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Dear proponents of this game,
I challenge you to offer me a description of the combat at lvl 50 in words, not visuals, that accurately portrays and tries to entice players to get into it.
If you don't like this game, that is fair and understandable, but this thread is not for you. I've read enough reviews to sort of get the gist of it; I am now looking for a very specific positive description of combat, since all I have read up to this point is negativity about the GCD, etc.
Is it easy to learn hard to master like WoW (used to be.. in PvP, PvE was always mindless)? Does it have the potential for complexity in PvP? What is the learning curve and skill ceiling?
Thank you in advance.
Comments
The set of operations you're expected to do during that content as a given role.
How many abilities do you actively use? What are your rotations? How many ranks per spell do you have? Is there any synergy between your abilities and your allies'?
Do macros play a role? How many interrupts/cc abilities do you have along with abilities that break them?
wait... you want someone to type out the entire set of classes, jobs, and cross class skills, followed by them telling you what each one does in endgame content and their optimal rotations?
go look it up. there's lots of info out there.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
It's nice that your interested, but no one is going to do a research paper for you. Holy crap. Just watch some end game raiding on twitch. You'll see all that stuff there.
Currently playing - FF14ARR
Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
Why does somebody requesting said information have to be entitled?
People have gone to great lengths to type out amazingly comprehensive reviews, like Bear and Voldaq. No combat system I have encountered in an MMO since EQ required nearly as much detail, or even text.
It sounds like a double standard when somebody is held to provide great detail when critiquing something, yet disparaged for asking for equivalent justification from a fan.
It's not about being entitled, but don't expect someone to take the time to write out everything you want. Asking for something to be done is totally different than someone taking the time to do something they wanted to do.
Please point out such posts showing that certain posters require great detail from someone criticizing while not requiring great detail from someone praising.
Sorry I can't answer much for you. But I see nothing wrong with your post, I think @fans then a challenge immediately assumes you are trying to prove some point.
I am 50 but I have not done much beyond a handful of HM Ifrits. I can tell you it's not a cake walk, there are some class dependencies. PAL interrupts better than WAR, "need" BLM/SUM for AOEing nails etc. The endgame (like any MMO) is a huge time sink though, and I enjoy so much more of the game that I will probably just go level another class/job, work on crafting, or chase after achievements.... although if you look at those achievements.... holy crap
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
I'll bite. I'm a scholar just about to start BCoB end game raiding.
I have no set rotations for healing, it's all driven by boss actions. For DPS I will start with a single target rotation of DoT, instant DoT(1), Energy Drain, instant DoT(2) or for a group I will Shadow Flare -> single target rotation. For trash I always preshield the tank, so I buy myself time to flip into a DPS stance and drop some quick DoTs.
Scholars must be thinking 1-2 moves ahead at all times. We are a damage mitigation class as compared to a white mage which is a healing class. This means quickly identifying patterns and reacting to them several seconds ahead.
Movement is a must, I'm always positioning and re-positioning myself to ensure that I do not take unnecessary damage and that I remain in range of all party members in the case that I have to quickly off-tank heal them.
I use literally every ability available to me. That's nearly 3 full hotbars with a pet hotbar. Macros do not play a role for my style of play, I think they lock me into too many static rotations. I prefer to freely choose my rotations based on the flow of battle. Scholars are not primary CC'ers or interrupters.
I'm not sure what you mean about spell ranks. I have spells, they work. I don't exactly "rank them up".
There are massive synergies between a white mage and a scholar. You are going to want to practice with another white mage to build some chemistry.
You wont like my answer cause im not at 50. And I havnt played all the classes.
But so far even at non lvl 50 Monk the GCD and animations do add strategy and skill in fighting.
Now you dont have to do all this and I usually dont depending on the mob type and lvl but high lvl mobs and certain mobs you have to or they just make it so damn easy to do.
Alot of skills have a position bonus. If you just spam the skills while running in circles (like alot do) youll never get the bonus unless your lucky.
But if you wait for the mob to do an attack with a long animation you can position urself to hit the right position before the mob turns to face you. Also some mobs will do a painted charge up(it shows a red circle or cone on the grown) if you didnt blow your skiill or not on GCD you can attack and have enough time to get out of the way. Unlike GW2 of hit and run with no worries if your on the GCD you wont have enough time to wait for your skills to pop and wait for the animation to register a hit and get out of the way. (once the paint is gone and the animation starts if your out of the way before the hit part of his animation fires it seems to still damage you, unlike my attack which it seems like the start of the hit part of the animation, I need to be close enough and in the right position for it to register.)
