Originally posted by Neo_ViperI guess some live in some kind of imaginary world were the fruit vendor at the corner of their street makes more money than an international supermarket franchise ;-)
The fruit from the vendor down the street is fresh, organic, and an all around better produce than the preservative filled flash frozen shit from international supermarktet vendors.
The biggest issue with PvP in MMO's is, you PvP to win. There is no ambiguity about that. PvP where there is no ability to win fails. Games have done PvP content where you simply die and respawn to run in and die again with little to lose or gain from it. It doesn't work. Any MMO that can be won will fail. PvP based MMO's are doomed to fail not because people hate PvP but because people expect to win.
Yes, lets not forget to mention EVE Online. The one and only MMO that didn't die with the PvP core. But lets not forget to mention the multiple failures in attempts to replicate EVE survival. Not to be confused with success. EVE survives, it's by no definiton a success.
tldr: It's too much risk with too little reward for developers and publishers. We as players can appreciate lack of reward for massive risk in gaming.
The biggest issue with PvP in MMO's is, you PvP to win. There is no ambiguity about that. PvP where there is no ability to win fails. Games have done PvP content where you simply die and respawn to run in and die again with little to lose or gain from it. It doesn't work. Any MMO that can be won will fail. PvP based MMO's are doomed to fail not because people hate PvP but because people expect to win.
Yes, lets not forget to mention EVE Online. The one and only MMO that didn't die with the PvP core. But lets not forget to mention the multiple failures in attempts to replicate EVE survival. Not to be confused with success. EVE survives, it's by no definiton a success.
tldr: It's too much risk with too little reward for developers and publishers. We as players can appreciate lack of reward for massive risk in gaming.
They failed in large part because they tried to cash in on the pve side as well Warhammer did this Aeon did this, I'm sure there are others. We already know hybrids are a failed attempt at design, the topic was pvp centric not pvp/pve hybrid
Originally posted by Neo_Viper A FTP shadow with 500k subscribers still (over 10x more than Darkfall ever had) and 2+ million free cash shop players. A terrible failure indeed.
If they had 500k subs, they would never have had to go FTP. That is 100% fiction. And having 2 million players make a free account measures absolutely nothing. And on top of that, it does not take away the fact that that is still less money than the game cost to make. They wouldn't have fired almost everyone if the game was a huge success. But, ignore logic and reason all you want. Go to the hundreds of former Bioware Mythic developers and say "Hey, great success right???"
They only got the subs after going FTP. SWTOR isn't a bad game is you just ignore that its an MMO and play it as TOR 3.
The biggest problem of SW:TOR was that existing MMO players were expecting an SWG V2.0.
The new players, including those who tried after F2P, had no problems adapting to "WoW in space", which is one of the rare WoW clones to have combat done just as well as in the original (WoW).
I'm always amused at players defending small niche game with a ridiculous player base and bashing the big players on the field. But hey, the same people have been bashing WoW for the last 9 years now, so... nothing new under the sun. I guess some live in some kind of imaginary world were the fruit vendor at the corner of their street makes more money that an international supermarket franchise ;-)
Ok I'm confused the general consensus is that SWG fans are a sub demographic of the mmo sphere. Are you inferring that that demographic represents the 1 million give or take losses in subs of the first few months? please expand
I think you underestimate the number of die hard Star Wars fans over the world.
Back then, SWG was actually beating DAoC subscription number wise. That is, before they ruined the game with radical changes that were definitely not needed. In 2003 and 2004, SWG was the second most popular western MMORPG after EQ.
Originally posted by Neo_Viper A FTP shadow with 500k subscribers still (over 10x more than Darkfall ever had) and 2+ million free cash shop players. A terrible failure indeed.
If they had 500k subs, they would never have had to go FTP. That is 100% fiction. And having 2 million players make a free account measures absolutely nothing. And on top of that, it does not take away the fact that that is still less money than the game cost to make. They wouldn't have fired almost everyone if the game was a huge success. But, ignore logic and reason all you want. Go to the hundreds of former Bioware Mythic developers and say "Hey, great success right???"
They only got the subs after going FTP. SWTOR isn't a bad game is you just ignore that its an MMO and play it as TOR 3.
The biggest problem of SW:TOR was that existing MMO players were expecting an SWG V2.0.
The new players, including those who tried after F2P, had no problems adapting to "WoW in space", which is one of the rare WoW clones to have combat done just as well as in the original (WoW).
