Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.
nope. interesting moment to moment gameplay is inherently interesting no matter how you got there, or whether there was a "journey" or not.
too bad "gamers" don't give a damn about gameplay nowadays. its all about the virtual work ethic.
Yes, I want the experience to be as grueling and agonizing as possible. Twist my words harder.
Its really simple, you work your way up to certain things. Its a virtual world, so there are going to be similarities. The idea that you can just do everything day one is retarded. Builders build small things, work their way up to grand things. Armor crafters build simple armor, work there way up to more ornate. Gaining knowledge and advancing in games is completely irrelevant to sandbox or themepark, its just a way of emulating real life to make something feel rewarding.
It has horizontal progression, you should go watch the panels about it before posting again. Sandboxes give you the options to do what you like to do, it doesn't mean you are able to too do it from day one, you have to progress those areas by playing.
I saw them live, and have watched them multiple times since. I've also played every major sandbox mmo to date, and many minor ones.
Kick rocks kid.
Then you should know that you can't do everything from day one in a sandbox then shouldn't you.
On tiers: While trying to get a handle on the new concepts of EverQuest Next, some folks latched onto the term tiers as a substitute for levels. Georgeson, however, explained that the two are not just interchangeable terms for the same idea. Tier doesn't equate to power level -- it means capability. Higher tiers mean that players have a handle on how the game is played, from how to do combat to how to manipulate their skills to make various builds. It also means that they have a more robust selection of skills, giving them more flexibility to deal with situations. Unlocking tiers is a matter of demonstrating you know what's going on in the game. And moving up tiers is not going to be a laborious process: Georgeson stated, "Unlocking them is a matter of days and weeks, not years."
Levels - indicate how knowledgeable players are in handling their characters in combat, how to use their skills and how to make builds
Levels - come with more skills giving players more flexibility
Levels - now take days not years
Yeah you really came up with a whole new progression system that is nothing at all like levels or just a term substituted for the term levels. Good job guys! Innovative!!
Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.
nope. interesting moment to moment gameplay is inherently interesting no matter how you got there, or whether there was a "journey" or not.
too bad "gamers" don't give a damn about gameplay nowadays. its all about the virtual work ethic.
Yes, I want the experience to be as grueling and agonizing as possible. Twist my words harder.
Its really simple, you work your way up to certain things. Its a virtual world, so there are going to be similarities. The idea that you can just do everything day one is retarded. Builders build small things, work their way up to grand things. Armor crafters build simple armor, work there way up to more ornate. Gaining knowledge and advancing in games is completely irrelevant to sandbox or themepark, its just a way of emulating real life to make something feel rewarding.
It has horizontal progression, you should go watch the panels about it before posting again. Sandboxes give you the options to do what you like to do, it doesn't mean you are able to too do it from day one, you have to progress those areas by playing.
In a real sandbox I would be able to make myself a powerful character through various means. Horizontal progression goes against the entire idea of sandbox.
Horizontal progression says "here's a ceiling you will never rise higher than because then you may be stronger than someone else." That is not a real sandbox.
Horizontal progression is how past sandboxes work, UO had no levels and every one had access to the same skills but some one who been playing that game for years is a lot more powerful then some one logging in the first time. You get can get and craft gear that is better and you have resources to help you survive the tougher monsters in the game, all this is horizontal progression.
Warrior, Paladin, Death Knight, Templar, Swashbuckler (duelist), monk, (the mentioned hammer throw class), Soldier (a less hulk like tank), Mystic Blade. barbarian 9
Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.
nope. interesting moment to moment gameplay is inherently interesting no matter how you got there, or whether there was a "journey" or not.
too bad "gamers" don't give a damn about gameplay nowadays. its all about the virtual work ethic.
Yes, I want the experience to be as grueling and agonizing as possible. Twist my words harder.
Its really simple, you work your way up to certain things. Its a virtual world, so there are going to be similarities. The idea that you can just do everything day one is retarded. Builders build small things, work their way up to grand things. Armor crafters build simple armor, work there way up to more ornate. Gaining knowledge and advancing in games is completely irrelevant to sandbox or themepark, its just a way of emulating real life to make something feel rewarding.
It has horizontal progression, you should go watch the panels about it before posting again. Sandboxes give you the options to do what you like to do, it doesn't mean you are able to too do it from day one, you have to progress those areas by playing.
In a real sandbox I would be able to make myself a powerful character through various means. Horizontal progression goes against the entire idea of sandbox.
Horizontal progression says "here's a ceiling you will never rise higher than because then you may be stronger than someone else." That is not a real sandbox.
Horizontal progression is how past sandboxes work, UO had no levels and every one had access to the same skills but some one who been playing that game for years is a lot more powerful then some one logging in the first time. You get can get and craft gear that is better and you have resources to help you survive the tougher monsters in the game, all this is horizontal progression.
