after year....well, at least for a couple, I'd be very happy with that. So, now we have 2 groups that want different things out of our games. And they appear to be at opposite ends. So, What I see now are several issues. the 1st being , There is no more "1 size fits all" kind of game. And developers shooting for it, are setting up to fail. That's why it looks like SoE is thinking they have the older games, and are willingly cutting ties with that player base in the next game. Will it work? Financially, I think it will. At least for the short term. But cutting those ties may also come back to bite them later like almost everything they do does.
And there you have it. It may all seem rather pointless, but at the end of the day, there's a small chance that our rantings will have some affect on a developer (or future developer) and one day we'll see some new (or old) ideas come into play that we are looking for.
That seems to be highly inefficient way of using your time. You are much better off just to find some other entertainment, which is plentiful in this day and age.
Personally, i am here just for the entertainment. No minds will ever be changed.
Originally posted by Mattatron Some people just really like things of poor quality. The reason why, exactly, escapes me. It's really not my business, actually.
Because "quality" is in the eye of the beholder. You mistake is to believe that there is one quality, and that is decided by you.
There is an understanding of the term "connoisseur" for a reason.
I think the word you really are looking for is "elitist"
I've had this discussion recently. Calling some concept elitist is only an attempt to discredit or otherwise dismiss it with no other evidence to the contrary than your opinion or hurt feeling.
If I am good at something, like baseball, and I can demonstrate that I am good at baseball in general, and if I tell you, 'you are not good at baseball', you can dismiss me, calling me elitist at your own peril. You're nullifying your own potential to grow from my potential to teach you aspects of baseball. You're not changing the fact that I am good at baseball.
The concept you are espousing is looking down on others and making out you are better than them because you are a "Connoisseur" and they are not. I can be naturally superb at baseball but not give a shit about the inner workings and not really have to concern myself with why, I just know I am good and the NY Yankees are willing to give me a multimillion dollar contract because of that, there are many many sportsmen around the world like this. I can also be the opposite as well and know everything technical about baseball and be a connoisseur but not be a top player and that's what you are saying.
But the main difference in sport there are levels of competence. I'll use English Football here as that's my sport, we have under 8's, upto under 15's, we have all levels through amateur to non-league semi-professional to full professional to Premier League to the top which is Champions League and then we have Messi at the very top, now if you are grouped with your peers you have a level playing field thats makes you good among them and you might improve to move to a different level, but you are not as good as Messi, though I hope Messi doesn't go around pointing this out to all under 14's and non-leaguers that would be elitist and that's what gamers do frequently and is what you are saying with your connoisseur term. Games are not sport and have a long way to go to be accepted as one, players only really need a little guidance to succeed in any game including heavy raiders but some gamers think because they can play 100 hours a week and beat little pixels on a screen they are somehow worthy of praise, these guys are not Messi and never will be.
For our non-football loving US, Canadian posters
Argentina, Barcelona and worlds best footballer Lionel Messi
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
That leaves the last question. Are the changes heading the genre in the right direction?
I don't think there is a "right" or a "wrong" direction. There is only preferred directions, preferred by different types of players.
Here's the issue. And it's one I think you can relate to. I have seen in the past that you like the quick play, the new experiences, the fast action style of these games and you are ok with moving on the the next game once you have outgrown your current. Actually, I hadn't expected that in an MMORPG forum. I had always been under the impression that people here wanted the next game they could call home. Like I do. I want the next MMO that I am going to log into every day, month after month, year after year....well, at least for a couple, I'd be very happy with that. So, now we have 2 groups that want different things out of our games. And they appear to be at opposite ends. So, What I see now are several issues. the 1st being , There is no more "1 size fits all" kind of game. And developers shooting for it, are setting up to fail. That's why it looks like SoE is thinking they have the older games, and are willingly cutting ties with that player base in the next game. Will it work? Financially, I think it will. At least for the short term. But cutting those ties may also come back to bite them later like almost everything they do does.
Who says SOE is doing a 1 size fit all game. May be they decide they want a new audience instead of the old one.
Who wouldn't? The old audience is small and whiny.
If wow hasn't found a new audience, and stuck to the old, it would not be as successful. Even if SOE don't want the WOW audience (frankly no one get that but Blizz), it does not mean they want the old audience.
Innovation is about finding a new audience, not sticking to the old.
Apparently, incremental progress just doesn't cut it: you either tick every box that a particular poster thinks is vital or you can forget about it--never mind the fact that they won't agree on the full list of "must" features: No FFA OWPVP? it sucks... instancing? it sucks... has levels? it sucks... it's not a universally acknowledge, certified sandbox? it sucks... so much repetitive noise.
So...there's a lot of hyperbole here. Well sure, it IS a forum and all. When extremist rhetoric is intentionally outlandish, it makes for great entertainment.
