The survey had close to 1000 respondents. That is a sufficient large sample. A problem is that it only includes people that are already searching for the game on the web and no one who might casually discover it later on, but it is as representative as it could be under this circumstances. It may not be perfect, but it is certainly saying something.
a year ago, in may 2012, ESO was posting the first screenshots
look back at the old ESO forum postings - gamers were commenting ESO looked terrible
you think its a fair poll?
comparing ESO with a year of screenshots/videos
vs a mmo recently revealed?
What an epic blanket statement fail - Gamers said it looks terrible, after a year of pics they like it now.
And EQN is at a disadvantage because it hasn't had a year's worth of pictures to show people? Oookkkkk What kind of logic are you operating under? That in a year's time people who hate cartoony childish art style are going to be won over? it's not fair because ESO got the head start!! ..........
Hey guess what, we've been looking at Wildstar pics for a year plus and it still looks as cartoony and childish as ever.
It's all subjective. I think EQN graphics / style looks rich, detailed and well animated. I can see it working wonderfully with SoEmote. ESO to me looks very generic. It doesnt even look as good as Skyrim.
But more to the point, if graphics are the deciding factor for you, and you like ESOs graphics but not EQN.... why not just play the former? Even if you want a sandbox instead, there are plenty coming out with more realistic graphics (Archage and Pathfinder). Play one of those instead. Why compain constantly about every single game not catering to you personally?
I dont see it being an issue for SoE commercially at any rate. Well done stylised graphics have done very well in both video games and movies.
This is a follow up thread to the one about the recant survey that was done about EQNs art style.: (link)
I was recently told, that:
"... People in the MMO community, especially this forum, never agree on anything. You could carry this same scenario over to the ESO forum, where you hear people complaining about the exact opposite thing. ... Your argument assumes there is some magic solution that creates a 90% or 100% satisfaction rate and I just do not see that, and have not seen that, in the MMO community. In todays climate just topping 50% in your favor is a boon. ..."
I thought this can be tested. So I made a poll on ESO forum so see what the people over there think about ESOs art style: (link)
As you see there is great consent on the realistic and gritty look of ESOs art style. If you ignore the people that wanted waffles (This includes myself, as I didn't what to influence the poll.) you see, that:
88,9% (88 people) like the art style as it is or wanted it to be even grittier.
8,1% (8 people) wanted it to be more stylized and cartoony
3% (3 people) are on the fence or don't care.
So there apparently is a "magic solution" that makes 88,9% of the users in this forum agree upon some art style.
If you compare this to the survey: (link) you see that in the last question:
47% (436 people) like the art style as it is.
40% (385 people) want it to be grittier or more realistic.
13% (132 people) dislike the art style for other reasons.
0% (2 people) want it to be even more cartoony.
You have to consider that there where 955 people involved in this survey until now. This is quite a large sample.
The survey correspondents quite well to a poll we had on this forum a while ago: (link)
41,8% (162 people) liked the art style.
37,1% (144 people) didn't like it.
21,1% (82 people) where undecided or did not care.
- - -
The art style is an important feature. I agree that gameplay is more important then graphics, but that does not mean that graphics don't matter. The art style sets the mood for the rest of the game, especially for the storytelling. You can't have serious storytelling with Mario and Princess Peach.
If you ask me, I believe that the dissent is actually even higher. I think many people only voted in favour of the art style because they don't what this discussion to overshadow an otherwise great game. I don't think there are that many people that honestly think, that this Kerra was what EQN needed.
Just look at the very first post in the poll about the art style of EQN:
"The amount of crying farce towards the graphics is hilarious, the game has some really ground breaking ideas while still inside the EQ universe. It was never meant to be an exact copy of the original EQ or EQ2 but instead to be a brand new game. ...
Why should EQ Next be thrown out? It is a new take on the same genre, albeit with different graphics. So much hate over something that actually looks and sounds like something fun to play."
Note that he doesn't even say the art style was good or that it suits EQN. He wants people to look beyond the fact that the art style is "different" and to remember it is still "something fun to play" He just doesn't like the whole discussion because he thinks it could damage the game. I don't want to say that wanting to defend EQN is not a noble cause, but to say it is beyond any doubts is not helping anyone.
Nobody wants to talk down EQN. I am the first to defend its awesome features, the Voxelfarm engine, StoryBricks and above all the attempt to revive the sandbox mmo and bring it to the mainstream, but as a loyal fan you have so spell things out that you believe to be wrong about the game you like.
Because this is an unbiased source?
Ohh wait, its not.
You just wasted hours of your life failing at statistics.
Haha, great link. Good to discuss with someone who brings an interesting perspective to the table.
I think however, that link is more a case of deviant aesthetic. Eg Monty Python's opening credits has a little baby in a pram and some gran 'oodles & aaahs' over it, and peers in at it, promptly the baby opens it's mouth and wolfs down the hapless victim. (it = he/she).
I don't think EQ:N is at all looking to do that. It's really about ensuring players are friendly, diverse and can choose a persona avatar look that matches their mood or fantasy of taste. The avatars are much less stepping into a world, and much more choosing to be anything you want, I'd say? And that is a very attractive device for players along with finding any class and mixing it up any which way. I'd say that's the:
AESTHETIC FUNCTION of the Style > Cartoony.
PRACTICAL FUNCTION of Style > X
This is as said by some: Easier for animations, longevity, scaling better.
The take-home of Style vs Realism is: Graphics (technical standards) are not nearly as significant as people think they are. And to attract the biggest market you choose a style that the most people are comfortable with eg in this case Cartoons? Is my guess.
And the practical application of the graphics in pvp or smooth animations in combat make a massive difference on the feel and fun of the gameplay. So again it's more gameplay > graphics from what I can make out when people mention it worked for WOW. It did.
But, I'd argue as per Age Of Conan, that having decapitations and blood, warrants a VERY DIFFERENT CHOICE OF STYLE. Cartoony is x1 possible choice. Conan went for higher realism or at least demanding tech performance could have had a mixed style of realism with style of darker fantasy???
Eg
Slaine:
Slampig perhaps stated more directly the point of what I said, though I might phrase it differently.
I'll agree they likely chose the style for EQ:N based more on the flexibility the style offered than anything else.
Mine was a response mostly to the notion that realism gives greater grit or allows for a darker narrative, which was rather why I had the like to the TVTropes crapsaccharine page. It's a counterpoint noting that an overly fluffy world, or even an overly cartoon and stylized one, can carry quite a punch when they want to toss a moody or dark moment into the mix.
In some regards it's arguably got more heft than if you play to a gritty world setting, as it possesses a stark contrast to the other elements of the setting rather than getting washed out.
Alternatively, it's also worth noting that the concept of establishing any given atmosphere really does not require a specific technique and can benefit from varying degrees of stylization.
For example, Fairytale Fights mixes cutesy with gore to make a relatively psychotic medium of crazy fairytale people chopping one another into bits.
Nightmare Before Christmas had a completely stylized design that catered to a dark atmosphere without being simply scary or angry.
However, games utilizing a style in the game general feel as Nightmare, such as Don't Starve, can still provide a tense atmosphere to the game as you scuttle about trying to survive.
Limbo would be another example of a game lauded for it's atmosphere, and it too was a pretty dramatically stylized game.
Cycling back, I do understand and agree with you that EQ:N is not aiming for being a dark or moody world, more so one that's open to choice and flexibility. My point in my own diatribe is in response to several previous posts as well as line from the original post, noting that one should not write off the art style of EQ:N as it's flexibility can allow for some pretty stark and dramatic moments as much as it is capable of making a happy tone.
Perhaps a decent example comes from WoW for this with Darkshire. A large section of the game is dominated by ranges of colors and pretty cartoony mild design. When that same design is utilized to create a dark and moody atmosphere, they are granted the ability to put a bit of emphasis on the expressive details of the setting and that goes a long way in giving it a mood that contrasts highly to the otherwise more bright and docile environments.
EQ:N should be perfectly capable of offering up such places and experiences not in spite of, but alongside and partially because of the graphics chosen. As it ties to the notion of crapsaccharine, it's has the hidden potential as well to sucker punch people with such moments.
EDIT: To clarify I'm not particularly disagreeing with you, just clarifying what I had meant as my first post was kinda short on detail.
It's subjective subject... lol, so this is exactly the right way to approach art. Agree, Stylized can be very "dark" (without abusing that word too much!) but I think we agree:
>"Cycling back, I do understand and agree with you that EQ:N is not aiming for being a dark or moody world, more so one that's open to choice and flexibility."
They're gunning for choice and flexibility (and performance of course is the other half of the discussion). This probably does tie in with attracting widest interests and again that ties in very much with F2P model as well as Sandbox build'em-up gameplay.
I actually think the female character for eg is exceptionally well drawn. I'm not so keen on the teddy-bear lion however. But combat is going for fun and responsiveness and clarity eg effects telling what's what when stuff is flying around the screen. It comes down to tastes and seems this thread has concluded wow, lol etc use this aesthetic to hugely popular appeal.
I absolutely love the current graphics and I do not think the graphics style needs to be changed. The style the have chosen i feel sets the game apart. Eso is too real world, I enjoy fantasy based games artwork and style.
The style in magic the gathering has digital painting and some prefer "gritty" I am glad that the developers have a sense to maintain the art in a fantasy style
I guess it has to do with the target audiences. TESO looks a lot like Elder Scrolls the single player games, so it appeals to the core audience. For Everquest... it looks totally different than the old Everquests, which never were cartoony, exxagerated. So whatever the mass may think of it, EQ:N surely did irritate the core Everquest gamers with that choice.
I will wait and see both. I am going to play both anyways and I prefer to make my final say when I have played the games.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
This is a follow up thread to the one about the recant survey that was done about EQNs art style.: (link)
I was recently told, that:
"... People in the MMO community, especially this forum, never agree on anything. You could carry this same scenario over to the ESO forum, where you hear people complaining about the exact opposite thing. ... Your argument assumes there is some magic solution that creates a 90% or 100% satisfaction rate and I just do not see that, and have not seen that, in the MMO community. In todays climate just topping 50% in your favor is a boon. ..."
I thought this can be tested. So I made a poll on ESO forum so see what the people over there think about ESOs art style: (link)
As you see there is great consent on the realistic and gritty look of ESOs art style. If you ignore the people that wanted waffles (This includes myself, as I didn't what to influence the poll.) you see, that:
88,9% (88 people) like the art style as it is or wanted it to be even grittier.
8,1% (8 people) wanted it to be more stylized and cartoony
3% (3 people) are on the fence or don't care.
So there apparently is a "magic solution" that makes 88,9% of the users in this forum agree upon some art style.
If you compare this to the survey: (link) you see that in the last question:
47% (436 people) like the art style as it is.
40% (385 people) want it to be grittier or more realistic.
13% (132 people) dislike the art style for other reasons.
0% (2 people) want it to be even more cartoony.
You have to consider that there where 955 people involved in this survey until now. This is quite a large sample.
The survey correspondents quite well to a poll we had on this forum a while ago: (link)
41,8% (162 people) liked the art style.
37,1% (144 people) didn't like it.
21,1% (82 people) where undecided or did not care.
- - -
The art style is an important feature. I agree that gameplay is more important then graphics, but that does not mean that graphics don't matter. The art style sets the mood for the rest of the game, especially for the storytelling. You can't have serious storytelling with Mario and Princess Peach.
If you ask me, I believe that the dissent is actually even higher. I think many people only voted in favour of the art style because they don't what this discussion to overshadow an otherwise great game. I don't think there are that many people that honestly think, that this Kerra was what EQN needed.
Just look at the very first post in the poll about the art style of EQN:
"The amount of crying farce towards the graphics is hilarious, the game has some really ground breaking ideas while still inside the EQ universe. It was never meant to be an exact copy of the original EQ or EQ2 but instead to be a brand new game. ...
Why should EQ Next be thrown out? It is a new take on the same genre, albeit with different graphics. So much hate over something that actually looks and sounds like something fun to play."
Note that he doesn't even say the art style was good or that it suits EQN. He wants people to look beyond the fact that the art style is "different" and to remember it is still "something fun to play" He just doesn't like the whole discussion because he thinks it could damage the game. I don't want to say that wanting to defend EQN is not a noble cause, but to say it is beyond any doubts is not helping anyone.
Nobody wants to talk down EQN. I am the first to defend its awesome features, the Voxelfarm engine, StoryBricks and above all the attempt to revive the sandbox mmo and bring it to the mainstream, but as a loyal fan you have so spell things out that you believe to be wrong about the game you like.
Because this is an unbiased source?
Ohh wait, its not.
You just wasted hours of your life failing at statistics.
The graphics for EQN are a polarizing issue, more so than not just ESO but many other games. Hell I don't think I've EVER seen so many complaints about a particular art style for any game, ever.
I'm not sure why anyone would waste the 5 seconds of their life trying to debate this.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
Thank you for posting this article. It describes very well what is wrong with the art style. It describes a movie trope that you see in pretty much every horror film: You take some thing that is cute and harmless and then add something sinister or violent to it and thereby it suddenly becomes very creepy.
In the article this applies to a setting. If applied to a character it rather corresponds to the article Grotesque Cute.
Like in almost every other MMORPG the central activity in EQN will be performing heroic deeds by wading thought waves and waves of enemies. The problem is that if a character does this who looks realistic and gritty, it actually looks heroic but if a cute and cartoony character does the same it causes an Art Style Dissonance and tends to look creepy.
If there was a Muppet remake of Kill Bill, it could either be goofy and non violent or very very creepy, but you can't make a heroic character out of Miss Piggy who chops of peoples heads with a katana.
This may be a very extreme example but the cartoony art style certainly makes EQN deviate in this direction. In the reveal video of EQN you pretty much see the cast from The Beauty and the Beast who massacre a tribe of kobolds by violently smashing and burning them. They even ridicule the dead by throwing the bodies down a stair. The fact that it is comic violence without any blood and gore makes it a bit less obvious.
I don't think SOE wants to set up EQN to have an overall creepy atmosphere. They are not making Limbo Online. are they?
Three reasons why a dev studio might look at a stylized art style over a realistic one
A: Low end machines, it is a lot easier to make a stylized art style scale-able then a realistic one. The human mind have a lot easier to "buy" something that does not look real.
B: Emotions are easier to get across when the face does not need to follow a 100% strict bone structure.
C: Scale, again it is a lot easier to play with the scale of the world when things are not hyper realistic.
...
A: That are actually three arguments. You say that the graphics age better, they are cheaper to make and they avoid the "uncanny valley".
If you look at the market for graphics cards, you see that it has slowed down a lot since the early 2000s. Back then graphics where making big leaps forward every year, but now the hunt for more polygons is coming to an end. The designers now can do pretty much everything they want on an average machine and the customers are not that easily impressed just by better graphics. So rapidly aging graphics aren't that much of a problem anymore.
The whole issue is in no way about graphics performance anyway. ESOs graphics don't have more polygons then EQNs I would rather say they have less. To make a rather realistic looking character is not much of a deal anymore. I wouldn't even say it needs much more manpower.
As for the Uncanny Valley, I don't think ESO is going near it either. Its graphics are still very stylized. What EQN is doing is not avoiding the uncanny valley its uncanny valley phobia. To avoid something you don't have to run full speed in the opposite direction.
B: With the oversized eyes it is easier to spot emotes from afar, but it backfires if someone is making these over the top faces right in front of you.
I love SOEmote since I'm a roleplayer myself. But in spite of that I don't think it is so important that the whole art style should be forced by it. Furthermore I think that this art style is pure poison to any type of roleplaying, because many people just can't relate to this kind of cartoony characters.
C: This is true. It is not hard to get away with something unrealistic if the whole game wasn't realistic in the first place. But that means to soft-pedal it to not belie expectations later on.
All the points you make fall into a certain type of argument. They are functional arguments. They all talk about the function the art style has. It does this and it avoids that and it works well with certain technologies.
I don't say this kind of argument doesn't have its place, but you probably now how a machine looks like that was build solely too meet functional needs. You end up with something that looks like a concrete factory or a Fiat Panda. I just noticed what a suiting analogy The Fiat Panda is for WoW. It is a panda, it sold 11 mil. units and no one will grief about it once it has hit the scrapyard.
If you want to avoid something like that, you need also to consider artistic arguments. Artistic arguments would be about what people feel if they look at the art, what the art style resembles and what associations it arouses. Artistic argument sometimes seem kind of weak because in the end they all boil down to opinions, but you can't do without them.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard The TESO poll question is so obviously biased it's not even funny.
"What do you think about ESOs art style?" What do you think is biased about that? I honestly tried to keep the poll as unbiased as possible. I even listed five arguments for a more stylized art style.
My second post clarifies a lot of what you responded with, Sengi.
Also it's notable that you can see examples on the article I listed that stand with very little to no art style dissonance, even when they are of the specifically animated variety.
The video game series of the Walking Dead for example uses a Borderlands style drawn aesthetic that sets it apart from realism, yet ti still establishes itself as an exceptionally serious piece.
Or in part the Dragon Quest series. Where it has friendly calm moments, it also has some pretty stark moments. That's a condition that only breaks one's sense of immersion or establishes dissonance if you were not accepting that it's an inherent part of the world and narrative.
Another notable point being any classic SNES RPG really. Everyone had big heads back then, yet we still had some great and immersive titles.
Psychonauts used a highly stylized direction to it's advantage when Double Fine went to make it a generally psychotic adventure. Apparently to good effect too considering people seemed to love the game.
Ragnarok Online, World of Warcraft, Legend of Zelda, Team Fortress, and even the game series that waves about the 'grimdark' banner Warhammer.
These are all titles just in games alone that retain a distinctively stylized appearance and they utilize it not simply for sweetness, but to evoke some very expressive and serious or gritty moments.
There's are numerous examples from cartoons, anime, cg, etc that follow the same conditions without resulting in a dissonance from their subject.
What you are doing is trying to imply that EQ:N is trying to establish their style and behavior as something of a Muppets side (making an argument using hyperbole), even though they state right out the door that you are fighting goblins, orcs, etc.
When it's fairly obvious that they aren't making a simply happy go lucky world, but one that's built with conflict as a backdrop, you have to expect that a certain amount of contrasting or darker elements are going to be inherent.
To pretend otherwise seems rather dishonest.
EDIT: Also to note, Art dissonance itself isn't always a terrible thing if handled properly, as there are intentional ways to use it for emphasis that doesn't drive one overboard. Valkyria Chronicles for example is a very anime styled game with a hand drawn looking shadow effect and character features, and it handles itself in a serious fashion for what it is. Similar in a sense to manga such as Full Metal Alchemist.
That also makes me feel concerned that some of those titles listed on the dissonance page are more subjective to individual interpretation than they are actually dissonant to their theme. Like the example I just made above. Manga and anime are not averse to gore and it's actually not that abnormal to many long running series as well as within our own western comics. Having a style that mirrors these cartoons and comics, and including the more mature elements, does not make it suddenly dissonant where it is not in another medium.
That's a fault that exists in the consumer's mind in that case, as they are only going by their familiarity with the subject and quite likely missing the material that would otherwise normalize their perception of the title in question.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Your poll was in no way balanced or "fair". Basically asked if ESO fans like ESO (Skyrim) or if they would rather make it look like a completely different game for no apparent reason. Really?
It's like me going to a Mario forum and asking if they would prefer it to look like Halo. It makes no sense and leads to an obvious conclusion. Even though Mario has been around much longer and is more cartoony compared to Halo's more realistic style. Both are popular for completely different reasons and don't have to copy each other to do well.
...
I'm well aware, that the people that visit the ESO forum are mostly biased towards ESO, and the people on the EQN forum are mostly biased towards EQN. What matters is the comparison. Each of the forums is mostly visited by fans of the respective game. ESOs graphics are much more popular within ESOs fanbase then EQNs graphics are within EQNs fanbase.
The poll I made on the ESO forum was biased against ESOs graphics if anything, because in the text I was giving several reasons for more stylizes graphics, and I even said that ESO could look dated with its more realistic graphics a couple of years from now.
It wasn't just a decision between ESO and EQN. There was the option to say that the art style should be only a bit more colourful and stylized, but almost nobody wanted that. Instead 34% think the graphics are not gritty and realistic enough.
I hear only 78% of people in a Renaissance Artist forum voted that they like Hieronymus Bosch's paintings but 87% of peopel who voted in another poll that they like Sandro Bottecelli's paintings therefore we can assume the Botticelli is the more important artist and that Bosch's art is invalid and should be destroyed.
Originally posted by Drakynn I hear only 78% of people in a Renaissance Artist forum voted that they like Hieronymus Bosch's paintings but 87% of peopel who voted in another poll that they like Sandro Bottecelli's paintings therefore we can assume the Botticelli is the more important artist and that Bosch's art is invalid and should be destroyed.
Sounds fair enough
XD her derp...
Not to mention... but your poll was among "EQ current fanbase"
...maybe SoE doesn't WANT the current fanbase.. maybe they are trying to reach a new market all togeather.
I for one like the graphics.. they are like a updated WoW, (which stands the test of time VERY well)
Fortunatly this stupid poll/thread will never change a thing.. so here in a few months I can be playing EQ:L and you'll be home crying in the corner.
Millions of players play WoW or have played it and either like the cartoon graphics or don't mind it. The art style chosen for EQ Next actually favors SOE in attracting a larger player base for the game. The art style will hold up better over the games life span and won't require a top end beast of a pc to run it.
My second post clarifies a lot of what you responded with, Sengi.
Also it's notable that you can see examples on the article I listed that stand with very little to no art style dissonance, even when they are of the specifically animated variety.
