I used to grind instances in WoW for rare mount drops. One instance took me 181 runs before the mount dropped. @5 runs an hour, it took around 35 hours to get it.
Had someone else been able to log into the online store and purchase it, it really would have cheapened the whole process for me. Like, why bother doing the runs? Why not just spend the money? The pressure to spend the money in the online store instead of investing my time would diminish my in game experience. The second my Real life funds impact said in game experience, that is the second the game begins to lose its hold on me.
One of the great things about MMOs is that generally speaking, the only things that mattered in game were your ability and the time you could invest. Once outside factors begin to bleed into the game it changes the entire dynamic.
Then the developers and the community has to find the balancing act when and what can be in online store for it to work.
There is no balancing act. My feelings mirror the above poster. I'm done with Cash Shops. I am going to be playing FF14 starting today and for the future. It is the only game I am aware of that will not have MT/RMT in it. Sad as it is to say, for me, that's half the battle. The rest of the MMO need only be mediocre without a Cash Shop and it's already better that everything out there with one. Fortunately, FF14 is well above mediocre. So as long as it never implements a store, they'll get my money. Otherwise, I'm prepared to step away from MMOs GW2 really solidified this for me. The Cash Shop itself is fine. But the fact that the games economy is forcibly dependant on real money (If players get too much gold, the value of gems diminishes) means the metagaming aspect of it is severly impacted. I am a crafter and a market player. Cash Shops don't like the competition.
There can be no online store if it is to work.
I'm on the same page as well, having played a lot of F2P games I'm absolutely done with cash shops. My last foray being Rift which I had played since release but now they not only sell stat gear in the cash shop which would take you forever to grind for by just playing the game, but also the chat is now clogged with gold spam and an endless stream of immature garbage.
FFXIV ARR is the only game I plan on playing and will continue to play as long as they don't a) add a cash shop and/or b) make the game as easy and boring as WoW is now.
Pay to Win games will break the immersion of any game. I do not agree with any game that sells such items. EQ 1 my favorite game now sells horses and stat items. That should not be in a game.The community needs to have the power to moderate the game they are playing. Cash shops should just focus on cosmetic items and maybe convenience items as well, but that is debatable to what should be allowed and not. A balanced F2P game can work given the right circumstances.
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I think either pay system is fine as long as the game is good and the pay system does not break the game. A good game will have a great community that follows it. A Pay to Win system will break it. Subscription is definitely a way to avoid the balancing act of the F2P market. But I do not think for a moment that the business model makes people immature. I think you will find people you don't like no matter what game you play.
What if the goods in micro transaction do not affect gameplay but are just cosmetic? It almost sounds like there has to be products that you could buy for others if you wanted to. I think this would be ridiculous but lets say (as an example) a group micro transaction would be for the guild hall like a (kickstarter of sorts).I think that would be outrageous to ask the player base. But I cannot think of group/community oriented micro transactions. It is a very interesting point that you bring up. (Making me scratch my head thinking about it.) I think any group transaction would take away from the community. I do think it would be very possible to have cosmetic gifts for others. I think the superior good would be anything that would be pay to win. As long as the micro transaction is not that, then I still see the community holding firm (as long as the game is good and they love it, just like any other good game). A community would crumble if the game is unbalanced.
A group/community oriented type microtransaction could be a simple buff.
Instead of the item giving 10% bonus to yourself it would apply to a party, guild, server, etc.
What if the goods in micro transaction do not affect gameplay but are just cosmetic? It almost sounds like there has to be products that you could buy for others if you wanted to. I think this would be ridiculous but lets say (as an example) a group micro transaction would be for the guild hall like a (kickstarter of sorts).I think that would be outrageous to ask the player base. But I cannot think of group/community oriented micro transactions. It is a very interesting point that you bring up. (Making me scratch my head thinking about it.) I think any group transaction would take away from the community. I do think it would be very possible to have cosmetic gifts for others. I think the superior good would be anything that would be pay to win. As long as the micro transaction is not that, then I still see the community holding firm (as long as the game is good and they love it, just like any other good game). A community would crumble if the game is unbalanced.
A group/community oriented type microtransaction could be a simple buff.
Instead of the item giving 10% bonus to yourself it would apply to a party, guild, server, etc.