Just like Chauncy Gardiner and most other people, I like to watch too. But I prefer new episodes over repeats... I'm weird that way.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by GeezerGamer I had always been under the impression that people here wanted the next game they could call home. Like I do. I want the next MMO that I am going to log into every day, month after month, year after year....well, at least for a couple, I'd be very happy with that. So, now we have 2 groups that want different things out of our games. And they appear to be at opposite ends. So, What I see now are several issues. the 1st being , There is no more "1 size fits all" kind of game. And developers shooting for it, are setting up to fail. That's why it looks like SoE is thinking they have the older games, and are willingly cutting ties with that player base in the next game. Will it work? Financially, I think it will. At least for the short term. But cutting those ties may also come back to bite them later like almost everything they do does.
I think the bigger issue is the old player mindset. Companies like SOE still have EQ and EQII running so they already cover that gamer segment yet the gamers always think companies are going to cannibalize their old games by releasing, as an example, EQ 1 with a new engine/new graphics and call it EQNext. So they're going to spend 10s of millions or even over 100 million to get back the gamers they already have? Or are they going to spend that money and try to get a whole bunch of gamers they don't have while the ones they do have continue to play the game that is already there?
Yet at the same time all of these old gamers refuse to play the same old games they speak so highly about, so what is up with that? If the games are so great why aren't people playing them? Even more so if the games are so great and all of the old gamers DID get back into them, then the numbers would show that people want more games like that. Where as not playing/paying those games and then saying you want another game like that gives conflicting data and the hard number data is where companies are going to look. If 5000 people are playing EQ1 then a company isn't going to recreate that because they want 1 million people.
I also don't think companies are looking at a game as a means of hoping to get a large audience that plays it non-stop for a year or two because the numbers again aren't there to support that. Up to 90% of the MMO gamers tend to leave a new MMO within the first couple of months. So instead companies are looking at MMOs as games that people keep returning to and that is where f2p helps them a lot in their goal. It allows people to jump back in easily and then spend their way back to where they should be in they decide to stay. Then those players move on again and come back again and the cycle continues.
The way MMO gamers approach MMOs is what drives how companies develop MMOs. If gamers don't play the old MMOs, then companies don't develop ones like them. If companies make new MMOs with many of the same old features and players don't play them, then they try out new features. If MMO gamers don't stick with new MMOs long, then companies no longer design with players staying with the game for long periods of time. The consumers drive the market.
And there you have it. It may all seem rather pointless, but at the end of the day, there's a small chance that our rantings will have some affect on a developer (or future developer) and one day we'll see some new (or old) ideas come into play that we are looking for.
That seems to be highly inefficient way of using your time. You are much better off just to find some other entertainment, which is plentiful in this day and age.
Personally, i am here just for the entertainment. No minds will ever be changed.
You are correct, forums are for entertainment, trying to change the world is certainly a secondary driver and not the reason I'm here.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sadly forums are generally more entertaining than most MMORPG's after a few days.
I do think that eventually the whale players supporting the industry will tire of the same thing. We don't need a shift to the old guard of Everquest/UO brutal game play but there needs to be a happy medium of conveniences and challenge and substance.
I don't see MMORPG games heading in these directions. Different games will always offer different variety. Sorry but games don't need to evolve because of new younger player base coming in. Player preferences haven't really changed over the last 15 years.
The only thing that has changed, and which has caused gaming to evolve, is technology. That's all. In many cases improvements in graphics, memory capacity, CPU speed, internet speed, etc. have made older games and game systems obsolete.
Developers can continue to make the game they want to, as long as they are staying in tune with the their target demographics.
Sadly forums are generally more entertaining than most MMORPG's after a few days.
I do think that eventually the whale players supporting the industry will tire of the same thing. We don't need a shift to the old guard of Everquest/UO brutal game play but there needs to be a happy medium of conveniences and challenge and substance.
Happy for whom?
I am pretty happy right now.
The only thing missing (for me) is a better difficulty slider in more games so that i can choose the level of challenge my mood call for.
Right now, that is available only in some MMOs like Marvel Heroes (you can choose a green (easier) or red (harder) terminal and also which level you want to play).
The MMORPG genre is evolving in order to stay relevant as well as to attract some gamers who used to avoid the genre.
Solo play will be king. Grouping will not be required to get the things you need or to level.
Leveling will continue to get faster until eventually companies start experimenting with no levels at all. The endgame is the focus that isn't going away.
Forced Open World PvP is simply not going to be the way major titles are developed. It chases away too much of the market. A PvP server or a small indie game are what you will have.
Instanced dungeons are not going away.
The trinity is going away. People want to have fun with their class and play with who they want to.
30 skills in multiple skill bars is going away. Action combat with a few skills will be the focus from now on.
Auto grouping public quests are going to become more and more common.
Quick travel/little to no down time will be the norm.
