Why do f2p players keep bringing up WoW as some sort of proof that the p2p mmos are dying out?
Not a F2P player myself, but you have a point. They should be bringing up just about EVERY OTHER P2P GAME SINCE. WoW is the exception, not the rule. Why do non-F2P players keep forgetting that?
If a company is dumb enough to use MMORPG hype meter to measure people's reception of their game then they deserve to loose every single cent that they have invested into the game. No - nothing will change payment model.
People really need to stop assuming that clearly they have a better understanding how how MMO sales, marketing and subscriptions work than people who do it for a living and actually have statistical data to back up their choices. I assure you they didn't arrive to lets use subscription model by throwing darts at a wall or by having "how to milk people before we fuck them" meeting.
Believe it or not you can do studies that will cover a lot of different factors and those are the ones used to determine the model. Vocal people are almost always a minority - so listening to hype meters which represents to the extreme of that vocal minority makes no sense.
You clung to one thing the OP stated because its the only way you could have formed that powerless consumer mentality you have.
The games facebook and official forums, not to mention NCSofts are filled with complaints and history has already shown that consumers do have the power to change things...TESO is FUBAR right now because they went from trying to make a DaoC skinned TES MMO to trying to make a TES multiplayer game with a mad dash to try to distance themselves from the term MMORPG.
When you are missing your target audience, you better damn well be listening early and MMO game makers today have been learning the hard way that Subscriptions are a dieing breed...the only ones planning on releasing with a sub are those looking for a cash grab before going F2P because they know they may just grab enough suckers to make their investment back before doing it.
None in the west have learned how to make the money they do in the east. Too focused on the past fleecing methods.
Thanks for personal insult. That said - I have developed that perception because I get to see how those types of decisions are made every single day at my job. There is more to feedback than forums, facebook, twitter, etc.
I do agree that people have a power to change the final product. That has been demonstrated many times throughout history that said you have to be very careful when you listen to people because like I mentioned before most vocal ones are not always the majority of your customers.
Also even the most vocal ones behave very differently in public (forum) setting than in a more of a controlled experiment setting. People can change the game - that is true. That said it would take a lot more than a hype meter on a third party website and a bunch of angry kids on forums/facebook to make that happen. All of that can be a circumstantial evidence that can prompt a larger community study that can make any actual conclusions about what people think but that is where it stops.
Beyond that I know couple folks in Carbine and they are all very smart people and I have no doubt that when they released this information they were prepared for a certain amount of negative backlash. Given that there has been no response from the official PR team it is probably well within what they expected.
Why do f2p players keep bringing up WoW as some sort of proof that the p2p mmos are dying out?
Not a F2P player myself, but you have a point. They should be bringing up just about EVERY OTHER P2P GAME SINCE. WoW is the exception, not the rule. Why do non-F2P players keep forgetting that?
Thats because p2p players have rejected mediocre WoW clones so hopefully the devs have learned their lessons.
The sub doesn't surprise me as they are focusing on endgame pvp and raiding rather than lvling progression. Yes those hoping for a free ride are disappointed, but there is also FFXIV that is a sub, and that for some of us is a problem, as we where planning on that being our one sub mmo.
Also for me EQN has stolen a lot of Wildstar's thunder, and there is also Archeage and ESO to distract us. The days of committing to a single mmo and therefore getting the most out of a sub are over.
This is a good point. The people who want to point to WoW as the P2P god also tend to forget that for YEARS it was the only game in town of that level of quality; that's how the subs got so high. As soon as decent MMOs started releasing, it slowly lost what, 4 million players?
Point is, the text in yellow is true. No ONE sub game is going to gather up all of the ex WoW players and especially not the current ones (Wildstar probably has the best chance because its art style, end-game, and personality are somewhat similar). The pool of MMO players left that aren't F2P'ers is not big enough for any one MMO to reach WoW numbers when split between so many quality titles, regardless of their payment model. It's just not going to happen. Even FFXIV, which seems really popular around here, will likely have a dedicated fanbase and outside of that no one will know it exists.
Why do f2p players keep bringing up WoW as some sort of proof that the p2p mmos are dying out?
Not a F2P player myself, but you have a point. They should be bringing up just about EVERY OTHER P2P GAME SINCE. WoW is the exception, not the rule. Why do non-F2P players keep forgetting that?
Thats because p2p players have rejected mediocre WoW clones so hopefully the devs have learned their lessons.