Now early levels PUG combat seems like the most simplest 123 even a child could do and im not exaggerating, high lvl players had to reassure me that at lvl 30 it starts to get chaotic and hard but as you get more skills you have to choose which skills to use in the 123 some give a buff others have better position damage but not so good non positional damage.
This game isnt action combat but PUG/MNK is damn near close. If your a PUG/MNK and your standing still face rolling abilities.... Your doing it wrong and all high levels will swear to you on this. You will always be moving.
Now I did play a few lvls of THAUM, I thought it was still needed for Monk during early levels. Probably one of the most annoying casters I ever played in a game. Not sure higher levels but OMG will Fire (best dmg spell) burn your mana up and I dont mean rest after you kill the mob I mean your empty and the mob is still hitting you. When other MMOs talk about mana management FF took the 5h*t to extreme. You have to play the mana mini-game for that caster. Ill go back some day to lvl it enough to get sleep (think its lvl 10) its a CC on a really short timer so not sure how good it is.
And if you play PUG/MNK for gods sake dont run in circles if you pull aggro. Your not hitting the positions and you f**k it up for the rest of us cause we cant do ours either.
As for Macros most I hear about them is for targeting and other stuff I guess you could do it for combos but at high levels youll find that youll start doing one then change to a different rotation mid way cause an opportunity poped up. But you could just macro your way to average dps.
Except that isn't even close to the point of the thread. The game is fun, levels 1-50.
The game isn't particularly complex until the end, but I don't see how that is a bad thing. You level fairly quickly, people need the time to understand all mechanics so they aren't just hit by a wall that is impassable.
I'd love to see this never-land scenario in practice considering every player starts at a different skill level and as such someone is going to get the short end of the stick.
So, challenging to who? Your expectations are quite shit ones if you think a negligible amount of hc players should get to decide where the line goes. Newcomers can go to hell amirite? A sensible long-term solution if I've ever seen one.
One thing is damn sure; this game is challenging and enjoyable from level 1 to a whole lot of players and gets harder progressively from level 2 until level 50+ilvl90. It does not keep the same difficulty level up until 50 but people act like whatever isn't in the coil of bahamut can be ignored no matter how much more of a challenge it gives the players in comparison to the challenges three levels below it.
in a nutshell it's as if everything below the hardest encounters are seen as easy enough for it to not even matter how much there is difficulty progression, although it actually matters to most people playing.
Here here! Why isn't coil of bahamut available at level 1. Why isn't Bahamut himself available as lvl 1 content? I should be able to kill Bahamut with the 3 skills I have and make it Challenging! Make it involved. I want ot have depth of combat at lvl 1 with 3 abilities. Make it so that combining my three skills in the different order gives me different effects.
/sigh.
I'll bite. I'm a scholar just about to start BCoB end game raiding.
I have no set rotations for healing, it's all driven by boss actions. For DPS I will start with a single target rotation of DoT, instant DoT(1), Energy Drain, instant DoT(2) or for a group I will Shadow Flare -> single target rotation. For trash I always preshield the tank, so I buy myself time to flip into a DPS stance and drop some quick DoTs.
Scholars must be thinking 1-2 moves ahead at all times. We are a damage mitigation class as compared to a white mage which is a healing class. This means quickly identifying patterns and reacting to them several seconds ahead.
Movement is a must, I'm always positioning and re-positioning myself to ensure that I do not take unnecessary damage and that I remain in range of all party members in the case that I have to quickly off-tank heal them.
I use literally every ability available to me. That's nearly 3 full hotbars with a pet hotbar. Macros do not play a role for my style of play, I think they lock me into too many static rotations. I prefer to freely choose my rotations based on the flow of battle. Scholars are not primary CC'ers or interrupters.
I'm not sure what you mean about spell ranks. I have spells, they work. I don't exactly "rank them up".
There are massive synergies between a white mage and a scholar. You are going to want to practice with another white mage to build some chemistry.
Yeah, I play SCH too
2.5 full action bars, the full pet bar, and plenty of macros in order to make healing more efficient -- mostly to enable mouseover healing and target's target nuking/DoTing so I can keep the MT targeted.
