What I really find amazing is the patience of so many posters in their attempts to try to explain to these content locusts, who haven't the slightest concept of what an MMORPG is supposed to deliver, or how one is to be played, the finer points of how to successfully play, and enjoy, an MMORPG. All these content locusts do is rush to end game and then once there, they do nothing but complain. Their complaints are varied but their more popular complaints range from "I'm max level, so what do I do now?" to " I'm bored there is nothing to do," and of course the one involved in this thread, "Yes there is something to do but it's too hard or its grindy." It's always some wishy-washy complaint that has nothing to do with the game and everything to do with the fact that they haven't the slightest idea of what playing in an MMORPG entails. You simply can not satisfy these people. Quit trying to convince them to stay. Let them go. I guarantee you the community will be better off for it.
Here's a clue for the clueless: An MMORPG is about community. It is about making friends and forming bonds. For the most, you will make friends and form bonds in your journey to end game. Once there, this so called gear grind is simply the mechanism that will encourage and enable you to team and enjoy those friendships and strong bonds. It is not about you, and what you want, or how fast you can get it. It is all a social exercise. That is the joy of MMORPGs.
What I really find amazing is how people like you are trying to tell others how they are playing a game the wrong way. There is no wrong way to play an MMO if the guy enjoys rushing to cap well there's nothing you can say about it, he enjoys that play style and you don't.... end of story.
I personally think that the part where you go on about community, making friends and forming bonds is B.S. Am I telling you that you have no idea how to play the game ? No, that's how you enjoy the game and that's fine with me.
He's obviously not enjoying it, since he's complaining about it. Little do you know that in coming to his defense, you are actually doing him an injustice because listening to you, he will never get it. But perhaps you fall in the same category. Perhaps you both need help. There is nothing wrong with needing help by the way. Everyone needs help at one time or another. This is your time.
Regarding your dismissal of the community aspect of my post, well this IS an MMORPG. That MMO you see there? It stands for "Massive-Multiplayer-Online." In other words, it means that the objective of the game is to share the game experience with others. It is not a single player game. If you are the anti-socail type who likes to play solo and can't, or do not want to, get along with others, well, that's what single player games are for. Now, this is not to say that you can't play an MMO any way you like, because you certainly can as long as you fork over the money. But don't come to forums complaining about the experience when you are not having fun, because there certainly is a wrong way to play in an MMORPG, and rushing to end game, only to then start complaining about a supposed dungeon token grind, is fail rule number one about how an MMORPG should be played. I don't expect you to get that though. I am fully congnizant of the fact that my pointing this out to you may be an effort in futility, but if even one person reads this, and as a result, they become enlightened, then I would have considered my effort well worth it.
What I really find amazing is the patience of so many posters in their attempts to try to explain to these content locusts, who haven't the slightest concept of what an MMORPG is supposed to deliver, or how one is to be played, the finer points of how to successfully play, and enjoy, an MMORPG. All these content locusts do is rush to end game and then once there, they do nothing but complain. Their complaints are varied but their more popular complaints range from "I'm max level, so what do I do now?" to " I'm bored there is nothing to do," and of course the one involved in this thread, "Yes there is something to do but it's too hard or its grindy." It's always some wishy-washy complaint that has nothing to do with the game and everything to do with the fact that they haven't the slightest idea of what playing in an MMORPG entails. You simply can not satisfy these people. Quit trying to convince them to stay. Let them go. I guarantee you the community will be better off for it.
Here's a clue for the clueless: An MMORPG is about community. It is about making friends and forming bonds. For the most, you will make friends and form bonds in your journey to end game. Once there, this so called gear grind is simply the mechanism that will encourage and enable you to team and enjoy those friendships and strong bonds. It is not about you, and what you want, or how fast you can get it. It is all a social exercise. That is the joy of MMORPGs.
What I really find amazing is how people like you are trying to tell others how they are playing a game the wrong way. There is no wrong way to play an MMO if the guy enjoys rushing to cap well there's nothing you can say about it, he enjoys that play style and you don't.... end of story.
I personally think that the part where you go on about community, making friends and forming bonds is B.S. Am I telling you that you have no idea how to play the game ? No, that's how you enjoy the game and that's fine with me.
He's obviously not enjoying it, since he's complaining about it. Little do you know that in coming to his defense, you are actually doing him an injustice because listening to you, he will never get it. But perhaps you fall in the same category. Perhaps you both need help. There is nothing wrong with needing help by the way. Everyone needs help at one time or another. This is your time.
Regarding your dismissal of the community aspect of my post, well this IS an MMORPG. That MMO you see there? It stands for "Massive-Multiplayer-Online." In other words, it means that the objective of the game is to share the game experience with others. It is not a single player game. If you are the anti-socail type who likes to play solo and can't, or do not want to, get along with others, well, that's what single player games are for. Now, that is not to say that you can't play an MMO, because you certainly can as long as you fork over the money. But don't come to forums complaining about the experience, when you are not having fun, because there certainly is a wrong way to play in an MMORPG, and rushing to end game is fail rule number one about how an MMORPG should be played. I don't expect you to get that though. I am fully congnizant of the fact that my pointing this out to you may be an effort in futility, but if even one person reads this, and as a result, they become enlightened, then I would have considered my effort well worth it.
I just wanted to point out here that this game is a themepark.
The developers made a conscious decision to create content that is meant to be played in a certain way. Choosing the developers planned route to endgame will be the most enjoyable.
That's just the nature of the game. Yeah you can harp on the fact that some will disregard the main storyline and fate farm the entire game...if they LIKE it then that's fine...its certainly not optimal and misses a lot of effort to make the game enjoyable by the developers.
