A leveless MMO can work, imo, it's just that we've been so indoctrinated into the "leveling" system, it's hard to break out of the mindset. Levels make it easy to determine relative power, make it easy to gate content, make it easy to deliver relative increases of power, and create a general sense of progression. If you look at it from a developers view, levels make delivering content a lot easier as well.
Honestly, I'm not entirely sure that the general audience could wrap their heads around a leveless system. There would be an easy way for folks to judge their own progress vs. others around them, they also wouldn't be able to gauge whether they were ready to tackle certain types of content. EQNext might just be the testing grounds to see how well a leveless system works that's aiming for a general audience.
Players will always try to develop their own power rating system. WoW gave us gearscore which let the players measure 'levels' after one reached the max level. Before that people were judged on the number and tier of epics they had.
A horizontal progression system is nice but if you limit how powerful the characters can become you risk locking the game into a stasis and people will get bored from the lack of progression.
What I am really asking is that what is keeping those level 80 player around once they reach it.
Why can't the game start at Level 80 and stays there.
Thats is what I am proposing
Nothing. Sooner or later, content ends. You can let them level forever, but it will just be a number (and your power scale with it) without any new interesting stuff.
And games get boring if you play it long enough anyway. There is not need to keep players around forever.
Finish the game and move on.
Tell that to the folks who have played Asheron's Call since 1999. Yes, you reach a max level of 256, but you still earn xps to further advance your character. Considering that AC probably has the best random loot system in any mmo, in my opinion, there is still plenty of reason for elder characters to play and advance their character's relative power.
There's still a number of players who have played WoW, FFXI, EQ1/2, etc, from the release and still play. For them, there is now option to "finish the game and move on", because they still enjoy the game. If a mmo were to have no levels, but still allowed characters to progress, you'd only enable more long term play...which afterall is what developers really want. Lifetime players.
Well obvious some people have more tolerance of the same game. There are people who still play Diablo 2 (TWO, not 3) too.
Most people don't. In fact, F2P MMO .. the retention length is what ... 4 months?
ANd personally i don't expect to spend a life-time in any games, MMO or not. That is just boring to me.
The reason you have levels is because of the way the genre went and it's easier to place content when you have levels. But since MMORPG's went from EQ to WoW as far as parentage for most of the genre it's going to be level based.
All games have levels whether they're announced publically or not. There has to be some means to measure advancement, how to determine who is better at something that someone else, etc. It can be levels, it can be skill levels, it can be lots of different things, but they all exist for the same purpose.
To say that any game on the market has no levels is absurd.
You can have successful mmos without levels, but not without progression.
Very true, and it's disenchanting that had to be spelled out for this crowd.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Mabinogi has an"infinite" level cap and class-less leveling system. It's part of the reason as to why it's my favorite MMORPG of all time. Granted, not exactly the same as having no levels.
Originally posted by Lucioon What I am really asking is that what is keeping those level 80 player around once they reach it.
Content.
Content that is fun to do, be it in massive groups or soloing (yes, soloing). Even these big massive MMOs like WoW, can't get enough players to play at times. Have to have content that is playable 24/7, like right now at 1:45am. My sis couldn't complete the LFR raid just now, because they couldn't find enough healers (again). No healers is a sign the content is too boring to heal; the mechanics too trite; and the time is wasted. Folks can tack on 10000001 levels of progression to that, but if the mechanics are shot, why play?
It's much more than just progression levels, have to have SUPPORTED content at "end-game".
Level Caps have always been the END everyone tries to get to in MMORPG, But what if we replace Levels with Ranks.
Ranks is like Levels but without an official End, and the Higher the rank you are, the more responsibilities you have, therefor you don't have to move up the ranks if you don't want to.
What if , we can also have Hours, days, Months played in game time as our Levels as well.
Different Class Ranks, Veterans , Masters...etc
So you could be Corpal for the whole game, but you are Master Corpal ....etc
PS: Not very good with Military ranks so its just for examples
Qualifications for each rank that suits your playstyle, so when people see you running around they know the kind of player you are.
