Originally posted by Loktofeit Actually, the term as used in reference to repetitive work is one that has a negative connotation to it. If someone always replied with "It was a grind" each time you asked them how their work day was, you'd probably ask them why they don't look for another job. I don't doubt you'll want to argue that, but I rather not sidetrack the thread with grade school level lessons on how words work, so please read this page and catch up.
Irrelevant.
Connotation does not change a meaning of the word. It is the same case you often happen to argue against - "true MMO", "true gamer", etc.
Thing are no more real because of your personal bias.
Back in time when i played wow actively i spent two weeks mining rich thorium nodes to get 20 arcanite crystals for my hunter's gun.. loved every minute of it.
Back in time when i played wow actively i spent 8 hours a day for a whole month doing same quest over and over again to get my winterspring frost saber mount.. loved every minute of it.
What is grind to me? Honestly, i have no idea. I suppose if a whole end game is about killing mobs over and over again i would consider it a grind.
And then how do you distinguish something that is a GRIND from something that isn't a GRIND?
When I find it fun, it's not a grind. Obviously, for me at least, the presence of a grind is completely subjective.
Yeah this nails it. I especially like use of the word "routine", as that's really what the word grind means: it's a player describing that for them, the activity has become too repetitive; too familiar.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Grind is forcing the player to do tasks over and over again, much after they stop being entertaining for the player. There are strong-willed players who can overcome the effort if the reward is enough for them. Or even players who seem to enjoy these "boring" tasks no matter if they take ages.
Having small rewards along the way (GW2, WoW, SWTOR), or giving parts of an amazing story (SWTOR for example), or even allowing the player to do several things in order to achieve the same or a similar goal (EVE Online), help to reduce the feeling of grind. But every game has at least a small part of grind, because it's almost impossible to make something which is entertaining all the time. However, there are developers who don't care event the least if the player is bored or not if they achieve their goals (like having a huge number of sales in the first day, or having a big number of players the first month, no matter if they want your head off in the next one)
Rinse and Repeat. I don't care if it takes a year to move up one level, as long as in doing do, I am doing it for a good reason. Running the same mission / quest over and over....again and again for XP / better stuff is not a good reason. Making 12 million iron ingots so I can someday make brass ingots is not a good reason either.
A grind may be time consuming as well. A notorious example of time consuming grind is WoW classic grind to pvp rank 14, which required players to invest 13 hours a day for 2 months on active servers, and if you missed a day it would set you back a week or more.
Have you ever done it before in real life? Had some spice in its full form and had to ground it into powder? Normally done with a hand crank...turning the crank over and over and over and over for SOME powder.
That is what grinding is. Doing the same thing repeatedly for a long time to get a small reward.
Originally posted by Loktofeit What constitutes a GRIND in an MMO to you?
A routine, laborious task.
And then how do you distinguish something that is a GRIND from something that isn't a GRIND?
When I find it fun, it's not a grind. Obviously, for me at least, the presence of a grind is completely subjective.
But I mean even by what you described it appears to be fairly flimsy. It could almost be taken on a mood by mood basis. Routine and laborious, what constitutes that? Does the monster have too much health, require too many people to take down? Is it the monsters? Is the exp threshold per level too high? Is it the fact that you feel the "real game" starts at MAX level aka end game? There's so many ways to go about it. Is it because you didn't feel like playing that day? Can the same activity be considered a grind one day and not a grind the next day? There's gotta be something more specific even to you or else what is the criteria that you are judging the MMO and basing this "grind" on?
As I said, it's entirely subjective and based a lot on WHY one is doing the activity.
The same activity in two different situations can take on completely different meanings. For example, let's two people are enjoying killing a field of bears over and over. They find the loot and xp rewarding. so it isn't a grind to them.
Now, one person levels beyond the other and is now killing frogs over and over, having fun doing so. The lower level person wants to play with the other one, so now the reason for killing the bears has changed. The goal is no longer to kill bears with their friend, rather it is now to level up to play with their friend again. In such a scenario, that same activity can now become a grind. Their goal has changed, so instead of bear slaying being what they want to do, it is now the activity that proves to be a barrier to what they want to do, as they cannot move to frogs until they have sufficiently slain enough bears.
There's no magic criteria for what makes something a grind or not other than one's own goals and interests during gameplay, both of which could change weekly, daily, or even hourly.
"It could almost be taken on a mood by mood basis."
That's exactly what it's based on, Jairoe.
Maybe i should have read a few posts further to see that one.. because here you already specified it.
The grind is a direct result from the "end game" concept. The idea that you have to jump through thousands of hoops in order to get to the "fun stuff". And of course, the more hoops the game has, the more "grindy" it is.
There are MMOs out there where it's all about the journey and not about a destination.
Disagree with that. The problem of grinding in an MMO, and the discussion among players about it, existed in the very early MMOs already, before the idea of 'endgame' was as widespread and formularized as it is now in MMO design. Endgame is another design that can compound the grind due to how it shapes player motivation, but it's not the same, nor is it the cause.