Thing is, when someone is doing something in a themepark, and hating it...and it also happens to be in a manner in which the game wasn't designed to be played...well heaven forbid people inform the guy he is doing it wrong...because he is.
Your argument makes sense in a sandbox, where there is no developer designed path so to speak...doesn't hold true in just about every themepark....well a few have abandoned their main storyline and offered a fast path...this isn't one of those games however.
I really dislike the argument that its a mmo so everyone should be able to do anything they want and enjoy it...few games are designed as such...and when you are racing to endgame and then complaining about the games content and its endgame (especially not being able to finish endgame in its entirety without playing it ) then you are failing at the game basically.
Originally posted by Utinni The endgame of all MMO's is a gear grind. Even in open pvp games you are typically fighting over a resource that pertains to gear.
WRONG. What about DAOC? all means every game. I just named one that isn't a gear grind. What about Darkfall? Well anyways the list goes on to prove that not all MMO's endgame is a gear grind.
What I really find amazing is the patience of so many posters in their attempts to try to explain to these content locusts, who haven't the slightest concept of what an MMORPG is supposed to deliver, or how one is to be played, the finer points of how to successfully play, and enjoy, an MMORPG. All these content locusts do is rush to end game and then once there, they do nothing but complain. Their complaints are varied but their more popular complaints range from "I'm max level, so what do I do now?" to " I'm bored there is nothing to do," and of course the one involved in this thread, "Yes there is something to do but it's too hard or its grindy." It's always some wishy-washy complaint that has nothing to do with the game and everything to do with the fact that they haven't the slightest idea of what playing in an MMORPG entails. You simply can not satisfy these people. Quit trying to convince them to stay. Let them go. I guarantee you the community will be better off for it.
Here's a clue for the clueless: An MMORPG is about community. It is about making friends and forming bonds. For the most, you will make friends and form bonds in your journey to end game. Once there, this so called gear grind is simply the mechanism that will encourage and enable you to team and enjoy those friendships and strong bonds. It is not about you, and what you want, or how fast you can get it. It is all a social exercise. That is the joy of MMORPGs.
Extremely well said. To my fellow MMO players, enjoy the game and your friends. Let these solo content devourers bitch and move along.
You're missing a lot of the point I think. I've had a great deal of enjoyment playing the game and leveling and as much as I dislike token farming end-games, the point of this game is to do dungeons and group with people. If you dislike that, or think it is archaic, or weak, either design your own MMO or stop playing them entirely. It's possible you are playing the wrong genre, there a a massive amount of non-grindy games that don't subject you to grouping end-game farming that you don't seem to want to be a part of.
I knew sooner or later someone will come up with 'make your own MMO or stop them playing entirely' as if all MMOS are still following this old WOW gear treadmill formula. And what is even more ironic is that you are telling me that i am a missing a lot of points. And yes i have stopped playing FFXIV couple of days ago once i realised what i am faced with at 50 since i have no interest in crafting or gathering classes. I was really hoping there will be some variety at end game. But i won't deny that leveling experince was really best part of it all.
Yes MMOs have end game grinding for gear and stats but a lot of these same MMOS do not have 'just' gear grinding for end game.
A good MMO is one which gives players choices and not force them just to raid or quit. In my case i had no choice but to 'quit'. Deja Vu from Rift (even though Rift later on realised this and branched out itself in lot of various end game activities) and SWTOR? i certainly had one. Good luck to SE in keeping 300,000 concurrent players after free month is over.
The joke is still on you. I'm not happy with themepark treadmill games either, but when I sit down to play one I don't lie to myself about what my expectations are. There is literally not one other possible thing this game could have been at 50, you know what it's going to be within the first 5 levels. The state of the genre is not an excuse for your unsatisfaction or whining... especially in the first 3 weeks of this game.
Currently playing - FF14ARR Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
Let me correct myself, it's boring to me. Once you ride a themepark you get burnt out of it I guess. The game is good, don't get me wrong, I just can't do the rides again. 5 years ago prolly but not anymore : ( The funny thing is after I stopped playing FF, I started Darkfall UW, guess I needed a sandbox. Good luck to all FF players.
Just an fyi post for those wondering what happens after 50:
You grind a starter dungeon doing speed runs for 50 tokens a pop. the starter dungeon can take anywhere from 20 minutes to 1 hour/90 minutes (if you even finish it) depending on if people aggro mobs while the tank is speed running and gathering all the mobs to die in the boss room.
Gear costs like 375 - 1325 tokens per piece, in the end, it'll cost like 3500 tokens for a full set of armor, then 375 for each jewelry piece. You can use the gear that drops in dungeons, its like level 55, but the starter token gear is 70 I think.
You can do other things, like the 2nd dungeon, ifrit or garuda and other things BUT if you use dungeon finder, chances are the group you get won't be geared well enough for anything but the starter dungeon. I mean it really takes just one weak player to take down a 4 or 8 man pug.
Lots of players blow their LB at the wrong time, or get aoe'd and it wipes the group, and people rage quit. So as of right now a lot of players aren't geared or learned enough to beat anything but the starter dungeon.
So, unless you have a circle of 4-8 friends or a guild that is 50, you will be grinding the starter dungeon over and over for like 120+ plus times to get the tokens you need.
Good luck!
EDIT: yes ifrit and garuda can be beat with a PUG but if you are trying to farm tokens with PUGS, those harder dungeons are a bad idea right now, and for efficiencies sake you will get too many wipes, and fail and possibly not get any tokens, vs just grinding the starter dungeon.
Absolutely null surprise there.
Yoshi-P said very early on that his vision for ARR was to model it after "the standard modern theme park".