Thanks for the link, googled that exact article to read it before replying to you. Hmm that is a good thought, but 10% strength/agility/etc would unbalance the game though for pvp, pve. I could see developers abusing users that didn't get the buffs and making the game around having the 10% bonus. 10% bonus exp I think would be okay though.
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Maybe a faction bonus as well. Nothing that could not be earned in the game, but still not given right away would be fine. It would help with guilds trying to get certain items or getting another player up a certain faction.
Is it as simple then as old generation/ideas vs the new generation/ideas? Also are the underlined in the forums or are they books? (gah can anyone point me to a tutorial how to highlight, I can't figure it out for the life of me lol, PM if you don't mind to not clutter forum thanks!)
It's actually quite simple, in the editor, highlight what you want to change color on like this and on the bottom line, last two options to the right, you can change text color or background color to your heart's content.
This is a pretty good thread with some fairly balanced viewpoints. There are cases on both sides and many factors to consider. Even the type of game in question adds a bit to the equation, as the original FFXIV was free to play for well over a year and had an excellent community. Then there's WoW, which is quite the opposite in many ways despite having a Payment model wall. We also have Eve, which encourages PvP whereby there is a lot to lose, and many people are quite mean on their in more ways than just verbally. Next we have duty finders, which may or may not allow people to act different due to being with total strangers they may not see again (though I personally think they do more good than not for the game's numbers in the longterm with the community aspect being debatable as always).
Case and point we could also look at a free game called League of Legends. It boasts a competitive community whereby people tend to get a little involved with their game and their base nature shows more so than just jumping in the game with friends and having fun for free. The one reason I would say FF games have great communities is that there is usually some sort of challenge that brings players together either by efficiency or necessity, in addition to it being a primarily PvE game. If a game is challenging enough and doesn't have a serious competitive attitude in some way, it is likely that the community itself will be the better for it regardless of the payment model. Now that is not to say that PvP is bad, as such things as "Battlegrounds" with friends could also bring about much enjoyment and pump one's adrenaline. Though how many times have we all entered one of those in the past and just see people start arguing and turning on each other once something goes south? It may start with someone not doing what another thinks they're supposed to, but therein lies a potential problem with the competitive spirit in that many people sometimes want to blame others and not themselves when something goes wrong (the anti-community response where team work isn't efficient and there's veterans picking on new players).
Would payment models somewhat alleviate some potential problems as a whole? Maybe. Though it will also do the same for those who are very nice individuals who may have different values or likes as a whole. If one of the nicest people in the world prefers one model over the other, then he/she is locked out of something by personal belief or want. There are a lot of jerks who have money and are willing to pay for 5+ accounts at a time, or even multibox 40 accounts just to destroy others (not calling the act itself jerk-like, as I multi-boxed myself once and found it to be challenging and enthralling gameplay PvE wise). There is an old saying in that the less someone has of something, the more humbled the become. The more someone has, the more they want it. Free games may be easily accessible to younger audiences, but honestly I'm pretty sure we all know an abundant amount of older people who don't act as such in games. I'm pretty sure we all met very mature teenagers who act fairly mature as well.
I believe the main point is personal want, as hinted in the above. Some people are just tired of the whole cash shop thing, while others revel in the ability to play for free and to support the game at their own leisure. There will be abusers on both sides and in different ways. Any reasons beyond that are pretty much personal taste or just guesses based on plausible cause and effect. How evident it may be depends on the type of game in a lot of ways. In addition, the age of a game might sink a community as the veterancy effect is known and people are less welcoming of others who may slow down their efficiency in their race to get the best of the best since they are able to do so solo and without the help of others since said "help" can be drawn from an infinite pool of strangers. Though again it will also depend on the type of game, as FFXIV veterans have been very welcoming to new players and there were even mentor programs set up for the Balmung server whereby items, gil and help are given to new players (with 99% of these people playing the game when it was free to play, and staying to do so when it switch to P2P since most didn't try the game after it's initial reviews once it went P2P).
