Originally posted by BearKnight This also pertains to the unfortunate reality that unless a major studio finally decides to take a risk we'll most likely only see future innovations from unknown smaller companies, or even simply Indie startups to save the MMORPG industry as a whole.
So, why is the MMORPG genre the way it is now? Well, part of the truth is in the very title of this thread. The genre of MMORPG's has become an "Industry" in and of itself.
Back in 1998 when I first logged into Ultima Online I was amazed at how many people were playing in the same game as me (I was ~11 at the time). The sheer fact that I could go out and meet people all across the world that I didn't know was an awe inspiring thought to me.
But wait! Nostalgia aside, the original company that created Ultima Online was not some huge mega corporation! It was a relatively small startup from a group of dudes who loved gaming, and wanted something "more" than just MUDs. (google a mud if you're too young to know what they are)
Yea, that's right, Electronic Arts used to be a tiny company! You could at one point call them an Indie company!
It was SMALL companies "back in the day" that created the MMORPG genre of online gaming, not huge mega corporations like SOE (whom also used to be a smaller company in the past when they actually made good products).
So what happened? Where did everything go wrong?
Success is what happened, and ironically is what went wrong with our beloved MMORPG's. Everquest was so successful, for its day, that it inspired Blizzard to take all the "best mainstream qualities of current MMORPGs" and WoW was born from that inspiration.
Over time, small indie companies became bigger and bigger, then other companies merged together to become even larger studios. These studios then became huge corporations whom then started devouring (buying up) small studios to become the Mega Corporations we see today.
Mega Corporations have one fault, they MUST make money with whatever they do. This means it is almost impossible for them to be willing to take risks due to too many people relying on said Mega Corporation to produce. So what we see are calculated anti-risk decisions that are gauranteed, in their spreadsheet, pie chart, and super organized presentations, to make their respective company money.
This is also what has spawned self proclaimed "experts" whom are driving the industry on its current path of cookie-cutter clones of previous MMOs gone-by. They aren't actually MMO players, but are "analysts" whom only look at numbers and proclaim popularity by majority.
This is where RIFT, WAR, SWTOR, Allods, and the like came from. Analysts whom don't actually play the products they're analysing whom don't understand that WoW themepark gameplay is NOT what an MMO is as a "core concept". However, it's not their fault. Afterall they're just trying to guarantee a profit for their respective corporation so they don't force people to lose their jobs over underperformance.
So, what do we do? Where do we go from here?
From a personal perspective from all my years of gaming online all I can say is that mayhaps it is time for a collapse of the "industry" in order to return it to its roots that made it so great. I'm not saying let's embrace the 20hr camps in EQ again. However, what I am saying is that unless these Mega Corporations stop chasing money and start chasing their customer's respect as well as their "fun" we won't see the genre change.
Perhaps, Indie companies are the only source of quality "fun" or "challenge" anymore? I hope not, but it may be our only choice.
That's my 15year experience of MMORPG's talking anyways.....cheers !
-Bear
To get to the heart of this, I'm going to use some Nerdtalk here. Bear, me and your a paladins in dark times. I completely agree with this post wholeheartedly. You've perfectly said what I've posted a scrillion times. On these forums, too many people FIGHT against P2P games, or sandboxes, or whatever even closely resembles any good MMORPG. When reading a post they automatically point out how drastically criplling a month to month payment is without even considering the idea that what you're paying for far exceeds an gaming experience you will ever find.
The feeling of being completely engrossed in an mmo is the funnest experience that gaming can give you. But everyone is so used to 'grab it, play it, dump it' playstyles, they have either never experienced a good mmo or have forgotten what it was like. Now what i mean by good MMORPG is the above mentioned indie-released games. The ones that are forged with great consideration and passion and developers who love what they do, rather than pumping out a factory-made piece of crap.
Players truly don't understand the idea of an MMORPG anymore. As you mentioned as well, the LIVING BREATHING WORLD. Those don't exist anymore! It's all quest quest gear gear money money pvp pvp. That is literally end-game and leveling experience of about every mmo now. I remember the days of Entertainer in SWG. Who would have thought talking to guildmates, granting buffs to pvpers through music, and just listening to the tunes jamming out with your holographic band, would be fun? But it was amazing.
Is this nostalgia? HELL NO, tell me to put my rose-colored glasses on and i want to flip. No other game, since that game has shut down has offered anything close to that. Anyone new-era gamers remember going into your guild headquarters or your house and looking at all the cool collectibles on the wall? Nope. Nothing like that exists anymore. It's simply not the same. If there were games like this i would definitely play them. No questions, and this has fueled my ambition for Archeage as well. You can sail, own a home, have a guild, you can LIVE in your character in the game.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
I think the only problem with corporations (at least in my country) is that they are considered people. And, I mean that the name of a corporation (the name itself, not a person or group of people behind it) is a legally recognized person, with rights. The Chairman, the vp, the treasurer, and the fold over all are acting under power of attorney for this "persons" best interests which include the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness [and right to access of the public lands and common wealth for exclusive, mutual or public benefit of course. And, wherein it is for exclusive/mutual benefit, but also by no intention of that person to the deficit of the public benefit (such as destroying 2nd and 3rd generational farmers lands forcing them to abandon said lands do to toxicity levels, massive sink holes that swallow their out buildings and houses and unsafe dumping practices...all because dad didn't see the need to buy the mineral rights to his own land) , the same nominal fines that would apply to any other person apply to this person not exceeding amounts that would be applied to any other single person. Regardless of how much this 'person' uses...as is fair.]
I think the problem is leadership. Most gaming companies are stuck in a mind frame that if they make a game easy for players more players will stick around. I think that ideology is outdated and the flood of failed games has proven it.
Lets be honest, If you do not have a challenge how can any victory be worth achieving. Gaming companies need to stop kneeling to the non hackers and simpletons who love to follow the dam arrow during a quest.
But hell what do I know let these gaming companies lose millions more.
stopped reading after you called EA a tiny company
EA was founded at about 1982 or sth, and it god some huge games on the early computers already by the 90s.
basically every gamer knew electronic arts
also, before "ultima online" there were plenty of normal ultima parts, which actually made the series big, running for about 18 years till you started playing.
so. the "real reason" why YOU think the industry is the way it is now..... with your half knowledge.
ps: no matter how often you say it. ultima online used an old system they did NOT invent, and WoW surely did not copy UO, but every running mmo those days. exactly what everyone hoped they would do, give us a real mmo in a world of warcraft, having the quality they showed us in diablo and warcraft.
that's the way how you produce good games, take what gamers like, add new stuff to make em like it even more. love it or leave it, that's the just way it is.
"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid and i did it anyway!"
1. Please learn to separate your personal opinion from actual facts.
2. When you say something is fact - make sure it is actually a fact and not a made up fact or a false fact.
3. Hearsay is not a fact - i.e. just because someone told you A and you didn't verify what they said from other sources it is NOT a fact.
You can't say just because A is followed by B eventually there will be a Z. That is logical fallacy. Generally by the time people are 26 they tend to be more humble about how much they believe they understand.
To get to the heart of this, I'm going to use some Nerdtalk here. Bear, me and your a paladins in dark times. I completely agree with this post wholeheartedly. You've perfectly said what I've posted a scrillion times. On these forums, too many people FIGHT against P2P games, or sandboxes, or whatever even closely resembles any good MMORPG. When reading a post they automatically point out how drastically criplling a month to month payment is without even considering the idea that what you're paying for far exceeds an gaming experience you will ever find.
The feeling of being completely engrossed in an mmo is the funnest experience that gaming can give you. But everyone is so used to 'grab it, play it, dump it' playstyles, they have either never experienced a good mmo or have forgotten what it was like. Now what i mean by good MMORPG is the above mentioned indie-released games. The ones that are forged with great consideration and passion and developers who love what they do, rather than pumping out a factory-made piece of crap.
Players truly don't understand the idea of an MMORPG anymore. As you mentioned as well, the LIVING BREATHING WORLD. Those don't exist anymore! It's all quest quest gear gear money money pvp pvp. That is literally end-game and leveling experience of about every mmo now. I remember the days of Entertainer in SWG. Who would have thought talking to guildmates, granting buffs to pvpers through music, and just listening to the tunes jamming out with your holographic band, would be fun? But it was amazing.
Is this nostalgia? HELL NO, tell me to put my rose-colored glasses on and i want to flip. No other game, since that game has shut down has offered anything close to that. Anyone new-era gamers remember going into your guild headquarters or your house and looking at all the cool collectibles on the wall? Nope. Nothing like that exists anymore. It's simply not the same. If there were games like this i would definitely play them. No questions, and this has fueled my ambition for Archeage as well. You can sail, own a home, have a guild, you can LIVE in your character in the game.
I agree. Your post isn't nostalgia. Calling it nostalgia would be an insult to the word nostalgia.
I'll give you one thing, though. You are correct that you and the OP are a lot alike.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Lets be honest, If you do not have a challenge how can any victory be worth achieving. Gaming companies need to stop kneeling to the non hackers and simpletons who love to follow the dam arrow during a quest.
nah .. i think most devs have decided, as blizzard, not to cater to the 2% who would spend night and day and get into the hardest raids.
Challenge is in the eye of the beholder. The best solution i have seen is a difficulty slider.
What you think is "hard" may be trivially easy for a guild like Paragon, and impossible for some other players. There is no reason why a company should just cater to you, instead of these other groups, unless you are a huge whale, and can outpay everyone else.
Lets be honest, If you do not have a challenge how can any victory be worth achieving. Gaming companies need to stop kneeling to the non hackers and simpletons who love to follow the dam arrow during a quest.
nah .. i think most devs have decided, as blizzard, not to cater to the 2% who would spend night and day and get into the hardest raids.
Challenge is in the eye of the beholder. The best solution i have seen is a difficulty slider.
What you think is "hard" may be trivially easy for a guild like Paragon, and impossible for some other players. There is no reason why a company should just cater to you, instead of these other groups, unless you are a huge whale, and can outpay everyone else.
Blizzard catered to its base players who were not mmorpg player, they made the game simple so they could transition. Thats why every game who has tried ro follow that model have failed It was a fluke ... lol
Minecraft has proven your thought incorrect. 240 million+ profits in 2012 alone on a ugly game with hardcore death penalty and challenging game play...
challenging game play is the future of mmorpgs. the era have of hand holding is over.
Lets be honest, If you do not have a challenge how can any victory be worth achieving. Gaming companies need to stop kneeling to the non hackers and simpletons who love to follow the dam arrow during a quest.
nah .. i think most devs have decided, as blizzard, not to cater to the 2% who would spend night and day and get into the hardest raids.
Challenge is in the eye of the beholder. The best solution i have seen is a difficulty slider.
What you think is "hard" may be trivially easy for a guild like Paragon, and impossible for some other players. There is no reason why a company should just cater to you, instead of these other groups, unless you are a huge whale, and can outpay everyone else.
Blizzard catered to its base players who were not mmorpg player, they made the game simple so they could transition. Thats why every game who has tried ro follow that model have failed It was a fluke ... lol
Minecraft has proven your thought incorrect. 240 million+ profits in 2012 alone on a ugly game with hardcore death penalty and challenging game play...
challenging game play is the future of mmorpgs. the era have of hand holding is over.
After re-toolling their product to account for 50-500k players (reasonable), instead of millions of players (not reasonable). Most are making money hand over fist.
Your idea of failed is apparently very different from my idea.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Lets be honest, If you do not have a challenge how can any victory be worth achieving. Gaming companies need to stop kneeling to the non hackers and simpletons who love to follow the dam arrow during a quest.
nah .. i think most devs have decided, as blizzard, not to cater to the 2% who would spend night and day and get into the hardest raids.
Challenge is in the eye of the beholder. The best solution i have seen is a difficulty slider.
What you think is "hard" may be trivially easy for a guild like Paragon, and impossible for some other players. There is no reason why a company should just cater to you, instead of these other groups, unless you are a huge whale, and can outpay everyone else.
Blizzard catered to its base players who were not mmorpg player, they made the game simple so they could transition. Thats why every game who has tried ro follow that model have failed It was a fluke ... lol
Minecraft has proven your thought incorrect. 240 million+ profits in 2012 alone on a ugly game with hardcore death penalty and challenging game play...
challenging game play is the future of mmorpgs. the era have of hand holding is over.
Four problems in your reasoning:
1. Minecraft can be played in builder mode so you can choose weather you want to just build things or actually challenge yourself.
2. Minecraft has a difficulty selection when you start the game.
3. Minecraft can be played a single player game.
3. In order to show that 1, 2 and 3 don't matter you need data showing that vast majority of people prefer the most hardcore mode possible. Until you can present such data your argument doesn't hold water.
Additionally - there are always exceptions to the rule. Minecraft was potentially a fluke, much like WoW.
Lets be honest, If you do not have a challenge how can any victory be worth achieving. Gaming companies need to stop kneeling to the non hackers and simpletons who love to follow the dam arrow during a quest.
nah .. i think most devs have decided, as blizzard, not to cater to the 2% who would spend night and day and get into the hardest raids.
Challenge is in the eye of the beholder. The best solution i have seen is a difficulty slider.
What you think is "hard" may be trivially easy for a guild like Paragon, and impossible for some other players. There is no reason why a company should just cater to you, instead of these other groups, unless you are a huge whale, and can outpay everyone else.
Blizzard catered to its base players who were not mmorpg player, they made the game simple so they could transition. Thats why every game who has tried ro follow that model have failed It was a fluke ... lol
Minecraft has proven your thought incorrect. 240 million+ profits in 2012 alone on a ugly game with hardcore death penalty and challenging game play...
challenging game play is the future of mmorpgs. the era have of hand holding is over.
After re-toolling their product to account for 50-500k players (reasonable), instead of millions of players (not reasonable). Most are making money hand over fist.
Your idea of failed is apparently very different from my idea.
lol most are not making hand over fist.... Most games are selling their rights over to companies that are hosting and running these ftp games. Name your easy to play games that are making cash over fist?
I stopped the moment it was hinted that EA was small company back when UO was released. i wish people in this forum would stop posting when they are hallucinating.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
You can't REALLY discuss a subjective opinion. You either agree with said opinion, or you don't. That's not a discussion. It's just an OP looking for validation through the agreement of others.
Of course you can. You can state it and why. May be that does not applies to others, but certainly you can discuss them.
Here is an example.
I don't play MMORPGs to socialize. I like solo content in MMORPGs. I like LFD and LFR.
See ... and i am not looking for validation. I just like to express myself, and response to others who comment on my expression.
@narisseldon -- Your examples are perfectly what you said -- an expression of your opinion without looking for justification of validation from the community. But at the same time, they aren't open to discussion, nor do they lead to discussion. They are the particular facts that are 100% true to you, but may have no bearing on anyone else. BadSpock was pointing out that the OP posted his opinions as universal facts, rather than his own private opinions.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Lets be honest, If you do not have a challenge how can any victory be worth achieving. Gaming companies need to stop kneeling to the non hackers and simpletons who love to follow the dam arrow during a quest.
nah .. i think most devs have decided, as blizzard, not to cater to the 2% who would spend night and day and get into the hardest raids.
Challenge is in the eye of the beholder. The best solution i have seen is a difficulty slider.
What you think is "hard" may be trivially easy for a guild like Paragon, and impossible for some other players. There is no reason why a company should just cater to you, instead of these other groups, unless you are a huge whale, and can outpay everyone else.
Blizzard catered to its base players who were not mmorpg player, they made the game simple so they could transition. Thats why every game who has tried ro follow that model have failed It was a fluke ... lol
Minecraft has proven your thought incorrect. 240 million+ profits in 2012 alone on a ugly game with hardcore death penalty and challenging game play...
challenging game play is the future of mmorpgs. the era have of hand holding is over.
Four problems in your reasoning:
1. Minecraft can be played in builder mode so you can choose weather you want to just build things or actually challenge yourself.
2. Minecraft has a difficulty selection when you start the game.
3. Minecraft can be played a single player game.
3. In order to show that 1, 2 and 3 don't matter you need data showing that vast majority of people prefer the most hardcore mode possible. Until you can present such data your argument doesn't hold water.
Additionally - there are always exceptions to the rule. Minecraft was potentially a fluke, much like WoW.
what are you talking about survivor easy mode is all drop on death... 1, 2 ,3 mean nothing the point is a challenging game with hardcore penalties has made more money them most mmorpgs.
IS it a fluke time will tell as developers change course... hand holding mmorpgs are unsuccessful. These easy mode mmorpgs are what the wii U is to ps4/xbox1.