Numerous decisions he's made and systems he's described since then have illustrated he meant exactly what he said.
Now the end-game dungeon/gear grind is yet another way he's sticking to the "tried and true" (aka "the old and tired").
Hey, he's a man of his word at least!
"Please look forward to it!"
The MMO community is more and more pushing toward "less streamlined, less themepark, fewer quest-hubs, more open world, more freeform". Developers - at least the ones paying attention - have been catching on to the fact that the so-called "standard themepark setup" is unsustainable; players can simply burn through content far too fast for developers to keep up. This is particularly true when the developers are also feeling pressure to "make all the content accessible/soloable/less challenging", or face backlash from players complaining about "grind" and "leveling is too slow!", because reaching level cap took them more than a week.
So, while other developers have come to this realization and are trying to move away from it in various ways (with SOE being, perhaps, the most aggressive about it with EQN - time will tell on that, though), Yoshi-P decided to take ARR and run in the opposite direction.... straight for the heart of the "themepark" template. He's just arriving at a party that most everyone else is leaving.
The result is..... surprise of surprises... a MMO that plays/feels like yet another standard themepark MMO with all the same things people have done ad nauseum for the past 8 years-plus.... but wrapped in a slick FF skin, complete with fan service aplenty.
And before anyone asserts otherwise... yes, I've played ARR. Plenty. Through Alpha and Beta, into EA and Launch (when I could actually log in). I came over with a 1.0/Legacy character, so I was able to access lots of the high-end content right off the bat.
Originally posted by Makidian Let me correct myself, it's boring to me. Once you ride a themepark you get burnt out of it I guess. The game is good, don't get me wrong, I just can't do the rides again. 5 years ago prolly but not anymore : ( The funny thing is after I stopped playing FF, I started Darkfall UW, guess I needed a sandbox. Good luck to all FF players.
Darkfall UW is really good, I'd still be playing if paypal didn't get me banned...
Currently playing - FF14ARR Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
Just an fyi post for those wondering what happens after 50:
You grind a starter dungeon doing speed runs for 50 tokens a pop. the starter dungeon can take anywhere from 20 minutes to 1 hour/90 minutes (if you even finish it) depending on if people aggro mobs while the tank is speed running and gathering all the mobs to die in the boss room.
Gear costs like 375 - 1325 tokens per piece, in the end, it'll cost like 3500 tokens for a full set of armor, then 375 for each jewelry piece. You can use the gear that drops in dungeons, its like level 55, but the starter token gear is 70 I think.
You can do other things, like the 2nd dungeon, ifrit or garuda and other things BUT if you use dungeon finder, chances are the group you get won't be geared well enough for anything but the starter dungeon. I mean it really takes just one weak player to take down a 4 or 8 man pug.
Lots of players blow their LB at the wrong time, or get aoe'd and it wipes the group, and people rage quit. So as of right now a lot of players aren't geared or learned enough to beat anything but the starter dungeon.
So, unless you have a circle of 4-8 friends or a guild that is 50, you will be grinding the starter dungeon over and over for like 120+ plus times to get the tokens you need.
Good luck!
EDIT: yes ifrit and garuda can be beat with a PUG but if you are trying to farm tokens with PUGS, those harder dungeons are a bad idea right now, and for efficiencies sake you will get too many wipes, and fail and possibly not get any tokens, vs just grinding the starter dungeon.
Absolutely null surprise there.
Yoshi-P said very early on that his vision for ARR was to model it after "the standard modern theme park".
Numerous decisions he's made and systems he's described since then have illustrated he meant exactly what he said.
Now the end-game dungeon/gear grind is yet another way he's sticking to the "tried and true" (aka "the old and tired").
Hey, he's a man of his word at least!
"Please look forward to it!"
The MMO community is more and more pushing toward "less streamlined, less themepark, fewer quest-hubs, more open world, more freeform". Developers - at least the ones paying attention - have been catching on to the fact that the so-called "standard themepark setup" is unsustainable; players can simply burn through content far too fast for developers to keep up. This is particularly true when the developers are also feeling pressure to "make all the content accessible/soloable/less challenging", or face backlash from players complaining about "grind" and "leveling is too slow!", because reaching level cap took them more than a week.
So, while other developers have come to this realization and are trying to move away from it in various ways (with SOE being, perhaps, the most aggressive about it with EQN - time will tell on that, though), Yoshi-P decided to take ARR and run in the opposite direction.... straight for the heart of the "themepark" template.
The result is..... surprise of surprises... a MMO that plays/feels like yet another standard themepark MMO with all the same things people have done ad nauseum for the past 8 years-plus.... but wrapped in a slick FF skin, complete with fan service aplenty.
Yoshi-P is trying to crest a wave that's in the process of being abandoned by almost everyone else. He's several years too late.
And before anyone asserts otherwise... yes, I've played ARR. Plenty. Through Alpha and Beta, into EA and Launch (when I could actually log in). I came over with a 1.0/Legacy character, so I was able to access lots of the high-end content right off the bat.
Except for one thing.
There are still plenty of us who weren't done with those rides. But all the other Standard Theme parks shut down or underwent "Major renovations" and are no longer the Theme Park they once were. Now, this is the only one left under that old umbrella. This is exactly what I wanted and I don't think I am alone.
There are still plenty of us who weren't done with those rides. But all the other Standard Theme parks shut down or underwent "Major renovations" and are no longer the Theme Park they once were. Now, this is the only one left under that old umbrella. This is exactly what I wanted and I don't think I am alone.
That's fine.
The point isn't whether or not that style can be enjoyed.
The point is if that style is or isn't sustainable... at least as a sub-based MMO. MMO after MMO after MMO over the last 8+ years, has proven quite empirically that "no, it isn't".
