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Can P2P survive in the modern mmorpg genre?

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  • ReaperUkReaperUk Member UncommonPosts: 760
    Originally posted by Mothanos

    Only the games that are worth a sub can survive all the other trash goes free to play.
    Realy simple answer realy.

    You're ignoring the fact that the overwhelming majority of them only survive by switching to B2P or F2P once the subs drop off after the first few months.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    Once again B2P is not F2P, if you have to pay for a "box" how can it be called a F2P title? It is the funding buying the box brings that gives you a better product.

    Let's just call the non-sub-only games.

     

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,985
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by eric_w66

     

    I feel the same way about my phone service! And my cable service! And all the restaurants I eat at! How dare they charge me again and again! I already bought their product once!

    Because you have no choice, unlike in MMOs.

    In MMOs, there are plenty of free fun alternatives. So no, i can't find a free phone service, but i can find a good free MMO. Hence, i am paying for my phone service, but not for MMOs.

    Very logical.

    It is all about competition and alternatives.

    So you get all your food from food banks, right? That's a pretty decent alternative to paying for your food, not to mention fun for the whole family, so it would only be logical that you do. But yeah, I hear you on the whole phone service deal. Hard to get that for free.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by eric_w66

     

    I feel the same way about my phone service! And my cable service! And all the restaurants I eat at! How dare they charge me again and again! I already bought their product once!

    Because you have no choice, unlike in MMOs.

    In MMOs, there are plenty of free fun alternatives. So no, i can't find a free phone service, but i can find a good free MMO. Hence, i am paying for my phone service, but not for MMOs.

    Very logical.

    It is all about competition and alternatives.

    So you get all your food from food banks, right? That's a pretty decent alternative to paying for your food, not to mention fun for the whole family, so it would only be logical that you do. But yeah, I hear you on the whole phone service deal. Hard to get that for free.

    You don't get it, do you?

    Fancy restaurant provides much better experience than cheap food. So i go to fancy restaurants.

    F2P MMOs provides same (or even more) amount of fun (for me) than p2p MMOs.

    See the difference?

  • GabiruGabiru Member UncommonPosts: 63
    Originally posted by SamuraiXIV
    I refuse to play free to crap games. Pay to play or no play at all!!!

    +1

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Member UncommonPosts: 2,077
    Originally posted by eric_w66

    BUY THIS GAME, THEN KEEP PAYING TO BE ABLE TO PLAY IT!

    The MMO industry has gotten away with highway robbery for years!

    I feel the same way about my phone service! And my cable service! And all the restaurants I eat at! How dare they charge me again and again! I already bought their product once!

     

    That's the sum of it.

     

    Be honest, do folks want to play with a guy that plays because it's free, or because he likes the game and plays it for that reason?

     

    I don't want to be in a raid if the player is only playing because it's free. Can't rely on him being there next month, before he chases another "freebie" game. He has no commitment other than money.

  • killion81killion81 Member UncommonPosts: 995
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by eric_w66

     

    I feel the same way about my phone service! And my cable service! And all the restaurants I eat at! How dare they charge me again and again! I already bought their product once!

    Because you have no choice, unlike in MMOs.

    In MMOs, there are plenty of free fun alternatives. So no, i can't find a free phone service, but i can find a good free MMO. Hence, i am paying for my phone service, but not for MMOs.

    Very logical.

    It is all about competition and alternatives.

    So you get all your food from food banks, right? That's a pretty decent alternative to paying for your food, not to mention fun for the whole family, so it would only be logical that you do. But yeah, I hear you on the whole phone service deal. Hard to get that for free.

    You don't get it, do you?

    Fancy restaurant provides much better experience than cheap food. So i go to fancy restaurants.

    F2P MMOs provides same (or even more) amount of fun (for me) than p2p MMOs.

    See the difference?

     

    I believe that a lot of people find the constant reminders or push to spend money in F2P (or B2P) games a fun detractor.  A P2P game does not provide the same experience and a F2P or B2P game.  Your analogy works pretty well though.  A P2P game is like the fancy restaurant, while the F2P game is like the food bank.

     

    That being said, I do believe that people that are easily entertained or that don't find enjoyment in deeper game experiences are better off playing F2P games, assuming they don't care about a level playing field.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by UNATCOII

    Be honest, do folks want to play with a guy that plays because it's free, or because he likes the game and plays it for that reason?

