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Group game play looks too easy!
jesusjuice69
Member Posts: 276
A lot of people predicted that the game would be casualized months ago based on the chitchat regarding raids. Then we received info that the game would be released on consoles, and that fact seemed even more prevalent. Then the devs announce their light weight version of the trinity, and the roles seemed wishy-washy. Yet, there were still hopefuls that respectfully disagreed.
Now that we have finally seen group play in Quakecon, the only thing that I can think to say is "I TOLD YOU SO." Every fight was a hodgepodge of roles, as everyone seemed to be tanking, healing and DPS. There was no dedicated healer, no dedicated dps, and no dedicated tank. The whole group usually had 1 mob on them, and during the whole dungeon everyone just attacked the mob attacking them. Split DPS is a cardinal sin in challenging MMOS, and yet it was the norm in this preview. There was no coordination to speak of, such as CC, dps priority, etc. It was essentially 4 solo players going through that dungeon. Furthermore, I rarely even saw anything that needed to be avoided.
Where was this supposed advanced AI?
A smart AI would always win over players, especially if their numbers were substantially larger. Which is why it is impossible to have a truly smart AI, as it can only end in 2 ways.
#1 Impossible
It isn't hard to tell the AI to go kill the cloth priest in the back, and to do so with burst damage greater than their health or the rate of healing possible by the group. Thus, they can't be healed, and eventually they are guaranteed to die.
#2 Zerg
The only way something like this can work is if there is no weak cloth healer in the back for the AI to pick on. In which case the person the AI attacks is almost random, as everyone becomes a pseudo tank. Even, in this scenario the AI has been dumbed down to not burst players down. That is a zerg, which yields strategy as pointless. This is what we saw at Quakecon.
The irony of it is that the better you make the AI, the dumber it becomes.
Here is some footage to give you perspective of what I am talking about.
Exhibit A) Wildstar
This is a mid level dungeon, and they increase in difficulty as the game progresses.
NOTE: This is a walkthrough in Dev mode.
http://youtu.be/ko4cX0majzg?t=17m26s
Exhibit 
ESO
This is a 'grouop' of 4 people solo'ing their way through a dungeon.
http://youtu.be/kXJ0dwhijSg?t=19m10s
I am following 3 games atm; Wildstar, ESO, and EQnext.
I am not saying one is better than the other, I am saying the difference in perceived difficulty seems vast.
Comments
Well one of major flaws of Skyrim imo is that the game is ridiculously easy. You can run into bandit camp, one or two shot each bandit with them doing barely any damage to you.
From the footage Ive seen so far, ESO seems to be balanced around the same player power level.
Yeah..try doing that on legendary...
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
What? Why should I? You miss the point.MMOs have no difficulty options at the start, ESO will probably be the same as a "normal" Skyrim and thats actually very easy..
1) Its hard to take you seriously because of your posting history and continued bashing of ESO and support for Wildstar. When you start of a post with "I TOLD YOU SO" in capital letters which is borderline baiting, that doesn't give one the impression you are some nuetral bystander looking to discuss anything.
2) When you make comments like "A lot of people predicted" supporting your viewpoint and then write "there was still hopefuls" for those who don't share your biased viewpoint, you are making it sound as if you have polled the millions that are showing an interest in the game and that those "hopefuls" are the minority view...which is not necessarily the case.
3) Since I was in the beta for WildStar, I think a lot of "I told you so's" are eventually going to come out..though I personally don't have some twisted reason to keep posting over there because I've said what I felt already and I already know that game isn't even remotely close to what I'm looking for in an adult MMO feel. I'll leave it at that to respect the NDA. From the non beta gameplay videos on YouTube available to anyone, NPCs currently react just like WOW does
4) When I have created one or two posts in the ESO threads bringing up WildStar knowing the truth of where the questions came from in previous threads you have commented on, you would state "Why are you bringing up Wildstar". Then in this thread, the real intention comes out and you do just that.
5) I'm not going to judge anything from one small video at Quakecom because what I do know, that if they went in the Wildstar direction or your direction suggesting more cookie cutter classes without skill freedom and choice, you would alienate the millions of Elder Scrolls Fans that feel that is critical to their gaming experience. We saw one dungeons for a short period of time which they stated was just a fraction of the overall dungeon. I'm sure there will be content that will require cooperation and just like any good game, there will be those that have no clue and run around aimlessly and those that cooperate appropriately and since we have only seen 1/10000th of what the dungeons have to offer, it is premature to draw conclusions with "I TOLD YOU SO" comments.
There Is Always Hope!