Yoshi-P is latching on to a paradigm that's all but been proven to be no bueno. Again, at least for a MMO intended to remain sub-based, and not even reliably as F2P/Hybrid.
It's fair to say that there's a population of players who will take their time and take in all that a MMO has to offer, rather than rushing through it. I'm part of that crowd.
Sadly, it seems most others aren't, and those who are, aren't numerous enough to maintain a sustainable subscriber base.
A. I'm going to keep playing the game, I just wanted to point out to people what to expect at 50 and what a lot of players were doing. So I'm not a content locust, as I plan to stay in the game. I'm just trying to gear up for Frontlines, is there a problem with that? How Is that being a content locust?
B. My original post is truthful. This is what is actually happening. Believe it or not, but you'll see when you hit 50
C. There is harder endgame content!!!!! Just no one is geared for it now, at least in PUGs. Ok??? There are harder dungeons. But for those peeps who ding 50 they'll probably run into the situation that I did.
D. Hopefully in a couple of months people will do the token gear grind, get the level 70 gear and more and more people can do harder content instead of grinding the same dungeon over and over
E. I'm going to keep playing this game until they add Frontline and see how it turns out.
F. As for other content besides a gear grind they could add. hmmm maybe a huge level 50+ open world zone where people could do NON-INSTANCED PVE raids??? Like a big zone where you aren't locked into an 8 person party, but can take 50+ and work 1-2 hours to fight a huge dragon or something. That would allow non 50s to participate and help.
LASTLY, you need to have the basis token gear or you will get killed too easily on Ifrit and Garuda. If 1 person dies on those bosses because of low hp, chances are they will die often and become a liability, and you need all 8 guys to beat those bosses if you are in a PUG.
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
A. I'm going to keep playing the game, I just wanted to point out to people what to expect at 50 and what a lot of players were doing. So I'm not a content locust, as I plan to stay in the game. I'm just trying to gear up for Frontlines, is there a problem with that? How Is that being a content locust?
B. My original post is truthful. This is what is actually happening. Believe it or not, but you'll see when you hit 50
C. There is harder endgame content!!!!! Just no one is geared for it now, at least in PUGs. Ok??? There are harder dungeons. But for those peeps who ding 50 they'll probably run into the situation that I did.
D. Hopefully in a couple of months people will do the token gear grind, get the level 70 gear and more and more people can do harder content instead of grinding the same dungeon over and over
E. I'm going to keep playing this game until they add Frontline and see how it turns out.
F. As for other content besides a gear grind they could add. hmmm maybe a huge level 50+ open world zone where people could do NON-INSTANCED PVE raids??? Like a big zone where you aren't locked into an 8 person party, but can take 50+ and work 1-2 hours to fight a huge dragon or something. That would allow non 50s to participate and help.
LASTLY, you need to have the basis token gear or you will get killed too easily on Ifrit and Garuda. If 1 person dies on those bosses because of low hp, chances are they will die often and become a liability, and you need all 8 guys to beat those bosses if you are in a PUG.
I'm hoping the tokens aren't a permanent trend in the game's design, but I don't have a problem with it if it's a gate while we wait for additional RNG gear content to be released.
Currently playing - FF14ARR Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
when I said to a tank to move to avoid damage he was like :since when tank need to avoid damage.I was like :oh dam we all wipe!we wiped and didn't act finish the dungeon.people are so used to wow static just avoid what's on the floor they can not comprehend the fact will have to keep agro in another manner.
You're missing a lot of the point I think. I've had a great deal of enjoyment playing the game and leveling and as much as I dislike token farming end-games, the point of this game is to do dungeons and group with people. If you dislike that, or think it is archaic, or weak, either design your own MMO or stop playing them entirely. It's possible you are playing the wrong genre, there a a massive amount of non-grindy games that don't subject you to grouping end-game farming that you don't seem to want to be a part of.
I knew sooner or later someone will come up with 'make your own MMO or stop them playing entirely' as if all MMOS are still following this old WOW gear treadmill formula. And what is even more ironic is that you are telling me that i am a missing a lot of points. And yes i have stopped playing FFXIV couple of days ago once i realised what i am faced with at 50 since i have no interest in crafting or gathering classes. I was really hoping there will be some variety at end game. But i won't deny that leveling experince was really best part of it all.
Yes MMOs have end game grinding for gear and stats but a lot of these same MMOS do not have 'just' gear grinding for end game.
A good MMO is one which gives players choices and not force them just to raid or quit. In my case i had no choice but to 'quit'. Deja Vu from Rift (even though Rift later on realised this and branched out itself in lot of various end game activities) and SWTOR? i certainly had one. Good luck to SE in keeping 300,000 concurrent players after free month is over.
The joke is still on you. I'm not happy with themepark treadmill games either, but when I sit down to play one I don't lie to myself about what my expectations are. There is literally not one other possible thing this game could have been at 50, you know what it's going to be within the first 5 levels. The state of the genre is not an excuse for your unsatisfaction or whining... especially in the first 3 weeks of this game.
Please tell me about the lies that i told myself. Why do you think i quit after leveling to 50? if i was lying to myself i would renew my sub in hope of some magic to happen or miracle patch to drop which will give a lot more choices at lvl 50.
Also 'its been 3 weeks' excuse is weak considering it is a remake of 1.0, they had a lot of oppertunities and a second chance to make sure that this time players have lot more options in terms of gameplay other than raid or die at lvl 50. They won't be getting a third chance.
If you think my concerns about the end game at lvl 50 and missed oppertunity for the second time by SE is whining then sir i can assure you that you don't know what whining really is.Its funny that you tell me that state of genre is not an excuse for my whining but somehow it is an excuse for you to come up with a lame defence like 'its just been 3 weeks'.