Maybe. Though that brings to mind TSW. While I am certainly no fan of the game, it seemed very different from WoW and got nuked off the P2P scene very quickly. Was it too different?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It seems completely illogical that this would be their plan, considering the bleeding of subscribers WoW is experiencing, and the success of games that have gone to a hybrid model, like TERA, SWTOR, Lord of the Rings Online, and Rift.
By all accounts and threads on this site SWTOR is a miserable failure but here to advance an argument it is deemed a success. I must applaud you Sir.
People feel the need to not financially support a game I guess. Pay to play makes me want to play it because I know the community will be somewhat decent.
"If at first you don't succeed, excessive force is probably the answer."
I would not have considered playing this game when it was predicted to be a F2P game. After they announced the subscription model, I am curious about this game and I will likely give it a try. I firmly believe they should ignore the hype meter on this site, as it was largely driven by the make-everything-F2P leechers who don't want to pay for others' hard work.
Why do f2p players keep bringing up WoW as some sort of proof that the p2p mmos are dying out?
Not a F2P player myself, but you have a point. They should be bringing up just about EVERY OTHER P2P GAME SINCE. WoW is the exception, not the rule. Why do non-F2P players keep forgetting that?
Thats because p2p players have rejected mediocre WoW clones so hopefully the devs have learned their lessons.
Maybe. Though that brings to mind TSW. While I am certainly no fan of the game, it seemed very different from WoW and got nuked off the P2P scene very quickly. Was it too different?
TSW was horrible imho,, even if it was a f2p game at the start i would think it would still be terrible by f2p standards
f2p players with no cash are usefull to make the game interesting for paying customers.
Yes, that is true but they still need to have 20% or more paying customers or the development price and the running cost will not be covered.
Leeching players also have a tendency to not play very long.
I say: Go for it with P2P as long as they have no micro-transactions. It might work or not be the more alternative we get in payment models the better it is and there are frankly still plenty of people who prefer P2P to avoid the itemshop.
It might not work of course but if the game is good enough people will pay full price.
It seems completely illogical that this would be their plan, considering the bleeding of subscribers WoW is experiencing, and the success of games that have gone to a hybrid model, like TERA, SWTOR, Lord of the Rings Online, and Rift.
By all accounts and threads on this site SWTOR is a miserable failure but here to advance an argument it is deemed a success. I must applaud you Sir.
Sadly on this site... any mmo with 500k subs is considered a failed MMO..
It seems completely illogical that this would be their plan, considering the bleeding of subscribers WoW is experiencing, and the success of games that have gone to a hybrid model, like TERA, SWTOR, Lord of the Rings Online, and Rift.
By all accounts and threads on this site SWTOR is a miserable failure but here to advance an argument it is deemed a success. I must applaud you Sir.
Sadly on this site... any mmo with 500k subs is considered a failed MMO..
If SWTOR really had 500K "subs" then it might make sense to bring it into the conversation.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I m going to play this game but I really wanted it to be f2p (gw2 model), unlike many of you I believe that if a game has high populations is much more fun and I dont believe that p2p will make the community better. A dead p2p game will have great community, a dead f2p game will have great community also. The size of the community is what makes it good or bad, poppular games with big communitys attract kids like wow or lol and games with small communitys are only been played by experienced and mature players. Thats how things work thats how things always worked in mmo communitys, there is no chance a game will have big player base these days and will not attract kids.
Some of you will say that you just need a stable community like eq or eve and you will have enough player base and mature community, but as I said in my opinion the higher the player base the better the game gets, some aspects of the mmorpgs get better and better when the player base is growing.
While there has been some support from the MMO community when it was announced that WildStar would be a full-purchase and subscription-based game, there has been a rather staggering negative response as well. Their facebook page was full of irritated fans and prospective players ditching their plans to play the game, and on this website the game dropped from the top 5 anticipated, falling out of the top 10.
My question is, does anyone think they will reconsider this decision while they still have time, and was the timing of the announcement perhaps a way for them to "test the waters" to see if players would accept their plans?
It seems completely illogical that this would be their plan, considering the bleeding of subscribers WoW is experiencing, and the success of games that have gone to a hybrid model, like TERA, SWTOR, Lord of the Rings Online, and Rift.
Or, are they simply trying to milk as much money out of the die-hard fans as possible, then pull a "switcheroo" after 6 months and move the game to a hybrid model after getting full purchase price and subscriptions out of the dedicated few?