In Game Responsibilities, Leaders, Raid Leaders, Tanks , Healers, DPS, Scouts....etc Like Field Medic , Heavy .....
Something where you can play for days and months and will never feel like you are at an End of a Game, but instead, you are increasing your skills and being recognized for your role in the MMO.
As long as people are open minded enough to give it a try, it can definitely work.
As long as people are still chasing the same carrot-on-a-stick, skinner-box gameplay model, it won't.
It comes down to the dilemma of complex/interesting game mechanics, vs. accessibility. Many people enjoy easier games, or don't want to think as much about the games they play. Many people want games to provide them with incentives, and are completely against having to create their own. That's the road block preventing more complex games from being made.
Not only would an MMO without levels work, it could very well be a better suited design for an MMO to begin with. Level progression is a system that works great in a finite game. MMOs aren't finite though.
The problem so far has been coming up with another source of motivation for people to play. Progression is easy to understand and highly motivating for a gamer, everyone understands 'bigger numbers'. There are some attempts now, and the reaction to them shows it's not only hard to develop non-progression MMOs, but it's also difficult to get players to unlearn their conditioning and open themselves up to the idea that playing for something else than bigger numbers can still be worthwile.
Originally posted by Novusod EQ-Next is going with no levels design. If it is a success expect to see a lot more games with no levels in the future.
Again no such thing as no level design. Every mmorpg in existence has levels. The only difference is how its portrayed. Whether its a level that goes up and upon which you gain hp/mp/stats like a level 1-80 situation.
Or if its just a skill based level system where the more you use skills the stronger they get, still a level system.(think oblivion/skyrim)
You can have successful mmos without levels, but not without progression.
Very true, and it's disenchanting that had to be spelled out for this crowd.
Not true, there is no such thing as an mmo without levels.
And even when spelled out, some still have trouble. vOv
Sephiroso, when people talk about 'levels' here - or in most MMO discussions you will ever take part in - they are talking about that tiered xp system carried over from PnP games. They are not referring to measures of progression as a whole.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You can have successful mmos without levels, but not without progression.
Very true, and it's disenchanting that had to be spelled out for this crowd.
Not true, there is no such thing as an mmo without levels.
And even when spelled out, some still have trouble. vOv
Sephiroso, when people talk about 'levels' here - or in most MMO discussions you will ever take part in - they are talking about that tiered xp system carried over from PnP games. They are not referring to measures of progression as a whole.
But that is what the word level means as a definition. A measure of progression as a whole. It really honestly does not matter how it is portrayed. There are levels in just about everything, even real life.
You can have successful mmos without levels, but not without progression.
Very true, and it's disenchanting that had to be spelled out for this crowd.
Not true, there is no such thing as an mmo without levels.
I guess I will repeat myself and say that WWII Online has no levels.
Never heard of it is that like call of duty but mmo call of duty? If you give me an mmorpg equivalent to that game and i'll give you an answer.
You said MMO. I gave you an MMO. Now you want to move the goal posts and say RPG? WWII Online is an MMO. No, it is not mmo call of duty. It is an actual WWII simulator/strategy game that has been around since about 2002.
You can have successful mmos without levels, but not without progression.
Very true, and it's disenchanting that had to be spelled out for this crowd.
Not true, there is no such thing as an mmo without levels.
I guess I will repeat myself and say that WWII Online has no levels.
Never heard of it is that like call of duty but mmo call of duty? If you give me an mmorpg equivalent to that game and i'll give you an answer.
You said MMO. I gave you an MMO. Now you want to move the goal posts and say RPG? WWII Online is an MMO. No, it is not mmo call of duty. It is an actual WWII simulator/strategy game that has been around since about 2002.
simulator/strategy game...? doesn't sound like an mmo to me. but you're saying there is 0 progression in that game? everyone is exactly the same and have access to exactly the same planes/tanks/w/e from the start and do not gain access to anything else through the course of play? sounds pretty boring if you ask me. Even call of duty has a level system where you progress.
You can have successful mmos without levels, but not without progression.