UO didn't really have horizontal progression like we think of it today, lets be honest most people got the primary skills up VERY FAST is UO.... I know I swapped from two handed to one handed and went from 0 to 100 in a week or less. I don't know if they changed it but when I played you had a skill max that you could not go over.
Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.
nope. interesting moment to moment gameplay is inherently interesting no matter how you got there, or whether there was a "journey" or not.
too bad "gamers" don't give a damn about gameplay nowadays. its all about the virtual work ethic.
Yes, I want the experience to be as grueling and agonizing as possible. Twist my words harder.
Its really simple, you work your way up to certain things. Its a virtual world, so there are going to be similarities. The idea that you can just do everything day one is retarded. Builders build small things, work their way up to grand things. Armor crafters build simple armor, work there way up to more ornate. Gaining knowledge and advancing in games is completely irrelevant to sandbox or themepark, its just a way of emulating real life to make something feel rewarding.
It has horizontal progression, you should go watch the panels about it before posting again. Sandboxes give you the options to do what you like to do, it doesn't mean you are able to too do it from day one, you have to progress those areas by playing.
In a real sandbox I would be able to make myself a powerful character through various means. Horizontal progression goes against the entire idea of sandbox.
Horizontal progression says "here's a ceiling you will never rise higher than because then you may be stronger than someone else." That is not a real sandbox.
Horizontal progression is how past sandboxes work, UO had no levels and every one had access to the same skills but some one who been playing that game for years is a lot more powerful then some one logging in the first time. You get can get and craft gear that is better and you have resources to help you survive the tougher monsters in the game, all this is horizontal progression.
Levels are not what makes something vertical progression. Vertical progression is the idea of building your character in power. You start at a low power level and increase through whatever actions to a very powerful character. You progressed in a vertical manner.
Horizontal progression only lets you progress sideways. You aren't going to become all that more powerful, instead you will build things like cosmetic clothing sets, titles, achievements, etc.
Virtually every MMO released has been vertical in nature. GW2 is the only one I really know of that is horizontal. You don't increase in power all that much and instead focus on the fluff things to build out your character.
That is not true, horizontal progression is not vertical and your power can still increase, by making stronger armor, gathering items that help you survive a fight, your weapons will deal more damage, a rare epic sword can still be a lot more powerful then a starting noob weapon.
Vertical progression relies on leveling and scaling power by stats, horizontal progression goes by what you have done in the game and scales mobs to to challenge you by a measurement of tiers.
Maybe EQN should call itself a 3D MOBA in a World Setting.
40 classes with limited skills with combat that you should think "less gw2, more moba" and it sounds more like it's a MOBA set in an persistent world instead of a single match map.
Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.
nope. interesting moment to moment gameplay is inherently interesting no matter how you got there, or whether there was a "journey" or not.
too bad "gamers" don't give a damn about gameplay nowadays. its all about the virtual work ethic.
Yes, I want the experience to be as grueling and agonizing as possible. Twist my words harder.
Its really simple, you work your way up to certain things. Its a virtual world, so there are going to be similarities. The idea that you can just do everything day one is retarded. Builders build small things, work their way up to grand things. Armor crafters build simple armor, work there way up to more ornate. Gaining knowledge and advancing in games is completely irrelevant to sandbox or themepark, its just a way of emulating real life to make something feel rewarding.
It has horizontal progression, you should go watch the panels about it before posting again. Sandboxes give you the options to do what you like to do, it doesn't mean you are able to too do it from day one, you have to progress those areas by playing.
In a real sandbox I would be able to make myself a powerful character through various means. Horizontal progression goes against the entire idea of sandbox.
Horizontal progression says "here's a ceiling you will never rise higher than because then you may be stronger than someone else." That is not a real sandbox.
Horizontal progression is how past sandboxes work, UO had no levels and every one had access to the same skills but some one who been playing that game for years is a lot more powerful then some one logging in the first time. You get can get and craft gear that is better and you have resources to help you survive the tougher monsters in the game, all this is horizontal progression.
Levels are not what makes something vertical progression. Vertical progression is the idea of building your character in power. You start at a low power level and increase through whatever actions to a very powerful character. You progressed in a vertical manner.
Horizontal progression only lets you progress sideways. You aren't going to become all that more powerful, instead you will build things like cosmetic clothing sets, titles, achievements, etc.
Virtually every MMO released has been vertical in nature. GW2 is the only one I really know of that is horizontal. You don't increase in power all that much and instead focus on the fluff things to build out your character.
That is not true, horizontal progression is not vertical and your power can still increase, by making stronger armor, gathering items that help you survive a fight, your weapons will deal more damage, a rare epic sword can still be a lot more powerful then a starting noob weapon.
Vertical progression relies on leveling and scaling power by stats, horizontal progression goes by what you have done in the game and scales mobs to to challenge you by a measurement of tiers.
You both are completely off. Or at least use some terrible examples. Vertical progression means your character becomes strictly more powerful. If you get a better sword, or more hps, that is progressing vertically. Levels are the most obvious example we have seen, but they are not needed for progression to be vertical.