The video game series of the Walking Dead for example uses a Borderlands style drawn aesthetic that sets it apart from realism, yet ti still establishes itself as an exceptionally serious piece.
...
What you are doing is trying to imply that EQ:N is trying to establish their style and behavior as something of a Muppets side (making an argument using hyperbole), even though they state right out the door that you are fighting goblins, orcs, etc.
When it's fairly obvious that they aren't making a simply happy go lucky world, but one that's built with conflict as a backdrop, you have to expect that a certain amount of contrasting or darker elements are going to be inherent.
To pretend otherwise seems rather dishonest.
EDIT: Also to note, Art dissonance itself isn't always a terrible thing if handled properly, as there are intentional ways to use it for emphasis that doesn't drive one overboard. Valkyria Chronicles for example is a very anime styled game with a hand drawn looking shadow effect and character features, and it handles itself in a serious fashion for what it is. Similar in a sense to manga such as Full Metal Alchemist.
That also makes me feel concerned that some of those titles listed on the dissonance page are more subjective to individual interpretation than they are actually dissonant to their theme. Like the example I just made above. Manga and anime are not averse to gore and it's actually not that abnormal to many long running series as well as within our own western comics. Having a style that mirrors these cartoons and comics, and including the more mature elements, does not make it suddenly dissonant where it is not in another medium.
That's a fault that exists in the consumer's mind in that case, as they are only going by their familiarity with the subject and quite likely missing the material that would otherwise normalize their perception of the title in question.
Yes of course, if EQN wouldn't be about conflict, there would be no problem with the art style. The cartoony style works well in a game that has no dark or violent elements.
I think you central point is, that a cartoony art style can work as some sort of contrasting background to a dark and serious storytelling and can makes it look even darker.
I believe this is not true. Cartoony art makes a sinister story not look dark but creepy instead. A comic character that is truly evil will seem similar to Chucky and cause an Art Style Dissonance. The only way to work around this is to tone down the evil character until he becomes a Disney villain.
The problem is that even in a Crapsaccharine World, a comic character is still kind of cute, and therefore you can't get around a Art Style Dissonance if there is fighting and violence.
The art style from The walking Dead is stylized, but it doesn't look cute and it isn't associated with Disney cartoons, therefore it causes no problems when it comes to violence. Stylized does not equal cartoony.
You mentioned Chromo Trigger and the classic Final Fantasy games in your other post. I don't believe these games where great because of their art style but despite of it. At least the super deformed characters weren't helping the story in any way.
I believe that especially western cartoon characters don't help any type of story but a very goofy one. Actually they don't even work that well in a Crapsaccharine World, because it is hard to relate to them.
The Crapsaccharine World is not liked to a certain art style. There are live-action movies that have this kind of plot, The Truman Show and The Stepford Wives for example.
Yes, an Art Style Dissonance can be use effectively, either in comedy or in horror, but EQN doesn't belong in one of these genres. It may have funny and sinister moments, but an Art Style Dissonance always applies to the game as a whole.
The Crapsaccharine World is very uncommon in the fantasy genre. Both The Lord of the Rings and D&D have a very strict separation of good and evil. The elves are almost always good and the orks are "chaotic evil" by definition. If you stir this up to much in a classical fantasy world, you end up with some kind of Terry Pratchett story.
I think the problem with those surveys is that the EQ Next survey was posted in areas that would draw a wider net of people but the Elder Scrolls Online forum was posted on their very own forums.
who would be hanging around a game's forums long before the release? The die hard fans of course.
Whereas the EQ Next poll might get people who have a passing interest in the game but not so "die hard".
Essentially, are you polling the same demographic of people within their respective games?
That is true, the survey had much more and probably more diverse respondents then the poll on the ESO forum. That is the reason I also added the poll from the EQN forum, As you see the results are quite similar to the ones in the survey.
EQNs release is even further away. I don't see why there should be less die hard fans around here. If you don't believe it, you could make a new poll right now to test it again.
You're mixing way too much opinion into this argument, and writing off a large aspect of stylized graphics, as you're predefining the entirety of EQ:N's art style, somewhat inaccurately at that, and just rolling with it.
You're misconstruing what an art style, even that of EQ:N, can do to accentuate any given element, and pretending it's always at odds instead. If you're not going to talk without bias, then all you can spout is opinion and not a valid argument about the art style.
All you did is repeat yourself, and I'm not about to repeat myself to continue an argument into pointlessness. Done that too many times with axehilt and others.
EDIT: Bit of a copout for me to say that, but it very much is the case. You make multiple misnomers like implying the style is specifically 'cute'. You also leap onto the notion of art dissonance immediately, and I find that highly inaccurate as well. For example, go back and watch any classic animated movies, including Disney. Over time the titles have become dumbed down and more friendly, but the style used did not dictate how serious or harsh a story the crew could produce and to the people who saw them there wasn't such a concept of dissonance.
What's happening is a blending of issues and arguments to complicate one. The art styles you claim aren't capable of such things without dissonance I disagree with because I can look at any classic cartoon I grew up watching and see it was more or less 'normal'. It's only because we divorced the concepts over time due to concern over what we present our youth that it even became a thing for cartoony to not possess a serious quality.
Consequently, I can't agree, as I am familiar with such cartoony styles used in some relatively moody settings without any kind of qualms being raised in my mind.
If that is something you are unfamiliar with and consequently have a hard time coming to grip with, it can only be remarked as an opinion.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Originally posted by Sengi Originally posted by SovrathI think the problem with those surveys is that the EQ Next survey was posted in areas that would draw a wider net of people but the Elder Scrolls Online forum was posted on their very own forums.who would be hanging around a game's forums long before the release? The die hard fans of course.Whereas the EQ Next poll might get people who have a passing interest in the game but not so "die hard".Essentially, are you polling the same demographic of people within their respective games?
That is true, the survey had much more and probably more diverse respondents then the poll on the ESO forum. That is the reason I also added the poll from the EQN forum, As you see the results are quite similar to the ones in the survey.
EQNs release is even further away. I don't see why there should be less die hard fans around here. If you don't believe it, you could make a new poll right now to test it again.
There's no reason to think another poll in the same forums would yield different results. You still don't know who answered your poll though. Were they young people? Old people? Do they usually play MMORPGs? There are a lot of unknowns with the respondents. There's even a big question about whether or not the people who frequent those forums are representative of anyone outside the group, "People who frequent forums".
You need a lot more information about the people who are responding to your polls before you can draw any valid conclusions from them. You're basically guessing. Which is fine, but there is a lot of evidence in other games that the artistic style, while important, is not going to decide the success or failure of either EQN or ESO.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Using the data taken from the MMORPG.com forums in any kind of statistical breakdown is a complete joke. It is almost as bad as using Xfire. We are the .000000000000000000001% of people who actually play MMOs and most of the people here are jaded people who hate everything. Personally I think both of them look great and could not say I prefer one art style over the other.
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What an epic blanket statement fail - Gamers said it looks terrible, after a year of pics they like it now.
And EQN is at a disadvantage because it hasn't had a year's worth of pictures to show people? Oookkkkk What kind of logic are you operating under? That in a year's time people who hate cartoony childish art style are going to be won over? it's not fair because ESO got the head start!! ..........
Hey guess what, we've been looking at Wildstar pics for a year plus and it still looks as cartoony and childish as ever.
It's all subjective. I think EQN graphics / style looks rich, detailed and well animated. I can see it working wonderfully with SoEmote. ESO to me looks very generic. It doesnt even look as good as Skyrim.
But more to the point, if graphics are the deciding factor for you, and you like ESOs graphics but not EQN.... why not just play the former? Even if you want a sandbox instead, there are plenty coming out with more realistic graphics (Archage and Pathfinder). Play one of those instead. Why compain constantly about every single game not catering to you personally?
I dont see it being an issue for SoE commercially at any rate. Well done stylised graphics have done very well in both video games and movies.
Because this is an unbiased source?
Ohh wait, its not.
You just wasted hours of your life failing at statistics.
ESO has the better art style. That being said, I'm living a good life and have no sense/need for the escapism that EQN provides.
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It's subjective subject... lol, so this is exactly the right way to approach art. Agree, Stylized can be very "dark" (without abusing that word too much!) but I think we agree:
>"Cycling back, I do understand and agree with you that EQ:N is not aiming for being a dark or moody world, more so one that's open to choice and flexibility."
They're gunning for choice and flexibility (and performance of course is the other half of the discussion). This probably does tie in with attracting widest interests and again that ties in very much with F2P model as well as Sandbox build'em-up gameplay.
I actually think the female character for eg is exceptionally well drawn. I'm not so keen on the teddy-bear lion however. But combat is going for fun and responsiveness and clarity eg effects telling what's what when stuff is flying around the screen. It comes down to tastes and seems this thread has concluded wow, lol etc use this aesthetic to hugely popular appeal.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I absolutely love the current graphics and I do not think the graphics style needs to be changed. The style the have chosen i feel sets the game apart. Eso is too real world, I enjoy fantasy based games artwork and style.
The style in magic the gathering has digital painting and some prefer "gritty" I am glad that the developers have a sense to maintain the art in a fantasy style
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/activity/1308
Akroma is beautiful "cartoonish" yes but awesome
Same thing with my avatar my friend has drawn for my dungeons and dragons wizard
I guess it has to do with the target audiences. TESO looks a lot like Elder Scrolls the single player games, so it appeals to the core audience. For Everquest... it looks totally different than the old Everquests, which never were cartoony, exxagerated. So whatever the mass may think of it, EQ:N surely did irritate the core Everquest gamers with that choice.
I will wait and see both. I am going to play both anyways and I prefer to make my final say when I have played the games.
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And what is your more reliable source?
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The graphics for EQN are a polarizing issue, more so than not just ESO but many other games. Hell I don't think I've EVER seen so many complaints about a particular art style for any game, ever.
I'm not sure why anyone would waste the 5 seconds of their life trying to debate this.
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Thank you for posting this article. It describes very well what is wrong with the art style. It describes a movie trope that you see in pretty much every horror film: You take some thing that is cute and harmless and then add something sinister or violent to it and thereby it suddenly becomes very creepy.
In the article this applies to a setting. If applied to a character it rather corresponds to the article Grotesque Cute.
Like in almost every other MMORPG the central activity in EQN will be performing heroic deeds by wading thought waves and waves of enemies. The problem is that if a character does this who looks realistic and gritty, it actually looks heroic but if a cute and cartoony character does the same it causes an Art Style Dissonance and tends to look creepy.
If there was a Muppet remake of Kill Bill, it could either be goofy and non violent or very very creepy, but you can't make a heroic character out of Miss Piggy who chops of peoples heads with a katana.
This may be a very extreme example but the cartoony art style certainly makes EQN deviate in this direction. In the reveal video of EQN you pretty much see the cast from The Beauty and the Beast who massacre a tribe of kobolds by violently smashing and burning them. They even ridicule the dead by throwing the bodies down a stair. The fact that it is comic violence without any blood and gore makes it a bit less obvious.
I don't think SOE wants to set up EQN to have an overall creepy atmosphere. They are not making Limbo Online. are they?
A: That are actually three arguments. You say that the graphics age better, they are cheaper to make and they avoid the "uncanny valley".
If you look at the market for graphics cards, you see that it has slowed down a lot since the early 2000s. Back then graphics where making big leaps forward every year, but now the hunt for more polygons is coming to an end. The designers now can do pretty much everything they want on an average machine and the customers are not that easily impressed just by better graphics. So rapidly aging graphics aren't that much of a problem anymore.
The whole issue is in no way about graphics performance anyway. ESOs graphics don't have more polygons then EQNs I would rather say they have less. To make a rather realistic looking character is not much of a deal anymore. I wouldn't even say it needs much more manpower.
As for the Uncanny Valley, I don't think ESO is going near it either. Its graphics are still very stylized. What EQN is doing is not avoiding the uncanny valley its uncanny valley phobia. To avoid something you don't have to run full speed in the opposite direction.
B: With the oversized eyes it is easier to spot emotes from afar, but it backfires if someone is making these over the top faces right in front of you.
I love SOEmote since I'm a roleplayer myself. But in spite of that I don't think it is so important that the whole art style should be forced by it. Furthermore I think that this art style is pure poison to any type of roleplaying, because many people just can't relate to this kind of cartoony characters.
C: This is true. It is not hard to get away with something unrealistic if the whole game wasn't realistic in the first place. But that means to soft-pedal it to not belie expectations later on.
All the points you make fall into a certain type of argument. They are functional arguments. They all talk about the function the art style has. It does this and it avoids that and it works well with certain technologies.
I don't say this kind of argument doesn't have its place, but you probably now how a machine looks like that was build solely too meet functional needs. You end up with something that looks like a concrete factory or a Fiat Panda. I just noticed what a suiting analogy The Fiat Panda is for WoW. It is a panda, it sold 11 mil. units and no one will grief about it once it has hit the scrapyard.
If you want to avoid something like that, you need also to consider artistic arguments. Artistic arguments would be about what people feel if they look at the art, what the art style resembles and what associations it arouses. Artistic argument sometimes seem kind of weak because in the end they all boil down to opinions, but you can't do without them.
"What do you think about ESOs art style?" What do you think is biased about that? I honestly tried to keep the poll as unbiased as possible. I even listed five arguments for a more stylized art style.
My second post clarifies a lot of what you responded with, Sengi.
Also it's notable that you can see examples on the article I listed that stand with very little to no art style dissonance, even when they are of the specifically animated variety.
The video game series of the Walking Dead for example uses a Borderlands style drawn aesthetic that sets it apart from realism, yet ti still establishes itself as an exceptionally serious piece.
Or in part the Dragon Quest series. Where it has friendly calm moments, it also has some pretty stark moments. That's a condition that only breaks one's sense of immersion or establishes dissonance if you were not accepting that it's an inherent part of the world and narrative.
Another notable point being any classic SNES RPG really. Everyone had big heads back then, yet we still had some great and immersive titles.
Psychonauts used a highly stylized direction to it's advantage when Double Fine went to make it a generally psychotic adventure. Apparently to good effect too considering people seemed to love the game.
Ragnarok Online, World of Warcraft, Legend of Zelda, Team Fortress, and even the game series that waves about the 'grimdark' banner Warhammer.
These are all titles just in games alone that retain a distinctively stylized appearance and they utilize it not simply for sweetness, but to evoke some very expressive and serious or gritty moments.
There's are numerous examples from cartoons, anime, cg, etc that follow the same conditions without resulting in a dissonance from their subject.
What you are doing is trying to imply that EQ:N is trying to establish their style and behavior as something of a Muppets side (making an argument using hyperbole), even though they state right out the door that you are fighting goblins, orcs, etc.
When it's fairly obvious that they aren't making a simply happy go lucky world, but one that's built with conflict as a backdrop, you have to expect that a certain amount of contrasting or darker elements are going to be inherent.
To pretend otherwise seems rather dishonest.
EDIT: Also to note, Art dissonance itself isn't always a terrible thing if handled properly, as there are intentional ways to use it for emphasis that doesn't drive one overboard. Valkyria Chronicles for example is a very anime styled game with a hand drawn looking shadow effect and character features, and it handles itself in a serious fashion for what it is. Similar in a sense to manga such as Full Metal Alchemist.
That also makes me feel concerned that some of those titles listed on the dissonance page are more subjective to individual interpretation than they are actually dissonant to their theme. Like the example I just made above. Manga and anime are not averse to gore and it's actually not that abnormal to many long running series as well as within our own western comics. Having a style that mirrors these cartoons and comics, and including the more mature elements, does not make it suddenly dissonant where it is not in another medium.
That's a fault that exists in the consumer's mind in that case, as they are only going by their familiarity with the subject and quite likely missing the material that would otherwise normalize their perception of the title in question.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I'm well aware, that the people that visit the ESO forum are mostly biased towards ESO, and the people on the EQN forum are mostly biased towards EQN. What matters is the comparison. Each of the forums is mostly visited by fans of the respective game. ESOs graphics are much more popular within ESOs fanbase then EQNs graphics are within EQNs fanbase.
The poll I made on the ESO forum was biased against ESOs graphics if anything, because in the text I was giving several reasons for more stylizes graphics, and I even said that ESO could look dated with its more realistic graphics a couple of years from now.