     

    I don't want to be in a raid if the player is only playing because it's free. Can't rely on him being there next month, before he chases another "freebie" game. He has no commitment other than money.

    I don't care either way because i play mostly solo. And if i am in a PUG, i also don't care. The worst is i will just quit the group if they can't perform.

    Personally i play a MMO because i like it and it is free. The two reasons are not mutually exclusive.

    (Note that i say MMO, not games. I am more than happy to pay for SP games.)

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by killion81
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by eric_w66

     

    I feel the same way about my phone service! And my cable service! And all the restaurants I eat at! How dare they charge me again and again! I already bought their product once!

    Because you have no choice, unlike in MMOs.

    In MMOs, there are plenty of free fun alternatives. So no, i can't find a free phone service, but i can find a good free MMO. Hence, i am paying for my phone service, but not for MMOs.

    Very logical.

    It is all about competition and alternatives.

    So you get all your food from food banks, right? That's a pretty decent alternative to paying for your food, not to mention fun for the whole family, so it would only be logical that you do. But yeah, I hear you on the whole phone service deal. Hard to get that for free.

    You don't get it, do you?

    Fancy restaurant provides much better experience than cheap food. So i go to fancy restaurants.

    F2P MMOs provides same (or even more) amount of fun (for me) than p2p MMOs.

    See the difference?

     

    I believe that a lot of people find the constant reminders or push to spend money in F2P (or B2P) games a fun detractor.  A P2P game does not provide the same experience and a F2P or B2P game.  Your analogy works pretty well though.  A P2P game is like the fancy restaurant, while the F2P game is like the food bank.

     

    That being said, I do believe that people that are easily entertained or that don't find enjoyment in deeper game experiences are better off playing F2P games, assuming they don't care about a level playing field.

    IMO the quality between f2p and p2p is pretty much the same.  There are and always have been crap f2p, there are and always have been crap p2p.  There are great f2p, there are great p2p.  Updates are about the same.  Customer Service is about the same.

    It just comes down to 2 questions:

    1.  Do I like the game.

    2.  Am I willing to take their business model. 

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by killion81
     

     

    I believe that a lot of people find the constant reminders or push to spend money in F2P (or B2P) games a fun detractor.  A P2P game does not provide the same experience and a F2P or B2P game.  Your analogy works pretty well though.  A P2P game is like the fancy restaurant, while the F2P game is like the food bank.

     

    That being said, I do believe that people that are easily entertained or that don't find enjoyment in deeper game experiences are better off playing F2P games, assuming they don't care about a level playing field.

    That is not me. I just ignore the cash shop.

    And no .. i find f2p as fun, and sometimes more, than p2p MMOs.

    p2p is not deeper, just more. For example, i find the story missions in marvel heroes, and STO, as much fun as though in WOW. In fact, they are more fun to me, because of the IP. And STO star ship combat is much deeper, and more fun to me, than Eve pve missions.

    Don't tell me you think it is deeper to pay a kill 10 rats quest in a p2p mmo than a f2p mmo.

  • killion81killion81 Member UncommonPosts: 995
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by killion81
     

     

    I believe that a lot of people find the constant reminders or push to spend money in F2P (or B2P) games a fun detractor.  A P2P game does not provide the same experience and a F2P or B2P game.  Your analogy works pretty well though.  A P2P game is like the fancy restaurant, while the F2P game is like the food bank.

     

    That being said, I do believe that people that are easily entertained or that don't find enjoyment in deeper game experiences are better off playing F2P games, assuming they don't care about a level playing field.

    That is not me. I just ignore the cash shop.

    And no .. i find f2p as fun, and sometimes more, than p2p MMOs.

    p2p is not deeper, just more. For example, i find the story missions in marvel heroes, and STO, as much fun as though in WOW. In fact, they are more fun to me, because of the IP. And STO star ship combat is much deeper, and more fun to me, than Eve pve missions.

    Don't tell me you think it is deeper to pay a kill 10 rats quest in a p2p mmo than a f2p mmo.