Very true, and it's disenchanting that had to be spelled out for this crowd.
Not true, there is no such thing as an mmo without levels.
I guess I will repeat myself and say that WWII Online has no levels.
Never heard of it is that like call of duty but mmo call of duty? If you give me an mmorpg equivalent to that game and i'll give you an answer.
You said MMO. I gave you an MMO. Now you want to move the goal posts and say RPG? WWII Online is an MMO. No, it is not mmo call of duty. It is an actual WWII simulator/strategy game that has been around since about 2002.
simulator/strategy game...? doesn't sound like an mmo to me. but you're saying there is 0 progression in that game? everyone is exactly the same and have access to exactly the same planes/tanks/w/e from the start and do not gain access to anything else through the course of play? sounds pretty boring if you ask me. Even call of duty has a level system where you progress.
Again you move the goal posts. You said there was no such thing as an MMO without levels. I've given you an example of an MMO without levels. But now in moving the goal posts, you say 'without progression'. WWII Online has unlocks which are horizontal (ie, no real power increase, just variety), but they are not levels. And these unlocks are easily accomplished within a week or two. Vast majority of players (ie, since 2002) have long ago unlocked everything and continue to play, without any further unlocks.
And yes, it is an MMO. Whether or not it 'sounds like an MMO' to you is irrelevant to the facts.
You can have successful mmos without levels, but not without progression.
Very true, and it's disenchanting that had to be spelled out for this crowd.
Not true, there is no such thing as an mmo without levels.
I guess I will repeat myself and say that WWII Online has no levels.
Never heard of it is that like call of duty but mmo call of duty? If you give me an mmorpg equivalent to that game and i'll give you an answer.
You said MMO. I gave you an MMO. Now you want to move the goal posts and say RPG? WWII Online is an MMO. No, it is not mmo call of duty. It is an actual WWII simulator/strategy game that has been around since about 2002.
simulator/strategy game...? doesn't sound like an mmo to me. but you're saying there is 0 progression in that game? everyone is exactly the same and have access to exactly the same planes/tanks/w/e from the start and do not gain access to anything else through the course of play? sounds pretty boring if you ask me. Even call of duty has a level system where you progress.
Again you move the goal posts. You said there was no such thing as an MMO without levels. I've given you an example of an MMO without levels. But now in moving the goal posts, you say 'without progression'. WWII Online has unlocks which are horizontal (ie, no real power increase, just variety), but they are not levels. And these unlocks are easily accomplished within a week or two. Vast majority of players (ie, since 2002) have long ago unlocked everything and continue to play, without any further unlocks.
And yes, it is an MMO. Whether or not it 'sounds like an MMO' to you is irrelevant to the facts.
i'm not moving goal post at all, im asking you to describe this game to me. by you saying 'no real power increase' says to me it is a power increase, just like gw2 doesn't have vertical progression its all horizontal turned out to be false, so yea im gonna go ahead and stamp this game with my "it has levels" stamp.
You can have successful mmos without levels, but not without progression.
Very true, and it's disenchanting that had to be spelled out for this crowd.
Not true, there is no such thing as an mmo without levels.
I guess I will repeat myself and say that WWII Online has no levels.
Never heard of it is that like call of duty but mmo call of duty? If you give me an mmorpg equivalent to that game and i'll give you an answer.
You said MMO. I gave you an MMO. Now you want to move the goal posts and say RPG? WWII Online is an MMO. No, it is not mmo call of duty. It is an actual WWII simulator/strategy game that has been around since about 2002.
simulator/strategy game...? doesn't sound like an mmo to me. but you're saying there is 0 progression in that game? everyone is exactly the same and have access to exactly the same planes/tanks/w/e from the start and do not gain access to anything else through the course of play? sounds pretty boring if you ask me. Even call of duty has a level system where you progress.
You can have successful mmos without levels, but not without progression.
Very true, and it's disenchanting that had to be spelled out for this crowd.
Not true, there is no such thing as an mmo without levels.
I guess I will repeat myself and say that WWII Online has no levels.