Quick changing of class (or multiple trees that can be swapped between) will stay as people want to do different things without rolling up all new characters.
Etc. etc. etc.
Instead of making threads every day (and for every new game that gets announced) asking why they aren't doing trinity, why they have instances, why they have action combat, etc etc. can't we all accept that is where the genre is going? Instead people should be discussing the other parts of the game and ways those could be improved instead of beating the dead horse while being resistant to where the genre and market are going.
I started off with The Realm, then UO, then EQ, then AC, then DAoC, WoW, and on and on. I played almost all of the early titles and many more in the years that followed. There are things I like that aren't coming back either because they simply aren't mainstream enough to be profitable. But you can't sit there and demand they go back to the old school. You can't demand they make yet another WoW clone that will fail instantly simply because you like that style of game (yet refuse to play the game that is exactly like WoW, it is called WoW).
It would be like stomping your feet when Duke Nukem 3D and other shooters allowed the camera to move up and down because you liked Doom so much. Or complaining that Mario switched from a side scroller to 3D worlds. Genres advance, adapt, and change to keep up with both technology and the shifting consumers. You can't unwind that so let's just move forward and actually talk about new things once in a while instead of having the 100th thread on the trinity or the 300th thread on how EQNext is doing it wrong because you want EQ1 with a better graphics engine. Time to move forward and adapt with the genre.
You attitude has allowed MTV to single handedly ruin "popular" music. It used to be that even the "pop" music was quality, take for example the Beatles. Now "pop" music is all Justin Bieber and 1 Direction. Why? Cuz we sat down, and accepted it. We turned on MTV and said" Holy crap that is horrible, but since it gets play time, I will go buy it."
So, no I wont just accept it and move on.
Not true, music fragmented and Pop music became its own genre that funnily enough dominates the Pop music charts, whereas Techno, House, Drum and Bass etc.. would dominate the Dance charts and Bluegrass, Appalachian, American Folk etc.. would be in the Country music charts. Though quality is there is if you enjoy One Direction or Lady Gaga just like I love minimal Techno but I wouldn't expect it to be popular and for others to think it good, to me though Ritchie Hawtin and Robert Hood are genius. Games are going the same way but at a slower pace as games take a lot more effort and money than knocking up a tune or two in your spare time does. Once fully featured engines become cheap enough you'll see a revolution in gaming akin to the Punk and DIY explosion in music in the 70's.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Ok, so now a group has been formed, either by LFD or actually inviting other random people vis LFG chat channel. On to step 2.
Now that you are in a group, however it was formed, is there anything stopping you from talking to people in your group? No. Therefore, automated systems don't affect your interactions, the player does. In either case, you have strangers in your group. It's up to you to socialize, or not. It's not the game's fault.
Of course it affects your ability to interact. You're now not only in combat but these game also often use action combat which leaves very little time for interactions.
Someone said the other day "Making groups is part of the challenge of EQ, and one of the reasons I like it".
Making groups in EQ could take a while if we needed a very specific group make-up, well, what did we do in the meantime....sit down next to each other and socialise.
EQ is 50% gameplay and 50% chatbox, and that's why people who are unable or unwilling to socialise and are of the NOW NOW NOW ideology, don't prosper in it.
While i agree with some of your points, you have to understand that things are not like this anymore.
It took some of our groups in FFXI upwards of 8 hours to form. In that time we bullshitted away for hours and some became friends. This was a decade ago. It doesn't work like this anymore. People have more social options now.
Today players are more likely to alt-tab and read a forum, chat on Skype, chat on TS, surf Facebook, respond to Twitch followers and check their stream, put on Netflix on a second monitor or TV, watch some YouTube vids, or check Twitter and Reddit.
The utter lack of social options was what encouraged players to talk to each other in game. It's never going to be like this again even if every single aspect in game is based around players being codependent.
I'm certainly not surprised there are a lot of opinions on my topic.
Here is another example. I grew up enjoying turn based strategy games. You know the ones like XCOM where you had a squad of guys and you took turns moving each one and the computer (or other player) took turns moving theirs. Eventually RTS games came out and for a while they coexisted, but eventually RTS won out because it was faster and more exciting. Yes, they finally made a new XCOM game, but at the same time no one should be surprised that most major companies avoid turn based strategy because the audience is just so small there is no room for more to be made.
The same is happening to MMOs. I grew up on the took forever to level, took a group to get things done, plenty of down time, no hand holding, etc. And I enjoyed those games immensely. In order for the genre to grow they had to first add quest finding (marks over NPCs heads) and speed up the process. As they continued to refine, they got to where they are now. You may see a small indie company here and there go back and try the old school method, but there isn't enough of an audience there for major companies to put their focus on it.