What puzzles me the most is that game companies learn nothing from past experinces. As if they live in their own bubble with no outside contact. They keep repeating same mistakes over and over again and then wonder why players are dropping faster than dead flies once free month is over.
A sub based game with nothing but raids for gear grinding at lvl 50 in year 2013? do i even need to tell you how this is going to end up in couple of months?
You're missing a lot of the point I think. I've had a great deal of enjoyment playing the game and leveling and as much as I dislike token farming end-games, the point of this game is to do dungeons and group with people. If you dislike that, or think it is archaic, or weak, either design your own MMO or stop playing them entirely. It's possible you are playing the wrong genre, there a a massive amount of non-grindy games that don't subject you to grouping end-game farming that you don't seem to want to be a part of.
I knew sooner or later someone will come up with 'make your own MMO or stop them playing entirely' as if all MMOS are still following this old WOW gear treadmill formula. And what is even more ironic is that you are telling me that i am a missing a lot of points. And yes i have stopped playing FFXIV couple of days ago once i realised what i am faced with at 50 since i have no interest in crafting or gathering classes. I was really hoping there will be some variety at end game. But i won't deny that leveling experince was really best part of it all.
Yes MMOs have end game grinding for gear and stats but a lot of these same MMOS do not have 'just' gear grinding for end game.
A good MMO is one which gives players choices and not force them just to raid or quit. In my case i had no choice but to 'quit'. Deja Vu from Rift (even though Rift later on realised this and branched out itself in lot of various end game activities) and SWTOR? i certainly had one. Good luck to SE in keeping 300,000 concurrent players after free month is over.
The joke is still on you. I'm not happy with themepark treadmill games either, but when I sit down to play one I don't lie to myself about what my expectations are. There is literally not one other possible thing this game could have been at 50, you know what it's going to be within the first 5 levels. The state of the genre is not an excuse for your unsatisfaction or whining... especially in the first 3 weeks of this game.
Please tell me about the lies that i told myself. Why do you think i quit after leveling to 50? if i was lying to myself i would renew my sub in hope of some magic to happen or miracle patch to drop which will give a lot more choices at lvl 50.
Also 'its been 3 weeks' excuse is weak considering it is a remake of 1.0, they had a lot of oppertunities and a second chance to make sure that this time players have lot more options in terms of gameplay other than raid or die at lvl 50. They won't be getting a third chance.
If you think my concerns about the end game at lvl 50 and missed oppertunity for the second time by SE is whining then sir i can assure you that you don't know what whining really is.Its funny that you tell me that state of genre is not an excuse for my whining but somehow it is an excuse for you to come up with a lame defence like 'its just been 3 weeks'.
What puzzles me the most is that game companies learn nothing from past experinces. As if they live in their own bubble with no outside contact. They keep repeating same mistakes over and over again and then wonder why players are dropping faster than dead flies once free month is over.
A sub based game with nothing but raids for gear grinding at lvl 50 in year 2013? do i even need to tell you how this is going to end up in couple of months?
Yeah the genre isn't going to change until something large comes and makes it change. In the mean time a 3 week old game (reboot is irrelevant) is likely to be lacking additional content, most of the planned features are a horizon away. There are more issues with these games than the tired ancient model. As I've said. I am not a fan of the gear treadmill style of design either, but I'm also trying to play the game to enjoy adventuring through the content in front of me, and not worrying about the future of it.
Currently playing - FF14ARR Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
There are still plenty of us who weren't done with those rides. But all the other Standard Theme parks shut down or underwent "Major renovations" and are no longer the Theme Park they once were. Now, this is the only one left under that old umbrella. This is exactly what I wanted and I don't think I am alone.
That's fine.
The point isn't whether or not that style can be enjoyed.
The point is if that style is or isn't sustainable... at least as a sub-based MMO. MMO after MMO after MMO over the last 8+ years, has proven quite empirically that "no, it isn't".
Yoshi-P is latching on to a paradigm that's all but been proven to be no bueno. Again, at least for a MMO intended to remain sub-based, and not even reliably as F2P/Hybrid.
It's fair to say that there's a population of players who will take their time and take in all that a MMO has to offer, rather than rushing through it. I'm part of that crowd.
Sadly, it seems most others aren't, and those who are, aren't numerous enough to maintain a sustainable subscriber base.
The only thing that has been empirically proven is that poorly designed MMOs don't deserve a subscription. This site is notorious for throwing around the term "WoW Clone" to describe failed game. But I'd say what they really failed in was to successfully clone WoW in the 1st place. Every single game that failed as a P2P game, did so because they were missing something that WoW had. Even now, WoW is changing it's direction to match the current trend and has pay the price of subscriptions for it. What has never been successfully copied was the actual formula that brought in 12M subs into the genre in the 1st place.
FF14 is not an exact copy of that formula, but it's closer to it than anything else on the market including WoW's current iteration.
Yeah the genre isn't going to change until something large comes and makes it change. In the mean time a 3 week old game (reboot is irrelevant) is likely to be lacking additional content, most of the planned features are a horizon away. There are more issues with these games than the tired ancient model. As I've said. I am not a fan of the gear treadmill style of design either, but I'm also trying to play the game to enjoy adventuring through the content in front of me, and not worrying about the future of it.
I disagree that reboot is irrelevant. Yoshida did many surveys on official forums and had tons of feedback and player data with him. So he had the oppertunity to grab pulse of the players and make a MMO which will be a lot more than just copy of WOW's gear treadmill at level cap.
The reason which kept me playing till lvl 50 is because i have said it multiple times that leveling is the best part of the game and once you hit 50 everything falls apart..reminds you of any other MMO? yeah just every other single themepark MMO in past.
I have lost account how many times i have heard that 'not worth continuing past free month' in forums, chat and in my FC. And i don't blame players for quitting because not everyone is into hamster wheel gear treadmil.
There are still plenty of us who weren't done with those rides. But all the other Standard Theme parks shut down or underwent "Major renovations" and are no longer the Theme Park they once were. Now, this is the only one left under that old umbrella. This is exactly what I wanted and I don't think I am alone.
That's fine.
The point isn't whether or not that style can be enjoyed.
The point is if that style is or isn't sustainable... at least as a sub-based MMO. MMO after MMO after MMO over the last 8+ years, has proven quite empirically that "no, it isn't".
Yoshi-P is latching on to a paradigm that's all but been proven to be no bueno. Again, at least for a MMO intended to remain sub-based, and not even reliably as F2P/Hybrid.
It's fair to say that there's a population of players who will take their time and take in all that a MMO has to offer, rather than rushing through it. I'm part of that crowd.
Sadly, it seems most others aren't, and those who are, aren't numerous enough to maintain a sustainable subscriber base.
The only thing that has been empirically proven is that poorly designed MMOs don't deserve a subscription. This site is notorious for throwing around the term "WoW Clone" to describe failed game. But I'd say what they really failed in was to successfully clone WoW in the 1st place. Every single game that failed as a P2P game, did so because they were missing something that WoW had. Even now, WoW is changing it's direction to match the current trend and has pay the price of subscriptions for it. What has never been successfully copied was the actual formula that brought in 12M subs into the genre in the 1st place.
FF14 is not an exact copy of that formula, but it's closer to it than anything else on the market including WoW's current iteration.
FFXI would like to have a word with you about that said "paradigm"
Proven to work with this IP.
Also, might want to take notice of that one game that has more sub players than most f2p games have accounts registered.
I agree, you cant make an average game anymore and expect people to pay a sub.
Also people ARE getting sick of the f2p pay model. Tides are starting to turn away from item malls and cash grabs.
Also with p2p, if you don't spend tons of money developing a game, can be very sustainable and even profitable with a very small population.
I know many are bitter that some games exist that charge a sub...it shouldn't matter that they exist...because f2p games are way better right...and there are so many out there...why even bother arguing about it on the few p2p games when there so many better games out there for free....doesn't help strengthen the argument when the f2p crowd has to protest a p2p game in order to have a shot at a good game for once.
You can tell people who didn't play FFXI long. There is sooooo much more to do at 50 than just gear grind...
Even though you're not forced to group to level like in FFXI, the OP said it, this is still a very social oriented game. At 50 the more friends you have, the better off you'll be.
There are still plenty of us who weren't done with those rides. But all the other Standard Theme parks shut down or underwent "Major renovations" and are no longer the Theme Park they once were. Now, this is the only one left under that old umbrella. This is exactly what I wanted and I don't think I am alone.
That's fine.
The point isn't whether or not that style can be enjoyed.
The point is if that style is or isn't sustainable... at least as a sub-based MMO. MMO after MMO after MMO over the last 8+ years, has proven quite empirically that "no, it isn't".
Yoshi-P is latching on to a paradigm that's all but been proven to be no bueno. Again, at least for a MMO intended to remain sub-based, and not even reliably as F2P/Hybrid.
It's fair to say that there's a population of players who will take their time and take in all that a MMO has to offer, rather than rushing through it. I'm part of that crowd.
Sadly, it seems most others aren't, and those who are, aren't numerous enough to maintain a sustainable subscriber base.
The only thing that has been empirically proven is that poorly designed MMOs don't deserve a subscription. This site is notorious for throwing around the term "WoW Clone" to describe failed game. But I'd say what they really failed in was to successfully clone WoW in the 1st place. Every single game that failed as a P2P game, did so because they were missing something that WoW had. Even now, WoW is changing it's direction to match the current trend and has pay the price of subscriptions for it. What has never been successfully copied was the actual formula that brought in 12M subs into the genre in the 1st place.
FF14 is not an exact copy of that formula, but it's closer to it than anything else on the market including WoW's current iteration.
FFXI would like to have a word with you about that said "paradigm"
Proven to work with this IP.
Also, might want to take notice of that one game that has more sub players than most f2p games have accounts registered.
I agree, you cant make an average game anymore and expect people to pay a sub.
Also people ARE getting sick of the f2p pay model. Tides are starting to turn away from item malls and cash grabs.
Also with p2p, if you don't spend tons of money developing a game, can be very sustainable and even profitable with a very small population.
I know many are bitter that some games exist that charge a sub...it shouldn't matter that they exist...because f2p games are way better right...and there are so many out there...why even bother arguing about it on the few p2p games when there so many better games out there for free....doesn't help strengthen the argument when the f2p crowd has to protest a p2p game in order to have a shot at a good game for once.
I think you have missed my point or maybe I wasn't clear. I am making a case for FF14 to be a successful sub based game. Not to be included in the list of failed P2P attempts.
Originally posted by Gravarg You can tell people who didn't play FFXI long. There is sooooo much more to do at 50 than just gear grind...
Played FF XI a lot actually. But thanks for assuming and generalising. Yes we know you can level multiple classes / jobs there is crafting and gathering. What else is there? yeah chasing shiny gear with awesome stats.
The novelty wears off once you level atleast two classes. Once you start with third you would rather spend more time with your lvl 50 but then you realise all you got is raid and die. And not everyone is into crafting and gathering. So only other option is to quit.
there has been an official SE post that they will be reducing repair costs and cost of dark matter, as well as adding in an 'average item level' displayed on character screen , and this level will need to be at a certain level to do high level content
Comments
He's obviously not enjoying it, since he's complaining about it. Little do you know that in coming to his defense, you are actually doing him an injustice because listening to you, he will never get it. But perhaps you fall in the same category. Perhaps you both need help. There is nothing wrong with needing help by the way. Everyone needs help at one time or another. This is your time.
Regarding your dismissal of the community aspect of my post, well this IS an MMORPG. That MMO you see there? It stands for "Massive-Multiplayer-Online." In other words, it means that the objective of the game is to share the game experience with others. It is not a single player game. If you are the anti-socail type who likes to play solo and can't, or do not want to, get along with others, well, that's what single player games are for. Now, this is not to say that you can't play an MMO any way you like, because you certainly can as long as you fork over the money. But don't come to forums complaining about the experience when you are not having fun, because there certainly is a wrong way to play in an MMORPG, and rushing to end game, only to then start complaining about a supposed dungeon token grind, is fail rule number one about how an MMORPG should be played. I don't expect you to get that though. I am fully congnizant of the fact that my pointing this out to you may be an effort in futility, but if even one person reads this, and as a result, they become enlightened, then I would have considered my effort well worth it.
I just wanted to point out here that this game is a themepark.
The developers made a conscious decision to create content that is meant to be played in a certain way. Choosing the developers planned route to endgame will be the most enjoyable.
That's just the nature of the game. Yeah you can harp on the fact that some will disregard the main storyline and fate farm the entire game...if they LIKE it then that's fine...its certainly not optimal and misses a lot of effort to make the game enjoyable by the developers.
Thing is, when someone is doing something in a themepark, and hating it...and it also happens to be in a manner in which the game wasn't designed to be played...well heaven forbid people inform the guy he is doing it wrong...because he is.
Your argument makes sense in a sandbox, where there is no developer designed path so to speak...doesn't hold true in just about every themepark....well a few have abandoned their main storyline and offered a fast path...this isn't one of those games however.
I really dislike the argument that its a mmo so everyone should be able to do anything they want and enjoy it...few games are designed as such...and when you are racing to endgame and then complaining about the games content and its endgame (especially not being able to finish endgame in its entirety without playing it ) then you are failing at the game basically.
DAOC? Darkfall?
LOL
Extremely well said. To my fellow MMO players, enjoy the game and your friends. Let these solo content devourers bitch and move along.
Devs have finite time and budgets - content has to eventually end or become repeatable.
At least in this game grinding tokens is a gateway to harder content like HM Titan / Coil.
The joke is still on you. I'm not happy with themepark treadmill games either, but when I sit down to play one I don't lie to myself about what my expectations are. There is literally not one other possible thing this game could have been at 50, you know what it's going to be within the first 5 levels. The state of the genre is not an excuse for your unsatisfaction or whining... especially in the first 3 weeks of this game.
Currently playing - FF14ARR
Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
Absolutely null surprise there.
Yoshi-P said very early on that his vision for ARR was to model it after "the standard modern theme park".
Numerous decisions he's made and systems he's described since then have illustrated he meant exactly what he said.
Now the end-game dungeon/gear grind is yet another way he's sticking to the "tried and true" (aka "the old and tired").
Hey, he's a man of his word at least!
"Please look forward to it!"
The MMO community is more and more pushing toward "less streamlined, less themepark, fewer quest-hubs, more open world, more freeform". Developers - at least the ones paying attention - have been catching on to the fact that the so-called "standard themepark setup" is unsustainable; players can simply burn through content far too fast for developers to keep up. This is particularly true when the developers are also feeling pressure to "make all the content accessible/soloable/less challenging", or face backlash from players complaining about "grind" and "leveling is too slow!", because reaching level cap took them more than a week.
So, while other developers have come to this realization and are trying to move away from it in various ways (with SOE being, perhaps, the most aggressive about it with EQN - time will tell on that, though), Yoshi-P decided to take ARR and run in the opposite direction.... straight for the heart of the "themepark" template. He's just arriving at a party that most everyone else is leaving.
The result is..... surprise of surprises... a MMO that plays/feels like yet another standard themepark MMO with all the same things people have done ad nauseum for the past 8 years-plus.... but wrapped in a slick FF skin, complete with fan service aplenty.And before anyone asserts otherwise... yes, I've played ARR. Plenty. Through Alpha and Beta, into EA and Launch (when I could actually log in). I came over with a 1.0/Legacy character, so I was able to access lots of the high-end content right off the bat.
Darkfall UW is really good, I'd still be playing if paypal didn't get me banned...
Currently playing - FF14ARR
Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
Except for one thing.
There are still plenty of us who weren't done with those rides. But all the other Standard Theme parks shut down or underwent "Major renovations" and are no longer the Theme Park they once were. Now, this is the only one left under that old umbrella. This is exactly what I wanted and I don't think I am alone.
That's fine.
The point isn't whether or not that style can be enjoyed.
The point is if that style is or isn't sustainable... at least as a sub-based MMO. MMO after MMO after MMO over the last 8+ years, has proven quite empirically that "no, it isn't".
Yoshi-P is latching on to a paradigm that's all but been proven to be no bueno. Again, at least for a MMO intended to remain sub-based, and not even reliably as F2P/Hybrid.
It's fair to say that there's a population of players who will take their time and take in all that a MMO has to offer, rather than rushing through it. I'm part of that crowd.
Sadly, it seems most others aren't, and those who are, aren't numerous enough to maintain a sustainable subscriber base.