I'm always amused at players defending small niche game with a ridiculous player base and bashing the big players on the field. But hey, the same people have been bashing WoW for the last 9 years now, so... nothing new under the sun. I guess some live in some kind of imaginary world were the fruit vendor at the corner of their street makes more money that an international supermarket franchise ;-)
Ok I'm confused the general consensus is that SWG fans are a sub demographic of the mmo sphere. Are you inferring that that demographic represents the 1 million give or take losses in subs of the first few months? please expand
I think you underestimate the number of die hard Star Wars fans over the world.
Back then, SWG was actually beating DAoC subscription number wise. That is, before they ruined the game with radical changes that were definitely not needed. In 2003 and 2004, SWG was the second most popular western MMORPG after EQ.
Lets be generous and assume SWG = 500k prior to NGE, where did the other 500k come from? Since SWTORS failure is completely the fault of SWG fans
Originally posted by noturpal wow is Mcdonalds in quality
I'm amazed that people still haven't understood that this comparison doesn't make any sense.
McDonalds is successful because it has restaurants everywhere in the world. Millions. They win on numbers, not on quality. Almost everywhere you go, there's a McDonalds.
The success of an MMORPG is something totally different. The game is accessible everywhere, any MMORPG, not just WoW. People went to WoW because it simply offered a superior product compared to the concurrence. If it didn't, people would simply have played another similar game that was just as readily available to them (like EQ2... for instance, released at the same time).
Bashing WoW is popular, but the McDonalds comparison was obsolete the first time it was made. It's completely nonsensical.
Originally posted by Neo_Viper A FTP shadow with 500k subscribers still (over 10x more than Darkfall ever had) and 2+ million free cash shop players. A terrible failure indeed.
If they had 500k subs, they would never have had to go FTP. That is 100% fiction. And having 2 million players make a free account measures absolutely nothing. And on top of that, it does not take away the fact that that is still less money than the game cost to make. They wouldn't have fired almost everyone if the game was a huge success. But, ignore logic and reason all you want. Go to the hundreds of former Bioware Mythic developers and say "Hey, great success right???"
They only got the subs after going FTP. SWTOR isn't a bad game is you just ignore that its an MMO and play it as TOR 3.
The biggest problem of SW:TOR was that existing MMO players were expecting an SWG V2.0.
The new players, including those who tried after F2P, had no problems adapting to "WoW in space", which is one of the rare WoW clones to have combat done just as well as in the original (WoW).
I'm always amused at players defending small niche game with a ridiculous player base and bashing the big players on the field. But hey, the same people have been bashing WoW for the last 9 years now, so... nothing new under the sun. I guess some live in some kind of imaginary world were the fruit vendor at the corner of their street makes more money that an international supermarket franchise ;-)
Ok I'm confused the general consensus is that SWG fans are a sub demographic of the mmo sphere. Are you inferring that that demographic represents the 1 million give or take losses in subs of the first few months? please expand
I think you underestimate the number of die hard Star Wars fans over the world.
Back then, SWG was actually beating DAoC subscription number wise. That is, before they ruined the game with radical changes that were definitely not needed. In 2003 and 2004, SWG was the second most popular western MMORPG after EQ.
Lets be generous and assume SWG = 500k prior to NGE, where did the other 500k come from? Since SWTORS failure is completely the fault of SWG fans
Mmhh let me do simple math... They get 1M, they lose 500k, remains... 500k.
But yeah, we got you, you won't admit SW:TOR isn't a total failure. Did the game work as well as EQ/Bioware expected? Nope, for various reasons. But did it flop, is it a financial failure? Nope. It still runs strong.
And I'm no "fanboi" of that game, I don't even play it anymore, played the first 6 months and that's it. I logged once a few months ago to say hello to friends and logged out immediately. My reason for not playing has nothing to do with the quality of the game, I'm just tired of "raid/dungeon" end game based games (and I also think their cash shop is crap).
Originally posted by noturpal wow is Mcdonalds in quality
I'm amazed that people still haven't understood that this comparison doesn't make any sense.
McDonalds is successful because it has restaurants everywhere in the world. Millions. They win on numbers, not on quality. Almost everywhere you go, there's a McDonalds.
The success of an MMORPG is something totally different. The game is accessible everywhere, any MMORPG, not just WoW. People went to WoW because it simply offered a superior product compared to the concurrence. If it didn't, people would simply have played another similar game that was just as readily available to them (like EQ2... for instance, released at the same time).
Bashing WoW is popular, but the McDonalds comparison was obsolete the first time it was made. It's completely nonsensical.
Blizzard also brought in many battlenet players and advertised.
Originally posted by Neo_Viper A FTP shadow with 500k subscribers still (over 10x more than Darkfall ever had) and 2+ million free cash shop players. A terrible failure indeed.
