Gamespot is doing an interesting series exploring the psychology of F2P and it's success that includes cash shops so is relevant here. Two parts so far.
I have no issues with how whales spend there money as long as its all done legally and with no psychological hooks developed by masters of there craft who have studied for the last hundred or so years in how to successfully manipulate a humans emotions, please do not be so naive as to think you, i or anybody is not capable of being manipulated beyond our will - simply step into your local supermarket and realise they spend millions and millions each year on making sure you spend the maximum from the moment you enter.
The finale for this way of thinking just doesnt bear thinking about it - imagine evercrack (what people called everquest when it came out due it its unintentional addictive qualities for some which resulted in lost jobs, lost rerlationships and ultiamtely some lives) - if they can master that forumla and add cash shops you'd be amazed at what some people would spend and do to get the cash to spend to feed the force fed psychological need.
I have no issues with how whales spend there money as long as its all done legally and with no psychological hooks developed by masters of there craft who have studied for the last hundred or so years in how to successfully manipulate a humans emotions, please do not be so naive as to think you, i or anybody is not capable of being manipulated beyond our will - simply step into your local supermarket and realise they spend millions and millions each year on making sure you spend the maximum from the moment you enter.
And yet a majority of mmo players do not pay.
Personally i do not. If there is such a strong schemes that i cannot resist, i have yet to encounter it. For me, it is quite simple just to ignore the cash shop and enjoy the free content.
When it is not possible to do so (pay wall, too much ads, or what-not), i move onto the next game. There is always a next game.
Oh i agree. I don't have a problem with them. In fact, they are great to extract money from whales to pay for the games.
I can totally ignore cash shops, which i do in every F2P games i play.
There is a reason why they are called pay to win cash shops.
Do you have any idea what that could be ?
Since i play pve, and solo a lot of times, p2w does not affect me. There is no "winning" in pve for me.
There is a candy store and you dont get any candys and you win ?
It affects every second.
uh? You are telling me how i am playing my games?
Bottomline, i play F2P games .. i do not use the cash shop. It does not impact my enjoyment. Don't tell me you think you know what i enjoy more than i do.
I dont need to tell it to you ,you are telling it to us just fine.
Great .. in that case, you agree that cash shop don't affect me since i just ignore them and enjoy the free content.
When you ignore the cash shop ,thats the moment when it starts to affect you.
Its just like that candy store,it doesnt affect you since you just ignore it and enjoy the free content.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014. **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
Originally posted by Helleri I'll bite...what are you talking about when you refer to whales?
You have a lot of catching up to do. MMO "whales" have been discussed ad infinitum. There are some stats (which I do not find to be credible) that suggest a select few "rich" guys spend tons of $ on cash shops; and everyone else spends nothing.
(blatant disregard for fact or reality omitted)
Helleri, there are about 10-20% of the regular player base that actually spend money in a free to play game. Maybe a tenth of that group is spending a tremendous amount, sometimes more than the other 9-19% combined. That tiny segment of big spenders is commonly referred to as "whales."
Something to keep in mind about that segment is that they exist independent of business model, something many here don't seem to want to acknowledge.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That is a strange definition of affecting. Typically things you ignore do not affect you. It's the ones you can't ignore that do affect you.
I ignore the rain when I'm inside and was planning on being inside anyway, actually all weather. I ignore people walking by my window. I ignore the drone of the lights.
Most things that people ignore do not affect them.
These sentances are totally contractictory, "When you ignore the cash shop ,thats the moment when it starts to affect you.
Its just like that candy store,it doesnt affect you since you just ignore it and enjoy the free content."
So you ignore the candy store because it doesn't affect you, yet as soon as you ignore it it affects you. Weird.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I have no issues with how whales spend there money as long as its all done legally and with no psychological hooks developed by masters of there craft who have studied for the last hundred or so years in how to successfully manipulate a humans emotions, please do not be so naive as to think you, i or anybody is not capable of being manipulated beyond our will - simply step into your local supermarket and realise they spend millions and millions each year on making sure you spend the maximum from the moment you enter.
And yet a majority of mmo players do not pay.
Personally i do not. If there is such a strong schemes that i cannot resist, i have yet to encounter it. For me, it is quite simple just to ignore the cash shop and enjoy the free content.
When it is not possible to do so (pay wall, too much ads, or what-not), i move onto the next game. There is always a next game.
Me neither, but sadly just as some suffer from mental health issues, ocd's, intro/extravertness not all of us are equal and its the minority, whom are not likely to be whales that get hooked in by the free part and will then part with cash they should be spending on food, clothes, rent. ie - get to max level, realise they need x, y and z and dont want to have wasted there time so part with the cash. i find the whole system to be abhorrent as its simply designed to extract cash from either the rich or the weak, the rest like you and me escape unscathed.
That is a strange definition of affecting. Typically things you ignore do not affect you. It's the ones you can't ignore that do affect you.
I ignore the rain when I'm inside and was planning on being inside anyway, actually all weather. I ignore people walking by my window. I ignore the drone of the lights.
Most things that people ignore do not affect them.
These sentances are totally contractictory, "When you ignore the cash shop ,thats the moment when it starts to affect you.
Its just like that candy store,it doesnt affect you since you just ignore it and enjoy the free content."
So you ignore the candy store because it doesn't affect you, yet as soon as you ignore it it affects you. Weird.
Yeah ... so i don't understand his logic.
How is something i ignore affect me? He has a very strange definition of "affect".
Let me be even more clear. Since i ignore the cash shop, my enjoyment is the same whether they have one item, 100 items, or 1000 items. My enjoyment is the same whether they price at $1, $5 or $1000.
I think it is very hard to argue whatever they put in the cash shop affect me, unless one redefines the word "affect".
That is a strange definition of affecting. Typically things you ignore do not affect you. It's the ones you can't ignore that do affect you.
I ignore the rain when I'm inside and was planning on being inside anyway, actually all weather. I ignore people walking by my window. I ignore the drone of the lights.
Most things that people ignore do not affect them.
These sentances are totally contractictory, "When you ignore the cash shop ,thats the moment when it starts to affect you.
Its just like that candy store,it doesnt affect you since you just ignore it and enjoy the free content."
So you ignore the candy store because it doesn't affect you, yet as soon as you ignore it it affects you. Weird.
That means you never got any candys and never will ?
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014. **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
I wish WoW would keep their shop as it is, but I am a firm fan of subscriptions. Having said that it is a shame because all of these games are going to have some sort of shop and I have a gut feeling that even if there is a sub that you would assume gives you full access there will be nickle and diming.
Sucks.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
mostly off topic, but whale is a term from gambling, used by casino's to mean a very rich sucker who is easily parted from there money without them realising it so they come back to be fleeced time and again (casino concierge etc..).
And i know this sounds like a bait post or a flame but i simply bring it up as i'm sure when Raph Koster used it he was using it in ththe same way, In so much as i felt he is as disgusted by the industries direction of late as some of the posters on this site are (myself included)
What do you have against those who would pay thousands of dollar for a virtual sword. It is their money, and it is a free market. No one holds a gun to their head.
In fact, that is also why i have little sympathy for whales in casinos. No one forces them to go into one.
There is a lot of things more important in this world then money. It's comes down to what you are willing to support or what you are willing to cast a blind eye to.
Some like to make an honest living and some like want to take everything they can get.
For me personally, I don't like taking advantage of people and I don't like seeing people take advantaged of. So many of these F2P games are nothing but scams run by dirt bags who would sell their own mother's. I think the same of a lot of governments running casino's including my own government.
I will not support things I don't believe in or I find distasteful even if I find them entertaining. That is as much the freedom of my choice as it is the freedom of choice for the dork who is spending his rent money on a virtual sword or on a hand of 21 in the casino.
I believe that personal freedom of choice should end when you have innocent little ones going hungry and being neglected because their parent or parents are stupid moron's.
That is a strange definition of affecting. Typically things you ignore do not affect you. It's the ones you can't ignore that do affect you.
I ignore the rain when I'm inside and was planning on being inside anyway, actually all weather. I ignore people walking by my window. I ignore the drone of the lights.
Most things that people ignore do not affect them.
These sentances are totally contractictory, "When you ignore the cash shop ,thats the moment when it starts to affect you.
Its just like that candy store,it doesnt affect you since you just ignore it and enjoy the free content."
So you ignore the candy store because it doesn't affect you, yet as soon as you ignore it it affects you. Weird.
That means you never got any candys and never will ?
Ok. But that doesn't mean the lack of it affects you.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I have no issues with how whales spend there money as long as its all done legally and with no psychological hooks developed by masters of there craft who have studied for the last hundred or so years in how to successfully manipulate a humans emotions, please do not be so naive as to think you, i or anybody is not capable of being manipulated beyond our will - simply step into your local supermarket and realise they spend millions and millions each year on making sure you spend the maximum from the moment you enter.
And yet a majority of mmo players do not pay.
Personally i do not. If there is such a strong schemes that i cannot resist, i have yet to encounter it. For me, it is quite simple just to ignore the cash shop and enjoy the free content.