I agree that on Normal as a Mage with Master of Conjuration and Destruction that I feel overpowered, especially when I have a henchman or summoned creature to assist, but it feels a lot more difficult when I switch to a conjured bow and I don't have those around to help me. I wish it did feel a little more difficult, but I do have situations that have been quite challenging, but I don't die that often. Im level 53 and started the Vampire DLC. I do hope the difficulty increases with this game.
There Is Always Hope!
#1 The only issues I have with ESO is the animations, and the perceived lack of difficulty. Lots of others have these same concerns, so Idk why you are singling me out. I get the feeling you are lashing out at anyone who dares criticize ESO. I have concerns with Wildstar as well. I am not that crazy about the CREDD system for instance.
#2 A lot of people shared my viewpoint that this game would be too easy. That was true. A lot of people believed otherwise, which was also true. My viewpoint isn't biased! That doesn't even really make sense. Again, it seems you are lashing out.
#3 So, you are breaking NDA. For some reason, I don't believe you. Regardless, you aren't saying anything of substance here.
#4 You were trying to use Wildstar as a red herring to discredit me. As if liking another game aside from ESO discredits my opinion about ESO. Totally different situation! I could of used footage from any decent challenging MMO to show how easy the combat was in ESO. I understand why you are lashing out at me now at least. Why are you holding a grudge on a forum? It would be laughing out loud hilarious, if it wasn't so sad.
#5 That is the problem. Every time evidence is produced these people bury their heads in the sand, and pretend it doesn't exist.
I am not interested in some forum war, so if you want a feud just send your hate to me via PM, and I will store your messages in the circular filing cabinet.
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Um, TESO is a single player game like GW2. There are no roles, there is no trinity, there will be no structured grouping, just zergs of various sizes.
A group of 5 soloists sharing a chat and instance isn't much of a group - just like in GW2. TESO will be the same. You can artificially induce difficulty in this style but it can never match the strategic sophistication of truly cooperative, structured, and role-based grouping.
Zerg harder, damn yas!
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
1) What are you kidding? You have lashed out against the game not being a true MMO, you have lashed out about the games graphics, not just animations, you have lashed out about one of its strengths, the freedom to develop your skills as you see fit, you have lashed out on the game about it being on consoles, you have lashed out about the perceived instancing, you have lashed out about it being brainless combat with limited AI, should I go on? Stop pretending as if you are a supporter only talking about only two things that bother you.
2) the way you just worded this seems more appropriate now.
3)I really don't care if you dont believe, and referencing known videos which are on youtube available for anyone to google is not breaking an NDA. Breaking an NDA means discussing your personal experiences within the game which I have not done.
4) The answer to this is easy "Posting History" showing a clear intent of supporting Wildstar at any cost and continuosly bringing up the negative in the ESO Forums...or talking about ESO in a negative way in the Wildstar forums which is exactly why it gets difficult to want to discuss a topic when the history shows an intent away from this type of honest discussion.
5)I could say the inverse of this...that even when Zenimax shows the opposite, you don't acknowledge the postives or that they are listening...nor do you acknowldge just how Elder Scrolls like this game is more and more looking like despite the obvious MMO sacrifices one has to make being that it is not a single player game.
Finally and again, putting in bold I TOLD YOU SO is borderline baiting.
There Is Always Hope!
#1 Even the devs said it isn't a true MMO. It is a multi-player ES game, and from what I have seen it looks like the multiplayer is really a glorified single player.
#2 That is obviously the meaning.
#3 Regardless, you never said anything of substance. Saying you were in the Beta is NDA breaking.
#4 Try commenting on arguments, and leave your personal feelings out of it. The person who wrote the argument is meaningless, as long as the argument is credible.
#5 Odd, then why are there so many people here agreeing with me? Show me even an iota of difficulty shown, or even hinted at in TESO.
I agree with this analysis. The game seems to be a clone of GW2, except they have the audacity to charge a monthly fee as well.1) I agree that to some extent, it is a PVE multiplayer, but there will be areas (Public Dungeons,etc) that will require more than 4 I believe..though we haven't seen any of it really. Most Skyrim fans will want more multiplayer aspects anyway. Regardless, they have also said that PVP at a mimimum will be 200 on the screen with 1000+ in an area. How is that not an MMO? In most games, people Solo be it WOW, Rift, AOC, GW2, etc so what difference does it make? Do you really think Wildstar is going to change that?
4) I have no idea what this means, so Ill skip it.
5) I can't yet. I agree that so far, I haven't seen enough challenging content because most of what has been shown in leaked videos and in the small presentations have been starter areas stuff or very controlled views that one would expect to be easy. Be patient and lets hope we see more difficulty. The problem that I have with you is that you've drawn a conclusion about the whole game with the very little all of us have seen. I will fully support what you wrote if by open beta there is zero challenge and everything feels brainless.