     

    A game that people dedicate many months, or even years, playing tends to provide a deeper overall experience than game hopping in F2P games.  F2P games tend not to keep players for more than a month or two.  Are you telling me that your month or two in Marvel Heroes rivals the depth of the experience of someone who has played WoW for 2-8 years?  

    A transient population only hurts the experience of players in any game.  P2P games tend to have more stable population bases.  If you are only playing for a single player type experience where other players are completely interchangeable, then a transient population would not matter.  However, if that's the gaming experience you're after, why try and force your agenda on the MMORPG genre rather than just playing multiplayer games that are already designed to provide that type of experience?

  • AkaisAkais Member UncommonPosts: 274

    I think a well done P2P stands an excellent chance in our NA market.

    F2P, and to some extent B2P, promote a transient playerbase. For many, there's little or no incentive to stick with the game long term due to a lack of personal investment. This tends to make their communities unstable or impersonal.

    While that is a clear downside, the upside with F2P is the reduction in complaints as players expectations are automatically low due to the fact that it is free. So long as the shops aren't P2W people tend to complain less and hold on to their money.

    P2P, if done right and the game is well received, has the benefit of a reasonably stable and inviting community that will last for years if well managed and maintained.

    SWTOR and DCUO  are examples of games that didn't quite get the recipe for P2P right.

    EVE and WOW are examples of P2P games that did get it right to varying degrees.

    The downside here is that the environment can become toxic due to any change (or lack of) in the game. Doesn't matter if the change is a buff or a nerf . The level of personal investment is so much higher that an opinion will be voiced and playerbases increased or reduced by it.

    To my thinking, P2P requires a higher lvl of commitment. If you want to play tons of games, then avoid them. If you are looking for a game to call home; that's where to look.

     

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601

    f2p games have just as much longevity as p2p games.  In both there is a group of 50-500k that are around forever.  In both there are a ton (lot more in f2p) that will try it for a month and leave.

    It is a fallacy that f2p does not have the same longevity, the same mechanics to keep players, and even the same drive to keep players.  Players that stay longer are more likely to spend money.  Pretty simple.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by killion81

    A game that people dedicate many months, or even years, playing tends to provide a deeper overall experience than game hopping in F2P games.  F2P games tend not to keep players for more than a month or two.  Are you telling me that your month or two in Marvel Heroes rivals the depth of the experience of someone who has played WoW for 2-8 years?  

    A transient population only hurts the experience of players in any game.  P2P games tend to have more stable population bases.  If you are only playing for a single player type experience where other players are completely interchangeable, then a transient population would not matter.  However, if that's the gaming experience you're after, why try and force your agenda on the MMORPG genre rather than just playing multiplayer games that are already designed to provide that type of experience?

    That is only your opinion and preference. I found play the same game for years boring and not deep at all.

    And yes. I played WOW for 3+ years. First month in Marvel Heroes is way more fun than my third year in WOW. Otherwise, why do you think i am playing MH, and not wow?

    And yes, i am playing for a SP experience. Why do i play MMORPGs? I am glad you ask. I got asked about that a lot, so i have a thread answering that.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/393247/Why-i-play-some-MMOs.html

  • killion81killion81 Member UncommonPosts: 995
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by killion81

    A game that people dedicate many months, or even years, playing tends to provide a deeper overall experience than game hopping in F2P games.  F2P games tend not to keep players for more than a month or two.  Are you telling me that your month or two in Marvel Heroes rivals the depth of the experience of someone who has played WoW for 2-8 years?  

    A transient population only hurts the experience of players in any game.  P2P games tend to have more stable population bases.  If you are only playing for a single player type experience where other players are completely interchangeable, then a transient population would not matter.  However, if that's the gaming experience you're after, why try and force your agenda on the MMORPG genre rather than just playing multiplayer games that are already designed to provide that type of experience?

    That is only your opinion and preference. I found play the same game for years boring and not deep at all.

    And yes. I played WOW for 3+ years. First month in Marvel Heroes is way more fun than my third year in WOW. Otherwise, why do you think i am playing MH, and not wow?

    And yes, i am playing for a SP experience. Why do i play MMORPGs? I am glad you ask. I got asked about that a lot, so i have a thread answering that.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/393247/Why-i-play-some-MMOs.html

     

    Everything you listed in that post can be accomplished in multiplayer games, which is what I recommended over MMORPGs.  The MMORPG genra wasn't initially created to offer what you're looking for, but with all the entitlement flying around the world today, there are groups of people in your exact same position that demand MMORPGs (and just about every other game) be designed specially for them.