When it is not possible to do so (pay wall, too much ads, or what-not), i move onto the next game. There is always a next game.
Me neither, but sadly just as some suffer from mental health issues, ocd's, intro/extravertness not all of us are equal and its the minority, whom are not likely to be whales that get hooked in by the free part and will then part with cash they should be spending on food, clothes, rent. ie - get to max level, realise they need x, y and z and dont want to have wasted there time so part with the cash. i find the whole system to be abhorrent as its simply designed to extract cash from either the rich or the weak, the rest like you and me escape unscathed.
Why is it abhorrent to extract cash from the rich? If someone can afford to, and pay $5000 for a virtual sword so that he can be happy for 5 min, who are we to judge? Do you find luxury goods abhorrent too? There is certainly no need for someone to buy a $1000 handbag aside from their happiness.
Now targeting the weak is a slightly different matter. I do not really have a lot of sympathy for the weak. It is no different from an alcohol who cannot control something that is obviously wrong and is destroying their life. May be the govt should ask MMORPG put a label on the game box but aside from that i don't want them to ban f2p, just like i don't want a ban on nice wines just because some people can't control themselves and drink a whole bottle instead of savoring the flavor of a sip.
That is a strange definition of affecting. Typically things you ignore do not affect you. It's the ones you can't ignore that do affect you.
I ignore the rain when I'm inside and was planning on being inside anyway, actually all weather. I ignore people walking by my window. I ignore the drone of the lights.
Most things that people ignore do not affect them.
These sentances are totally contractictory, "When you ignore the cash shop ,thats the moment when it starts to affect you.
Its just like that candy store,it doesnt affect you since you just ignore it and enjoy the free content."
So you ignore the candy store because it doesn't affect you, yet as soon as you ignore it it affects you. Weird.
That means you never got any candys and never will ?
Ok. But that doesn't mean the lack of it affects you.
Sure ,but in MMO´s instead of candys they are selling win.
Which means pretty sad things.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014. **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
There is a lot of things more important in this world then money. It's comes down to what you are willing to support or what you are willing to cast a blind eye to.
Yes. And games, or how to pay for one is not one of those important things for me.
And i doubt i am "supporting" anything when i just play some of the f2p games for free.
Now targeting the weak is a slightly different matter. I do not really have a lot of sympathy for the weak. It is no different from an alcohol who cannot control something that is obviously wrong and is destroying their life. May be the govt should ask MMORPG put a label on the game box but aside from that i don't want them to ban f2p, just like i don't want a ban on nice wines just because some people can't control themselves and drink a whole bottle instead of savoring the flavor of a sip.
I find this way of thinking abhorrrent and i'll deem to reply and then ignore you as is my right.
Alchoholics do not choose to be so, nor drugs addicts or anyone with an addictive personality disorder, no one grows up and when asked by there school teacher 'what do you want to be when you grow up' answers an addict. They are weak minded for sure, but its an illness, somethign out of there control - next you'll be criticising cancer sufferers for being physically weak as your body would surely kick the **** out of those invading cancer cells. Shame on you for your narrow mindedness.
Now targeting the weak is a slightly different matter. I do not really have a lot of sympathy for the weak. It is no different from an alcohol who cannot control something that is obviously wrong and is destroying their life. May be the govt should ask MMORPG put a label on the game box but aside from that i don't want them to ban f2p, just like i don't want a ban on nice wines just because some people can't control themselves and drink a whole bottle instead of savoring the flavor of a sip.
I find this way of thinking abhorrrent and i'll deem to reply and then ignore you as is my right.
Alchoholics do not choose to be so, nor drugs addicts or anyone with an addictive personality disorder, no one grows up and when asked by there school teacher 'what do you want to be when you grow up' answers an addict. They are weak minded for sure, but its an illness, somethign out of there control - next you'll be criticising cancer sufferers for being physically weak as your body would surely kick the **** out of those invading cancer cells. Shame on you for your narrow mindedness.
Actually you are right and your are wrong.
You are right that no one chooses to be addicted. Current information shows addiction is the result of disregulated receptors which no one chooses to happen. Some are born thay way, most are born with the potential to disregulate, others can become disregulated due to actions/thoughts... ACtually the current research shows that most will not even become addicted (eg. only 20% of the populations is estimaged to have disregulated or potentially disreglated opioid receptors - mind you 20% is a huge number). Almost everyone can be addicted to alcohol since it affects such a huge number of receptors.