Hell believe what you need to. in 5 years reread the post lol
You can't REALLY discuss a subjective opinion. You either agree with said opinion, or you don't. That's not a discussion. It's just an OP looking for validation through the agreement of others.
Of course you can. You can state it and why. May be that does not applies to others, but certainly you can discuss them.
Here is an example.
I don't play MMORPGs to socialize. I like solo content in MMORPGs. I like LFD and LFR.
See ... and i am not looking for validation. I just like to express myself, and response to others who comment on my expression.
@narisseldon -- Your examples are perfectly what you said -- an expression of your opinion without looking for justification of validation from the community. But at the same time, they aren't open to discussion, nor do they lead to discussion. They are the particular facts that are 100% true to you, but may have no bearing on anyone else. BadSpock was pointing out that the OP posted his opinions as universal facts, rather than his own private opinions.
Of course they led to discussions. In fact, the existence of your post succinctly proves that point. And if you actually read these forums, my posts such as this example has sparked all sorts of discussions. True that no one can dispute the factual nature of those statements, but that is not the only path to discussion, is it?
Secondly, i have no issue with BadSpock's point. I am just questioning your point that "You can't REALLY discuss a subjective opinion."
IS it a fluke time will tell as developers change course... hand holding mmorpgs are unsuccessful. These easy mode mmorpgs are what the wii U is to ps4/xbox1.
Really?
Don't tell you think UO, EQ and Eve are more successful than WOW.
Lets be honest, If you do not have a challenge how can any victory be worth achieving. Gaming companies need to stop kneeling to the non hackers and simpletons who love to follow the dam arrow during a quest.
nah .. i think most devs have decided, as blizzard, not to cater to the 2% who would spend night and day and get into the hardest raids.
Challenge is in the eye of the beholder. The best solution i have seen is a difficulty slider.
What you think is "hard" may be trivially easy for a guild like Paragon, and impossible for some other players. There is no reason why a company should just cater to you, instead of these other groups, unless you are a huge whale, and can outpay everyone else.
Blizzard catered to its base players who were not mmorpg player, they made the game simple so they could transition. Thats why every game who has tried ro follow that model have failed It was a fluke ... lol
Minecraft has proven your thought incorrect. 240 million+ profits in 2012 alone on a ugly game with hardcore death penalty and challenging game play...
challenging game play is the future of mmorpgs. the era have of hand holding is over.
After re-toolling their product to account for 50-500k players (reasonable), instead of millions of players (not reasonable). Most are making money hand over fist.
Your idea of failed is apparently very different from my idea.
lol most are not making hand over fist.... Most games are selling their rights over to companies that are hosting and running these ftp games. Name your easy to play games that are making cash over fist?
I'll name the f2p games since thats what your meaning I guess. If now, well WoW is the big one. for f2p LOTRO, ddo, eq (always made money, now is f2p too), eq2, age of wushu... just off the top of my head. I'm sure others can name many more.
So yes most are making money hand over fist.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I definitely do not think the mmorg industry is healthy IMO. 3 obvious indicators 1) the market leader is nearly a decade old, 2) the genre has been diluted by the introduction of so many elements from so many genres that the games struggle to maintain distinct.
3) (personal). Game players generally get blown away by things that are bigger and better. Wow blew me away in the early days with its size and grandeur. There has been no mmorg that has taken this to the next level yet I.e Bigger (world size/no portals ) with the same quality or better gameplay. This failure includes blizzard who have consumed large amounts of investment as greedy profits.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
You can't REALLY discuss a subjective opinion. You either agree with said opinion, or you don't. That's not a discussion. It's just an OP looking for validation through the agreement of others.
Of course you can. You can state it and why. May be that does not applies to others, but certainly you can discuss them.
Here is an example.
I don't play MMORPGs to socialize. I like solo content in MMORPGs. I like LFD and LFR.
See ... and i am not looking for validation. I just like to express myself, and response to others who comment on my expression.
@narisseldon -- Your examples are perfectly what you said -- an expression of your opinion without looking for justification of validation from the community. But at the same time, they aren't open to discussion, nor do they lead to discussion. They are the particular facts that are 100% true to you, but may have no bearing on anyone else. BadSpock was pointing out that the OP posted his opinions as universal facts, rather than his own private opinions.