There Is Always Hope!
Wildstar really scared me away when I previewed what was released to date....not going there
I was even sort of taken back by the EQN debut except its mainly the character models (which can easily be reviewed and redone) and the overly animated combat seqences (yet there wasn't any MOB combat counterattack sequences during the encounters) that primarily had me wondering wtf...everything else was revolutionary and ingenius
Elder Scrolls Online solo and group play does look like a walk through the park and if it isn't improved/tweaked before release I am going to primarily concentrate on PvP like I have with pretty much every MMORPG since Everquest
Heard you can opt to do PvP from level 10 and gain experience to max level so I figure on doing that very thing right from the start. I am really interested in the real time combat PvP experience anyways so it will be my forte as I have always wondered how awesome it would be to PvP someone else in Skyrim.
Toughest fight I ever had in Skyrim was against 4 casters (Ice Wizard, Fire Wizard, Pyromancer, Master Necromancer) and it was also the longest fight I had ever encountered as I had upped the difficulty level and it was challenging to say the least.
I am not even remotely impressed by what I have viewed to date concerning PvE in Elder Scrolls Online. I for one really hope they tweak the difficulty of MOBs and improve MOB AI overall before this game hits the market as I see alot of folks burning through the content to participate in PvP much moreso except for some of the die hard Elder Scrolls fans who prefer to play casually.
If any developers are paying attention to these forums (which I figure would be somewhat intolerable at times) please heed this warning. Make PvE more challenging and difficult or your going to wonder wtf just happened to this franchise which is being introduced to the MMORPG market.
It shouldn't matter if players are dying alot and they need to help each other as that is what playing an MMORPG is all about...helping each other, grouping, assisting, etc...
Make the PvE game harder as there isn't a difficulty setting as there is in the single player games that could work in an MMO
Even as a fan and even though Im more impressed with what I saw after watching the 2 hr leaked video yesterday, even in that I didn't see any combat that led to near death experiences. In most cases, the health bar was full most of the time except when they jumped off a cliff...but again, its the starter area and I can't think of any game where I died in the first 10 levels except 10 years ago in WOW when princess the pig killed me solo being it was my first MMO. I heard since then they made that pig solo lol. Anyway, lets hope when they show higher level content we will see something more challenging. Anyway, I agree with most of what you wrote, I just have a different perspective based on the levels we have mostly seen.
There Is Always Hope!
OP, you seem to want to rely on other players for your enjoyment.
Their is a reason why modern mmo's are steering away from the trinity of tank, healer and dps and that is because it sucks balls.
If the tank wants to have a smoke, the entire group has to wait for him
If the healer needs to pick up the kids, the game is over for everyone else.
You are investing your good time and money to play the game on your terms, you should not be relying on anybody else for your own enjoyment.
Skyrim is only easy if you want it to be. that is the beauty of the game.
example. I have made over thirty characters in that games. 11 of which I still have, 8 are on a usb (i consider them dead) and the others were insignificant enough for me to just delete.
among all those chractes, the majority of them wear CLOTHES. not armor head to toe. CLOTHES!
try it sometime. It is a difficulty setting all on its own to just not make an unstoppable character. that is not the same as 'gimping'. just make a thief who only uses a dagger and a crossbow, and wears clothes and medium armor boots, and see how easy it is.
example 2- don't level blacksmithing or enchanting, or do level them and be unstoppable. easy fix.
That is what the casuals do.
Real hardcore Skyrim fans smash their hand in the car door before they play. Try it some time! You can feel the pain of your character every time you block, and attack.
Artificial difficulty created by the player might work is you are really bored, don't have another game to play, and have a lot of self restraint, but it is not true difficulty.
That might fly in single player, but not in an MMO.
MMORPG's are meant to be group experiences.
The big 4 mmos coming out, and 3/4 have trinity to some degree.
FF - Trinity
WS - Trinity
EQN - No trinity
ESO - Reduced Trinity
They are getting rid of the trinity in some MMOs, but that isn't necessarily only because that is what the players want.
If you allow everyone to do everything, and remove the trinity, then you essentially remove all balance concerns.
Thats the thing, most Skyrim fans dont want to be locked into the trinity. AGAIN, if they did that to this game they would alienate most of that user base. Second, you didn't really respond at all to what he wrote regarding why trinity creates challenges...because you tend to only want to prove a point instead of recognizing the points of others.
There Is Always Hope!