If a game itself is somewhat shallow and it goes F2P, it's likely not to have a great crowd. If one that is masterfully crafted and encourages hard game play and efficient team work, then it will probably have a good bunch of people. Though I think a lot of people would prefer B2P over F2P just because of that "possibility" that it will in fact bring about at least a barrier of some sort to what some may call "rift raft". But at the same time the success of a game then will depend on it's Brand Name (if it exists) along with it's marketing to get the word out as less people will be willing to shell out the initial cash on an unknown (for instance I believe that Neverwinter made the right choice in going F2P due to what it was as it is just set up to make the most cash from that; some were upset it didn't feel like Neverwinter, but most still tried it since it was free. In Hindsight Defiance probably would've done better as F2P initially as it didn't have a real brand name to sell a box off of and didn't receive all that great of reviews. It got some decent boosts when it became $9.99, but only an increase of some 100% of players).
This may then go back to the whole "is it worth a sub" debate in which most games just aren't. Many that may be will also be hurt by the fact there are so many games out there that offer better deals. Then it moves into the territory of the developer just wanting to make money off of it since the days of subscription are behind us for now (until revived in the future when this fad wears off or a new technology like virtual MMOs are established). Perhaps even when this "gamer entitlement" slows down a bit will we see some new payment models as a whole that aren't just met with the whole "it's new, I hate it" vibe I get from a lot of people.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
After playing FFXI for years and many others since I think what made it's community so good was how it encouraged playing on a single character and the dependency of other players.
Aside from the fact that it cost $1/month per extra character, that wasn't what kept people from doing it. It was the thought of doing everything over again is what rendered any extra characters as storage mules only.
Having to constantly work with others and depend on them brought the best out of people. Almost everyone had manners and were polite as it was almost expected in the first few years. Even if you had a bad day you knew to put on your "work" face when teaming up with others since your reputation was everything. If you didn't have anything nice to say it was best to keep it to yourself.
There should be a small pay wall to keep spammers and the sort out but other than that I don't think different pay systems affect community as much as lowering the desire to make alternate characters / name changes and having to work with others from the start.
F2P is somewhat like Freeview TV; a mixed bag of repeats, rubbish and some gold nuggets. P2P is like a paid for channel or a pay per view film. The extra funding by the viewer gives you the best new shows and films.
The best part of Freeview TV are the programmes/films which were subscription last year on channels you have to pay for. Likewise the best F2P MMO's were once pay to play MMO's.
But in the MMO world P2P/B2P MMO's have dried up, only one has been released this year and we are in August. We won't be getting a fresh batch of former P2P MMO's going F2P next year.
In every MMO I have played the community has been better in P2P MMO's. We may wish that were not so, but it is a fact that I do not think will be easy to change.
I honestly think a lot of people just go on the bandwagon with saying that F2P communities are worse than P2P communities. I have played tons of F2P and P2P games both and the communities have both been relatively the same. Some F2P games did have lousy communities, but guess what? Some P2P games also had lousy communities so it's pretty even on both fronts.
Back then I played f2p asian grind MMO, everyone was botting.
Then LOTRO since p2p the release, what an amazing community. I never had any fight with anyone in game even though I met most people in my MMO "career" there. Then it went to f2p, started produce sucky content and people became....bad eggs.
Now neverewinter, only thing i remember from the game is spam on my screen somebody acquired heavy inferno nightmare - cash shop horse. Like every 15 seconds.
GW2 was the worst one. I had a fight or been offended on DAILY basis in pvp or pve. In dungeons, kicking before last boss. If you manage to be a bit good in pvp, play class the oponent does not like, watch the shitshorm of bad words you have. Whats my reasoning? Kids play the game, it is b2p they buy it like the CoD franchise. Only kids play its pvp because they are not able to see its bad quality, therefore its bad quality of players.
A lot of the P2P games have to go to F2P because to be P2P you need a long term game. Logic says that if your game is about content and you have fast leveling ability then content will end fast and players will not stay. Not to mention the repetitive generic mechanics behind the game play.
My issue with cash shops design games are that they're tasteless money traps. Being unable to get everything in game is a turn off. It kills the spirit of the gaming to me. I rather the items I don't have be something to quest for not clicking a money bag on my screen and ripping out my credit card after. Worst are the in game items that tie to cash shops.
The effect on community seems to be minimal to me because generally the type of games that go F2P or are F2P already are designed to have shallow communities. Not all but somw.