Never heard of it is that like call of duty but mmo call of duty? If you give me an mmorpg equivalent to that game and i'll give you an answer.
You said MMO. I gave you an MMO. Now you want to move the goal posts and say RPG? WWII Online is an MMO. No, it is not mmo call of duty. It is an actual WWII simulator/strategy game that has been around since about 2002.
simulator/strategy game...? doesn't sound like an mmo to me. but you're saying there is 0 progression in that game? everyone is exactly the same and have access to exactly the same planes/tanks/w/e from the start and do not gain access to anything else through the course of play? sounds pretty boring if you ask me. Even call of duty has a level system where you progress.
Again you move the goal posts. You said there was no such thing as an MMO without levels. I've given you an example of an MMO without levels. But now in moving the goal posts, you say 'without progression'. WWII Online has unlocks which are horizontal (ie, no real power increase, just variety), but they are not levels. And these unlocks are easily accomplished within a week or two. Vast majority of players (ie, since 2002) have long ago unlocked everything and continue to play, without any further unlocks.
And yes, it is an MMO. Whether or not it 'sounds like an MMO' to you is irrelevant to the facts.
i'm not moving goal post at all, im asking you to describe this game to me. by you saying 'no real power increase' says to me it is a power increase, just like gw2 doesn't have vertical progression its all horizontal turned out to be false, so yea im gonna go ahead and stamp this game with my "it has levels" stamp.
I can't be any more clear. It is a WWII simulator. It has guns. You play for a week, you've unlocked all the guns. Plenty of players still use their initial rifle because that weapon is just as viable as the other weapons. it comes down to roles. You might unlock an engineer who has a satchel charge to blow up a spawn point. But he is not more or less powerful than the initial rifle.
You can have successful mmos without levels, but not without progression.
Very true, and it's disenchanting that had to be spelled out for this crowd.
Not true, there is no such thing as an mmo without levels.
And even when spelled out, some still have trouble. vOv
Sephiroso, when people talk about 'levels' here - or in most MMO discussions you will ever take part in - they are talking about that tiered xp system carried over from PnP games. They are not referring to measures of progression as a whole.
But that is what the word level means as a definition. A measure of progression as a whole. It really honestly does not matter how it is portrayed. There are levels in just about everything, even real life.
My apologies. I thought you actually wanted to understand the particular usage in this thread and take part in the discussion.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
At this point in time, to me if a person asks can an mmo work without levels, they have to be talking about progression. Why? Because there have been and are dozens of mmo's without character or class levels around so obviously they can and do work.
Therefore either they are totally oblivious to some very popular games (eve?) or they have to be talking about levels in all forms, aka progression.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
Players will always try to develop their own power rating system. WoW gave us gearscore which let the players measure 'levels' after one reached the max level. Before that people were judged on the number and tier of epics they had.
A horizontal progression system is nice but if you limit how powerful the characters can become you risk locking the game into a stasis and people will get bored from the lack of progression.
Well obvious some people have more tolerance of the same game. There are people who still play Diablo 2 (TWO, not 3) too.
Most people don't. In fact, F2P MMO .. the retention length is what ... 4 months?
ANd personally i don't expect to spend a life-time in any games, MMO or not. That is just boring to me.
The reason you have levels is because of the way the genre went and it's easier to place content when you have levels. But since MMORPG's went from EQ to WoW as far as parentage for most of the genre it's going to be level based.
All games have levels whether they're announced publically or not. There has to be some means to measure advancement, how to determine who is better at something that someone else, etc. It can be levels, it can be skill levels, it can be lots of different things, but they all exist for the same purpose.
To say that any game on the market has no levels is absurd.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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Very true, and it's disenchanting that had to be spelled out for this crowd.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Content.
Content that is fun to do, be it in massive groups or soloing (yes, soloing). Even these big massive MMOs like WoW, can't get enough players to play at times. Have to have content that is playable 24/7, like right now at 1:45am. My sis couldn't complete the LFR raid just now, because they couldn't find enough healers (again). No healers is a sign the content is too boring to heal; the mechanics too trite; and the time is wasted. Folks can tack on 10000001 levels of progression to that, but if the mechanics are shot, why play?