You are wrong about the addictive personality though. There is no such thing. That was passed around over a decade ago and has been shown to be completely false. There are people with multiple disregulated receptors and there are people that are not addicted but abuse many things. They do not have an addicted personality.
edit -once it reaches that point of disregulation, if it was not there to start with. It's really no different than any other similar condition, type II diabetes, clinical depressions, bipolar.... all disregulated receptor problems.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Thank you for the informative post, i am in no way an authority on the subject and should have stated that these are my personal opinions, i will go and read further about the points you brought up as i find them to be very interesting.
A quick caveat, whilst they are only my opinions they come from working with many addicts over the passed few years as a volunteer drugs and alcohol out reach worker and if theres one common denominator amongst all the addicts i have met is the frustration they feel over not being able to stop doing something they want to stop doing - hence why i feel they do not have what i have - the ability to choose and to make a reasoned choice.
I said this wasnt meant to be a bait post when i originally posted in this thread despite knowing i was l;ikely to get a post along the lines of the one i complained about so i'll gladly bow out as some people lack of empathy is enough to drive me to drink :-)
The whole myth of the whale keeping the game afloat is just stupid.
Look at the largest retail outlets in the world. Are any of them focused on getting 1 or 2 % of their customers to spend millions ?
No...all of them are about getting millions to spend a bit. That is how f2p does it. The "whale " is just an added bonus.
Hmm that is a totally different situation. A retail oufit normally doesn't offer their wares for free. Therefore every single person who buys something from is their customer.
If they did offer things free or a good chunk free, it might be a different story.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
EQN is F2P with a cash shop. SOE has already stated that.
Gamespot is doing an interesting series exploring the psychology of F2P and it's success that includes cash shops so is relevant here. Two parts so far.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px74uw4ExN4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV0IALUrllY
Thanks for clarifying. I guess the age of the whales marches on.
I have no issues with how whales spend there money as long as its all done legally and with no psychological hooks developed by masters of there craft who have studied for the last hundred or so years in how to successfully manipulate a humans emotions, please do not be so naive as to think you, i or anybody is not capable of being manipulated beyond our will - simply step into your local supermarket and realise they spend millions and millions each year on making sure you spend the maximum from the moment you enter.
The finale for this way of thinking just doesnt bear thinking about it - imagine evercrack (what people called everquest when it came out due it its unintentional addictive qualities for some which resulted in lost jobs, lost rerlationships and ultiamtely some lives) - if they can master that forumla and add cash shops you'd be amazed at what some people would spend and do to get the cash to spend to feed the force fed psychological need.
And yet a majority of mmo players do not pay.
Personally i do not. If there is such a strong schemes that i cannot resist, i have yet to encounter it. For me, it is quite simple just to ignore the cash shop and enjoy the free content.
When it is not possible to do so (pay wall, too much ads, or what-not), i move onto the next game. There is always a next game.
Since when is Tuesday a direction?
When you ignore the cash shop ,thats the moment when it starts to affect you.
Its just like that candy store,it doesnt affect you since you just ignore it and enjoy the free content.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
Helleri, there are about 10-20% of the regular player base that actually spend money in a free to play game. Maybe a tenth of that group is spending a tremendous amount, sometimes more than the other 9-19% combined. That tiny segment of big spenders is commonly referred to as "whales."
Something to keep in mind about that segment is that they exist independent of business model, something many here don't seem to want to acknowledge.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That is a strange definition of affecting. Typically things you ignore do not affect you. It's the ones you can't ignore that do affect you.
I ignore the rain when I'm inside and was planning on being inside anyway, actually all weather. I ignore people walking by my window. I ignore the drone of the lights.
Most things that people ignore do not affect them.
These sentances are totally contractictory, "When you ignore the cash shop ,thats the moment when it starts to affect you.
Its just like that candy store,it doesnt affect you since you just ignore it and enjoy the free content."
So you ignore the candy store because it doesn't affect you, yet as soon as you ignore it it affects you. Weird.
Me neither, but sadly just as some suffer from mental health issues, ocd's, intro/extravertness not all of us are equal and its the minority, whom are not likely to be whales that get hooked in by the free part and will then part with cash they should be spending on food, clothes, rent. ie - get to max level, realise they need x, y and z and dont want to have wasted there time so part with the cash. i find the whole system to be abhorrent as its simply designed to extract cash from either the rich or the weak, the rest like you and me escape unscathed.
Yeah ... so i don't understand his logic.
How is something i ignore affect me? He has a very strange definition of "affect".
Let me be even more clear. Since i ignore the cash shop, my enjoyment is the same whether they have one item, 100 items, or 1000 items. My enjoyment is the same whether they price at $1, $5 or $1000.
I think it is very hard to argue whatever they put in the cash shop affect me, unless one redefines the word "affect".