Loktofeits definition is pretty much spot on. A simple, menial task repeated so often it stops being enjoyable, but encouraged by the games design (or lack thereof).
Originally posted by Loktofeit Actually, the term as used in reference to repetitive work is one that has a negative connotation to it. If someone always replied with "It was a grind" each time you asked them how their work day was, you'd probably ask them why they don't look for another job.
I don't doubt you'll want to argue that, but I rather not sidetrack the thread with grade school level lessons on how words work, so please read this page and catch up.
Irrelevant.
Connotation does not change a meaning of the word. It is the same case you often happen to argue against - "true MMO", "true gamer", etc.
Thing are no more real because of your personal bias.
I did not say connotation changes meaning. Grind is like Fun. It s a term that describes your personal impression of something you've experienced. It is entirely a subjective term. Do you also contend that "fun" is definitive and that something is still fun for someone even if they aren't enjoying it?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard The grind is a direct result from the "end game" concept. The idea that you have to jump through thousands of hoops in order to get to the "fun stuff". And of course, the more hoops the game has, the more "grindy" it is.There are MMOs out there where it's all about the journey and not about a destination.
Do you think people feeling the need to "grind" to the end-game is the players' faults or the company's fault? Personally I never feel rushed to have to reach the end (at least I don't feel this way playing FFXIV currently), but I see many people even ones I personally know rushing to the very end and spending every waking minute leveling their "main" class despite the flexibility provided by the game. This results with players getting to the end even if it means ending with minimal amounts of resources/money, it's somewhat of a whatever-it-takes type attitude. I almost want to blame the players instead of the company for making some games feel like a "grind".
A good example was when a buddy started leveling a second class with no exp help from quests having done it on his main class, his comment was "back to the grind" and I was like, you mean "levequests, guildhests and hunting log?" and his response was "yup, grind". 3 activities all dismissed as grind because of this driven need to reach the end-game of a brand new game (which I'm not even entirely sure if a robust end-game exists for it yet). Can players ever be satisfied or prevented from calling MMO gameplay a grind or is this going to persist as long as MMO's exist?
The grind is a direct result from the "end game" concept. The idea that you have to jump through thousands of hoops in order to get to the "fun stuff". And of course, the more hoops the game has, the more "grindy" it is.
There are MMOs out there where it's all about the journey and not about a destination.
I agree and disagree. I think you can actually have a grind without an end-game. However what usually happens is that games with end-games focus on it so much they end up trivializing all the content before it and thus worsening the whole thing. It's more like a catalyst rather than a cause.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Grind at least in MMORPG speak was brought in by the first casuals that infected the genre,now its a grind for them to walk to a teleporter that zaps them wherever in the world they want or to even log into the game They have killed the genre,no word 'grind' existed in MMO speak back in the early days.
Edit: I'm not talking about logging into FF14 either lol.
Originally posted by Gdemami Originally posted by LoktofeitGrind is like Fun.
It isn't. The term does not express your feelings or emotions, grind is a principle, mechanics.
Nothing subjective there.
And provides nothing to back up that claim, from what most posters have put in here, it definitely appears subjective or to put it even more plainly, judgement varying from person to person. How is that some kind of principle or fact? Do companies just knowingly place grind in their games knowing that people generally don't like it and usually associated with negative game experiences? Please enlighten some of us on your justification beyond the silly 1 liner you gave us.
Grind, hmm, used to be AION. But hear that is not the case anymore!
3 months to move up 5 levels! That is grind at 4-6 hours a day! AION brought that.
Yet many old timers want this so to them this is not grind.
To me grind is doing the same dungeon 100s of time to get my gear set only to move on up to the next tier and do it all again - same for PvP, gind the same BS/WZ to get enough points to buy your gear then do it all again for the next tier.... but some people enjoy it.
Comments
i do actually agree with loktofeit - i also dont count repeated action as a grind if i have fun doing so (e.g. crafting in vanguard or ffxiv)
Grind mean crush something large into small pieces with same size, heavy grind mean crush something to dust .
for example:
You need 1 mil exp for next level ,
crush them to 10 or 100 quests pieces (100k to 10k exp per quest) , then start your game to collect the pieces.
In heavy grind case a level get crushed to 1000 pieces/mobs (1000 exp per mob) then start your collecting one by one
Collecting something that crushed to dust one by one are heavy work , so very small hard worker enjoy it.
bigger pieces are easier work, but it boring like hell when you have to do it along and after 1000 piece , most people stat lost they enjoyment .
hope future developers don't crush the pieces too small, ready tired of quest grind now ... well , after thousands of quest , who wasn't tired ?
A large diamond always have more value than pieces of diamond dust
Irrelevant.
Connotation does not change a meaning of the word. It is the same case you often happen to argue against - "true MMO", "true gamer", etc.
Thing are no more real because of your personal bias.
Back in time when i played wow actively i spent two weeks mining rich thorium nodes to get 20 arcanite crystals for my hunter's gun.. loved every minute of it.