    Anyway, it really doesn't matter what I say here, you'll argue in circles throwing away logic when it fits your argument to do so.  Not really interested in that.

    I maintain that F2P are, for the most part, designed to entertain a more simple part of the population and that the majority of the players don't even realize they are spending far more than they should or have difficulty controlling impulse buys.  Along with that, the F2P revenue generation model is far shadier than P2P because it takes advantage of human psychology without clearly delineating what is being received.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by killion81

    Everything you listed in that post can be accomplished in multiplayer games, which is what I recommended over MMORPGs.  The MMORPG genra wasn't initially created to offer what you're looking for, but with all the entitlement flying around the world today, there are groups of people in your exact same position that demand MMORPGs (and just about every other game) be designed specially for them.

    Not everything.

    For example, when i want to play a Star Trek RPG, STO is it. Tell me where i can find a non-MMO MP star trek RPG? Ditto for Marvel Heroes.

    Secondly who says i prefer MMO over MP or SP games? I just stated why i play *some* MMOs because they tickle my fancy in some ways. It is pretty obvious that i don't, or not even close to, playing MMO exclusively. As i said in my post, i just don't discriminate against MMOs.

    And what entitlement? I was very clear. I don't really care if MMO caters to me, and i don't want them to change. But if MMO devs bend over backwards, catering to my taste, and try to lure me to play their game, i don't see any reason to refuse either.

    And if MMO goes back to the old ways, i am out of here. There are plenty of better entertainment for me.

     

  • SamuraiXIVSamuraiXIV Member Posts: 354
    The question should be are free to play going to survive. Also there are no free to play games cause if you play for long period of time the so called free to play you are forced to use more money then a subscription game. Real name should be scam mmos as they scam people to believe its free but it's not. Scam mmos also use fake advertisement to get as many as they can to play their crappy games.

    "mmorpg.com forum admins are all TROLLS and losers in real life"
    My opinion

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by SamuraiXIV
    The question should be are free to play going to survive. Also there are no free to play games cause if you play for long period of time the so called free to play you are forced to use more money then a subscription game. Real name should be scam mmos as they scam people to believe its free but it's not. Scam mmos also use fake advertisement to get as many as they can to play their crappy games.

    I don't play for long periods of time. There is no need. There are so many of them.

    Plus, it is more fun (to me) to have more variety in gaming experiences. So game hopping is great.

  • GrixxittGrixxitt Member UncommonPosts: 545
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by SamuraiXIV
    The question should be are free to play going to survive. Also there are no free to play games cause if you play for long period of time the so called free to play you are forced to use more money then a subscription game. Real name should be scam mmos as they scam people to believe its free but it's not. Scam mmos also use fake advertisement to get as many as they can to play their crappy games.

    I don't play for long periods of time. There is no need. There are so many of them.

    Plus, it is more fun (to me) to have more variety in gaming experiences. So game hopping is great.

    Then why do you mention the same two games day in and day out?

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

    -The MMO Forum Community

  • R1zlaR1zla Member Posts: 25

    If you like a game enough, you will pay to play it. If a game fails it is not to do with the fact that its P2P, its because its not good enough to keep peoples interest, regardless of payment model. If i like a game i want to play it. I dont dislike a game but think hell ill play it anyway as its F2P. Either i like the game, or i dont. That alone determines if i play it.

    A large portion of us WANT a P2P game. Everyone is on equal footing. With any other model they will have a form of cash shop or real life cash transactions of some kind. Now everybody is no longer on equal footing. Advantages come to those with most money.

    Yes, a P2P game can easily survive today, if its good enough to keep ppl interested. If not then it will die slowly, but that has nothing to do with it being P2P

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Grixxitt
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by SamuraiXIV
    The question should be are free to play going to survive. Also there are no free to play games cause if you play for long period of time the so called free to play you are forced to use more money then a subscription game. Real name should be scam mmos as they scam people to believe its free but it's not. Scam mmos also use fake advertisement to get as many as they can to play their crappy games.

    I don't play for long periods of time. There is no need. There are so many of them.