It's much more than just progression levels, have to have SUPPORTED content at "end-game".
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Not true, there is no such thing as an mmo without levels.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
As long as people are open minded enough to give it a try, it can definitely work.
As long as people are still chasing the same carrot-on-a-stick, skinner-box gameplay model, it won't.
It comes down to the dilemma of complex/interesting game mechanics, vs. accessibility. Many people enjoy easier games, or don't want to think as much about the games they play. Many people want games to provide them with incentives, and are completely against having to create their own. That's the road block preventing more complex games from being made.
I guess I will repeat myself and say that WWII Online has no levels.
Never heard of it is that like call of duty but mmo call of duty? If you give me an mmorpg equivalent to that game and i'll give you an answer.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Not only would an MMO without levels work, it could very well be a better suited design for an MMO to begin with. Level progression is a system that works great in a finite game. MMOs aren't finite though.
The problem so far has been coming up with another source of motivation for people to play. Progression is easy to understand and highly motivating for a gamer, everyone understands 'bigger numbers'. There are some attempts now, and the reaction to them shows it's not only hard to develop non-progression MMOs, but it's also difficult to get players to unlearn their conditioning and open themselves up to the idea that playing for something else than bigger numbers can still be worthwile.
Again no such thing as no level design. Every mmorpg in existence has levels. The only difference is how its portrayed. Whether its a level that goes up and upon which you gain hp/mp/stats like a level 1-80 situation.
Or if its just a skill based level system where the more you use skills the stronger they get, still a level system.(think oblivion/skyrim)
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
And even when spelled out, some still have trouble. vOv
Sephiroso, when people talk about 'levels' here - or in most MMO discussions you will ever take part in - they are talking about that tiered xp system carried over from PnP games. They are not referring to measures of progression as a whole.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
But that is what the word level means as a definition. A measure of progression as a whole. It really honestly does not matter how it is portrayed. There are levels in just about everything, even real life.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
You said MMO. I gave you an MMO. Now you want to move the goal posts and say RPG? WWII Online is an MMO. No, it is not mmo call of duty. It is an actual WWII simulator/strategy game that has been around since about 2002.
simulator/strategy game...? doesn't sound like an mmo to me. but you're saying there is 0 progression in that game? everyone is exactly the same and have access to exactly the same planes/tanks/w/e from the start and do not gain access to anything else through the course of play? sounds pretty boring if you ask me. Even call of duty has a level system where you progress.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Again you move the goal posts. You said there was no such thing as an MMO without levels. I've given you an example of an MMO without levels. But now in moving the goal posts, you say 'without progression'. WWII Online has unlocks which are horizontal (ie, no real power increase, just variety), but they are not levels. And these unlocks are easily accomplished within a week or two. Vast majority of players (ie, since 2002) have long ago unlocked everything and continue to play, without any further unlocks.
And yes, it is an MMO. Whether or not it 'sounds like an MMO' to you is irrelevant to the facts.
i'm not moving goal post at all, im asking you to describe this game to me. by you saying 'no real power increase' says to me it is a power increase, just like gw2 doesn't have vertical progression its all horizontal turned out to be false, so yea im gonna go ahead and stamp this game with my "it has levels" stamp.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
It is a MMO shooter. You never heard of those?
I can't be any more clear. It is a WWII simulator. It has guns. You play for a week, you've unlocked all the guns. Plenty of players still use their initial rifle because that weapon is just as viable as the other weapons. it comes down to roles. You might unlock an engineer who has a satchel charge to blow up a spawn point. But he is not more or less powerful than the initial rifle.
So you are unlocking roles, not power levels.
My apologies. I thought you actually wanted to understand the particular usage in this thread and take part in the discussion.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
At this point in time, to me if a person asks can an mmo work without levels, they have to be talking about progression. Why? Because there have been and are dozens of mmo's without character or class levels around so obviously they can and do work.
Therefore either they are totally oblivious to some very popular games (eve?) or they have to be talking about levels in all forms, aka progression.