It's very busy. There is only 1 instant heal, and you only get to use it in Level 50 content, and even then you have a limited number of times you can cast it. So yes, lots of planning ahead. Lots of trying to work with your damned fairy to keep it from being retarded. Lots of prioritizing who gets healed because our only AOE heal is not very strong (it's a partial heal/damage shield). Lots of pre-dropping damage shields before damage hits.
And on the rare occasion when I'm not healing someone, I dot stuff. The long GCD is a blessing to me - it keeps it from being a spamfest, and lets me at least take the time to look away from the health bars, evaluate the event, and figure out what I'm going to do. I'm getting old, my mind is getting slow, I need all the time I can get. I'll admit early in the game that long GCD seems to drag, but once I started getting into L40+ content, and the difficulty ramped up and the training wheels fell off, now there are events where it feels like it's too short.
I play WARRIOR.
run into mobs , hit OVERPOWER , BLOODBATH , OVERPOWER OVERPOWER OVERPOWER .. when TP runs out spam FLASH .
that's pretty much it really .
As a level 50 bard I will try and break it down for you.
As a support DPS I also watch the Mana of the healers to know when I need to play my Buffing restore mana songs, you do not keep these up an entire fight because they will decrease your dmg output by 20% and drain all of your mana. Also depending on the fight (Ifrit mostly) I will do an elemental song buff. This increases elemental resistance by 10% (or 20% if you use a CD Buff). This is mostly to help healers in large AOE high dmg attacks.
1. Apply your 2 main DOTs at the beginning of every fight.
1a. While applying these buffs you are able to shoot of a non GCD (global cooldown) attack that does some of your highest damage but is on a 15 second CD.
2. Proceed with an attack that selfs buffs for higher crit chance (this lasts 30 seconds)
2a. The previously mentioned skill from 1a has a proc that if your DOTs crit on one of their ticks then it refreshes and is up for use, this means that you will be able to use this skill a lot and will be watching for the proc.
3. If you DOTs and your Crit buff are up then you will spam 1 spell for your main damage while dropping an AOE fire attack on the ground that does DOT if the monster is standing in it (1 minute CD/ lasts 30 seconds).
4. After my DOTs are applied I usually do a self buff of 4 buffs that increase crit, attack power, dexterity, and auto attack attacks 3 times instead of once. Some of these have short 60-90s CDs and one has a 300s CD so I keep these up throughout the fight.
5. While doing all of this I have a silence ability to interrupt casts.
6. If I pull aggro from an ADD then I have a binding ability to lock that target in place.
7. I have a self heal that heals moderate (20-30% ?) HP.
8. After a monster is below 20% HP there is a "finishing" move that you can use that has about a 10 second cooldown. It is high dmg and should be used each chance it is off of CD.
So my rotation is:
Opener 15 second CD>Apply Dots(18 seconds)> Ground AOE (60 second CD)>Self Crit Buff(20 seconds and can proc to crit from another attack)> Self Buffs (60-300s CD)> Spam high hitting attack. (Use "opener" attack as it procs off of DOT crits)
Most everything is situational. Nothing has been too complicated to be honest so far xD
Sorry if this doesn't make sense at all, it is confusing to write. Not all CD times are accurate just a fair example.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
My dragoon rotation.
HT-IR-Fr-BFB-Ph-PS-ID-Jump-Dis-Sweep-CT-TT-VT-LS-FT-HT-Fr-Ph-TT-Sweep-VT-FT-ID-Dis-CT-HT-Fr-Jump-Ph-TT-Sweep-VT-FT-TT-VT-FT
There. Let that sink in.
Yes, it gives me more than enough information to know where you're coming from.
You're coming from the stage where fights like turns 1-4 of Coil are already "been there done that" even from other games. Obviously your skill level is above what it is for the other players with less experience of MMO's or playing in a group.
It is frankly extremely arrogant to proclaim that there is no "real, true" or whatever learning process below level 50 just because you're already well past it yourself. There is a ton to learn for a new MMO gamer or someone with little experience of a modern MMO. In this game that means a LOT of players, PS3 and the Japanese not being the least of them.
What is not challenging to you is challenging to someone else. And not because they suck at games - you can't instantly be good at something you've never tried.
Maybe the curve is too gentle for the gamers who need to progress through it naturally. Either way, someone who can skip these steps altogether is hardly the person to say whether that is the case or not. He can not speak fo the player who doesn't know how to play at the start of the game.
Thank you both for the detailed responses. It sounds a lot more involved than what I had previously thought based on other reviews. I might actually give this game a shot now.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.