Of course they led to discussions. In fact, the existence of your post succinctly proves that point. And if you actually read these forums, my posts such as this example has sparked all sorts of discussions. True that no one can dispute the factual nature of those statements, but that is not the only path to discussion, is it?
Secondly, i have no issue with BadSpock's point. I am just questioning your point that "You can't REALLY discuss a subjective opinion."
Wow. My post addressed none of your examples, nor did they prompt my response. The facts that you like solo content in MMORPGs and that you don't play MMORPGs to socialize are pretty much stand alone statements. They do not prompt any form of meaningful discussion. Anything I'm likely to say in response to those isn't likely to change your opinion. About all that can be done with that is 'agree/disagree'. Might as well make it into a poll.
Let's give BadSpock the credit for his statements, shall we? He made the post you attributed to me. I agree with his statement, but he said it.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Comments
The feeling of being completely engrossed in an mmo is the funnest experience that gaming can give you. But everyone is so used to 'grab it, play it, dump it' playstyles, they have either never experienced a good mmo or have forgotten what it was like. Now what i mean by good MMORPG is the above mentioned indie-released games. The ones that are forged with great consideration and passion and developers who love what they do, rather than pumping out a factory-made piece of crap.
Players truly don't understand the idea of an MMORPG anymore. As you mentioned as well, the LIVING BREATHING WORLD. Those don't exist anymore! It's all quest quest gear gear money money pvp pvp. That is literally end-game and leveling experience of about every mmo now. I remember the days of Entertainer in SWG. Who would have thought talking to guildmates, granting buffs to pvpers through music, and just listening to the tunes jamming out with your holographic band, would be fun? But it was amazing.
Is this nostalgia? HELL NO, tell me to put my rose-colored glasses on and i want to flip. No other game, since that game has shut down has offered anything close to that. Anyone new-era gamers remember going into your guild headquarters or your house and looking at all the cool collectibles on the wall? Nope. Nothing like that exists anymore. It's simply not the same. If there were games like this i would definitely play them. No questions, and this has fueled my ambition for Archeage as well. You can sail, own a home, have a guild, you can LIVE in your character in the game.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Because the idea is old and no longer attractive? Because players don't care?
Personally i don't play games for the "living breathing world". I do that for fun. The market is just responding to what players want.
No one says MMORPG needs to be build upon the same idea forever.
I think the problem is leadership. Most gaming companies are stuck in a mind frame that if they make a game easy for players more players will stick around. I think that ideology is outdated and the flood of failed games has proven it.
Lets be honest, If you do not have a challenge how can any victory be worth achieving. Gaming companies need to stop kneeling to the non hackers and simpletons who love to follow the dam arrow during a quest.
But hell what do I know let these gaming companies lose millions more.
HomePage/Gaming Blog - http://dalewj.com . MMORPGer - Current game: http://AfterWorld.ru .
Author of Diaries of Afterworld- http://www.jconsult.com/afterworld and the Outside Sci-Fi series- http://www.jconsult.com/outside
stopped reading after you called EA a tiny company
EA was founded at about 1982 or sth, and it god some huge games on the early computers already by the 90s.
basically every gamer knew electronic arts
also, before "ultima online" there were plenty of normal ultima parts, which actually made the series big, running for about 18 years till you started playing.
so. the "real reason" why YOU think the industry is the way it is now..... with your half knowledge.
ps: no matter how often you say it. ultima online used an old system they did NOT invent, and WoW surely did not copy UO, but every running mmo those days. exactly what everyone hoped they would do, give us a real mmo in a world of warcraft, having the quality they showed us in diablo and warcraft.
that's the way how you produce good games, take what gamers like, add new stuff to make em like it even more. love it or leave it, that's the just way it is.
"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid and i did it anyway!"
The Real Reason the MMO "Industry" is the way it is now.
It's players.
To OP:
1. Please learn to separate your personal opinion from actual facts.
2. When you say something is fact - make sure it is actually a fact and not a made up fact or a false fact.
3. Hearsay is not a fact - i.e. just because someone told you A and you didn't verify what they said from other sources it is NOT a fact.
You can't say just because A is followed by B eventually there will be a Z. That is logical fallacy. Generally by the time people are 26 they tend to be more humble about how much they believe they understand.