    Plus, it is more fun (to me) to have more variety in gaming experiences. So game hopping is great.

    Then why do you mention the same two games day in and day out?

    You understand the concept of examples, so i don't have to list everything under the sun, do you?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by R1zla

    If you like a game enough, you will pay to play it.

    Not if it is F2P.

  • doodphacedoodphace Member UncommonPosts: 1,858

    If by "modern MMO market", you mean released with features missing or launching with barly anything to do at endgame, then the answer is no.

    If its released with features MMO players have been used to having since the early 2000s (such as combat logs, working game engine, /roll commands), and there are ample things to do at endgame at launch, then I firmly beleave the answer is yes.

  • LeGrosGamerLeGrosGamer Member UncommonPosts: 223
    Originally posted by Gwendal

       MMO's these days are very much a different breed than the ones released in the era of Everquest, EvE, and WoW. Back in 2004 releasing a mmo with attached monthly fees was the norm, and quite a few games became wildly successful because of it (both financially and garnering the respect of customers). The MMO scene currently is a very different beast...

       Before I rag on upcoming p2p mmo's, lets take a look at the currently successes. First you have WoW the grandfather of the modern mmo, and probably the last great p2p mmo as well. WoW continues to be a p2p power mainly through Blizzards groundwork laid almost 10 years ago but also because it was the first to bring the mmo genre to the masses. Another continual success for the p2p mmo's is EvE online which has achieved a continuous growth of player subs for over 10 years. CCP managed this, in my opinion, by providing the players an ever change and evolving universe that puts your sub money to good use.

       Now lets take a look at what the upcoming p2p mmo wildstar has to go up against. First you have the B2P juggernaut GW2. Whether you like ANet's style of mmo's or not you have to commend them for producing a game that only requires one purchase to play.  ANet has been providing content updates that have far out striped or equaled what you usually get in a P2P mmo (for your 15$) all for free.

       This brings me to my main point, how can any new p2p mmo possibly come up with a reasonable and defensible answer to why they need a monthly stipend from you, in addition to the base game cost? Now I will digress for a second to say that the only P2P mmo I have encountered that made me feel as if my monthly fee was warranted, was EvE online (mainly because your monthly fee went to server architecture that actually needed maintenance and free expansions). I for one see no way a new P2P mmo can justify the need for having a large $15/month fee, unless they produce content on the scale and size of GW2's or they provide expansion style content packs for free like EvE. Long gone are the myths around needing this $15 for server upkeep and costs (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=av26nr&s=6).

       In conclusion I will be hoping for more innovative and risk taking p2p mmo's in the future, as they are my preferred style of mmo, sadly I do not see any upcoming releases that take into account my worries above but who knows what the future holds.

        

    Lol, it was a good read and laugh, now since when did F2P titles become "modern"?      It's also funny how if you combine every F2P MMORPG on the market with the exception of Maple Story, that the combined numbers don't even come close to the current number of subs of WoW.  Please, it's a nice shiny troll thread, but no matter how flashy and shiny you type, it's still a troll thread.  Sorry if you can't afford 10-15$ a month for awesome gaming!    Maple Story is the only MMO which is side scroll and 2D that is generating more cash and way more playerbase then 3D F2P titles like Age of Wushu , RO2 , etc. So please take your "modern" argument somewhere else, it's invalid here.

  • eric_w66eric_w66 Member UncommonPosts: 1,006
    Originally posted by Muntz
    Originally posted by eric_w66

    BUY THIS GAME, THEN KEEP PAYING TO BE ABLE TO PLAY IT!

    The MMO industry has gotten away with highway robbery for years!

    I feel the same way about my phone service! And my cable service! And all the restaurants I eat at! How dare they charge me again and again! I already bought their product once!

    A restaurant is a bad example it's not a service. You view an MMO as a service and that is fine. I know you don't watch TV for free because that is paid for by someone else money and you wouldn't freeload like that. I bet you would never use free WiFi or at least you put a $20 in the tip jar if you do so you feel like your paying for it. 

    A restaurant is a fine example. They are providing a service to me. Only real difference is I don't sign up to eat at any given restaurant (outside of dorm cafeterias in my college days). I pay for my own TV service. I don't use free WiFi (don't have any devices that do, I despise "smart" phones/tablets/etc).

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