A lot of the P2P games have to go to F2P because to be P2P you need a long term game.
More like "you need shallow grinds and annoying time wasting mechanics to keep people addicted and playing longer".
*Shrugs* I am not in to big level grinds but I can understand the design decisions to have time sinks. You can also push interdependency to push community so its more than a single player game. I am more exploration, citybuilding and warfare type in my mmo desires.
It definitely has an effect on communities. They are all fly by night. I remember playing WoW with the same people for years and I still keep in contact with them despite the fact that we don't play wow together anymore. You won't be getting that type of relationship anymore with these f2p titles. You have to come to the web forums like these ones to build any kind of community.
What if the goods in micro transactions do not affect gameplay but are just cosmetic?
Its still a problem for two reasons -
1. Most of the really cool items tend to go into the cash shop.
I would be ok with a system that had cosmetic cash shop items obtainable in game, provided that it wasn't made intentionally hard to get.
For example, said item is in the cash shop for 10 bucks, but the only way you can get it in game is by grinding a mob that is a rare spawn and the drop rate is like 2%. That kind of stuff blows. If they made it so that it was an event where the drop rates were fairly decent , but put the items on the cash shop after the fact so that in case you missed the item you could purchase it, I'd be ok with it. Tera used to do some stuff like that when I played and it worked fairly well.
2. Cash shop items can be put on the AH/GTN/Trade Broker/Whatever, causing inflation.
The problem with this is that it tends to cause inflation server wide. People who are constantly churning money into in-game currency have much more buying power than those who have to grind money out using in game systems, and thus cause the prices of items across the board to go up. Even though they still get more money for the items they sell, they are still behind the ball on buying big ticket items.
Maybe, if a developer limited their cash shop in a way that took care of both 1 and 2 I'd be interested, aside from that I cant see myself being a big fan of any F2P game.
1. Most of the really cool items tend to go into the cash shop.
Totally agree.
For example, in GW2 everyone wanted flame skins of weapons from a certain, most popular dungeon which was farmed heavily and exclusively. Everybody have those.
Then devs came up with WAY prettier skin (really superb one) but they put it in a rng chest where you need to buy a key from cash shop to open it. Needless to say, some people after their 100th attempt and hundreds or thousands of dollars sinked into it, they did not get a single skin. You should have seen the rage about it. I bet that month they made more money than WoW in 3 months only from the chests, lol.
I want to work for the skin, even if that means I pay every month for a quality game.
Once upon a time everyone in the game was box + sub. Now everything in the game from mounts, capes, helmets, gear, potions, boosters, *GAH* it makes me sad that everything has a cash shop now and money is all that is driving the industry. MMO's went from banning gold and item sellers to selling it themselves. What's that word? Oh yeah integrity. Throw that out the window.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
You are having a party. You have 3 options, open bar where you provide free drinks, BYOB where your friends bring their own, pay bar where you friends buy their own. Maybe a wedding reception would be better I'm not sure.
In my experience, yes I have sponsored all types, more will show up to the open bar and get more rowdy. With BYOB you still will get a large population but not all of them will get out of control rowdy. If you make your guests pay their own way, less will show and even less will get out of control.
Truth is "pay systems effect society" not just mmo communities.
For personal share time I would like to talk about my recent experience in RIFT. My vid card had died so I wasn't playing anything for a couple months. I just got my machine running good again yesterday . I have a full week of nothing next week and thought I'd play some MMOs. Tried Rift, as it is now F2P, and well I found the community worse that what I found in DF:UW. That's right, I said a FFA/Full Loot/PvP community was BETTER. Within 5 minutes of logging into Rift I was inundated with gold spam, and racist/homophobic/insult your momma. That was all I heard. Coupled with "I am on the internetz, I get to say what I want!" Needless to say I wont be playing that one. When I subbed to Rift I delt with almost none of this.
Meh that is my 2 pennies.
I'm off to join the GW2 zerg. Yes it is a zerg, don't believe me? Log into Queensland and watch chat. You will see a constant stream of "where zerg at".
Payment models may have a slight impact in the overall playerbase quality/community, but design, moderation and other factors probably are equally if not more important.
Moderation. Remember moderation?