Conversely, horizontal progression is about options more than anything. Gaining the ability to use mage spell instead of warrior abilities is progressing horizontally. Mage spells aren't strictly better than warrior abilities. Especially since you have to replace warrior abilities with the spells.
That being said, chances are if you collect a lot of different classes and abilities, you will be able to pick a skill that is better for particular situations. Your character is powerful partly because of how flexible it becomes. There might be dungeons that require people to switch out abilities to handle the content, for example.
Cosmetic fluff isn't usually considered "progression" at all.
Originally posted by Jagsman32 If it takes 2-weeks for an average gamer (5-10 hours a week of only trying to tier up) I am OK with that. There are 40 classes so that's a lot of tiers. Also, the games focus should be on gameplay and adventure, not grinding levels. Only make epic quests take months, like getting your epic or a mount or building a castle to get a title.
Keep in mind the item mods they mentioned. Will be important to augment all your abilities and make them work well together. Items will change the way classes are built. That will probably be a lot of work.
Originally posted by evilastro Probably because there are 40 classes to learn.
From what was said, I do believe there are 40+ but not all will be available to all characters per factions. IE: The current paladin vs. shadowknight example.
Here this guy lays it out for you and it is exactly what I said. Of course he puts his own bias remarks in since he is against vertical progression but still, he tells you what horizontal progression is from a fan of it.
At about 4 mins in, he uses the example of an expanding skill book. Which I'd say is an overall better example.
To me, considering things like achievements and ladders "progression" is debatable. These things don't actually make you character capable of doing anything different. Whether its getting strictly more powerful, or having a greater variety of skills and abilities. Achievements are just a way for the game to let other people (and yourself) know what you have done in game.
Its all just semantics and all. But I think most people are referring to "character progression," when they ask about the progression in a MMO.
Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.
nope. interesting moment to moment gameplay is inherently interesting no matter how you got there, or whether there was a "journey" or not.
too bad "gamers" don't give a damn about gameplay nowadays. its all about the virtual work ethic.
Yes, I want the experience to be as grueling and agonizing as possible. Twist my words harder.
Its really simple, you work your way up to certain things. Its a virtual world, so there are going to be similarities. The idea that you can just do everything day one is retarded. Builders build small things, work their way up to grand things. Armor crafters build simple armor, work there way up to more ornate. Gaining knowledge and advancing in games is completely irrelevant to sandbox or themepark, its just a way of emulating real life to make something feel rewarding.
It has horizontal progression, you should go watch the panels about it before posting again. Sandboxes give you the options to do what you like to do, it doesn't mean you are able to too do it from day one, you have to progress those areas by playing.
In a real sandbox I would be able to make myself a powerful character through various means. Horizontal progression goes against the entire idea of sandbox.
Horizontal progression says "here's a ceiling you will never rise higher than because then you may be stronger than someone else." That is not a real sandbox.
Horizontal progression is how past sandboxes work, UO had no levels and every one had access to the same skills but some one who been playing that game for years is a lot more powerful then some one logging in the first time. You get can get and craft gear that is better and you have resources to help you survive the tougher monsters in the game, all this is horizontal progression.
Levels are not what makes something vertical progression. Vertical progression is the idea of building your character in power. You start at a low power level and increase through whatever actions to a very powerful character. You progressed in a vertical manner.
Horizontal progression only lets you progress sideways. You aren't going to become all that more powerful, instead you will build things like cosmetic clothing sets, titles, achievements, etc.
Virtually every MMO released has been vertical in nature. GW2 is the only one I really know of that is horizontal. You don't increase in power all that much and instead focus on the fluff things to build out your character.
That is not true, horizontal progression is not vertical and your power can still increase, by making stronger armor, gathering items that help you survive a fight, your weapons will deal more damage, a rare epic sword can still be a lot more powerful then a starting noob weapon.
Vertical progression relies on leveling and scaling power by stats, horizontal progression goes by what you have done in the game and scales mobs to to challenge you by a measurement of tiers.
Here this guy lays it out for you and it is exactly what I said. Of course he puts his own bias remarks in since he is against vertical progression but still, he tells you what horizontal progression is from a fan of it.
Power comes from being able to do things some one else can't do in the game , you can get it horizontally simple by gaining skills the other player lacks and getting more options to deal with a mob.
All it does is give better options by giving you more tools to play in the sandbox and is not the sole purpose of playing a sandbox game. Sandbox is about living in the game world and being apart of what is going in it, it always changes and never stays the same.
Here this guy lays it out for you and it is exactly what I said. Of course he puts his own bias remarks in since he is against vertical progression but still, he tells you what horizontal progression is from a fan of it.
Power comes from being able to do things some one else can't do in the game , you can get it horizontally simple by gaining skills the other player lacks and getting more options to deal with a mob.