You are confused... the payment model is fine, if the game deserves it.. that is why WoW is losing subs.. the game is going downhill. Tera was terrible, no one wanted a grindfest with terrible combat so it dies fast. SWTOR died because no one wanted WoW in space and it lost replay value because of the stories.. unsure on that part but all my guildies who were so keen on SWTOR didnt stay long and that was one of their reasons. LOTRO was always very niche and never the best game.. also their payment model when switched to F2P was odd but very different actually getting it customers but not customers that stayed. Rift lasted a while but in the end failed because holidays do not count as content.. they sort of neglected adding enough REAL content and just kept adding new holidays with mounts to farm.
Those bitching about the fact that Wildstar will be priced AS USUAL for games and be the old payment method that has worked for a long time for GOOD AAA MMO's are just silly.. they forget how badly Neverwinter, Runes of Magic (and hell lets add SWOTR to that list), ect bleed you dry because you cannot function well without paying MORE than 15 bucks a month.
I am SOOOOO happy that they are not going F2P or even B2P(I was all in favor of GW2 but the chests without keys got to be VERY annoying.. id have paid 15 bucks a month to be rid of just that despite the fact that GW2 offered little replay value.. but it was worth the price IMO even as a play once through game). 15 bucks a month wont keep out the baddies or the kiddies as ppl like to say but it will damn sure make the team work to keep me in game.. something WoW has let slip in their greed last two expansions. I now see the merit in paying for a good game slowly but surely(like the turtle) and enjoying the ride instead of needing to pay out 40 bucks a month to an in game shop to be slightly competetive or having to shell out money for keys to empty out the idiotic chests from my inventory.
Like p2p so that certainly doesn't put me off wildstar, but after playing ff14 and wildstar, there is only room for one sub and that isn't wildstar plus the fact wildstar isn't now releasing until 2014 means that TESO and possibly EQN will be out around the same time so my interest in wildstar has now gone I'm afraid.
Considering that F2P/Cash Shop models have overtaken Subscription models as far as industry revenues are concerned, I'm really surprised that they went subscription. Seems so 90's, doesn't it?
I would have much rather have seen a B2P with a sub option. People who say that F2P players don't pay are in the dark, imo. I've been playing F2P games for a while now and invest in nearly every game that I have played regularly. Only difference is that I don't feel obligated to play like I do with a subscription game. I think that's probably my biggest gripe with a subscription game. You invest all this time and at the end of it, if you don't continue to invest money every month, all your hard work is down the drain, unless you re-sub.
I was interested in this game when I first heard about... I linked the first vids they released etc to my friends and on the social networks I'm on. Then due to personal reasons I am not getting into I lost interest...
For me the fact they are going with a subscription might get me interested again... If they change to F2P that's fine but I will never touch the game as I have a bit too much of a personal reaction to anything that is part of NC Soft and what it will be like without some kind of entry barrier.
I have played MMOs for about 15 years. I play F2P and have played P2P, (TOR and TSW). Those 2 games convinced me never to pay a subscription again. $15/month won't kill me because I work. I do object to paying a sub because :
A) Haven't seen a game that is THAT good to demand a sub.
GW2 is the best MMO I've ever played and the box fee is justified. No Sub.
C) One caveat to having a job and being able to pay a monthly sub is that I must go and work at my job. Between work, family, and having a life, I just don't have the time to play and justify the sub fee.
D) Cash shops, when done well, can be a fun way to customize your character, or even get more out of your limited play time(xp bossters, etc)
E) Anyone who gets mad at the guys who have uber gearz and mounts needs to check themselves. Enjoy your game the way you want to. Let others spend piles of cash on the cash shop. Try to see the cash shop as a way to 'vote' for the game and developers.
D) If you think $15/mo isnt so bad for a sub, why not play F2P then spend $15/mo in the cash shop?
I'm not flaming or trolling. Please keep any responses civil.
Originally posted by Guitarbry Like p2p so that certainly doesn't put me off wildstar, but after playing ff14 and wildstar, there is only room for one sub and that isn't wildstar plus the fact wildstar isn't now releasing until 2014 means that TESO and possibly EQN will be out around the same time so my interest in wildstar has now gone I'm afraid.
ESO is not coming out hat soon >.< and EQN is FAR from being that close.. they might start closed beta around there. I havent played Wildstar but I have played quite a bit of FF14 and im shocked to hear you think its a better game than Wildstar.
I have played MMOs for about 15 years. I play F2P and have played P2P, (TOR and TSW). Those 2 games convinced me never to pay a subscription again. $15/month won't kill me because I work. I do object to paying a sub because :
A) Haven't seen a game that is THAT good to demand a sub.