It simply isn't about what us old timers want. It is what the mass market wants. Gamers as a whole want faster, want more action, want more soloable, want to be told where to go, etc..Fighting that will lead to hundreds of repetitive threads with the old arguing against the new and no change or further progress in said discussion than any other time. Accepting it and moving forward could lead to actually productive things or at least newer discussions that haven't been had 15 times this week alone.
Sometimes you do just have to accept change.
I get what you are saying...but the highlighted portion is what sticks out. This is why there is a genre called console gaming...or even the millions of single player action games available via Steam for the PC. You can get all those things. Why change a whole separate genre of games to get what's already available?
That is what I don't get...other than WoW brought in all the console gamers and other non-MMORPG players (Via mass marketing...and with celebrities none the less) to something they previously knew little to nothing about...and changed for their sake to make gobs of cash. Which they obviously did.
Greed took the place of passion. And I don't want to hear the same tired "market" and "It's always about money" BS. Yes, a companies focus is obviously to make money, no one is arguing that. However, there was a time when the other focus was based on these companies making games they wanted to play, and wanted others to enjoy as they did and they put a lot of passion into them in the process.
Now they are just churned out a dime a dozen with the latest craze gimmicks and things that are hot at the time...just as Movie companies, T.V. companies, and music producers do...to herd the lemmings in and empty their wallets. That's the worse part of any change to the genre.
To me...it shows...at least from the smaller percentage of players that frequent this site...that the current trend isn't the most popular one. (Although I forgot to add PvP into the poll choices. But eh...that's why I added choice H. For people to voice their own choices.)
Again...things always change...and change is coming. If it's what you say, or what the majority of people who took the poll chose, or something else is yet to be seen. Time will tell.
I get what you are saying...but the highlighted portion is what sticks out. This is why there is a genre called console gaming...or even the millions of single player action games available via Steam for the PC. You can get all those things. Why change a whole separate genre of games to get what's already available?
You are confused who is driving the change.
It is not the solo, console players want MMOs to change. They wouldn't care less. It is the MMO devs who want a piece of the larger audience, and they change responding to market forces.
Let me put it this way .. if all MMOs are like UO and EQ, i wouldn't be bothered to play them, or even be here.
The reason I am giving MMOs *some* of my attention is because MMO devs are catering to my preferences, obviously wanting a piece of my business (or at least time). I see no reason not to give them some attention if indeed they produce some games i may like.
I get what you are saying...but the highlighted portion is what sticks out. This is why there is a genre called console gaming...or even the millions of single player action games available via Steam for the PC. You can get all those things. Why change a whole separate genre of games to get what's already available?
You are confused who is driving the change.
It is not the solo, console players want MMOs to change. They wouldn't care less. It is the MMO devs who want a piece of the larger audience, and they change responding to market forces.
Let me put it this way .. if all MMOs are like UO and EQ, i wouldn't be bothered to play them, or even be here.
The reason I am giving MMOs *some* of my attention is because MMO devs are catering to my preferences, obviously wanting a piece of my business (or at least time). I see no reason not to give them some attention if indeed they produce some games i may like.
Did you just stop there and post? Because you would have saved yourself time wasted typing that had you read the entire post where I mentioned something to that nature. Only not only sighting the obvious console player bas introduced..but the companies being greedy.
But you cannot seriously say that the player base doesn't have a lot to do with that.
I get what you are saying...but the highlighted portion is what sticks out. This is why there is a genre called console gaming...or even the millions of single player action games available via Steam for the PC. You can get all those things. Why change a whole separate genre of games to get what's already available?
You are confused who is driving the change.
It is not the solo, console players want MMOs to change. They wouldn't care less. It is the MMO devs who want a piece of the larger audience, and they change responding to market forces.
Let me put it this way .. if all MMOs are like UO and EQ, i wouldn't be bothered to play them, or even be here.
The reason I am giving MMOs *some* of my attention is because MMO devs are catering to my preferences, obviously wanting a piece of my business (or at least time). I see no reason not to give them some attention if indeed they produce some games i may like.
Actually, it's people like you that is hurting this industry.. You are on record that you will not support a MMO with $$$.. It's why you always promote free to play models or similar.. There will come a time that F2P games will be so saturated that no one is using the cash shop, and even those models will dry up and go away.. Sub based games are almost extinct as well.. This whole industry reminds me of a pack of cannibals eating each other to death.. It's pretty simple economics.. YOU can NOT have an infinite number of games to host a finite number of gamers.. There is a breaking point on just how many games can be supported.. I think that day is coming, sooner then later..
I get what you are saying...but the highlighted portion is what sticks out. This is why there is a genre called console gaming...or even the millions of single player action games available via Steam for the PC. You can get all those things. Why change a whole separate genre of games to get what's already available?
That is what I don't get...other than WoW brought in all the console gamers and other non-MMORPG players (Via mass marketing...and with celebrities none the less) to something they previously knew little to nothing about...and changed for their sake to make gobs of cash. Which they obviously did.
Greed took the place of passion. And I don't want to hear the same tired "market" and "It's always about money" BS. Yes, a companies focus is obviously to make money, no one is arguing that. However, there was a time when the other focus was based on these companies making games they wanted to play, and wanted others to enjoy as they did and they put a lot of passion into them in the process.
Now they are just churned out a dime a dozen with the latest craze gimmicks and things that are hot at the time...just as Movie companies, T.V. companies, and music producers do...to herd the lemmings in and empty their wallets. That's the worse part of any change to the genre.
To me...it shows...at least from the smaller percentage of players that frequent this site...that the current trend isn't the most popular one. (Although I forgot to add PvP into the poll choices. But eh...that's why I added choice H. For people to voice their own choices.)
Again...things always change...and change is coming. If it's what you say, or what the majority of people who took the poll chose, or something else is yet to be seen. Time will tell.
The users on this site are a very specific minority of the MMORPG playerbase. They don't even come close to representing what the majority of MMORPG gamers want. That is one of the problems, people on this site don't seem to realize that.
MMORPGs tried for a long time to do the slower, requires a group, less action, standard MMO fare. It didn't work. Now companies are doing what they natural do, trying different approaches to keep the genre alive because if they can't get the new approaches to work they aren't going back to the old, they're simply giving up on MMORPGs completely.
Originally posted by Swiftrevoir But GW2 is horrible, I mean I won't even play the game and the icon's sitting right there staring back at me on my desktop. Now EQnext is coming out with some comparable features and suddenly all we know and love is subject to the trash bin? Yes it hasn't been done well in a while, what with so many half-hearted efforts but there are a few promising titles being released soon. Namely FFXIV:A Realm Reborn. That is an oasis of semi-old school fun.
YOU say it's Horrible, yet it's Going Strong.
FFXIV???? Really? They released the game, It Sucked so bad they pulled it now have to REDO it and It is Promising?
I give a Game a Shot, it Sucks? I move on. I'm not going to waist my time and Money giving it a second Chance. Most gamers feel the same no matter how much people try to Hype things up.
It's all about money. People go with the trends or they get left behind. Games move forward, Not back. Problem is some people refuse to move forward and want to hold on to the games they started with that hooked them to begin with. I have my loves to, but I also want to move on instead of playing game 2 and game 3, that truly are game 1 with added graphics and new areas.
Let go of the past, it's good to look back with fondness but you will never get the feeling you had with your first loved MMO.
The MMORPG genre is evolving in order to stay relevant as well as to attract some gamers who used to avoid the genre.
Solo play will be king. Grouping will not be required to get the things you need or to level.
I can't accept that. The reason for that is that group play still is more fun and if MMOs start to reward group play more many players who solo right now would realize that as well. The problem really is that soloing is the fastest way to level right now.
Leveling will continue to get faster until eventually companies start experimenting with no levels at all. The endgame is the focus that isn't going away.
Actually, that makes sense to me. Taking away the levels altogether is far better than making them a 3 week tutorial and leaving the players in the last 5-10% of the content for years after that. A progression closer to the AAs in EQ2 would work fine alone.
Forced Open World PvP is simply not going to be the way major titles are developed. It chases away too much of the market. A PvP server or a small indie game are what you will have.
Nothing to do about that except make PvP better. If PvP becomes more fun more players will play it.
Instanced dungeons are not going away.
Neither should they but MMOs could afford making a few large open dungeons as well.
The trinity is going away. People want to have fun with their class and play with who they want to.
I have no problem with that but I think the other systems needs to improve their group mechanics. Trinity have been with us too long which make the games feel more or less the same but group mechanics must still exist, people needs to work together.
30 skills in multiple skill bars is going away. Action combat with a few skills will be the focus from now on.
Frankly were many of those skills very similar. 15 skills and more tactics when to use them (timing) will be at least as fun.
Auto grouping public quests are going to become more and more common.
That works fine sometimes (takes away kill stealing) but annoying at others. But, yes, it is here to stay.
Quick travel/little to no down time will be the norm.
Whatever, with todays small worlds it matters little to me. In a huge world such as EQ things would be different though.
Quick changing of class (or multiple trees that can be swapped between) will stay as people want to do different things without rolling up all new characters.
Respeccing is hardly something new and there is some tactics in it. No problem for me.
Etc. etc. etc.
My problem with modern MMOs is something completely different: Difficulty. And I blame the players for that. GW2 was epic at the first 2 beta weekends but whiners got the difficulty down so much that most of the game is incredible simple.
It might just be a turning trend that started around year 2000, all games suddenly become easier and easier but it might also be because many average Joes started gaming then. I hope they all move to Angry birds and similar mobile games instead so we can get our difficulty back.
I empathize with you about difficulty, I think the win/win solution is customizable difficulty and rewarding those who take on the stronger levels of challenge. Reward those who don't take the path of least resistance.
I empathize with you about difficulty, I think the win/win solution is customizable difficulty and rewarding those who take on the stronger levels of challenge. Reward those who don't take the path of least resistance.
It is never as easy as that. Let's say you make some group content really rewarding so that there is incentive to group, but there is still plenty of solo content for someone to level up on their own. People don't look at that as options, they look at it as being punished for not grouping because they aren't getting the big rewards.
The same goes for if you make very challenging content with big rewards. A lot of people now feel like they have to do it because any other rewards aren't good enough and then they get frustrated.
There is a mentality of everyone needing to have what everyone else has now. That makes people upset anytime their playstyle isn't as rewarding as another and it hamstrings development.
I empathize with you about difficulty, I think the win/win solution is customizable difficulty and rewarding those who take on the stronger levels of challenge. Reward those who don't take the path of least resistance.
It is never as easy as that. Let's say you make some group content really rewarding so that there is incentive to group, but there is still plenty of solo content for someone to level up on their own. People don't look at that as options, they look at it as being punished for not grouping because they aren't getting the big rewards.
It has been done before.
D3 did it with flying colors. There is incentive to group, and you can solo.
In WoW, there are different difficulties in raids (though no solo option).
Comments
I don't think there is a "right" or a "wrong" direction. There is only preferred directions, preferred by different types of players.
So...there's a lot of hyperbole here. Well sure, it IS a forum and all. When extremist rhetoric is intentionally outlandish, it makes for great entertainment.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think this dialogue (adaptations mine) from Animal House sums the situation up the best:
"Kyleran: What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter: [to Boon] Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
Kyleran: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
[thinks hard of something to say]
Kyleran: The tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!
[Kyleran runs out, alone; then returns]
Kyleran: What the fuck happened to the MMORPG gamers I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? This could be the greatest era of our lives, but you're gonna let it be the worst. "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Kyleran, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this.....
Otter: ...Kyleran's right. Psychotic... but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons, but that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part!
Kyleran: We're just the guys to do it!"
And there you have it. It may all seem rather pointless, but at the end of the day, there's a small chance that our rantings will have some affect on a developer (or future developer) and one day we'll see some new (or old) ideas come into play that we are looking for.
Even now game developers seem to be starting to incorporate (or even reincorporate) ideas that some of us favor, (granted, could just be luck, but I like to think they have decided to listen to some of us) so there's no reason to really give up on our tirades.
At the end of the day it's the only action we really have besides refusing to participate, which is what some of us like myself are currently doing. I used to spend up to $75.00 /month on subs, currently spending nothing, lots of cash being left on the table by not catering to my niche.
Besides, forum PVP is darn fun when your stuck at work, so not likely to cease and desist any time soon. Welcome to my house.
Quotes adapted from:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077975/quotes
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Here's the issue. And it's one I think you can relate to. I have seen in the past that you like the quick play, the new experiences, the fast action style of these games and you are ok with moving on the the next game once you have outgrown your current. Actually, I hadn't expected that in an MMORPG forum. I had always been under the impression that people here wanted the next game they could call home. Like I do. I want the next MMO that I am going to log into every day, month after month, year after year....well, at least for a couple, I'd be very happy with that. So, now we have 2 groups that want different things out of our games. And they appear to be at opposite ends. So, What I see now are several issues. the 1st being , There is no more "1 size fits all" kind of game. And developers shooting for it, are setting up to fail. That's why it looks like SoE is thinking they have the older games, and are willingly cutting ties with that player base in the next game. Will it work? Financially, I think it will. At least for the short term. But cutting those ties may also come back to bite them later like almost everything they do does.
That seems to be highly inefficient way of using your time. You are much better off just to find some other entertainment, which is plentiful in this day and age.
Personally, i am here just for the entertainment. No minds will ever be changed.
The concept you are espousing is looking down on others and making out you are better than them because you are a "Connoisseur" and they are not. I can be naturally superb at baseball but not give a shit about the inner workings and not really have to concern myself with why, I just know I am good and the NY Yankees are willing to give me a multimillion dollar contract because of that, there are many many sportsmen around the world like this. I can also be the opposite as well and know everything technical about baseball and be a connoisseur but not be a top player and that's what you are saying.
But the main difference in sport there are levels of competence. I'll use English Football here as that's my sport, we have under 8's, upto under 15's, we have all levels through amateur to non-league semi-professional to full professional to Premier League to the top which is Champions League and then we have Messi at the very top, now if you are grouped with your peers you have a level playing field thats makes you good among them and you might improve to move to a different level, but you are not as good as Messi, though I hope Messi doesn't go around pointing this out to all under 14's and non-leaguers that would be elitist and that's what gamers do frequently and is what you are saying with your connoisseur term. Games are not sport and have a long way to go to be accepted as one, players only really need a little guidance to succeed in any game including heavy raiders but some gamers think because they can play 100 hours a week and beat little pixels on a screen they are somehow worthy of praise, these guys are not Messi and never will be.