Too bad it was expensive.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
A lot of the P2P games have to go to F2P because to be P2P you need a long term game.
More like "you need shallow grinds and annoying time wasting mechanics to keep people addicted and playing longer".
Many of those "time wasting" mechanics served a dual purpose, intentional or not that provided many benefits to the players (such as downtime between fights) beyond those that kept people sub'd and playing longer.
By the way, keeping people player longer is a positive in my book, regardless the reasoning behind it, look at the MMO wasteland most titles outside of EVE/WOW most games become.
Your time sink is my game play.
Oh yes, and much of your game play is a waste of my time.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Payment models may have a slight impact in the overall playerbase quality/community, but design, moderation and other factors probably are equally if not more important.
Moderation. Remember moderation?
Too bad it was expensive.
Yay, you would think since F2P is more profitable there would be more moderation.
Community is built on a game's design ,not on it's pay system.If you design a game that has players soloing 90% of the time,that is NOT going to build a community.That creates a game where players ONLY care about other players when they need a dungeon run to get said gear.
Pay systems are merely an indication of the developer's character.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
If it is so-called f2p, I avoid the game because IT IS NOT FREE! F2p is a ding joint. That could also apply to ANY game that has an item shop. If you do not know what a "ding joint" is...look it up.
Payment models may have a slight impact in the overall playerbase quality/community, but design, moderation and other factors probably are equally if not more important.
Moderation. Remember moderation?
Too bad it was expensive.
It is/was? Every broke ass MMORPG back in the early days had tons of moderation, Lineage 1, Shadowbane, DAOC, even Lineage 2 I knew a GM on a first name basis (was a member of my guild)
Then came the idea of MMO's being nothing but money generators and moderation, GM's, all started to decline. FTP seems to take the lack of support to new lows.
Heck, with new globalization models you can hire moderators in places such as Manilla for as little as 5-8 bucks an hour, (probably less, that's what I'm paying for QA resources) so no I reject the argument that they are too expensive, devs just don't want to reduce profits to provide them.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yay, you would think since F2P is more profitable there would be more moderation.
Are you sure that's related to the payment model, and not just the quality of the company (or not) behind the product?
We see "bad community". We guess at what caused it: DamnKids, F2P, Console Crowd, etc. (generally by guessing at the attributes of the first couple of 'brats' we encounter).
At one time, we even liked to blame it all on b.net and 4chan.
But what's the real problem keeps changing from year to year. In the mid 00s, with the arrival of F2P, we got a new magic explanation to shake a tsk tsk finger at.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
so no I reject the argument that they are too expensive, devs just don't want to reduce profits to provide them.
= too expensive. Think like a corporate beancounter, anything spent at all is too much.
And yes, of course I'm just extrapolating backwards to a cause from the observed effects.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
Pay to Win games will break the immersion of any game. I do not agree with any game that sells such items. EQ 1 my favorite game now sells horses and stat items. That should not be in a game.The community needs to have the power to moderate the game they are playing. Cash shops should just focus on cosmetic items and maybe convenience items as well, but that is debatable to what should be allowed and not. A balanced F2P game can work given the right circumstances.
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I think either pay system is fine as long as the game is good and the pay system does not break the game. A good game will have a great community that follows it. A Pay to Win system will break it. Subscription is definitely a way to avoid the balancing act of the F2P market. But I do not think for a moment that the business model makes people immature. I think you will find people you don't like no matter what game you play.
A group/community oriented type microtransaction could be a simple buff.
Instead of the item giving 10% bonus to yourself it would apply to a party, guild, server, etc.
Supremacy goods ==> http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/177190/next_generation_monetization_.php
Thanks for the link, googled that exact article to read it before replying to you. Hmm that is a good thought, but 10% strength/agility/etc would unbalance the game though for pvp, pve. I could see developers abusing users that didn't get the buffs and making the game around having the 10% bonus. 10% bonus exp I think would be okay though.
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Maybe a faction bonus as well. Nothing that could not be earned in the game, but still not given right away would be fine. It would help with guilds trying to get certain items or getting another player up a certain faction.
It's actually quite simple, in the editor, highlight what you want to change color on like this and on the bottom line, last two options to the right, you can change text color or background color to your heart's content.
Hope that helps.