GW2 is the best MMO I've ever played and the box fee is justified. No Sub.
C) One caveat to having a job and being able to pay a monthly sub is that I must go and work at my job. Between work, family, and having a life, I just don't have the time to play and justify the sub fee.
D) Cash shops, when done well, can be a fun way to customize your character, or even get more out of your limited play time(xp bossters, etc)
E) Anyone who gets mad at the guys who have uber gearz and mounts needs to check themselves. Enjoy your game the way you want to. Let others spend piles of cash on the cash shop. Try to see the cash shop as a way to 'vote' for the game and developers.
D) If you think $15/mo isnt so bad for a sub, why not play F2P then spend $15/mo in the cash shop?
I'm not flaming or trolling. Please keep any responses civil.
wait so your only sub based games have been TOR and TSW?!?!? No wonder you dont believe in them! both are F2P for a reason now and TSW was horrible from the get go... they ruined such a potentially great game with laziness. The only good f2p games out there pretty much require you to fork out more than 15 per month to enjoy yourself otherwise you are underpowered, slower or uglier than everyone else.
Comments
Not a F2P player myself, but you have a point. They should be bringing up just about EVERY OTHER P2P GAME SINCE. WoW is the exception, not the rule. Why do non-F2P players keep forgetting that?
Thanks for personal insult. That said - I have developed that perception because I get to see how those types of decisions are made every single day at my job. There is more to feedback than forums, facebook, twitter, etc.
I do agree that people have a power to change the final product. That has been demonstrated many times throughout history that said you have to be very careful when you listen to people because like I mentioned before most vocal ones are not always the majority of your customers.
Also even the most vocal ones behave very differently in public (forum) setting than in a more of a controlled experiment setting. People can change the game - that is true. That said it would take a lot more than a hype meter on a third party website and a bunch of angry kids on forums/facebook to make that happen. All of that can be a circumstantial evidence that can prompt a larger community study that can make any actual conclusions about what people think but that is where it stops.
Beyond that I know couple folks in Carbine and they are all very smart people and I have no doubt that when they released this information they were prepared for a certain amount of negative backlash. Given that there has been no response from the official PR team it is probably well within what they expected.
Thats because p2p players have rejected mediocre WoW clones so hopefully the devs have learned their lessons.
This is a good point. The people who want to point to WoW as the P2P god also tend to forget that for YEARS it was the only game in town of that level of quality; that's how the subs got so high. As soon as decent MMOs started releasing, it slowly lost what, 4 million players?
Point is, the text in yellow is true. No ONE sub game is going to gather up all of the ex WoW players and especially not the current ones (Wildstar probably has the best chance because its art style, end-game, and personality are somewhat similar). The pool of MMO players left that aren't F2P'ers is not big enough for any one MMO to reach WoW numbers when split between so many quality titles, regardless of their payment model. It's just not going to happen. Even FFXIV, which seems really popular around here, will likely have a dedicated fanbase and outside of that no one will know it exists.
Maybe. Though that brings to mind TSW. While I am certainly no fan of the game, it seemed very different from WoW and got nuked off the P2P scene very quickly. Was it too different?
Ah yeah the fit of rage the f2p only gamers must be in right now.
This game is going to get spam trashed by people too cheap to pay for it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
By all accounts and threads on this site SWTOR is a miserable failure but here to advance an argument it is deemed a success. I must applaud you Sir.
TSW was horrible imho,, even if it was a f2p game at the start i would think it would still be terrible by f2p standards
Yes, that is true but they still need to have 20% or more paying customers or the development price and the running cost will not be covered.
Leeching players also have a tendency to not play very long.
I say: Go for it with P2P as long as they have no micro-transactions. It might work or not be the more alternative we get in payment models the better it is and there are frankly still plenty of people who prefer P2P to avoid the itemshop.
It might not work of course but if the game is good enough people will pay full price.
Sadly on this site... any mmo with 500k subs is considered a failed MMO..
If SWTOR really had 500K "subs" then it might make sense to bring it into the conversation.
But it doesn't.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I m going to play this game but I really wanted it to be f2p (gw2 model), unlike many of you I believe that if a game has high populations is much more fun and I dont believe that p2p will make the community better. A dead p2p game will have great community, a dead f2p game will have great community also. The size of the community is what makes it good or bad, poppular games with big communitys attract kids like wow or lol and games with small communitys are only been played by experienced and mature players. Thats how things work thats how things always worked in mmo communitys, there is no chance a game will have big player base these days and will not attract kids.
Some of you will say that you just need a stable community like eq or eve and you will have enough player base and mature community, but as I said in my opinion the higher the player base the better the game gets, some aspects of the mmorpgs get better and better when the player base is growing.
ololo
No, no they won't.
Yes, I'm sure they will reconsider based on a hype meter voted on by random people on a website.
This site really need to have a face palm emote.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
You are confused... the payment model is fine, if the game deserves it.. that is why WoW is losing subs.. the game is going downhill. Tera was terrible, no one wanted a grindfest with terrible combat so it dies fast. SWTOR died because no one wanted WoW in space and it lost replay value because of the stories.. unsure on that part but all my guildies who were so keen on SWTOR didnt stay long and that was one of their reasons. LOTRO was always very niche and never the best game.. also their payment model when switched to F2P was odd but very different actually getting it customers but not customers that stayed. Rift lasted a while but in the end failed because holidays do not count as content.. they sort of neglected adding enough REAL content and just kept adding new holidays with mounts to farm.
Those bitching about the fact that Wildstar will be priced AS USUAL for games and be the old payment method that has worked for a long time for GOOD AAA MMO's are just silly.. they forget how badly Neverwinter, Runes of Magic (and hell lets add SWOTR to that list), ect bleed you dry because you cannot function well without paying MORE than 15 bucks a month.
I am SOOOOO happy that they are not going F2P or even B2P(I was all in favor of GW2 but the chests without keys got to be VERY annoying.. id have paid 15 bucks a month to be rid of just that despite the fact that GW2 offered little replay value.. but it was worth the price IMO even as a play once through game). 15 bucks a month wont keep out the baddies or the kiddies as ppl like to say but it will damn sure make the team work to keep me in game.. something WoW has let slip in their greed last two expansions. I now see the merit in paying for a good game slowly but surely(like the turtle) and enjoying the ride instead of needing to pay out 40 bucks a month to an in game shop to be slightly competetive or having to shell out money for keys to empty out the idiotic chests from my inventory.
Considering that F2P/Cash Shop models have overtaken Subscription models as far as industry revenues are concerned, I'm really surprised that they went subscription. Seems so 90's, doesn't it?
I would have much rather have seen a B2P with a sub option. People who say that F2P players don't pay are in the dark, imo. I've been playing F2P games for a while now and invest in nearly every game that I have played regularly. Only difference is that I don't feel obligated to play like I do with a subscription game. I think that's probably my biggest gripe with a subscription game. You invest all this time and at the end of it, if you don't continue to invest money every month, all your hard work is down the drain, unless you re-sub.
Crazkanuk
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I was interested in this game when I first heard about... I linked the first vids they released etc to my friends and on the social networks I'm on. Then due to personal reasons I am not getting into I lost interest...
For me the fact they are going with a subscription might get me interested again... If they change to F2P that's fine but I will never touch the game as I have a bit too much of a personal reaction to anything that is part of NC Soft and what it will be like without some kind of entry barrier.
I have played MMOs for about 15 years. I play F2P and have played P2P, (TOR and TSW). Those 2 games convinced me never to pay a subscription again. $15/month won't kill me because I work. I do object to paying a sub because :
A) Haven't seen a game that is THAT good to demand a sub.
C) One caveat to having a job and being able to pay a monthly sub is that I must go and work at my job. Between work, family, and having a life, I just don't have the time to play and justify the sub fee.
D) Cash shops, when done well, can be a fun way to customize your character, or even get more out of your limited play time(xp bossters, etc)
E) Anyone who gets mad at the guys who have uber gearz and mounts needs to check themselves. Enjoy your game the way you want to. Let others spend piles of cash on the cash shop. Try to see the cash shop as a way to 'vote' for the game and developers.
D) If you think $15/mo isnt so bad for a sub, why not play F2P then spend $15/mo in the cash shop?
I'm not flaming or trolling. Please keep any responses civil.
ESO is not coming out hat soon >.< and EQN is FAR from being that close.. they might start closed beta around there. I havent played Wildstar but I have played quite a bit of FF14 and im shocked to hear you think its a better game than Wildstar.
wait so your only sub based games have been TOR and TSW?!?!? No wonder you dont believe in them! both are F2P for a reason now and TSW was horrible from the get go... they ruined such a potentially great game with laziness. The only good f2p games out there pretty much require you to fork out more than 15 per month to enjoy yourself otherwise you are underpowered, slower or uglier than everyone else.