If they had 500k subs, they would never have had to go FTP. That is 100% fiction. And having 2 million players make a free account measures absolutely nothing. And on top of that, it does not take away the fact that that is still less money than the game cost to make. They wouldn't have fired almost everyone if the game was a huge success. But, ignore logic and reason all you want. Go to the hundreds of former Bioware Mythic developers and say "Hey, great success right???"
They only got the subs after going FTP. SWTOR isn't a bad game is you just ignore that its an MMO and play it as TOR 3.
The biggest problem of SW:TOR was that existing MMO players were expecting an SWG V2.0.
The new players, including those who tried after F2P, had no problems adapting to "WoW in space", which is one of the rare WoW clones to have combat done just as well as in the original (WoW).
I'm always amused at players defending small niche game with a ridiculous player base and bashing the big players on the field. But hey, the same people have been bashing WoW for the last 9 years now, so... nothing new under the sun. I guess some live in some kind of imaginary world were the fruit vendor at the corner of their street makes more money that an international supermarket franchise ;-)
Ok I'm confused the general consensus is that SWG fans are a sub demographic of the mmo sphere. Are you inferring that that demographic represents the 1 million give or take losses in subs of the first few months? please expand
I think you underestimate the number of die hard Star Wars fans over the world.
Back then, SWG was actually beating DAoC subscription number wise. That is, before they ruined the game with radical changes that were definitely not needed. In 2003 and 2004, SWG was the second most popular western MMORPG after EQ.
Lets be generous and assume SWG = 500k prior to NGE, where did the other 500k come from? Since SWTORS failure is completely the fault of SWG fans
Mmhh let me do simple math... They get 1M, they lose 500k, remains... 500k.
But yeah, we got you, you won't admit SW:TOR isn't a total failure. Did the game work as well as EQ/Bioware expected? Nope, for various reasons. But did it flop, is it a financial failure? Nope. It still runs strong.
And I'm no "fanboi" of that game, I don't even play it anymore, played the first 6 months and that's it. I logged once a few months ago to say hello to friends and logged out immediately. My reason for not playing has nothing to do with the quality of the game, I'm just tired of "raid/dungeon" end game based games (and I also think their cash shop is crap).
I could care less about SWG or SWTOR never played either never intended too. I'm still waiting for the reason SWG caused SWTOR to perform so badly below their own expectations.
Originally posted by noturpal wow is Mcdonalds in quality
I'm amazed that people still haven't understood that this comparison doesn't make any sense.
McDonalds is successful because it has restaurants everywhere in the world. Millions. They win on numbers, not on quality. Almost everywhere you go, there's a McDonalds.
The success of an MMORPG is something totally different. The game is accessible everywhere, any MMORPG, not just WoW. People went to WoW because it simply offered a superior product compared to the concurrence. If it didn't, people would simply have played another similar game that was just as readily available to them (like EQ2... for instance, released at the same time).
Bashing WoW is popular, but the McDonalds comparison was obsolete the first time it was made. It's completely nonsensical.
Blizzard also brought in many battlenet players and advertised.
Franchises mean nothing when the game is crap, we had several proofs recently. Warhammer, closed down. Age of Conan, barely surviving.
And EQ2 has a huge following too, yet it did poorly compared to WoW.
Simply. Because. WoW. Was. A. Superior. Product. Appealing. To. Everyone. From. Hardcore. To. Casual. Polished. And. With. Content. From. Level 1. To. Max. Level. And. Beyond.
Originally posted by noturpal wow is Mcdonalds in quality
I'm amazed that people still haven't understood that this comparison doesn't make any sense.
McDonalds is successful because it has restaurants everywhere in the world. Millions. They win on numbers, not on quality. Almost everywhere you go, there's a McDonalds.
The success of an MMORPG is something totally different. The game is accessible everywhere, any MMORPG, not just WoW. People went to WoW because it simply offered a superior product compared to the concurrence. If it didn't, people would simply have played another similar game that was just as readily available to them (like EQ2... for instance, released at the same time).
Bashing WoW is popular, but the McDonalds comparison was obsolete the first time it was made. It's completely nonsensical.
Eh, gotta disagree with you on this McDonald's thing...
Why do you think McDonald's is everywhere? It's not like some eccentric billionaire just decided one day to create McDonald's and put a restaurant on every city block.
McDonald's is everywhere because it started as an extremely successful small restaurant franchise that grew and grew and grew. Fact is, people like McDonald's.
McDonald's being everywhere is the RESULT of its success, not the cause.
Originally posted by noturpal wow is Mcdonalds in quality
I'm amazed that people still haven't understood that this comparison doesn't make any sense.
