And I don't know how you can claim that a trinity based setup does not promote coordination and teamwork? Funny, because some of the harder encounters in other MMOs required plenty of communication in order to defeat the boss.
Ah, I can offer my opinion on this. A trinity-based set-up actually doesn't promote nearly as much coordination and teamwork as a non-trinity based system. This is due to the strict scripted nature of most of these fights. I did my time in WoW, wound up specializing on a Pally tank and a Hunter. When dpsing as a hunter communication was pretty much nil. All dps has to do is follow the script, stand in the right places and max out the rotation. When tanking communications were no better. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of communications was handled by that raid mod that warns you in advance of the next big attack or event happening. Listen to the mod, follow the script, win.
It's the unscripted nature of the non-trinity style that results in a greater need for communications. Look at the latest Twilight Arbor release. Pugs without comms were screaming it's too hard. My first run was with my guild and we were all on TS. We completed the dungeon with a moderate degree of challenge because no one had the script before hand (like with every WoW raid for example) and we did trial and error. Now, that's not to say we didn't take on roles as fights progressed. However they weren't the tank/healer/dps generic role triad. It would be more along the lines of "if you get the ooze pheromone on you, drag the oozes to the puddles", or "you three kill the fire dudes while we lead the oozes through the path to the end". This took a lot more coordination due to the fact that they could change as the situation changed.
But, to summarize, the trinity does not promote as much coordination and teamwork because of the script. You don't react to changing situations, you follow the script. When there's a mod ring-leading the fight for you it's even less.
Again it is obvious what people have actually raided or were carried by the rest of the raid group. Some statements that people make just have no basis in reality.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
I am amused how people simplify the whole trinity concept to extremely Basic tank and spank encounters. I don't raid any more but when I did some raiding I could honestly say it was more advanced and complicated than anything found in gw2. There is more variety with the trinity. I've tried every single dungeon in gw2 and they are all very simplistic and they all feel the same. Wow raiding when compared to gw2 is like rocket science. Karazhan had yen times more variety and was way more fun than anything found in gw2. Anf that's just one raid which dates back to a time where gw2 wasn't even conceived.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
GW2 is a disgusting social media, everyone do everything zerg fest where everyone guilds with everybody but nothing ever actually happens and no one differs from anyone else, this makes me sick.
I have been finding a good balance between GW2 and FFXIV lately. FFXIV scratches my trinity itch with it's dungeon content and GW2s Living Story is there to fill my need for event type solo stuff.
The "trinity" is a crutch. It makes the player a non-hero entity of a collaboration of The Sword (DPS), The Shield (tank) , and The Body (healer). You're nothing without the other two, and games penalize you otherwise.
Leveling in a trinity based game is a nightmare for anything other than a DPS, unless you have direct friends (because honestly, even in those games the open world content is hardly grouped; only dungeons/raids get grouped). Healers die far too much, killing nearly nothing, and even in groups hardly get XP (thanks to healing not counting, but damage to mob only). Tanks just take forever to kill something, making leveling them a rather slow affair.
I had no issues leveling my conjurer / white mage (healer) in FFXIV to max.
It's bad game design if healing doesn't count in group / public content. From the top of my head, i can't recall one that had such bad mechanics.
I liked GW2 alot, only few big issues i had with it was lack of trinity and thus lack of any real strategy in group battles and lack of gear progression in the "endgame". Did my dungeon set, got my crafts to 400, got my exotics, got my racial t3 armor (for looks).. only thing that was left was the legendary and i really didn't care to waste that much time grinding for something that isn't really legendary in any sense.
Tier 2 Instance = Guild Wars 2 "Holy Trinity" (Guardian = Tank/Buffer, Warrior = off tank/melee dps, Ele = Heals/Support, Necro = CC/Support/Heals, Thief = DPS/debuffer, Ranger = DPS/CC/Support/Heals and so on...) with a whole new set of skills and achievements.