I agree. Your post isn't nostalgia. Calling it nostalgia would be an insult to the word nostalgia.
I'll give you one thing, though. You are correct that you and the OP are a lot alike.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
nah .. i think most devs have decided, as blizzard, not to cater to the 2% who would spend night and day and get into the hardest raids.
Challenge is in the eye of the beholder. The best solution i have seen is a difficulty slider.
What you think is "hard" may be trivially easy for a guild like Paragon, and impossible for some other players. There is no reason why a company should just cater to you, instead of these other groups, unless you are a huge whale, and can outpay everyone else.
Blizzard catered to its base players who were not mmorpg player, they made the game simple so they could transition. Thats why every game who has tried ro follow that model have failed It was a fluke ... lol
Minecraft has proven your thought incorrect. 240 million+ profits in 2012 alone on a ugly game with hardcore death penalty and challenging game play...
challenging game play is the future of mmorpgs. the era have of hand holding is over.
After re-toolling their product to account for 50-500k players (reasonable), instead of millions of players (not reasonable). Most are making money hand over fist.
Your idea of failed is apparently very different from my idea.
Four problems in your reasoning:
1. Minecraft can be played in builder mode so you can choose weather you want to just build things or actually challenge yourself.
2. Minecraft has a difficulty selection when you start the game.
3. Minecraft can be played a single player game.
3. In order to show that 1, 2 and 3 don't matter you need data showing that vast majority of people prefer the most hardcore mode possible. Until you can present such data your argument doesn't hold water.
Additionally - there are always exceptions to the rule. Minecraft was potentially a fluke, much like WoW.
Yeah .. a good choice, since a) it is a much bigger market, and b) it makes non-MMORPG players notice MMORPGs. Blizz has done MMORPG a great service.
Personally, please do not classify me as a MMORPG player either. I play all kinds of games.
lol most are not making hand over fist.... Most games are selling their rights over to companies that are hosting and running these ftp games. Name your easy to play games that are making cash over fist?
Maple Story?
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
@narisseldon -- Your examples are perfectly what you said -- an expression of your opinion without looking for justification of validation from the community. But at the same time, they aren't open to discussion, nor do they lead to discussion. They are the particular facts that are 100% true to you, but may have no bearing on anyone else. BadSpock was pointing out that the OP posted his opinions as universal facts, rather than his own private opinions.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
what are you talking about survivor easy mode is all drop on death... 1, 2 ,3 mean nothing the point is a challenging game with hardcore penalties has made more money them most mmorpgs.
IS it a fluke time will tell as developers change course... hand holding mmorpgs are unsuccessful. These easy mode mmorpgs are what the wii U is to ps4/xbox1.
Hell believe what you need to. in 5 years reread the post lol
Of course they led to discussions. In fact, the existence of your post succinctly proves that point. And if you actually read these forums, my posts such as this example has sparked all sorts of discussions. True that no one can dispute the factual nature of those statements, but that is not the only path to discussion, is it?
Secondly, i have no issue with BadSpock's point. I am just questioning your point that "You can't REALLY discuss a subjective opinion."
Really?
Don't tell you think UO, EQ and Eve are more successful than WOW.
I dont know anything about maple story but ill take your word for it lol
I'll name the f2p games since thats what your meaning I guess. If now, well WoW is the big one. for f2p LOTRO, ddo, eq (always made money, now is f2p too), eq2, age of wushu... just off the top of my head. I'm sure others can name many more.
So yes most are making money hand over fist.
3) (personal). Game players generally get blown away by things that are bigger and better. Wow blew me away in the early days with its size and grandeur. There has been no mmorg that has taken this to the next level yet I.e Bigger (world size/no portals ) with the same quality or better gameplay. This failure includes blizzard who have consumed large amounts of investment as greedy profits.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Wow. My post addressed none of your examples, nor did they prompt my response. The facts that you like solo content in MMORPGs and that you don't play MMORPGs to socialize are pretty much stand alone statements. They do not prompt any form of meaningful discussion. Anything I'm likely to say in response to those isn't likely to change your opinion. About all that can be done with that is 'agree/disagree'. Might as well make it into a poll.
Let's give BadSpock the credit for his statements, shall we? He made the post you attributed to me. I agree with his statement, but he said it.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.