That means you never got any candys and never will ?
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
I wish WoW would keep their shop as it is, but I am a firm fan of subscriptions. Having said that it is a shame because all of these games are going to have some sort of shop and I have a gut feeling that even if there is a sub that you would assume gives you full access there will be nickle and diming.
Sucks.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
There is a lot of things more important in this world then money. It's comes down to what you are willing to support or what you are willing to cast a blind eye to.
Some like to make an honest living and some like want to take everything they can get.
For me personally, I don't like taking advantage of people and I don't like seeing people take advantaged of. So many of these F2P games are nothing but scams run by dirt bags who would sell their own mother's. I think the same of a lot of governments running casino's including my own government.
I will not support things I don't believe in or I find distasteful even if I find them entertaining. That is as much the freedom of my choice as it is the freedom of choice for the dork who is spending his rent money on a virtual sword or on a hand of 21 in the casino.
I believe that personal freedom of choice should end when you have innocent little ones going hungry and being neglected because their parent or parents are stupid moron's.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Ok. But that doesn't mean the lack of it affects you.
Why is it abhorrent to extract cash from the rich? If someone can afford to, and pay $5000 for a virtual sword so that he can be happy for 5 min, who are we to judge? Do you find luxury goods abhorrent too? There is certainly no need for someone to buy a $1000 handbag aside from their happiness.
Now targeting the weak is a slightly different matter. I do not really have a lot of sympathy for the weak. It is no different from an alcohol who cannot control something that is obviously wrong and is destroying their life. May be the govt should ask MMORPG put a label on the game box but aside from that i don't want them to ban f2p, just like i don't want a ban on nice wines just because some people can't control themselves and drink a whole bottle instead of savoring the flavor of a sip.
No. That is why it does not affect me.
Sure ,but in MMO´s instead of candys they are selling win.
Which means pretty sad things.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
Not sad for me. I am having free fun ... how is that sad?
Yes. And games, or how to pay for one is not one of those important things for me.
And i doubt i am "supporting" anything when i just play some of the f2p games for free.
I find this way of thinking abhorrrent and i'll deem to reply and then ignore you as is my right.
Alchoholics do not choose to be so, nor drugs addicts or anyone with an addictive personality disorder, no one grows up and when asked by there school teacher 'what do you want to be when you grow up' answers an addict. They are weak minded for sure, but its an illness, somethign out of there control - next you'll be criticising cancer sufferers for being physically weak as your body would surely kick the **** out of those invading cancer cells. Shame on you for your narrow mindedness.
Actually you are right and your are wrong.
You are right that no one chooses to be addicted. Current information shows addiction is the result of disregulated receptors which no one chooses to happen. Some are born thay way, most are born with the potential to disregulate, others can become disregulated due to actions/thoughts... ACtually the current research shows that most will not even become addicted (eg. only 20% of the populations is estimaged to have disregulated or potentially disreglated opioid receptors - mind you 20% is a huge number). Almost everyone can be addicted to alcohol since it affects such a huge number of receptors.
You are wrong about the addictive personality though. There is no such thing. That was passed around over a decade ago and has been shown to be completely false. There are people with multiple disregulated receptors and there are people that are not addicted but abuse many things. They do not have an addicted personality.
edit -once it reaches that point of disregulation, if it was not there to start with. It's really no different than any other similar condition, type II diabetes, clinical depressions, bipolar.... all disregulated receptor problems.
The whole myth of the whale keeping the game afloat is just stupid.
Look at the largest retail outlets in the world. Are any of them focused on getting 1 or 2 % of their customers to spend millions ?
No...all of them are about getting millions to spend a bit. That is how f2p does it. The "whale " is just an added bonus.
Thank you for the informative post, i am in no way an authority on the subject and should have stated that these are my personal opinions, i will go and read further about the points you brought up as i find them to be very interesting.
A quick caveat, whilst they are only my opinions they come from working with many addicts over the passed few years as a volunteer drugs and alcohol out reach worker and if theres one common denominator amongst all the addicts i have met is the frustration they feel over not being able to stop doing something they want to stop doing - hence why i feel they do not have what i have - the ability to choose and to make a reasoned choice.
I said this wasnt meant to be a bait post when i originally posted in this thread despite knowing i was l;ikely to get a post along the lines of the one i complained about so i'll gladly bow out as some people lack of empathy is enough to drive me to drink :-)
Hmm that is a totally different situation. A retail oufit normally doesn't offer their wares for free. Therefore every single person who buys something from is their customer.
If they did offer things free or a good chunk free, it might be a different story.