So easy... just have a hybrid - combat :
PvE, PvP = action style
Instance = trad. style
First MMORPG to have this, will win (both sides" will be pleased)
First MMORPG to have this, will win (both sides" will be pleased)
Sorry no - Trying to please everyone will please noone. I would never play a game where half the content was reserved for a playstyle I dislike.
It's really really simple:
GW2 does not have a trinity = I can enjoy that game.
Tonnes of other games have trinity = Those who prefer trinity can enjoy those.
I will not try to impose my preferences on them and their games. Is it impossible for them to show those of us who like GW2 the same courtesy?
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!! (repeat ad infinitum)
Yes, you are exagerrating. Either you're exaggerating or you're talking about vanilla wow, which is an era of the past.
I stopped playing somewhere around middle of WOTLK. Maybe tanks and healers do the similar damage as DPS these days.
If you stopped playing around the middle of WOTLK you would know that Prot spec classes could pretty much AoE an entire zone and kill everything without issue. So your arguments are BS. They were valid for vanilla and BC but not for wrath.
To sum up what's mentioned above: GW2 applies self responsibility to the individual player. A far better system than that of being a "crutch" or just a broken piece of a puzzle.
this ^
thats why i love GW2 and doing dungeons with friends or with people where we talk what to do on our next move, also getting specific roles in WvW or in sPvP that are closer to real life than a trinity system, where the damage comes from all together and there are people who control area, who deliver area for support, who blast fields, who engage the enemy, who scout, who finished the downed, and the list can go on ...
Closer to real life? So how exactly you and your friends dps in real life? Care to elaborate lol?
To be honest, anything not the trinity is closer to "real life". No intelligent life form willing to kill another in "real life" would focus on the hardest to kill heavily armored character first, they would kill its healers and then nuke him into oblivion.
Pretty sure tanks(talking about real tanks here) in real life are harder to kill than infantry, yet tanks are a priority to kill over infantry.
To sum up what's mentioned above: GW2 applies self responsibility to the individual player. A far better system than that of being a "crutch" or just a broken piece of a puzzle.
this ^
thats why i love GW2 and doing dungeons with friends or with people where we talk what to do on our next move, also getting specific roles in WvW or in sPvP that are closer to real life than a trinity system, where the damage comes from all together and there are people who control area, who deliver area for support, who blast fields, who engage the enemy, who scout, who finished the downed, and the list can go on ...
Closer to real life? So how exactly you and your friends dps in real life? Care to elaborate lol?
To be honest, anything not the trinity is closer to "real life". No intelligent life form willing to kill another in "real life" would focus on the hardest to kill heavily armored character first, they would kill its healers and then nuke him into oblivion.
Pretty sure tanks(talking about real tanks here) in real life are harder to kill than infantry, yet tanks are a priority to kill over infantry.
Depending on the weapon you're using they can also be easier to kill than infantry.
To sum up what's mentioned above: GW2 applies self responsibility to the individual player. A far better system than that of being a "crutch" or just a broken piece of a puzzle.
this ^
thats why i love GW2 and doing dungeons with friends or with people where we talk what to do on our next move, also getting specific roles in WvW or in sPvP that are closer to real life than a trinity system, where the damage comes from all together and there are people who control area, who deliver area for support, who blast fields, who engage the enemy, who scout, who finished the downed, and the list can go on ...
Closer to real life? So how exactly you and your friends dps in real life? Care to elaborate lol?
To be honest, anything not the trinity is closer to "real life". No intelligent life form willing to kill another in "real life" would focus on the hardest to kill heavily armored character first, they would kill its healers and then nuke him into oblivion.
Pretty sure tanks(talking about real tanks here) in real life are harder to kill than infantry, yet tanks are a priority to kill over infantry.