McDonalds is successful because it has restaurants everywhere in the world. Millions. They win on numbers, not on quality. Almost everywhere you go, there's a McDonalds.
The success of an MMORPG is something totally different. The game is accessible everywhere, any MMORPG, not just WoW. People went to WoW because it simply offered a superior product compared to the concurrence. If it didn't, people would simply have played another similar game that was just as readily available to them (like EQ2... for instance, released at the same time).
Bashing WoW is popular, but the McDonalds comparison was obsolete the first time it was made. It's completely nonsensical.
Eh, gotta disagree with you on this McDonald's thing...
Why do you think McDonald's is everywhere? It's not like some eccentric billionaire just decided one day to create McDonald's and put a restaurant on every city block.
McDonald's is everywhere because it started as an extremely successful small restaurant franchise that grew and grew and grew. Fact is, people like McDonald's.
McDonald's being everywhere is the RESULT of its success, not the cause.
Originally posted by Neo_Viper A FTP shadow with 500k subscribers still (over 10x more than Darkfall ever had) and 2+ million free cash shop players. A terrible failure indeed.
If they had 500k subs, they would never have had to go FTP. That is 100% fiction. And having 2 million players make a free account measures absolutely nothing. And on top of that, it does not take away the fact that that is still less money than the game cost to make. They wouldn't have fired almost everyone if the game was a huge success. But, ignore logic and reason all you want. Go to the hundreds of former Bioware Mythic developers and say "Hey, great success right???"
They only got the subs after going FTP. SWTOR isn't a bad game is you just ignore that its an MMO and play it as TOR 3.
The biggest problem of SW:TOR was that existing MMO players were expecting an SWG V2.0.
The new players, including those who tried after F2P, had no problems adapting to "WoW in space", which is one of the rare WoW clones to have combat done just as well as in the original (WoW).
I'm always amused at players defending small niche game with a ridiculous player base and bashing the big players on the field. But hey, the same people have been bashing WoW for the last 9 years now, so... nothing new under the sun. I guess some live in some kind of imaginary world were the fruit vendor at the corner of their street makes more money that an international supermarket franchise ;-)
Ok I'm confused the general consensus is that SWG fans are a sub demographic of the mmo sphere. Are you inferring that that demographic represents the 1 million give or take losses in subs of the first few months? please expand
I think you underestimate the number of die hard Star Wars fans over the world.
Back then, SWG was actually beating DAoC subscription number wise. That is, before they ruined the game with radical changes that were definitely not needed. In 2003 and 2004, SWG was the second most popular western MMORPG after EQ.
Lets be generous and assume SWG = 500k prior to NGE, where did the other 500k come from? Since SWTORS failure is completely the fault of SWG fans
Mmhh let me do simple math... They get 1M, they lose 500k, remains... 500k.
But yeah, we got you, you won't admit SW:TOR isn't a total failure. Did the game work as well as EQ/Bioware expected? Nope, for various reasons. But did it flop, is it a financial failure? Nope. It still runs strong.
And I'm no "fanboi" of that game, I don't even play it anymore, played the first 6 months and that's it. I logged once a few months ago to say hello to friends and logged out immediately. My reason for not playing has nothing to do with the quality of the game, I'm just tired of "raid/dungeon" end game based games (and I also think their cash shop is crap).
I could care less about SWG or SWTOR never played either never intended too. I'm still waiting for the reason SWG caused SWTOR to perform so badly below their own expectations.
I've never said it was the only reason. It's one of the reasons, though.
Log into SW:TOR, it's free now. Have a look. The space stations are just as packed as WoW server city hubs. Compared to other games like LOTRO which are really on the verge of failing (very few people in major quest hubs even at prime time), SW:TOR is doing well now after moving to F2P.
Originally posted by Neo_Viper A FTP shadow with 500k subscribers still (over 10x more than Darkfall ever had) and 2+ million free cash shop players. A terrible failure indeed.
If they had 500k subs, they would never have had to go FTP. That is 100% fiction. And having 2 million players make a free account measures absolutely nothing. And on top of that, it does not take away the fact that that is still less money than the game cost to make. They wouldn't have fired almost everyone if the game was a huge success. But, ignore logic and reason all you want. Go to the hundreds of former Bioware Mythic developers and say "Hey, great success right???"
They only got the subs after going FTP. SWTOR isn't a bad game is you just ignore that its an MMO and play it as TOR 3.
The biggest problem of SW:TOR was that existing MMO players were expecting an SWG V2.0.
The new players, including those who tried after F2P, had no problems adapting to "WoW in space", which is one of the rare WoW clones to have combat done just as well as in the original (WoW).
I'm always amused at players defending small niche game with a ridiculous player base and bashing the big players on the field. But hey, the same people have been bashing WoW for the last 9 years now, so... nothing new under the sun. I guess some live in some kind of imaginary world were the fruit vendor at the corner of their street makes more money that an international supermarket franchise ;-)
Ok I'm confused the general consensus is that SWG fans are a sub demographic of the mmo sphere. Are you inferring that that demographic represents the 1 million give or take losses in subs of the first few months? please expand
I think you underestimate the number of die hard Star Wars fans over the world.
Back then, SWG was actually beating DAoC subscription number wise. That is, before they ruined the game with radical changes that were definitely not needed. In 2003 and 2004, SWG was the second most popular western MMORPG after EQ.
Lets be generous and assume SWG = 500k prior to NGE, where did the other 500k come from? Since SWTORS failure is completely the fault of SWG fans
Mmhh let me do simple math... They get 1M, they lose 500k, remains... 500k.
But yeah, we got you, you won't admit SW:TOR isn't a total failure. Did the game work as well as EQ/Bioware expected? Nope, for various reasons. But did it flop, is it a financial failure? Nope. It still runs strong.
And I'm no "fanboi" of that game, I don't even play it anymore, played the first 6 months and that's it. I logged once a few months ago to say hello to friends and logged out immediately. My reason for not playing has nothing to do with the quality of the game, I'm just tired of "raid/dungeon" end game based games (and I also think their cash shop is crap).
I could care less about SWG or SWTOR never played either never intended too. I'm still waiting for the reason SWG caused SWTOR to perform so badly below their own expectations.
I've never said it was the only reason. It's one of the reasons, though.
Log into SW:TOR, it's free now. Have a look. The space stations are just as packed as WoW server city hubs. Compared to other games like LOTRO which are really on the verge of failing (very few people in major quest hubs even at prime time), SW:TOR is doing well now after moving to F2P.
Originally posted by noturpal wow is Mcdonalds in quality
I'm amazed that people still haven't understood that this comparison doesn't make any sense.
McDonalds is successful because it has restaurants everywhere in the world. Millions. They win on numbers, not on quality. Almost everywhere you go, there's a McDonalds.
The success of an MMORPG is something totally different. The game is accessible everywhere, any MMORPG, not just WoW. People went to WoW because it simply offered a superior product compared to the concurrence. If it didn't, people would simply have played another similar game that was just as readily available to them (like EQ2... for instance, released at the same time).
Bashing WoW is popular, but the McDonalds comparison was obsolete the first time it was made. It's completely nonsensical.
Eh, gotta disagree with you on this McDonald's thing...
Why do you think McDonald's is everywhere? It's not like some eccentric billionaire just decided one day to create McDonald's and put a restaurant on every city block.
McDonald's is everywhere because it started as an extremely successful small restaurant franchise that grew and grew and grew. Fact is, people like McDonald's.
McDonald's being everywhere is the RESULT of its success, not the cause.
It's both cause and effect. And it's the most successful restaurant franchise in the world nowadays simply because it's everywhere. When you have millions of restaurants, you for sure gonna make more money than the steak house at the corner of your street. If people want to eat a burger somewhere in the world, they have a 90% chance of finding a McDonalds nearby... result? Yeah, you guessed it.
My point was about the McDonalds-MMO comparison, which is just as invalid even with your explanation. An MMO is available from everywhere (if we except "tight arsed" countries which restrict Net access of course). Players can choose whatever game they want. There's no location restriction where there's only one game (aka WoW) available. As I said, people went to WoW instead of EQ2 back then for one simple reason. WoW was better for most.
In what world would that be? The biggest complainers I've ever seen have been PvPers who complain that everything is done wrong and any time they die they claim the game has an imbalance that must be fixed.
PvPers are the toughest people to please in the MMO world, by miles.
Uhgg, I'm not trying to discuss player attitudes, pity patty sides and your standing on them. I'm referring to which content is easier to offer.
Um...... I quoted the first part of YOUR post.
What it takes to make a player happy is tied into how they feel/act. PvPers often times end up very emotional about the PvP content of a game and complain more about the tiny details than PvErs do. They are far more likely to complain about a half of a second difference in an ability animation or timer. They are far more likely to complain about class/skill balance.
My point being (as a reply to your point) is that PvPers are a far harder group to actually satisfy. That isn't even to mention that in MMOs pure PvPers are a tiny minority so building a game around them would be pointless (Darkfall 1 and 2). Most of those who PvP in MMOs PvP in battlegrounds and they do PvE as well. So you would need a game with both. Or if you wanted to focus only on battleground type of play you could make a game with something like 5v5 on a map where you try to conquer their base. Oh yeah, that is a MOBA.
In an MMO, if PvP is going to be the focus the content is very challenging for developers. It has to skirt the line of giving people things to fight over and control along with meaningful reasons to control them that doesn't give one side such an advantage that when they control them they'll win forever. The players also need some sense of accomplishment and wins (which is why battlegrounds are so popular). But as I said earlier if the idea is to make a game with open world PvP that makes PvPers happy along with having something good to do 1) It isn't any easier than PvE and errors are far less forgiving then with PvE content and 2) the market is too tiny to do it anyway.
Not really into PvP but I will engage in PvP from time to time. If PvP is going to be the primary focus of the game, building the game based on PvP, then it should pretty much be the only focus of the game (but then there are plenty of games on consoles that are single player with the only multi-player part being PvP). There should be no character development and no character differentiation. This way players wouldn't whine about classes needing to be balanced which would save the developers from needing to bring out the nerf bat. It would also keep maxed out characters from looking for easy prey newbie characters to one-shot kill. How popular would the game be? Not sure since, as I said before, there are already many games out there that focus on PvP, they just don't fall into the MMO genre. Would a game like this be considered an mmoRPG? Good question since there wouldn't be any character development and probably very little role-playing going on unless the setting alone would be enough to qualify as "role-playing" but then if the definition of role-playing is going to be that watered down, every video game could qualify as "role-playing."
Originally posted by shirlnt Not really into PvP but I will engage in PvP from time to time. If PvP is going to be the primary focus of the game, building the game based on PvP, then it should pretty much be the only focus of the game (but then there are plenty of games on consoles that are single player with the only multi-player part being PvP). There should be no character development and no character differentiation. This way players wouldn't whine about classes needing to be balanced which would save the developers from needing to bring out the nerf bat. It would also keep maxed out characters from looking for easy prey newbie characters to one-shot kill. How popular would the game be? Not sure since, as I said before, there are already many games out there that focus on PvP, they just don't fall into the MMO genre. Would a game like this be considered an mmoRPG? Good question since there wouldn't be any character development and probably very little role-playing going on unless the setting alone would be enough to qualify as "role-playing" but then if the definition of role-playing is going to be that watered down, every video game could qualify as "role-playing."
Yep, like I keep saying, many systems intrinsic to videogame RPGs as we know them are things that are detrimental to PvP. Vertical character development, gear, etc, is all very BAD for PvP. If you instead make a game based around purely horizontal development, such as say, appearances, then are you really an RPG (the genre as we know it) anymore? Team Fortress 2 has horizontal development in the form of hats and weapons and it's not an RPG. MOBAs have lots of horizontal development. Again, not really considered to be MMORPGs (at least, not within the context of this thread, I imagine).
Even persistent realm vs realm combat is kinda bad for PvP. Because of things like zergfests and people taking over your realm while you're AFK.
Once you remove everything that's bad for PvP in an MMORPG, there isn't really going to be any "RPG" left (the genre. Not the actual role-playing, which you can do with any game).
Play your cards right and you might be able to carve out a niche with the few players who don't mind unbalanced competitive play in a persistent world. But I personally think there's no room in that Eve already occupies what little of it exists.
(as an aside, even the upcoming Warhammer 40k online game refers to itself as a combat game, not an RPG. The devs aren't under the illusions and realize that a PvP centric game simply doesn't work with too many RPG elements)
I guess it depends on what you consider to be "better off." LoL is a pvp game and it's the biggest game ever so.... the "pvp crowd" is obviously potentially huge. So it's certainly possible for MMOs to become more popular by focusing more on pvp. But I don't see why a larger playerbase is how you'd deteremine when a game is "better off." I prefer MMOs, and all games really, to be moore targeted and niche. It seems like the current trend in most forms of entertainment is to grow the playerbase/viewership/readers/whatever at the expense of targeting. Kind of sucks.
EDIT: by the way, I'm not saying you're claiming that better off = a larger playerbase. I'm kind of inferring that as the logical conclusion to what you're saying. Easier to serve would mean serving them better which would mean keeping them around or adding new players etc.
Originally posted by Holophonist I guess it depends on what you consider to be "better off." LoL is a pvp game and it's the biggest game ever so.... the "pvp crowd" is obviously potentially huge. So it's certainly possible for MMOs to become more popular by focusing more on pvp. But I don't see why a larger playerbase is how you'd deteremine when a game is "better off." I prefer MMOs, and all games really, to be moore targeted and niche. It seems like the current trend in most forms of entertainment is to grow the playerbase/viewership/readers/whatever at the expense of targeting. Kind of sucks.