Watched the leaked video as well and the tester wasn't even trying imo and it was an absolute cake walk.
My first 3D MMORPG was the first one of its kind and dying before level 10 was much more common and it took much longer to reach level 10. Since that time every MMORPG has been easy mode.
I can deal with starter levels being introductory and educational. However if this is part of the learning curve and the developers do not ramp it up every 10 levels then the game will be F2P in a few months. Especially in these times with so many bold titles on the horizon by seasoned MMORPG companies.
Elder Scrolls online may not allow one to pause combat like previous Elder Scrolls games yet even in the leaked video the tester was tooling the MOBs with stuns, interrupts, dodging, etc...Im sure at higher and higher levels players are going to make a complete joke out of MOBs unless they have resistances and immunities to crowd control methods. Also, MOBs were attacking in entirely different directions during part of the encounter and most died without hardly doing any damage and others died without any defense/attack/counterattack and I am not talking about the rabbits either...
Elder Scrols Online is due out this spring...hindsight maybe 20/20 yet when millions of dollars are involved it only makes sense to consider it isn't hard to make this game harder and more robust as MOB AI is obviously going to be on par with previous generation MMORPGs and that isn't saying much.
This is why many MMORPG enthusiasts resign themselves to participating and dedicating themselves to PvP much moreso as why devote a good portion of time and energy to something that isn't even remotely a challenge overall? Guess its a good thing Cryodiil and AvA is a big part of Elder Scrolls Online and former DAOC developers at the helm otherwise ESO would be a bust right from the beginning.
I seriously want this game to succeed though if you don't listen to your beta testers, fanbase, playerbase...then you simply deserve exactly what happens. Until a company thoroughly fathoms this in its entirety they have no business designing games in this genre.
Multi-Million dollar flops happen too often in this genre as I have even witnessed good ol Brad McQuaid say this very thing whilst developing Vanguard only to witness him eat every word as his creation did that very thing.
How do you know this? The trinity and Skyrim are not mutually exclusive entities.
His point? You mean when he commented that the trinity quote "sucks balls"?
That amazing and revolutionary point, or are you referring to the one where he says that everyone should just play solo? I mean, because it is impossible to find replacement players.
So you want them to show a difficult encounter where they will wipe within a minute and keep doing it?
All they wanted to do was show an encounter and finish it while walking players through some possbilities.
Now, havign played the game I can tell you that not every mob I encountered had "advanced ai". However, I did encounter some bandits that, when I ran toward them, one of them vaulted over my head to attack me from the back while the other peppered me with arrows.
I think you expect too much for a simple walkthrough.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
They already changed the AI to not try to get behind you, so ES fans can better play in 1st person. lol!
I expect too much from a walkthrough? I didn't have high expectations, but I hoped to see something more than a zerg. I expected to see some hint of the trinity, as they said it existed. I didn't see that. I expected to see their advanced AI, and I didn't see it. I expected to see telegraphs and movement, but I saw a couple puddles of oil.
I saw a skyrim online zerg, where 4 people solo'd there way through a dungeon. Honestly, as far as the trinity is concerned I don't think they could have made that presentation any worse.
I think if you are waiting for this Dev team who are trying to attract fans of the very successful franchise to buy their mmo on a monthly basis, to betray that fan base and turn the game into a dungeon raid grind, I think you will be waiting a long long time.
From what I can tell they are playing up to the other spectrum of the mmo market RvR, pvp, exploration. To have such outrage over how easy mobs are to kill indicates not having played Elder scrolls single player games and now wanting the Elder Scrolls mmo to be just like the other themeparks,. Thats just not very realistic.
You cant compare these two products
One company is trying to create a good game, the other is trying to create an immersive virtual world.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
And you know for sure they did this?
In any case, I think you need to relax and play the game. Then we can see what this ai is all about.
I also think players only hear what they want to hear. "no" not every fight is going to be a fight for your life. I think for some reason when players hear "advanced ai" (EQNext as well) they expect these involved by the skin of your teeth fights.
They already said mobs help each other out depending on their intelligence. I believe they heal each other, look for cover, etc.
That's probably the extent of it.
Also I think players use the word "zerg" a bit too much. Additionally, if I remember correctly, though they said the "trinity" was there, the game is NOT strictly a trinity game. You can mix and match your skills.
don't expect a traditional trinity game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And then they said the reason they "said" that was not to scare non mmo players away. The game is an mmo but the feel is of a multi-player ES game.
Which is fine by me because the game play in Elder Srolls games trumps most mmo's.
I have no idea if this game is goign to be good or great (or bad or horrid) but I think I'll see for myself in this next iteration instead of crying the sky is falling.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo