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Just as a background, right now FATE XP rewards are a bit out of whack with regard to risk versus reward.
You get about the same amount of XP from a FATE as you do a Leve, a frist-time Heist, or a first-time Dungeon completion reward. The major difference being: it takes about 1 minute for a zerg army to beat a fate, they spawn with regular frequency, and there is no limitation on your participation (i.e. nothing similar to the Leve allowance).
So this has lead to a lot of people sitting in some popular areas grinding FATEs for XP. I'm not saying they are bad people, or that FATEs are horrible, or that they are smart for being super efficient. I'm just saying right now - that's the way it is.
So my first thought: Why do I care? I have done a lot of FATEs, but I don't sit around and farm them. I do them if they are nearby and I happen to be in the area doing other things. They are great experience, and I love the GC seals. If farming FATEs is how other people choose to spend their time playing the game, then that's on them, and aside from running into "The Zerg" in the more popular areas, it doesn't directly affect me or the way I choose to play the game.
Then I thought some more. My my enjoyable activity so far in the game has been the dungeons. I haven't come across any I don't like yet, and I've run them all up through L49 multiple times by now. I am in a good FC, but as they are mostly 50 and running CM/AK/Hard modes and I'm not quite there yet, I still rely on the Duty Finder a good bit. So here's the rub: if the bulk of the population is out there farming FATEs from L5-49, then they aren't queueing in the Duty Finder (except as seldom as required to advance their storylines). There are pretty long queues, especially as DPS.
Would tweaking the FATE XP reward, or putting some sort of other limitation on it (such as a 5-min debuff that prevents you from receiving XP in FATEs but still GC Seals, or tying it to Leve Allowance, or some other such mechanic), spread the population back out and encourage participation in other activites?
Or am I just being selfish because I want shorter queues? Should FATE XP be tweaked at all? Once you get down to your 3+ class, while there are plenty of ways to get xp, there aren't many other avenues to get "fast" xp. Should there be an avenue of fast xp available (I would argue yes for that 3+ class, but specifically not for the first class)
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All they need to do is increase the risk, IE: Make FATES scale with the number of people participating in them.
Adjust XP down, but add additional benefits like a chest or a random piece of gear, or short duration XP buff (to encourage mob grinding or doing dungeons)
They also need to make some of the duties more worthwhile. I'm not knocking them. I love the dungeons. They should have some sort of "daily" dungeon that will give a good amount of XP for the first completion.
Finally, make the guildhests more worthwhile than just the first time you run them.
Doing all of this, should reduce the need to slam our faces into FATES all the time.
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Since you are talking about adding some form of bonus to dungeons on a daily basis, I figure following snip from the interview in the other thread would be of relevance:
For Tanks, talking Final Fantasy, knights are pretty popular so you would think there would be enough, maybe the responsibility for knights in FFXIV ARR is heavy.
It was just as I predicted, in any MMO’s there is shortage on tanks. We’re looking into add a bonus for those roles we are short on in patch 2.1.
Can you please explain some more regarding the bonus for those roles in shortage?
In the finders display it will display what roles are currently short, so if you que in with that role you’ll get exp bonus or gil bonus.
Sounds similar to blood donation. Like we’re short on blood type AB. So that’s going to show up on each DutyFinder category?
Yes it will. We are short on these people, it’s a feature we can do because we have the Armoury System.
So for EXP bonus it’s going to be like 1.1 times more?
No, I believe it will be somewhat better than 1.1 times. Also, we’re going to start random matching. Not sure if we’re going to separate the story primal battle and non-story primal battle from category but for categories are split into categories such as “Leveling Dungeon”, “End Dungeon”, “Guild Order” and if you press the “Random” button to que in, DutyFinder will automatically and randomly choose a dungeon. For those that que in with this random matching will also get a bonus. However this is once a day feature.
Once a day, what do you mean once?
The bonus you can obtain from doing it random.
I see, so you can play the random matching as much as you want in that one day, however the bonus will only apply to that first time only?
We are still looking into either making it once a day, or one bonus only. When we say bonus, it’s not experience points or gil, you will be able to obtain tokens needed to obtain gears. You will be able to obtain tokens from this random matching. Merit in doing this is that high level players will come in together with new players to fill in the roles that is short. Also we’re looking into a feature where you can submit a vote for MVP. When queuing in with random matching, players can submit a vote for another player as MVP. By collecting those MVP points you will also be able to trade with items. We are already listing up the rewards, but you can get mounts, or chocobo specific gears and such are being looked into.
Ohh, that’s nice, is that also coming in patch 2.1?
Yes we are planning to implement this in patch 2.1
FATEs is grinding. Killing millions of mobs is grinding. Completing thousands of quests is grinding.
Even dungeons become a grind. You learn every single mechanic, you have a static strategy, you clear it at breakneck speed. Things are just not dynamic to really force my attention, which isn't a complaint about FFXIV specifically - but a general complaint about MMOs and level progression.
After you complete the first level 50, your sole vehicles to level up are killing mobs for chains or doing FATEs. You tell me, which one is more fun?
It's the time sink. Rarely is it fun for longer than a couple of hours.
Fates are the worst and lamest content to ever be put in an MMORPG.
I'm sure most modern MMORPG players would expire from ADD if they had to do classic camp and grind. Camp and grind has it's good (social, group-based, fatal if not done well) and bad (miserable and repetitive grind, not always easy to get a group) and I would've rated that as some of the most unsophisticated and unpleasant MMORPG content ever. But Fates and fate grinding make camp and grind content look insanely amazing by comparison. Fates and fate grinding are garbage.
The idea of public quests is sound. Some games have done some really good things with them. In FFXIV the implementation is just lame. The genre has come a long way and this is a redesign so how do you not do better with this?
The execution here is very weak. The vast majority of them are mindless zergs. Zero thinking, zero danger, zero chance of fail, just beat down mobs that spawn out of thin air (another lame par tof it all...and in this game in general that you see with so many interaction quests is mobs just magically poofing into existence). Everyone once in a great while there's a fate that's marginally, ever so slightly difficult where someone might die.
The rewards for fates are also completely out of whack compared to the rest of the game. Boatloads of xp and seals and even some gil for doing absolutely nothing.
I would say Fates in FFXIV are just one baby step removed from just giving players xp on a timer, say, every 2-5 minutes you get 5% of a level, just for logging in. The amount of effort you put in to fates is almost this right now. You sit like zombie, starting at the other 60 zombies, a fate pops, you all zerg on over there, mow down the mobs, hoping to get enough participation for gold credit before the mobs are fully vaporized. Twitch. Rinse. Repeat. Ding. 50! Grats on accomplishing nothing, you rock, you are amazing, you go, woot!
I'm sure a lot of players LOVE fates. The types who just want to speed thru the game as fast as humanly possible and who, for whatever reason, don't actually want to PLAY a game, they just want to get thru it and be done with it or something.
I really don't understand so many of the people who love this game and who love the ultra dumbed down infantile ez-mode style of MMORPG - which FFXIV exemplifies since it's the most dumbed down and stripped down post WoW clone ever - by far.
We wait years and years for "the next big" thing and when it arrives so many people just want to blitz thru it, ignoring tons of content, leveling up as fast as humanly possible, using every exploit and even botting (I'm am sure many are botting this game, like the person I heard about today who's already 50 in ALL classes and the people in trade areas who never, ever log out) to get thru endgame as fast as humanly possible, such that after all that wait, all those years, you are basically DONE with the new game 1-2 months after it opens.
Even if you want to take your time there isn't a whole lot to do in this game except craft (miserable - cool system but it's a hellish grind) gather (even more miserable grind) repeat dungeons (some are excellent but you can only repeat the exact same scripted content so many times before wanting to vomit). There's no real exploration value to the game. The game is purposefully designed to speed you thru the leveling portion - the designer himself thinks the game only really exists at endgame (no clue why you spend millions and years creating content nobody even the makers don't care about - but it's not like this illogic is new to MMORPGs). Speed thru, and get to the endgame grind, which is actually a handful of bits of content that everybody universally hates and thinks is boring and only wants to blast thru in the most efficient way possible to get the best loot and....be done with it all?
Tons of people are already well into endgame and some guilds are nearly done or are done with the one real raid - all before the sub even starts.
And with this game, given the absurb pace of the game, there is absolutely not way SE will ever be able to crank out content at a rate to match how fast players can vaporize it. This has been a problem for most post WoW clones and none of them have ever played this fast or been this stupidly easy.
Fates are a part of the problem but you can see why they almost have to have them - there isn't much else to do in the game. If you haven't noticed this yet, you will, the first time you try to level up an alt class.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
I am no html guru, so i just brought you some copy pasta
This so much.
It is not a simple answer. A majority of players who buy an MMO play to LEVEL their character (until endgame). It is the prima facie carrot stick. Whether you are gaining skills, attributes, unlocking content, or whatever combination thereof, most MMOs celebrate level acquisition. FFXIV does not deviate from this model. THEREFORE, when you include a mechanism which, quite literally, exponentially expedites the process and by VIRTUE OF THIS passively discourage the rest of the game, you have a major problem.
This so much.
Fail. You want to grind fates to 50? Here's what you miss:
Airship travel
mount
retainer
pet battle system
Grand company
key class abilities
access to jobs
Levemetes
grind fates and end up with a completely gimped character. Grats?
I have no idea. I don't. Doesn't affect me having fun.
Airship travel- Won't need if you're just grinding FATE's anyway
Mount- Same as above, though it would make it easier
Retainer- Won't need because you're not worried about inventory space, in fact you make more gil doing this than anything else
Pet battle system- Essentially helps you level up on mobs....again poinltess since it still won't be as efficient as FATES
Key class abilities/access to jobs/grand company- You can always go back and do these before endgame content (see: people with legacy characters like myself)
Levemetes: Again, who cares when you're already getting so much more xp than anything else in the game?
Hardly a gimped character. In fact it just makes everything you listed ten times faster to unlock since you dont have to wait for the next main storyline quest.
Good try though
It is not a simple answer. A majority of players who buy an MMO play to LEVEL their character (until endgame). It is the prima facie carrot stick. Whether you are gaining skills, attributes, unlocking content, or whatever combination thereof, most MMOs celebrate level acquisition. FFXIV does not deviate from this model. THEREFORE, when you include a mechanism which, quite literally, exponentially expedites the process and by VIRTUE OF THIS passively discourage the rest of the game, you have a major problem.
This so much.
Fail. You want to grind fates to 50? Here's what you miss: Airship travel mount retainer pet battle system Grand company key class abilities access to jobs Levemetes grind fates and end up with a completely gimped character. Grats?
Airship travel- Won't need if you're just grinding FATE's anyway
Mount- Same as above, though it would make it easier
Retainer- Won't need because you're not worried about inventory space, in fact you make more gil doing this than anything else
Pet battle system- Essentially helps you level up on mobs....again poinltess since it still won't be as efficient as FATES
Key class abilities/access to jobs/grand company- You can always go back and do these before endgame content (see: people with legacy characters like myself)
Levemetes: Again, who cares when you're already getting so much more xp than anything else in the game?
Hardly a gimped character. In fact it just makes everything you listed ten times faster to unlock since you dont have to wait for the next main storyline quest.
Good try though
lol ok man
I agree and disagree, see I like leveling through the story and enjoying it, but man after you get that first class to 50, and then maybe the second one there isn't a lot left to use to level the other classes, whats the point of being able to get all the classes to level 50 on one toon if there isn't a way to do it, after you run out of qests, ya there is leves, but those things run out real fast when you try to level a class on the entirely, all that's left is grinding mobs or fates.
its kinda self defeating to be honest.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Game is better off with the Fates.
It adds something additional to progression.
Do I think people power level on fates for their first trip to endgame? Yup...do I care how others play the game...nope....
Its your choice...if you like fates and want to progress on that,...go for it...if you hate fates and use it to power up then complain about a lack of content and how fast you got to endgame...then your an idiot (don't care about the 're on your deal with it)
I certainly wouldn't be against adding yet another leveling option...I mean some people are planning to take more than one job to endgame so youll be doing a lot of Fates even if you don't power level on them the first time around.
Oh and the leves...they stack up to 99 and you get like 3 per 10hrs...so save up on them a few days and go nuts on an alt class or crafting/gathering for a burst of XP. Its another option but its more like daily quests reinvented without the rep grind.
Oh also you are able to progress through each GC without losing or resetting progress when switching companies...so there is a good reason to do fates beyond leveling if you want access to all three companies stuffs (though you can only use the GC stuff you are a member of at any given time)
They will lose a metric ton of players either way. It seems there are a huge number of players who believe they've "beaten the game" when they reach L50. They pretty much quit after that point, because they "don't raid, and there's nothing else to do".
We have to accept that FATEs right now are a necessary part of the game. Simply removing them would create more problems. To that end, they just need to make changes.
People love FATEs because they're fast XP. For those leveling sub-classes after they've used up all available quests, they are mandatory. Remove them and you'll have problems with those two crowds.
People dislike FATEs because they end too fast without scaling beyond a certain number of players. People don't like them because they are too simple.
In order to fix FATEs, you'd have to consider the following:
1. Providing alternative ways of getting XP beyond leves, dungeons, quests. At the very least, balance the XP between those and FATEs. This could mean nerfing the rewards of FATEs or buffing the XP from the leves, dungeons, quests. Either way, just balance them based on the time:reward ratio.
2. Implement a better scaling system for large groups of people.
3. Provide more "interesting" FATEs. This is subjective, but it's an option.
I think your asking the wrong question. Why are FATES so shallow and bland? There are two types of FATES bosses and waves of enemies with two variations, escort or turn-ins plus one FATE that is chained together in the zone. That's it.
I don't think you should consider taking features out but there is a hell of a lot of room for improvement.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/They are open world content, it's the only way that shit works rofl.
I'm sure there are better open world encounters out there, that doesn't make hyperbole any less of a hyperbole though. Early Rift did not go overboard with their open world encounters either, the good stuff comes afterwards.
What displeases me the most about Fates is how Zergy they are. Maybe they're not so bad if you're a DPS (I dunno, as I have never played one), but if you're Tank, it is bad, because you end up playing as DPS, as a weak DPS. And I suppose the situation is also lame for Healers. I would like the Fates to enforce Trinity, rather then Zerginess. I don't think this would be easy to design, but maybe they can:
1- Increase the amount of monsters, based on the amount of players. ( I guess they already do this, but I don't know.)
2- Increase the attack power of spawning monsters based on how well distributed the Roles are among the players participating in the Fate. Do this enough to scare DPS and Healers, then suddenly an actual Tank will be need and he will need to be healed. I understand the players are often not in parties, so they wouldn't evenbe able to see the aggro meter, but if this measure were implemented in some degree, it would create some Trinity gameplay in the Fates. It is not supposed to be as sharp as in dungeons, because without Parties, things wouldn't be as organised... but seriously... just increase mob damage and the some trinity stuff will emerge.
I don't care much about Fates giving relatively high XP. I would just like them to be less Zergy. The single player content is Zergy enough. You only need to use your wits in dungeons and crafting.
I don't want FATES to go away, not at all. What I don't like is the complete imbalance they create currently.
Everyone keeps giving these 1 dimensional responses. "Don't take away FATEs you'll ruin the game!" As well as "Get rid of these things they're way too op!"
It really is as simple as nerfing their xp or making leves EQUALLY efficient.
People who defend the current state of FATEs keep rambling on about choice, both the ever ridiculous "Dont use them then" as if that's going to happen, and the "But these give us choices when leveling up other classes".
The latter is completely false. If it was a choice then you would be able to do leves, FATEs, what have you....all with equal efficiency, THEN it would be a choice. As it currently stands its a simple matter of do you want to gimp your xp AND gil or not?
Now, having said that....I do NOT think dungeons should have the same amount of XP as a FATE. The reasoning is really quite simple...drops. A decreased amount of xp is totally okay in those instances, because there's more to be gained in another manner.
Having said THAT. Leves are at best useful for crafting/gathering. Who honestly uses their leves for a combat class? THIS is where I would like to see the change (again, either decrease in fate or increase in these)
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Yep. Early Rift events......
Hurry and mount up and race......and I mean RACE to the next rift or mini-boss on the map (And pray you didn't get knocked off your mount on the way) if you even thought you wanted a shot at credit for the kills. Then Mount up and race to the next. maybe you can get off one or two instant attacks or an auto-attack before the mob(s) died. This is repeated until the climactic boss event. That big auto attack zerg spam on the map. Although, some guys were there to flex their DPS-Meter Epeen.
And if it was a lower level zone, you'd always get a bunch of 50s that loved to come in and dominate the events which only compounded the above issue.
But, in time, those events..........they got better. And even better. By the end of Vanilla, some of those events were pretty awesome actually.
So, if Yoshi is serious about his job, (I believe he is) XIV will only get better too.
It's astonishing how awful fates feel after experiencing how amazing dynamic events can be in GW2. I praised the heck out of GW2's open world experience, which encompasses much more than just its events, but I especially praised its event system. I feel the game does with events what WoW did with quests back in 2004; yes, they've been used before in moderation in previous games, but never before as the centerpiece to the open world PvE experience. I thought both games made that leap forward with their respective systems with resounding success.
The particular implementation of the event type system known as FATES in FFARR, however, has just been pitiful. I think one of the biggest issues for me is that, rather than immerse me more in the world and its goings-on as spontaneous events should, fates currently take me right out of the game world. The purpose of every single fate is the same: it's about gaining a large chuck of EXP, some gil and some GC seals. Players approach every single fate with the exact same mentality: quick tag as many mobs as possible so we get maximum credit for the fate!
Done right, events don't have me worrying about exp and other rewards. They don't have me strategically sacrificing effectiveness or forsaking supporting my allies just so I can tab target an instant cast useless DOT spell more quickly. No. Good events have me worrying about the actual events that are transpiring around me. They make the world more interesting and engaging. They present a narrative. They make the world more immersive, not less.
I think the sources of this overall problem are twofold: 1) lack of variety, and 2) the game is structured in such a way that players are intentionally seeking out and grinding FATES, rather than experience them organically as intended. This goes completely counter to the strength of event systems in MMOs.
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That is great for you, but there are a lot of players that face very long queue times. Even as a scholar sometimes it's 20-30 minutes. As a SMN or any DPS class it can go over an hour, depending on the dungeon.
Need a Heist or regular Primal as a DPS class, be ready for a wait.