Originally posted by OSF8759 Your assertion is falsified by every PvP centric MMO ever made. And in fact, by making your MMO PvP centric, you've limited your title to a small minority of potential players. MMO players in general are carebear (maybe with a bit of PvP thrown in now and then just to mix things up, but most MMO players don't bother).
EVE would disagree with that
The VAST majority of players are PvE centric so you're assertion is incorrect.
PvE'ers and PvP'ers bitch and moan just as much as the other. I feel the difference is PvP'ers tend not to be as loyal to a title with less investment involved whereas PvE'ers invest alot of time in the ancillary activities.
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The fruit from the vendor down the street is fresh, organic, and an all around better produce than the preservative filled flash frozen shit from international supermarktet vendors.
wow is Mcdonalds in quality
thank you for making my point
The biggest issue with PvP in MMO's is, you PvP to win. There is no ambiguity about that. PvP where there is no ability to win fails. Games have done PvP content where you simply die and respawn to run in and die again with little to lose or gain from it. It doesn't work. Any MMO that can be won will fail. PvP based MMO's are doomed to fail not because people hate PvP but because people expect to win.
Yes, lets not forget to mention EVE Online. The one and only MMO that didn't die with the PvP core. But lets not forget to mention the multiple failures in attempts to replicate EVE survival. Not to be confused with success. EVE survives, it's by no definiton a success.
tldr: It's too much risk with too little reward for developers and publishers. We as players can appreciate lack of reward for massive risk in gaming.
They failed in large part because they tried to cash in on the pve side as well Warhammer did this Aeon did this, I'm sure there are others. We already know hybrids are a failed attempt at design, the topic was pvp centric not pvp/pve hybrid
I think you underestimate the number of die hard Star Wars fans over the world.
Back then, SWG was actually beating DAoC subscription number wise. That is, before they ruined the game with radical changes that were definitely not needed. In 2003 and 2004, SWG was the second most popular western MMORPG after EQ.
My computer is better than yours.
Lets be generous and assume SWG = 500k prior to NGE, where did the other 500k come from? Since SWTORS failure is completely the fault of SWG fans
I'm amazed that people still haven't understood that this comparison doesn't make any sense.
McDonalds is successful because it has restaurants everywhere in the world. Millions. They win on numbers, not on quality. Almost everywhere you go, there's a McDonalds.
The success of an MMORPG is something totally different. The game is accessible everywhere, any MMORPG, not just WoW. People went to WoW because it simply offered a superior product compared to the concurrence. If it didn't, people would simply have played another similar game that was just as readily available to them (like EQ2... for instance, released at the same time).
Bashing WoW is popular, but the McDonalds comparison was obsolete the first time it was made. It's completely nonsensical.
My computer is better than yours.
Mmhh let me do simple math... They get 1M, they lose 500k, remains... 500k.
But yeah, we got you, you won't admit SW:TOR isn't a total failure. Did the game work as well as EQ/Bioware expected? Nope, for various reasons. But did it flop, is it a financial failure? Nope. It still runs strong.
And I'm no "fanboi" of that game, I don't even play it anymore, played the first 6 months and that's it. I logged once a few months ago to say hello to friends and logged out immediately. My reason for not playing has nothing to do with the quality of the game, I'm just tired of "raid/dungeon" end game based games (and I also think their cash shop is crap).
My computer is better than yours.
Blizzard also brought in many battlenet players and advertised.
I could care less about SWG or SWTOR never played either never intended too. I'm still waiting for the reason SWG caused SWTOR to perform so badly below their own expectations.
Franchises mean nothing when the game is crap, we had several proofs recently. Warhammer, closed down. Age of Conan, barely surviving.
And EQ2 has a huge following too, yet it did poorly compared to WoW.
Simply. Because. WoW. Was. A. Superior. Product. Appealing. To. Everyone. From. Hardcore. To. Casual. Polished. And. With. Content. From. Level 1. To. Max. Level. And. Beyond.
(don't ask why I typed like this, it amused me
)
My computer is better than yours.
Eh, gotta disagree with you on this McDonald's thing...
Why do you think McDonald's is everywhere? It's not like some eccentric billionaire just decided one day to create McDonald's and put a restaurant on every city block.
McDonald's is everywhere because it started as an extremely successful small restaurant franchise that grew and grew and grew. Fact is, people like McDonald's.
McDonald's being everywhere is the RESULT of its success, not the cause.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I blame the freedom fries
I've never said it was the only reason. It's one of the reasons, though.