For our non-football loving US, Canadian posters
Argentina, Barcelona and worlds best footballer Lionel Messi
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Who says SOE is doing a 1 size fit all game. May be they decide they want a new audience instead of the old one.
Who wouldn't? The old audience is small and whiny.
If wow hasn't found a new audience, and stuck to the old, it would not be as successful. Even if SOE don't want the WOW audience (frankly no one get that but Blizz), it does not mean they want the old audience.
Innovation is about finding a new audience, not sticking to the old.
Just like Chauncy Gardiner and most other people, I like to watch too. But I prefer new episodes over repeats... I'm weird that way.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I think the bigger issue is the old player mindset. Companies like SOE still have EQ and EQII running so they already cover that gamer segment yet the gamers always think companies are going to cannibalize their old games by releasing, as an example, EQ 1 with a new engine/new graphics and call it EQNext. So they're going to spend 10s of millions or even over 100 million to get back the gamers they already have? Or are they going to spend that money and try to get a whole bunch of gamers they don't have while the ones they do have continue to play the game that is already there?
Yet at the same time all of these old gamers refuse to play the same old games they speak so highly about, so what is up with that? If the games are so great why aren't people playing them? Even more so if the games are so great and all of the old gamers DID get back into them, then the numbers would show that people want more games like that. Where as not playing/paying those games and then saying you want another game like that gives conflicting data and the hard number data is where companies are going to look. If 5000 people are playing EQ1 then a company isn't going to recreate that because they want 1 million people.
I also don't think companies are looking at a game as a means of hoping to get a large audience that plays it non-stop for a year or two because the numbers again aren't there to support that. Up to 90% of the MMO gamers tend to leave a new MMO within the first couple of months. So instead companies are looking at MMOs as games that people keep returning to and that is where f2p helps them a lot in their goal. It allows people to jump back in easily and then spend their way back to where they should be in they decide to stay. Then those players move on again and come back again and the cycle continues.
The way MMO gamers approach MMOs is what drives how companies develop MMOs. If gamers don't play the old MMOs, then companies don't develop ones like them. If companies make new MMOs with many of the same old features and players don't play them, then they try out new features. If MMO gamers don't stick with new MMOs long, then companies no longer design with players staying with the game for long periods of time. The consumers drive the market.
You are correct, forums are for entertainment, trying to change the world is certainly a secondary driver and not the reason I'm here.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sadly forums are generally more entertaining than most MMORPG's after a few days.
I do think that eventually the whale players supporting the industry will tire of the same thing. We don't need a shift to the old guard of Everquest/UO brutal game play but there needs to be a happy medium of conveniences and challenge and substance.
I don't see MMORPG games heading in these directions. Different games will always offer different variety. Sorry but games don't need to evolve because of new younger player base coming in. Player preferences haven't really changed over the last 15 years.
The only thing that has changed, and which has caused gaming to evolve, is technology. That's all. In many cases improvements in graphics, memory capacity, CPU speed, internet speed, etc. have made older games and game systems obsolete.
Developers can continue to make the game they want to, as long as they are staying in tune with the their target demographics.
Happy for whom?
I am pretty happy right now.
The only thing missing (for me) is a better difficulty slider in more games so that i can choose the level of challenge my mood call for.
Right now, that is available only in some MMOs like Marvel Heroes (you can choose a green (easier) or red (harder) terminal and also which level you want to play).
Not true, music fragmented and Pop music became its own genre that funnily enough dominates the Pop music charts, whereas Techno, House, Drum and Bass etc.. would dominate the Dance charts and Bluegrass, Appalachian, American Folk etc.. would be in the Country music charts. Though quality is there is if you enjoy One Direction or Lady Gaga just like I love minimal Techno but I wouldn't expect it to be popular and for others to think it good, to me though Ritchie Hawtin and Robert Hood are genius. Games are going the same way but at a slower pace as games take a lot more effort and money than knocking up a tune or two in your spare time does. Once fully featured engines become cheap enough you'll see a revolution in gaming akin to the Punk and DIY explosion in music in the 70's.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
While i agree with some of your points, you have to understand that things are not like this anymore.
It took some of our groups in FFXI upwards of 8 hours to form. In that time we bullshitted away for hours and some became friends. This was a decade ago. It doesn't work like this anymore. People have more social options now.
Today players are more likely to alt-tab and read a forum, chat on Skype, chat on TS, surf Facebook, respond to Twitch followers and check their stream, put on Netflix on a second monitor or TV, watch some YouTube vids, or check Twitter and Reddit.