It wasn't just a decision between ESO and EQN. There was the option to say that the art style should be only a bit more colourful and stylized, but almost nobody wanted that. Instead 34% think the graphics are not gritty and realistic enough.
Sounds fair enough
XD her derp...
Not to mention... but your poll was among "EQ current fanbase"
...maybe SoE doesn't WANT the current fanbase.. maybe they are trying to reach a new market all togeather.
I for one like the graphics.. they are like a updated WoW, (which stands the test of time VERY well)
Fortunatly this stupid poll/thread will never change a thing.. so here in a few months I can be playing EQ:L and you'll be home crying in the corner.
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Millions of players play WoW or have played it and either like the cartoon graphics or don't mind it. The art style chosen for EQ Next actually favors SOE in attracting a larger player base for the game. The art style will hold up better over the games life span and won't require a top end beast of a pc to run it.
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Yes of course, if EQN wouldn't be about conflict, there would be no problem with the art style. The cartoony style works well in a game that has no dark or violent elements.
I think you central point is, that a cartoony art style can work as some sort of contrasting background to a dark and serious storytelling and can makes it look even darker.
I believe this is not true. Cartoony art makes a sinister story not look dark but creepy instead. A comic character that is truly evil will seem similar to Chucky and cause an Art Style Dissonance. The only way to work around this is to tone down the evil character until he becomes a Disney villain.
The problem is that even in a Crapsaccharine World, a comic character is still kind of cute, and therefore you can't get around a Art Style Dissonance if there is fighting and violence.
The art style from The walking Dead is stylized, but it doesn't look cute and it isn't associated with Disney cartoons, therefore it causes no problems when it comes to violence. Stylized does not equal cartoony.
You mentioned Chromo Trigger and the classic Final Fantasy games in your other post. I don't believe these games where great because of their art style but despite of it. At least the super deformed characters weren't helping the story in any way.
I believe that especially western cartoon characters don't help any type of story but a very goofy one. Actually they don't even work that well in a Crapsaccharine World, because it is hard to relate to them.
The Crapsaccharine World is not liked to a certain art style. There are live-action movies that have this kind of plot, The Truman Show and The Stepford Wives for example.
Yes, an Art Style Dissonance can be use effectively, either in comedy or in horror, but EQN doesn't belong in one of these genres. It may have funny and sinister moments, but an Art Style Dissonance always applies to the game as a whole.
The Crapsaccharine World is very uncommon in the fantasy genre. Both The Lord of the Rings and D&D have a very strict separation of good and evil. The elves are almost always good and the orks are "chaotic evil" by definition. If you stir this up to much in a classical fantasy world, you end up with some kind of Terry Pratchett story.
That is true, the survey had much more and probably more diverse respondents then the poll on the ESO forum. That is the reason I also added the poll from the EQN forum, As you see the results are quite similar to the ones in the survey.
EQNs release is even further away. I don't see why there should be less die hard fans around here. If you don't believe it, you could make a new poll right now to test it again.
You're mixing way too much opinion into this argument, and writing off a large aspect of stylized graphics, as you're predefining the entirety of EQ:N's art style, somewhat inaccurately at that, and just rolling with it.
You're misconstruing what an art style, even that of EQ:N, can do to accentuate any given element, and pretending it's always at odds instead. If you're not going to talk without bias, then all you can spout is opinion and not a valid argument about the art style.
All you did is repeat yourself, and I'm not about to repeat myself to continue an argument into pointlessness. Done that too many times with axehilt and others.
EDIT: Bit of a copout for me to say that, but it very much is the case. You make multiple misnomers like implying the style is specifically 'cute'. You also leap onto the notion of art dissonance immediately, and I find that highly inaccurate as well. For example, go back and watch any classic animated movies, including Disney. Over time the titles have become dumbed down and more friendly, but the style used did not dictate how serious or harsh a story the crew could produce and to the people who saw them there wasn't such a concept of dissonance.
What's happening is a blending of issues and arguments to complicate one. The art styles you claim aren't capable of such things without dissonance I disagree with because I can look at any classic cartoon I grew up watching and see it was more or less 'normal'. It's only because we divorced the concepts over time due to concern over what we present our youth that it even became a thing for cartoony to not possess a serious quality.
Consequently, I can't agree, as I am familiar with such cartoony styles used in some relatively moody settings without any kind of qualms being raised in my mind.
If that is something you are unfamiliar with and consequently have a hard time coming to grip with, it can only be remarked as an opinion.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
That is true, the survey had much more and probably more diverse respondents then the poll on the ESO forum. That is the reason I also added the poll from the EQN forum, As you see the results are quite similar to the ones in the survey.
EQNs release is even further away. I don't see why there should be less die hard fans around here. If you don't believe it, you could make a new poll right now to test it again.
There's no reason to think another poll in the same forums would yield different results. You still don't know who answered your poll though. Were they young people? Old people? Do they usually play MMORPGs? There are a lot of unknowns with the respondents. There's even a big question about whether or not the people who frequent those forums are representative of anyone outside the group, "People who frequent forums".
You need a lot more information about the people who are responding to your polls before you can draw any valid conclusions from them. You're basically guessing. Which is fine, but there is a lot of evidence in other games that the artistic style, while important, is not going to decide the success or failure of either EQN or ESO.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Using the data taken from the MMORPG.com forums in any kind of statistical breakdown is a complete joke. It is almost as bad as using Xfire. We are the .000000000000000000001% of people who actually play MMOs and most of the people here are jaded people who hate everything. Personally I think both of them look great and could not say I prefer one art style over the other.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.