Log into SW:TOR, it's free now. Have a look. The space stations are just as packed as WoW server city hubs. Compared to other games like LOTRO which are really on the verge of failing (very few people in major quest hubs even at prime time), SW:TOR is doing well now after moving to F2P.
My computer is better than yours.
good for them and?
It's both cause and effect. And it's the most successful restaurant franchise in the world nowadays simply because it's everywhere. When you have millions of restaurants, you for sure gonna make more money than the steak house at the corner of your street. If people want to eat a burger somewhere in the world, they have a 90% chance of finding a McDonalds nearby... result? Yeah, you guessed it.
My point was about the McDonalds-MMO comparison, which is just as invalid even with your explanation. An MMO is available from everywhere (if we except "tight arsed" countries which restrict Net access of course). Players can choose whatever game they want. There's no location restriction where there's only one game (aka WoW) available. As I said, people went to WoW instead of EQ2 back then for one simple reason. WoW was better for most.
My computer is better than yours.
Um...... I quoted the first part of YOUR post.
What it takes to make a player happy is tied into how they feel/act. PvPers often times end up very emotional about the PvP content of a game and complain more about the tiny details than PvErs do. They are far more likely to complain about a half of a second difference in an ability animation or timer. They are far more likely to complain about class/skill balance.
My point being (as a reply to your point) is that PvPers are a far harder group to actually satisfy. That isn't even to mention that in MMOs pure PvPers are a tiny minority so building a game around them would be pointless (Darkfall 1 and 2). Most of those who PvP in MMOs PvP in battlegrounds and they do PvE as well. So you would need a game with both. Or if you wanted to focus only on battleground type of play you could make a game with something like 5v5 on a map where you try to conquer their base. Oh yeah, that is a MOBA.
In an MMO, if PvP is going to be the focus the content is very challenging for developers. It has to skirt the line of giving people things to fight over and control along with meaningful reasons to control them that doesn't give one side such an advantage that when they control them they'll win forever. The players also need some sense of accomplishment and wins (which is why battlegrounds are so popular). But as I said earlier if the idea is to make a game with open world PvP that makes PvPers happy along with having something good to do 1) It isn't any easier than PvE and errors are far less forgiving then with PvE content and 2) the market is too tiny to do it anyway.
Yep, like I keep saying, many systems intrinsic to videogame RPGs as we know them are things that are detrimental to PvP. Vertical character development, gear, etc, is all very BAD for PvP. If you instead make a game based around purely horizontal development, such as say, appearances, then are you really an RPG (the genre as we know it) anymore? Team Fortress 2 has horizontal development in the form of hats and weapons and it's not an RPG. MOBAs have lots of horizontal development. Again, not really considered to be MMORPGs (at least, not within the context of this thread, I imagine).
Even persistent realm vs realm combat is kinda bad for PvP. Because of things like zergfests and people taking over your realm while you're AFK.
Once you remove everything that's bad for PvP in an MMORPG, there isn't really going to be any "RPG" left (the genre. Not the actual role-playing, which you can do with any game).
Play your cards right and you might be able to carve out a niche with the few players who don't mind unbalanced competitive play in a persistent world. But I personally think there's no room in that Eve already occupies what little of it exists.
(as an aside, even the upcoming Warhammer 40k online game refers to itself as a combat game, not an RPG. The devs aren't under the illusions and realize that a PvP centric game simply doesn't work with too many RPG elements)
I guess it depends on what you consider to be "better off." LoL is a pvp game and it's the biggest game ever so.... the "pvp crowd" is obviously potentially huge. So it's certainly possible for MMOs to become more popular by focusing more on pvp. But I don't see why a larger playerbase is how you'd deteremine when a game is "better off." I prefer MMOs, and all games really, to be moore targeted and niche. It seems like the current trend in most forms of entertainment is to grow the playerbase/viewership/readers/whatever at the expense of targeting. Kind of sucks.
EDIT: by the way, I'm not saying you're claiming that better off = a larger playerbase. I'm kind of inferring that as the logical conclusion to what you're saying. Easier to serve would mean serving them better which would mean keeping them around or adding new players etc.
yup
I'm always amused when people use games like LoL as reference to talk about PvP in a MMORPG. Talk about comparing apples and oranges.
TiamatRoar's post just above actually gives quite a few good hints of why the two aren't even comparable.
My computer is better than yours.
what is it a hybrid or something? never heard of it
The VAST majority of players are PvE centric so you're assertion is incorrect.
League of Legends - not a MMORPG at all. Comparing PvP in that game with a MMO is like comparing PvP in an MMO with Quake 3 Arena.
My computer is better than yours.