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This is a pretty good thread with some fairly balanced viewpoints. There are cases on both sides and many factors to consider. Even the type of game in question adds a bit to the equation, as the original FFXIV was free to play for well over a year and had an excellent community. Then there's WoW, which is quite the opposite in many ways despite having a Payment model wall. We also have Eve, which encourages PvP whereby there is a lot to lose, and many people are quite mean on their in more ways than just verbally. Next we have duty finders, which may or may not allow people to act different due to being with total strangers they may not see again (though I personally think they do more good than not for the game's numbers in the longterm with the community aspect being debatable as always).
Case and point we could also look at a free game called League of Legends. It boasts a competitive community whereby people tend to get a little involved with their game and their base nature shows more so than just jumping in the game with friends and having fun for free. The one reason I would say FF games have great communities is that there is usually some sort of challenge that brings players together either by efficiency or necessity, in addition to it being a primarily PvE game. If a game is challenging enough and doesn't have a serious competitive attitude in some way, it is likely that the community itself will be the better for it regardless of the payment model. Now that is not to say that PvP is bad, as such things as "Battlegrounds" with friends could also bring about much enjoyment and pump one's adrenaline. Though how many times have we all entered one of those in the past and just see people start arguing and turning on each other once something goes south? It may start with someone not doing what another thinks they're supposed to, but therein lies a potential problem with the competitive spirit in that many people sometimes want to blame others and not themselves when something goes wrong (the anti-community response where team work isn't efficient and there's veterans picking on new players).
Would payment models somewhat alleviate some potential problems as a whole? Maybe. Though it will also do the same for those who are very nice individuals who may have different values or likes as a whole. If one of the nicest people in the world prefers one model over the other, then he/she is locked out of something by personal belief or want. There are a lot of jerks who have money and are willing to pay for 5+ accounts at a time, or even multibox 40 accounts just to destroy others (not calling the act itself jerk-like, as I multi-boxed myself once and found it to be challenging and enthralling gameplay PvE wise). There is an old saying in that the less someone has of something, the more humbled the become. The more someone has, the more they want it. Free games may be easily accessible to younger audiences, but honestly I'm pretty sure we all know an abundant amount of older people who don't act as such in games. I'm pretty sure we all met very mature teenagers who act fairly mature as well.
I believe the main point is personal want, as hinted in the above. Some people are just tired of the whole cash shop thing, while others revel in the ability to play for free and to support the game at their own leisure. There will be abusers on both sides and in different ways. Any reasons beyond that are pretty much personal taste or just guesses based on plausible cause and effect. How evident it may be depends on the type of game in a lot of ways. In addition, the age of a game might sink a community as the veterancy effect is known and people are less welcoming of others who may slow down their efficiency in their race to get the best of the best since they are able to do so solo and without the help of others since said "help" can be drawn from an infinite pool of strangers. Though again it will also depend on the type of game, as FFXIV veterans have been very welcoming to new players and there were even mentor programs set up for the Balmung server whereby items, gil and help are given to new players (with 99% of these people playing the game when it was free to play, and staying to do so when it switch to P2P since most didn't try the game after it's initial reviews once it went P2P).
If a game itself is somewhat shallow and it goes F2P, it's likely not to have a great crowd. If one that is masterfully crafted and encourages hard game play and efficient team work, then it will probably have a good bunch of people. Though I think a lot of people would prefer B2P over F2P just because of that "possibility" that it will in fact bring about at least a barrier of some sort to what some may call "rift raft". But at the same time the success of a game then will depend on it's Brand Name (if it exists) along with it's marketing to get the word out as less people will be willing to shell out the initial cash on an unknown (for instance I believe that Neverwinter made the right choice in going F2P due to what it was as it is just set up to make the most cash from that; some were upset it didn't feel like Neverwinter, but most still tried it since it was free. In Hindsight Defiance probably would've done better as F2P initially as it didn't have a real brand name to sell a box off of and didn't receive all that great of reviews. It got some decent boosts when it became $9.99, but only an increase of some 100% of players).
This may then go back to the whole "is it worth a sub" debate in which most games just aren't. Many that may be will also be hurt by the fact there are so many games out there that offer better deals. Then it moves into the territory of the developer just wanting to make money off of it since the days of subscription are behind us for now (until revived in the future when this fad wears off or a new technology like virtual MMOs are established). Perhaps even when this "gamer entitlement" slows down a bit will we see some new payment models as a whole that aren't just met with the whole "it's new, I hate it" vibe I get from a lot of people.
After playing FFXI for years and many others since I think what made it's community so good was how it encouraged playing on a single character and the dependency of other players.
Aside from the fact that it cost $1/month per extra character, that wasn't what kept people from doing it. It was the thought of doing everything over again is what rendered any extra characters as storage mules only.
Having to constantly work with others and depend on them brought the best out of people. Almost everyone had manners and were polite as it was almost expected in the first few years. Even if you had a bad day you knew to put on your "work" face when teaming up with others since your reputation was everything. If you didn't have anything nice to say it was best to keep it to yourself.
There should be a small pay wall to keep spammers and the sort out but other than that I don't think different pay systems affect community as much as lowering the desire to make alternate characters / name changes and having to work with others from the start.
F2P is somewhat like Freeview TV; a mixed bag of repeats, rubbish and some gold nuggets. P2P is like a paid for channel or a pay per view film. The extra funding by the viewer gives you the best new shows and films.
The best part of Freeview TV are the programmes/films which were subscription last year on channels you have to pay for. Likewise the best F2P MMO's were once pay to play MMO's.
But in the MMO world P2P/B2P MMO's have dried up, only one has been released this year and we are in August. We won't be getting a fresh batch of former P2P MMO's going F2P next year.
In every MMO I have played the community has been better in P2P MMO's. We may wish that were not so, but it is a fact that I do not think will be easy to change.
Smile
Back then I played f2p asian grind MMO, everyone was botting.
Then LOTRO since p2p the release, what an amazing community. I never had any fight with anyone in game even though I met most people in my MMO "career" there. Then it went to f2p, started produce sucky content and people became....bad eggs.
Now neverewinter, only thing i remember from the game is spam on my screen somebody acquired heavy inferno nightmare - cash shop horse. Like every 15 seconds.
GW2 was the worst one. I had a fight or been offended on DAILY basis in pvp or pve. In dungeons, kicking before last boss. If you manage to be a bit good in pvp, play class the oponent does not like, watch the shitshorm of bad words you have. Whats my reasoning? Kids play the game, it is b2p they buy it like the CoD franchise. Only kids play its pvp because they are not able to see its bad quality, therefore its bad quality of players.
Enough said.
A lot of the P2P games have to go to F2P because to be P2P you need a long term game. Logic says that if your game is about content and you have fast leveling ability then content will end fast and players will not stay. Not to mention the repetitive generic mechanics behind the game play.
My issue with cash shops design games are that they're tasteless money traps. Being unable to get everything in game is a turn off. It kills the spirit of the gaming to me. I rather the items I don't have be something to quest for not clicking a money bag on my screen and ripping out my credit card after. Worst are the in game items that tie to cash shops.
The effect on community seems to be minimal to me because generally the type of games that go F2P or are F2P already are designed to have shallow communities. Not all but somw.
*Shrugs* I am not in to big level grinds but I can understand the design decisions to have time sinks. You can also push interdependency to push community so its more than a single player game. I am more exploration, citybuilding and warfare type in my mmo desires.
Its still a problem for two reasons -
1. Most of the really cool items tend to go into the cash shop.
I would be ok with a system that had cosmetic cash shop items obtainable in game, provided that it wasn't made intentionally hard to get.For example, said item is in the cash shop for 10 bucks, but the only way you can get it in game is by grinding a mob that is a rare spawn and the drop rate is like 2%. That kind of stuff blows. If they made it so that it was an event where the drop rates were fairly decent , but put the items on the cash shop after the fact so that in case you missed the item you could purchase it, I'd be ok with it. Tera used to do some stuff like that when I played and it worked fairly well.
2. Cash shop items can be put on the AH/GTN/Trade Broker/Whatever, causing inflation.
The problem with this is that it tends to cause inflation server wide. People who are constantly churning money into in-game currency have much more buying power than those who have to grind money out using in game systems, and thus cause the prices of items across the board to go up. Even though they still get more money for the items they sell, they are still behind the ball on buying big ticket items.