The utter lack of social options was what encouraged players to talk to each other in game. It's never going to be like this again even if every single aspect in game is based around players being codependent.
I get what you are saying...but the highlighted portion is what sticks out. This is why there is a genre called console gaming...or even the millions of single player action games available via Steam for the PC. You can get all those things. Why change a whole separate genre of games to get what's already available?
That is what I don't get...other than WoW brought in all the console gamers and other non-MMORPG players (Via mass marketing...and with celebrities none the less) to something they previously knew little to nothing about...and changed for their sake to make gobs of cash. Which they obviously did.
Greed took the place of passion. And I don't want to hear the same tired "market" and "It's always about money" BS. Yes, a companies focus is obviously to make money, no one is arguing that. However, there was a time when the other focus was based on these companies making games they wanted to play, and wanted others to enjoy as they did and they put a lot of passion into them in the process.
Now they are just churned out a dime a dozen with the latest craze gimmicks and things that are hot at the time...just as Movie companies, T.V. companies, and music producers do...to herd the lemmings in and empty their wallets. That's the worse part of any change to the genre.
On a side note: I'd like to direct you to this poll I made a day or so ago. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/392995/Humor-me-Poll-on-MMORPG-interests.html
To me...it shows...at least from the smaller percentage of players that frequent this site...that the current trend isn't the most popular one. (Although I forgot to add PvP into the poll choices. But eh...that's why I added choice H. For people to voice their own choices.)
Again...things always change...and change is coming. If it's what you say, or what the majority of people who took the poll chose, or something else is yet to be seen. Time will tell.
You are confused who is driving the change.
It is not the solo, console players want MMOs to change. They wouldn't care less. It is the MMO devs who want a piece of the larger audience, and they change responding to market forces.
Let me put it this way .. if all MMOs are like UO and EQ, i wouldn't be bothered to play them, or even be here.
The reason I am giving MMOs *some* of my attention is because MMO devs are catering to my preferences, obviously wanting a piece of my business (or at least time). I see no reason not to give them some attention if indeed they produce some games i may like.
Did you just stop there and post? Because you would have saved yourself time wasted typing that had you read the entire post where I mentioned something to that nature. Only not only sighting the obvious console player bas introduced..but the companies being greedy.
But you cannot seriously say that the player base doesn't have a lot to do with that.
Actually, it's people like you that is hurting this industry.. You are on record that you will not support a MMO with $$$.. It's why you always promote free to play models or similar.. There will come a time that F2P games will be so saturated that no one is using the cash shop, and even those models will dry up and go away.. Sub based games are almost extinct as well.. This whole industry reminds me of a pack of cannibals eating each other to death.. It's pretty simple economics.. YOU can NOT have an infinite number of games to host a finite number of gamers.. There is a breaking point on just how many games can be supported.. I think that day is coming, sooner then later..
The users on this site are a very specific minority of the MMORPG playerbase. They don't even come close to representing what the majority of MMORPG gamers want. That is one of the problems, people on this site don't seem to realize that.
MMORPGs tried for a long time to do the slower, requires a group, less action, standard MMO fare. It didn't work. Now companies are doing what they natural do, trying different approaches to keep the genre alive because if they can't get the new approaches to work they aren't going back to the old, they're simply giving up on MMORPGs completely.
YOU say it's Horrible, yet it's Going Strong.
FFXIV???? Really? They released the game, It Sucked so bad they pulled it now have to REDO it and It is Promising?
I give a Game a Shot, it Sucks? I move on. I'm not going to waist my time and Money giving it a second Chance. Most gamers feel the same no matter how much people try to Hype things up.
It's all about money. People go with the trends or they get left behind. Games move forward, Not back. Problem is some people refuse to move forward and want to hold on to the games they started with that hooked them to begin with. I have my loves to, but I also want to move on instead of playing game 2 and game 3, that truly are game 1 with added graphics and new areas.
Let go of the past, it's good to look back with fondness but you will never get the feeling you had with your first loved MMO.
that's my opinion.
I empathize with you about difficulty, I think the win/win solution is customizable difficulty and rewarding those who take on the stronger levels of challenge. Reward those who don't take the path of least resistance.
It is never as easy as that. Let's say you make some group content really rewarding so that there is incentive to group, but there is still plenty of solo content for someone to level up on their own. People don't look at that as options, they look at it as being punished for not grouping because they aren't getting the big rewards.
The same goes for if you make very challenging content with big rewards. A lot of people now feel like they have to do it because any other rewards aren't good enough and then they get frustrated.
There is a mentality of everyone needing to have what everyone else has now. That makes people upset anytime their playstyle isn't as rewarding as another and it hamstrings development.
It has been done before.
D3 did it with flying colors. There is incentive to group, and you can solo.
In WoW, there are different difficulties in raids (though no solo option).
Difficulty adjustment is a good thing.