All it does is give better options by giving you more tools to play in the sandbox and is not the sole purpose of playing a sandbox game. Sandbox is about living in the game world and being apart of what is going in it, it always changes and never stays the same.
You do realize that GW2 is horizontal progression game right?
Its not a sandbox game, its still a themepark that still relies on devs to give players new content to do. Sandboxes always have content to do because it happens organically as players interact with each other and create content from that interaction, emergent A.I with monsters doing there own things like players do only adds to that style of game play.
Here this guy lays it out for you and it is exactly what I said. Of course he puts his own bias remarks in since he is against vertical progression but still, he tells you what horizontal progression is from a fan of it.
Power comes from being able to do things some one else can't do in the game , you can get it horizontally simple by gaining skills the other player lacks and getting more options to deal with a mob.
All it does is give better options by giving you more tools to play in the sandbox and is not the sole purpose of playing a sandbox game. Sandbox is about living in the game world and being apart of what is going in it, it always changes and never stays the same.
You do realize that GW2 is horizontal progression game right?
Its not a sandbox game, its still a themepark that still relies on devs to give players new content to do. Sandboxes always have content to do because it happens organically as players interact with each other and create content from that interaction, emergent A.I with monsters doing there own things like players do only adds to that style of game play.
Dude, quit talking.
GW2's Server v Server V Server PVP meets your definition of "always having content to do because it happens organically".
Character progression systems don't have much if any correlation with the game being a sandbox or not. In a typical horizontal progression system, you could if you want, reach a certain level, and the stop killing monsters that drop experience to stop leveling. Likewise in the proposed system, you can quit tiering up your classes (I think, or at least max tier them), and quit getting new classes. In both cases the player is presented with a choice, and it doesn't have anything to do with whether the game is a sanbox or not. EVE, is generally considered a sand box, and it's the game that has the most (unlimited, right?) vertical progression.
But in general, just quit talking. We don't need 7 posts by you telling us how we never played a sandbox game, and how we're too narrow minded to grasp the wonder of them. You're just coming off as a self righteous (and in this case, ignorant) prig.
Here this guy lays it out for you and it is exactly what I said. Of course he puts his own bias remarks in since he is against vertical progression but still, he tells you what horizontal progression is from a fan of it.
Power comes from being able to do things some one else can't do in the game , you can get it horizontally simple by gaining skills the other player lacks and getting more options to deal with a mob.
All it does is give better options by giving you more tools to play in the sandbox and is not the sole purpose of playing a sandbox game. Sandbox is about living in the game world and being apart of what is going in it, it always changes and never stays the same.
You do realize that GW2 is horizontal progression game right?
Its not a sandbox game, its still a themepark that still relies on devs to give players new content to do. Sandboxes always have content to do because it happens organically as players interact with each other and create content from that interaction, emergent A.I with monsters doing there own things like players do only adds to that style of game play.
Dude, quit talking.
GW2's Server v Server V Server PVP meets your definition of "always having content to do because it happens organically".
Character progression systems don't have much if any correlation with the game being a sandbox or not. In a typical horizontal progression system, you could if you want, reach a certain level, and the stop killing monsters that drop experience to stop leveling. Likewise in the proposed system, you can quit tiering up your classes (I think, or at least max tier them), and quit getting new classes. In both cases the player is presented with a choice, and it doesn't have anything to do with whether the game is a sanbox or not. EVE, is generally considered a sand box, and it's the game that has the most (unlimited, right?) vertical progression.
But in general, just quit talking. We don't need 7 posts by you telling us how we never played a sandbox game, and how we're too narrow minded to grasp the wonder of them. You're just coming off as a self righteous (and in this case, ignorant) prig.
The fact that people like are calling GW 2 a sandbox shows that they ignorant of what a real sanddbox is. If you don't like what I am saying don't read but you don't tell me what too do either.
why do people want to play a game for days and weeks ? Instead of Long term ? why would you enjoy getting every skill in a few weeks ? then there is no more skills to get after that hahah
people suck these days if you want to know the truth haha it is a lot more fun working hard for a long time to accomplish something then just being handed it in the first weeks or days of playing
I agree. Someone should make a game where you get 1 experience point for each thing you do and it takes 1 × 10^10 to reach level one. The experience reward to reach each level should increase exponentially.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
why do people want to play a game for days and weeks ? Instead of Long term ? why would you enjoy getting every skill in a few weeks ? then there is no more skills to get after that hahah
people suck these days if you want to know the truth haha it is a lot more fun working hard for a long time to accomplish something then just being handed it in the first weeks or days of playing
Well to be honest, if some people put as much effort into real world endeavors as they do into MMOs (or gaming in general), they might actually do great things in this world. Working hard in the real world = good, and should be rewarded.
Working hard and spending countless hours moving pixels around in a game? Not so much.
Unless the game requires that your MIND works hard to succeed in the game; then you do better in the real world.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
I was hoping for a game that I could sink a lot of time into -- building a character (meaningful starting race, distinct classes), making meaningful choices (faction, etc.), having some sort of differentiation between characters.