Maybe, if a developer limited their cash shop in a way that took care of both 1 and 2 I'd be interested, aside from that I cant see myself being a big fan of any F2P game.
Totally agree.
For example, in GW2 everyone wanted flame skins of weapons from a certain, most popular dungeon which was farmed heavily and exclusively. Everybody have those.
Then devs came up with WAY prettier skin (really superb one) but they put it in a rng chest where you need to buy a key from cash shop to open it. Needless to say, some people after their 100th attempt and hundreds or thousands of dollars sinked into it, they did not get a single skin. You should have seen the rage about it. I bet that month they made more money than WoW in 3 months only from the chests, lol.
I want to work for the skin, even if that means I pay every month for a quality game.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Think of it like this:
You are having a party. You have 3 options, open bar where you provide free drinks, BYOB where your friends bring their own, pay bar where you friends buy their own. Maybe a wedding reception would be better I'm not sure.
In my experience, yes I have sponsored all types, more will show up to the open bar and get more rowdy. With BYOB you still will get a large population but not all of them will get out of control rowdy. If you make your guests pay their own way, less will show and even less will get out of control.
Truth is "pay systems effect society" not just mmo communities.
For personal share time I would like to talk about my recent experience in RIFT. My vid card had died so I wasn't playing anything for a couple months. I just got my machine running good again yesterday
. I have a full week of nothing next week and thought I'd play some MMOs. Tried Rift, as it is now F2P, and well I found the community worse that what I found in DF:UW. That's right, I said a FFA/Full Loot/PvP community was BETTER. Within 5 minutes of logging into Rift I was inundated with gold spam, and racist/homophobic/insult your momma. That was all I heard. Coupled with "I am on the internetz, I get to say what I want!" Needless to say I wont be playing that one. When I subbed to Rift I delt with almost none of this.
Meh that is my 2 pennies.
I'm off to join the GW2 zerg. Yes it is a zerg, don't believe me? Log into Queensland and watch chat. You will see a constant stream of "where zerg at".
Moderation. Remember moderation?
Too bad it was expensive.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Many of those "time wasting" mechanics served a dual purpose, intentional or not that provided many benefits to the players (such as downtime between fights) beyond those that kept people sub'd and playing longer.
By the way, keeping people player longer is a positive in my book, regardless the reasoning behind it, look at the MMO wasteland most titles outside of EVE/WOW most games become.
Your time sink is my game play.
Oh yes, and much of your game play is a waste of my time.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yay, you would think since F2P is more profitable there would be more moderation.
Community is built on a game's design ,not on it's pay system.If you design a game that has players soloing 90% of the time,that is NOT going to build a community.That creates a game where players ONLY care about other players when they need a dungeon run to get said gear.
Pay systems are merely an indication of the developer's character.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
If it is so-called f2p, I avoid the game because IT IS NOT FREE! F2p is a ding joint. That could also apply to ANY game that has an item shop. If you do not know what a "ding joint" is...look it up.
Let's party like it is 1863!
It is/was? Every broke ass MMORPG back in the early days had tons of moderation, Lineage 1, Shadowbane, DAOC, even Lineage 2 I knew a GM on a first name basis (was a member of my guild)
Then came the idea of MMO's being nothing but money generators and moderation, GM's, all started to decline. FTP seems to take the lack of support to new lows.
Heck, with new globalization models you can hire moderators in places such as Manilla for as little as 5-8 bucks an hour, (probably less, that's what I'm paying for QA resources) so no I reject the argument that they are too expensive, devs just don't want to reduce profits to provide them.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Are you sure that's related to the payment model, and not just the quality of the company (or not) behind the product?
We see "bad community". We guess at what caused it: DamnKids, F2P, Console Crowd, etc. (generally by guessing at the attributes of the first couple of 'brats' we encounter).
At one time, we even liked to blame it all on b.net and 4chan.
But what's the real problem keeps changing from year to year. In the mid 00s, with the arrival of F2P, we got a new magic explanation to shake a tsk tsk finger at.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
= too expensive. Think like a corporate beancounter, anything spent at all is too much.
And yes, of course I'm just extrapolating backwards to a cause from the observed effects.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.