A. I'm going to keep playing the game, I just wanted to point out to people what to expect at 50 and what a lot of players were doing. So I'm not a content locust, as I plan to stay in the game. I'm just trying to gear up for Frontlines, is there a problem with that? How Is that being a content locust?
B. My original post is truthful. This is what is actually happening. Believe it or not, but you'll see when you hit 50
C. There is harder endgame content!!!!! Just no one is geared for it now, at least in PUGs. Ok??? There are harder dungeons. But for those peeps who ding 50 they'll probably run into the situation that I did.
D. Hopefully in a couple of months people will do the token gear grind, get the level 70 gear and more and more people can do harder content instead of grinding the same dungeon over and over
E. I'm going to keep playing this game until they add Frontline and see how it turns out.
F. As for other content besides a gear grind they could add. hmmm maybe a huge level 50+ open world zone where people could do NON-INSTANCED PVE raids??? Like a big zone where you aren't locked into an 8 person party, but can take 50+ and work 1-2 hours to fight a huge dragon or something. That would allow non 50s to participate and help.
LASTLY, you need to have the basis token gear or you will get killed too easily on Ifrit and Garuda. If 1 person dies on those bosses because of low hp, chances are they will die often and become a liability, and you need all 8 guys to beat those bosses if you are in a PUG.
I'm hoping the tokens aren't a permanent trend in the game's design, but I don't have a problem with it if it's a gate while we wait for additional RNG gear content to be released.
Currently playing - FF14ARR
Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
Please tell me about the lies that i told myself. Why do you think i quit after leveling to 50? if i was lying to myself i would renew my sub in hope of some magic to happen or miracle patch to drop which will give a lot more choices at lvl 50.
Also 'its been 3 weeks' excuse is weak considering it is a remake of 1.0, they had a lot of oppertunities and a second chance to make sure that this time players have lot more options in terms of gameplay other than raid or die at lvl 50. They won't be getting a third chance.
If you think my concerns about the end game at lvl 50 and missed oppertunity for the second time by SE is whining then sir i can assure you that you don't know what whining really is.Its funny that you tell me that state of genre is not an excuse for my whining but somehow it is an excuse for you to come up with a lame defence like 'its just been 3 weeks'.
What puzzles me the most is that game companies learn nothing from past experinces. As if they live in their own bubble with no outside contact. They keep repeating same mistakes over and over again and then wonder why players are dropping faster than dead flies once free month is over.
A sub based game with nothing but raids for gear grinding at lvl 50 in year 2013? do i even need to tell you how this is going to end up in couple of months?
Yeah the genre isn't going to change until something large comes and makes it change. In the mean time a 3 week old game (reboot is irrelevant) is likely to be lacking additional content, most of the planned features are a horizon away. There are more issues with these games than the tired ancient model. As I've said. I am not a fan of the gear treadmill style of design either, but I'm also trying to play the game to enjoy adventuring through the content in front of me, and not worrying about the future of it.
Currently playing - FF14ARR
Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
The only thing that has been empirically proven is that poorly designed MMOs don't deserve a subscription. This site is notorious for throwing around the term "WoW Clone" to describe failed game. But I'd say what they really failed in was to successfully clone WoW in the 1st place. Every single game that failed as a P2P game, did so because they were missing something that WoW had. Even now, WoW is changing it's direction to match the current trend and has pay the price of subscriptions for it. What has never been successfully copied was the actual formula that brought in 12M subs into the genre in the 1st place.
FF14 is not an exact copy of that formula, but it's closer to it than anything else on the market including WoW's current iteration.
I disagree that reboot is irrelevant. Yoshida did many surveys on official forums and had tons of feedback and player data with him. So he had the oppertunity to grab pulse of the players and make a MMO which will be a lot more than just copy of WOW's gear treadmill at level cap.
The reason which kept me playing till lvl 50 is because i have said it multiple times that leveling is the best part of the game and once you hit 50 everything falls apart..reminds you of any other MMO? yeah just every other single themepark MMO in past.
I have lost account how many times i have heard that 'not worth continuing past free month' in forums, chat and in my FC. And i don't blame players for quitting because not everyone is into hamster wheel gear treadmil.
FFXI would like to have a word with you about that said "paradigm"
Proven to work with this IP.
Also, might want to take notice of that one game that has more sub players than most f2p games have accounts registered.
I agree, you cant make an average game anymore and expect people to pay a sub.
Also people ARE getting sick of the f2p pay model. Tides are starting to turn away from item malls and cash grabs.
Also with p2p, if you don't spend tons of money developing a game, can be very sustainable and even profitable with a very small population.
I know many are bitter that some games exist that charge a sub...it shouldn't matter that they exist...because f2p games are way better right...and there are so many out there...why even bother arguing about it on the few p2p games when there so many better games out there for free....doesn't help strengthen the argument when the f2p crowd has to protest a p2p game in order to have a shot at a good game for once.
You can tell people who didn't play FFXI long. There is sooooo much more to do at 50 than just gear grind...
Even though you're not forced to group to level like in FFXI, the OP said it, this is still a very social oriented game. At 50 the more friends you have, the better off you'll be.
I think you have missed my point or maybe I wasn't clear. I am making a case for FF14 to be a successful sub based game. Not to be included in the list of failed P2P attempts.
Played FF XI a lot actually. But thanks for assuming and generalising. Yes we know you can level multiple classes / jobs there is crafting and gathering. What else is there? yeah chasing shiny gear with awesome stats.
The novelty wears off once you level atleast two classes. Once you start with third you would rather spend more time with your lvl 50 but then you realise all you got is raid and die. And not everyone is into crafting and gathering. So only other option is to quit.
Anyone who just ain't feeling FF, try Darkfall UW, huge open world sandbox, just a suggestion...