Back in time when i played wow actively i spent 8 hours a day for a whole month doing same quest over and over again to get my winterspring frost saber mount.. loved every minute of it.
What is grind to me? Honestly, i have no idea. I suppose if a whole end game is about killing mobs over and over again i would consider it a grind.
Yeah this nails it. I especially like use of the word "routine", as that's really what the word grind means: it's a player describing that for them, the activity has become too repetitive; too familiar.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Grind is forcing the player to do tasks over and over again, much after they stop being entertaining for the player. There are strong-willed players who can overcome the effort if the reward is enough for them. Or even players who seem to enjoy these "boring" tasks no matter if they take ages.
Having small rewards along the way (GW2, WoW, SWTOR), or giving parts of an amazing story (SWTOR for example), or even allowing the player to do several things in order to achieve the same or a similar goal (EVE Online), help to reduce the feeling of grind. But every game has at least a small part of grind, because it's almost impossible to make something which is entertaining all the time. However, there are developers who don't care event the least if the player is bored or not if they achieve their goals (like having a huge number of sales in the first day, or having a big number of players the first month, no matter if they want your head off in the next one)
Grind is a simple term.
Have you ever done it before in real life? Had some spice in its full form and had to ground it into powder? Normally done with a hand crank...turning the crank over and over and over and over for SOME powder.
That is what grinding is. Doing the same thing repeatedly for a long time to get a small reward.
grind for me?
any repitiious timesink
mob grinds, faction grinds, dungeon grinds, crafting grinds, quest grinds, etc
EQ2 fan sites
Grind = playing mmorpg's
Positive grind = playing the same mmorpg every day and enjoy it
Negative grind = get bored of the current mmorpg and start grinding the mmorpg.com
Yeap.. but more precisely do something you don't like/enjoy to get (to) something you may like or enjoy.
Maybe i should have read a few posts further to see that one.. because here you already specified it.
Diluting the term into personal biases does not make it more precise, on the contrary.
The term does not imply any affection. It is a term for mechanics of routine and laborious task. No more no less.
Disagree with that. The problem of grinding in an MMO, and the discussion among players about it, existed in the very early MMOs already, before the idea of 'endgame' was as widespread and formularized as it is now in MMO design. Endgame is another design that can compound the grind due to how it shapes player motivation, but it's not the same, nor is it the cause.
Loktofeits definition is pretty much spot on. A simple, menial task repeated so often it stops being enjoyable, but encouraged by the games design (or lack thereof).
I agree.
To put it another way: "grind" is the use of a carrot that successfully gets me playing a part of the game that I'm not actually enjoying.
I did not say connotation changes meaning. Grind is like Fun. It s a term that describes your personal impression of something you've experienced. It is entirely a subjective term. Do you also contend that "fun" is definitive and that something is still fun for someone even if they aren't enjoying it?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Do you think people feeling the need to "grind" to the end-game is the players' faults or the company's fault? Personally I never feel rushed to have to reach the end (at least I don't feel this way playing FFXIV currently), but I see many people even ones I personally know rushing to the very end and spending every waking minute leveling their "main" class despite the flexibility provided by the game. This results with players getting to the end even if it means ending with minimal amounts of resources/money, it's somewhat of a whatever-it-takes type attitude. I almost want to blame the players instead of the company for making some games feel like a "grind".
A good example was when a buddy started leveling a second class with no exp help from quests having done it on his main class, his comment was "back to the grind" and I was like, you mean "levequests, guildhests and hunting log?" and his response was "yup, grind". 3 activities all dismissed as grind because of this driven need to reach the end-game of a brand new game (which I'm not even entirely sure if a robust end-game exists for it yet). Can players ever be satisfied or prevented from calling MMO gameplay a grind or is this going to persist as long as MMO's exist?
I agree and disagree. I think you can actually have a grind without an end-game. However what usually happens is that games with end-games focus on it so much they end up trivializing all the content before it and thus worsening the whole thing. It's more like a catalyst rather than a cause.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Grind at least in MMORPG speak was brought in by the first casuals that infected the genre,now its a grind for them to walk to a teleporter that zaps them wherever in the world they want or to even log into the game
They have killed the genre,no word 'grind' existed in MMO speak back in the early days.
Edit: I'm not talking about logging into FF14 either lol.
It isn't. The term does not express your feelings or emotions, grind is a principle, mechanics.
Nothing subjective there.
It isn't. The term does not express your feelings or emotions, grind is a principle, mechanics.
Nothing subjective there.
And provides nothing to back up that claim, from what most posters have put in here, it definitely appears subjective or to put it even more plainly, judgement varying from person to person. How is that some kind of principle or fact? Do companies just knowingly place grind in their games knowing that people generally don't like it and usually associated with negative game experiences? Please enlighten some of us on your justification beyond the silly 1 liner you gave us.
Yet many old timers want this so to them this is not grind.
To me grind is doing the same dungeon 100s of time to get my gear set only to move on up to the next tier and do it all again - same for PvP, gind the same BS/WZ to get enough points to buy your gear then do it all again for the next tier.... but some people enjoy it.