If everyone can be everything, in a matter of weeks, I'm concerned about the long term enjoyment.
So lets just say it takes your average gamer about 10 days to unlock the four tiers for a class. Right there were talking months of playtime to unlock half of the classes (200 days). This does not include time spent doing other things like crafting, or otherwise "gearing up." Sounds pretty good at far as starting content goes.
Exactly this.
It sounded as though a tier of gear can take days or weeks to collect. Averaged to a week it would take 2-1/2 years just to gear up all the classes, not accounting for the time to actually acquire the classes. The acquisition part may take longer to achieve since it can be based on your actions. You may need to really make up for your old decisions if you want both the Paladin and the Shadowknight class.
Also, as mentioned above, this doesn't account for all of the non-combat activties such as crafting and housing.
What if all I want to play is rogue? What if I don't enjoy playing dress up with cosmetic gear? This is the problem. The game has to first be built on the idea of each player only wanting one class. There has to be enough content to keep those who want to play one class happy for quite awhile. Everything else is extra.
I also want there to be deep progression per class but I see EQN more of a skill based game than a standard vertical class progression system. If you were given a skill based sandbox and all you wanted to do was skill up daggers, stealth, acrobatics and attack you would also be limited in that game because all you wanted to do was play a "Rogue". That's your perogative but it's less of a problem with the game and more a problem of you wanting to play one MMO like another by ignoring a vast progression system already there. Sure, you want to play a Rogue. What about a Rogue that can cast a fireball? The point of class discovery is not just becoming a new class but modifying your current one with new abilities... then gear tweaking for that new array of abilities.
The more I think about it EQN is deeper and more complex than a typical skill based system but that's for another thread.
If by vast progression system you mean homogenized class-collection game, then I might agree. The jury is out on how they are going to entertain gamers who are used to devoting time and effort into the character that they want to play, who instead are offered the option of expanding into areas they aren't interested in. I.e. rogues with fireballs in your example.
Originally posted by tatertoad If by vast progression system you mean homogenized class-collection game, then I might agree. The jury is out on how they are going to entertain gamers who are used to devoting time and effort into the character that they want to play, who instead are offered the option of expanding into areas they aren't interested in. I.e. rogues with fireballs in your example.
Realistically you can modify 1/3 of any class you are playing and there are 40 different classes so calling it homogenized probably isn't accurate. When you consider there may be about 10 variations of the 4 archetypes I'm pretty sure you can build out any type of character you can think of and the process can be very involved and deep. IMO it's a problem with perception on what progression can be since we've gone so long doing it one way.
The ironic thing is in most MMOs you don't get the opporotunuty to really build the character you want to play no matter how much time and effort you want to put in, they allow one path. In EQN it sounds like the more flexibility you want to have in building your class, the more time and effort you need to put into it. In response to an MMO that offers this some now say the problem is that you have to branch out too much to get the full depth. I'll gladly trade one for the other as there are plenty of set class, deep progression MMOs. In fact, SoE has three of them.
You guys that are assuming classes and tiers are tied do realized that even if it takes 15 whole days to unlock all tiers and all one million skills......
Everyone will end up with a cookie-cutter spec. The real question is, how long before that happens?
You guys that are assuming classes and tiers are tied do realized that even if it takes 15 whole days to unlock all tiers and all one million skills......
Everyone will end up with a cookie-cutter spec. The real question is, how long before that happens?
Maybe but there is nothing stopping them from introducting a new class every 8 weeks or so that might alter or counter the cookie cutter specs. Factor in nerfs and buffs and you might have a never ending cycle of class creation.
Those people who played GW1 would know that it was a constant pursuit to unlock skills and that each 'boss' or area might require a different set of skills to overcome it. My hope is that EQNext recaptures some of this magic.
You guys that are assuming classes and tiers are tied do realized that even if it takes 15 whole days to unlock all tiers and all one million skills......
Everyone will end up with a cookie-cutter spec. The real question is, how long before that happens?
Maybe but there is nothing stopping them from introducting a new class every 8 weeks or so that might alter or counter the cookie cutter specs. Factor in nerfs and buffs and you might have a never ending cycle of class creation.
Those people who played GW1 would know that it was a constant pursuit to unlock skills and that each 'boss' or area might require a different set of skills to overcome it. My hope is that EQNext recaptures some of this magic.
Nothing stopping them except that it has never been done before. As to nerfs, yes, that's a sign that cookie-cutters rule. But if you have all the skills and tiers, and levels, and rock formation changer wand from the cash shop in a matter of the first few days, who cares if they nerf a skill or class, just check the forums for the new cookie-cutter.
You guys that are assuming classes and tiers are tied do realized that even if it takes 15 whole days to unlock all tiers and all one million skills......
Everyone will end up with a cookie-cutter spec. The real question is, how long before that happens?
Maybe but there is nothing stopping them from introducting a new class every 8 weeks or so that might alter or counter the cookie cutter specs. Factor in nerfs and buffs and you might have a never ending cycle of class creation.
Those people who played GW1 would know that it was a constant pursuit to unlock skills and that each 'boss' or area might require a different set of skills to overcome it. My hope is that EQNext recaptures some of this magic.
Nothing stopping them except that it has never been done before. As to nerfs, yes, that's a sign that cookie-cutters rule. But if you have all the skills and tiers, and levels, and rock formation changer wand from the cash shop in a matter of the first few days, who cares if they nerf a skill or class, just check the forums for the new cookie-cutter.
SWG didn't really have cookie cuter builds, but back then the goals were different.....if they are going for that pre NGE feeling in this game then I don't think we will see a bunch of cookie cutter builds...and that game had some 38 classes if I recall or some crazy high number like that with a bunch of them getting culled for NGE.
(hell even TSW didn't have A cookie cutter build though it did have a lot of theorizing, which I am fine with....people should be able to compare and contrast how things work...that is going to happen in any game WoW has its elitistjerks and it is as verticle as you can get)
To understand the difference between vertical and horizontal progression, you have to go back to when the term "horizontal progression" was coined: EQ with the advent of AA points.
In EQ, the players had reached maximum level, and the developers did not want to increase the levels, because this would trivialize existing content and would wipe a lot of the work they had done, since people would have out-leveled it by tons (They still upped the cap, and it still happened a few years down, but that is another story). So, to solve this, they added Alternate Advancement points. You were at the level cap, but you could still progress by gaining points, and using those points on skills or attributes that increased your overall abilities, without increasing your level, and making content obsolete. These skills were "tiered", in which, you couldn't open up the next set of skills, without first putting in enough points in the lower skills.
In EQNext, they decided to just do away with the levels (the vertical progression), altogether, and just focus on the "Alternate Advancements". As you play, you will likely get skill points through several different ways: Using EQ2 as an example, you could get straight skill point progression by killing monsters. This is basic, and slowest way to get points. You would get points for discovering a new location, for killing a named monster the first time, completing a non-repeatable quest, first time completing a repeatable quest, learning a new language, doing lore, increasing your faction past certain points, active participate in world events... in short, there are tons of ways to gain points. These points, you then assign to the skills you wish to learn, from whatever class you have opened up. You do not have to use it on the class you are currently playing, btw. Once you have gained sufficient power in this manner, you can take on content that is considered Tier 2. Tier 2 not because you cannot attack it when you are just tier 1, but because now you have enough advantages to survive, through your horizontal progression.
Gear can also be considered horizontal progression. Lets say you are level 90 in Everquest 2. You now wish to join a raid. More likely than not, you will have to gain gear in specific sequences. Begin with quest gear, then upgrade it though dungeon gear, and finally start with the basic raids. Once you have that, you can do some higher level raids, until you have good enough gear to take on the gods themselves. You were level 90 for this whole experience, yet you were still "progressing". THAT is what horizontal progression means.
GW2 is NOT horizontal progression. It is vertical progression with a beginning (level 1), middle, (level 40) and end (level 80), once you reach level 80, your progression is over. Their world, however, scaled you down to its level, which made it still relevant, but this did not mean you were not done with progression.
EQN is definitely horizontal progression, and the fact that it takes days or weeks to tier up, means that the time from tiering up your first class, to the time you tier up your last class, could be in the scale of years, specially if you factor in the amount of time you will spend FINDING the classes, and finding gear appropriate for your preferred play style.
O, and one last thing: If you JUST want to tier up one "class" and not ever look for, or level others, you will be severely limiting yourself, and even if your initial class is a "tier 5 class", you most likely than not will NOT be able to complete Tier 5 content as effectively as someone who has put in the time and effort to properly load out their class with skills and abilities from other classes.
Comments
Then you should know that you can't do everything from day one in a sandbox then shouldn't you.
Levels - indicate how knowledgeable players are in handling their characters in combat, how to use their skills and how to make builds
Levels - come with more skills giving players more flexibility
Levels - now take days not years
Yeah you really came up with a whole new progression system that is nothing at all like levels or just a term substituted for the term levels. Good job guys! Innovative!!
Horizontal progression is how past sandboxes work, UO had no levels and every one had access to the same skills but some one who been playing that game for years is a lot more powerful then some one logging in the first time. You get can get and craft gear that is better and you have resources to help you survive the tougher monsters in the game, all this is horizontal progression.
35 classes
Warrior, Paladin, Death Knight, Templar, Swashbuckler (duelist), monk, (the mentioned hammer throw class), Soldier (a less hulk like tank), Mystic Blade. barbarian 9
Mage, Necromancer, elementalist (pet class), illusionist, pyromancer, warlock, mystic (magical tank), enchanter. 8
Ninja!, rogue, bard, offensive bard (skald), shadow blade (your teleporting thief), blade dancer (tankish rogue) 6
Priest, dark priest, banisher, inquisitor, holy warden (priest tank), unholy warden (priest tank different weapons and skill) 6
Druid, shape shifter, beast lord, ranger, archer, scout (sneaky ranged)
UO didn't really have horizontal progression like we think of it today, lets be honest most people got the primary skills up VERY FAST is UO.... I know I swapped from two handed to one handed and went from 0 to 100 in a week or less. I don't know if they changed it but when I played you had a skill max that you could not go over.
That is not true, horizontal progression is not vertical and your power can still increase, by making stronger armor, gathering items that help you survive a fight, your weapons will deal more damage, a rare epic sword can still be a lot more powerful then a starting noob weapon.
Vertical progression relies on leveling and scaling power by stats, horizontal progression goes by what you have done in the game and scales mobs to to challenge you by a measurement of tiers.
Maybe EQN should call itself a 3D MOBA in a World Setting.
40 classes with limited skills with combat that you should think "less gw2, more moba" and it sounds more like it's a MOBA set in an persistent world instead of a single match map.
You both are completely off. Or at least use some terrible examples. Vertical progression means your character becomes strictly more powerful. If you get a better sword, or more hps, that is progressing vertically. Levels are the most obvious example we have seen, but they are not needed for progression to be vertical.
Conversely, horizontal progression is about options more than anything. Gaining the ability to use mage spell instead of warrior abilities is progressing horizontally. Mage spells aren't strictly better than warrior abilities. Especially since you have to replace warrior abilities with the spells.
That being said, chances are if you collect a lot of different classes and abilities, you will be able to pick a skill that is better for particular situations. Your character is powerful partly because of how flexible it becomes. There might be dungeons that require people to switch out abilities to handle the content, for example.
Cosmetic fluff isn't usually considered "progression" at all.
At about 4 mins in, he uses the example of an expanding skill book. Which I'd say is an overall better example.
To me, considering things like achievements and ladders "progression" is debatable. These things don't actually make you character capable of doing anything different. Whether its getting strictly more powerful, or having a greater variety of skills and abilities. Achievements are just a way for the game to let other people (and yourself) know what you have done in game.
Its all just semantics and all. But I think most people are referring to "character progression," when they ask about the progression in a MMO.
Power comes from being able to do things some one else can't do in the game , you can get it horizontally simple by gaining skills the other player lacks and getting more options to deal with a mob.
All it does is give better options by giving you more tools to play in the sandbox and is not the sole purpose of playing a sandbox game. Sandbox is about living in the game world and being apart of what is going in it, it always changes and never stays the same.
Its not a sandbox game, its still a themepark that still relies on devs to give players new content to do. Sandboxes always have content to do because it happens organically as players interact with each other and create content from that interaction, emergent A.I with monsters doing there own things like players do only adds to that style of game play.
Dude, quit talking.
GW2's Server v Server V Server PVP meets your definition of "always having content to do because it happens organically".
Character progression systems don't have much if any correlation with the game being a sandbox or not. In a typical horizontal progression system, you could if you want, reach a certain level, and the stop killing monsters that drop experience to stop leveling. Likewise in the proposed system, you can quit tiering up your classes (I think, or at least max tier them), and quit getting new classes. In both cases the player is presented with a choice, and it doesn't have anything to do with whether the game is a sanbox or not. EVE, is generally considered a sand box, and it's the game that has the most (unlimited, right?) vertical progression.
But in general, just quit talking. We don't need 7 posts by you telling us how we never played a sandbox game, and how we're too narrow minded to grasp the wonder of them. You're just coming off as a self righteous (and in this case, ignorant) prig.
The fact that people like are calling GW 2 a sandbox shows that they ignorant of what a real sanddbox is. If you don't like what I am saying don't read but you don't tell me what too do either.
I agree. Someone should make a game where you get 1 experience point for each thing you do and it takes 1 × 10^10 to reach level one. The experience reward to reach each level should increase exponentially.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Unless the game requires that your MIND works hard to succeed in the game; then you do better in the real world.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
I was hoping for a game that I could sink a lot of time into -- building a character (meaningful starting race, distinct classes), making meaningful choices (faction, etc.), having some sort of differentiation between characters.
If everyone can be everything, in a matter of weeks, I'm concerned about the long term enjoyment.
I also want there to be deep progression per class but I see EQN more of a skill based game than a standard vertical class progression system. If you were given a skill based sandbox and all you wanted to do was skill up daggers, stealth, acrobatics and attack you would also be limited in that game because all you wanted to do was play a "Rogue". That's your perogative but it's less of a problem with the game and more a problem of you wanting to play one MMO like another by ignoring a vast progression system already there. Sure, you want to play a Rogue. What about a Rogue that can cast a fireball? The point of class discovery is not just becoming a new class but modifying your current one with new abilities... then gear tweaking for that new array of abilities.
The more I think about it EQN is deeper and more complex than a typical skill based system but that's for another thread.
Realistically you can modify 1/3 of any class you are playing and there are 40 different classes so calling it homogenized probably isn't accurate. When you consider there may be about 10 variations of the 4 archetypes I'm pretty sure you can build out any type of character you can think of and the process can be very involved and deep. IMO it's a problem with perception on what progression can be since we've gone so long doing it one way.
The ironic thing is in most MMOs you don't get the opporotunuty to really build the character you want to play no matter how much time and effort you want to put in, they allow one path. In EQN it sounds like the more flexibility you want to have in building your class, the more time and effort you need to put into it. In response to an MMO that offers this some now say the problem is that you have to branch out too much to get the full depth. I'll gladly trade one for the other as there are plenty of set class, deep progression MMOs. In fact, SoE has three of them.
You guys that are assuming classes and tiers are tied do realized that even if it takes 15 whole days to unlock all tiers and all one million skills......
Everyone will end up with a cookie-cutter spec. The real question is, how long before that happens?
Maybe but there is nothing stopping them from introducting a new class every 8 weeks or so that might alter or counter the cookie cutter specs. Factor in nerfs and buffs and you might have a never ending cycle of class creation.
Those people who played GW1 would know that it was a constant pursuit to unlock skills and that each 'boss' or area might require a different set of skills to overcome it. My hope is that EQNext recaptures some of this magic.
Nothing stopping them except that it has never been done before. As to nerfs, yes, that's a sign that cookie-cutters rule. But if you have all the skills and tiers, and levels, and rock formation changer wand from the cash shop in a matter of the first few days, who cares if they nerf a skill or class, just check the forums for the new cookie-cutter.
SWG didn't really have cookie cuter builds, but back then the goals were different.....if they are going for that pre NGE feeling in this game then I don't think we will see a bunch of cookie cutter builds...and that game had some 38 classes if I recall or some crazy high number like that with a bunch of them getting culled for NGE.
(hell even TSW didn't have A cookie cutter build though it did have a lot of theorizing, which I am fine with....people should be able to compare and contrast how things work...that is going to happen in any game WoW has its elitistjerks and it is as verticle as you can get)
To understand the difference between vertical and horizontal progression, you have to go back to when the term "horizontal progression" was coined: EQ with the advent of AA points.
In EQ, the players had reached maximum level, and the developers did not want to increase the levels, because this would trivialize existing content and would wipe a lot of the work they had done, since people would have out-leveled it by tons (They still upped the cap, and it still happened a few years down, but that is another story). So, to solve this, they added Alternate Advancement points. You were at the level cap, but you could still progress by gaining points, and using those points on skills or attributes that increased your overall abilities, without increasing your level, and making content obsolete. These skills were "tiered", in which, you couldn't open up the next set of skills, without first putting in enough points in the lower skills.
In EQNext, they decided to just do away with the levels (the vertical progression), altogether, and just focus on the "Alternate Advancements". As you play, you will likely get skill points through several different ways: Using EQ2 as an example, you could get straight skill point progression by killing monsters. This is basic, and slowest way to get points. You would get points for discovering a new location, for killing a named monster the first time, completing a non-repeatable quest, first time completing a repeatable quest, learning a new language, doing lore, increasing your faction past certain points, active participate in world events... in short, there are tons of ways to gain points. These points, you then assign to the skills you wish to learn, from whatever class you have opened up. You do not have to use it on the class you are currently playing, btw. Once you have gained sufficient power in this manner, you can take on content that is considered Tier 2. Tier 2 not because you cannot attack it when you are just tier 1, but because now you have enough advantages to survive, through your horizontal progression.
Gear can also be considered horizontal progression. Lets say you are level 90 in Everquest 2. You now wish to join a raid. More likely than not, you will have to gain gear in specific sequences. Begin with quest gear, then upgrade it though dungeon gear, and finally start with the basic raids. Once you have that, you can do some higher level raids, until you have good enough gear to take on the gods themselves. You were level 90 for this whole experience, yet you were still "progressing". THAT is what horizontal progression means.
GW2 is NOT horizontal progression. It is vertical progression with a beginning (level 1), middle, (level 40) and end (level 80), once you reach level 80, your progression is over. Their world, however, scaled you down to its level, which made it still relevant, but this did not mean you were not done with progression.
EQN is definitely horizontal progression, and the fact that it takes days or weeks to tier up, means that the time from tiering up your first class, to the time you tier up your last class, could be in the scale of years, specially if you factor in the amount of time you will spend FINDING the classes, and finding gear appropriate for your preferred play style.
O, and one last thing: If you JUST want to tier up one "class" and not ever look for, or level others, you will be severely limiting yourself, and even if your initial class is a "tier 5 class", you most likely than not will NOT be able to complete Tier 5 content as effectively as someone who has put in the time and effort to properly load out their class with skills and abilities from other classes.