So if we say there were monsters (mobs) in real life, would you say they would selectively pick who to attack? Cause I am pretty sure they will go for the nearest/closest target. That's what animals seem to do. We are not talking about humans here. But then again in real life we don't use spells and swords to kill someone. We use shotguns, guns.....lazorz!!!!!...nooo wait ;D
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
To sum up what's mentioned above: GW2 applies self responsibility to the individual player. A far better system than that of being a "crutch" or just a broken piece of a puzzle.
this ^
thats why i love GW2 and doing dungeons with friends or with people where we talk what to do on our next move, also getting specific roles in WvW or in sPvP that are closer to real life than a trinity system, where the damage comes from all together and there are people who control area, who deliver area for support, who blast fields, who engage the enemy, who scout, who finished the downed, and the list can go on ...
Closer to real life? So how exactly you and your friends dps in real life? Care to elaborate lol?
To be honest, anything not the trinity is closer to "real life". No intelligent life form willing to kill another in "real life" would focus on the hardest to kill heavily armored character first, they would kill its healers and then nuke him into oblivion.
Pretty sure tanks(talking about real tanks here) in real life are harder to kill than infantry, yet tanks are a priority to kill over infantry.
Tanks also dont need infantry to deal damage, they do more damage themselves.
You know they have crapload of weapons available, cannons, machine guns, mortars....they dont throw wet noodles at the enemy and need a bunch of infantry just be able to kill something.
BUT they often dont work good in urban areas and THEN roles come into play. True roles. Tanks sure dont need help dealing damage. But they do need help with searching/clearing buildings (for example)
If you want to see roles in GW2 just go to organized WWW. Yes, www is where GW2 system shines the most and where builds and roles play a significant difference (roles like in RL not arbitrary assigned roles by intentionally gimping characters like trinitiy)
Originally posted by fivoroth I am amused how people simplify the whole trinity concept to extremely Basic tank and spank encounters.
But that is exactly what seperates a trinity based design from a non-trinity based design. Tank and spank is the default mode of the former, while not really possible in the latter.
All the complexity that can be layered on top of that, the many varied encounter mechanics you speak of, are not an intrinsic part of a trinity-based design. The are a reaction to the basic design being so overly simple. One reason why you don't see so many secondary mechanics in GW2 encounters is simply because they don't need additional elements to break up the flow of the encounter, as that already happens naturally without a tank with established aggro.
And since you're criticizing how people simplify too much, you may want to revisit the dungeons in GW2. You'll find pretty much all of them do have quite varied encounter mechanics.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus GW2 did many things good in adding new and fresh things... but also they added some things that did not work that good..
I really love how GW2 plays in open world solo PvE and all the PvP... But the gameplay in Dynamic events is a bit to much zergish.
But Dungeon instances dont work for me, they are to chaotic, and i have come to the conclusion that in this case a trinity based system is what i prefer, because it gives people distinct roles... and espescially tactics. Its the main reason i started playing other games, only playing GW2 from time to time for a good PvP match.
Sad thing is that other developers are taking the same route right now, copying GW2 features like non trinity, with nothing to replace the removal of a tactical and strategical layer from the gameplay.
It works perfectly, you just dont wanne adept thats all, you prolly played games before for long time with a specific role your use tom now suddenly you have to account for all other players and yourself in the team you eather learn it or move on.
Conclusion GW2 system is perfect for all who can adept to this wonderfull new combat system, for others sorry maybe game is not for you?
If you know what your doing its not so chaotic.
My experience if your only option is shouting cursing and blaming others becouse it fails all the time(don't mean you do that its just my experience in dungeons) then they should concider eather L2P or seek other game.
And if you by now dont see tactical and strategy in GW2 then i advice seek other game also hehe.
Its sad that so many argue about trinity and GW2 system.
Only reason i can think of is as OP stated and wants is all games are same so they dont have to learn yet another system. If this happen im 100% positive you all come even more to forums whining how all games are same and dull lol.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
So if we say there were monsters (mobs) in real life, would you say they would selectively pick who to attack? Cause I am pretty sure they will go for the nearest/closest target. That's what animals seem to do. We are not talking about humans here. But then again in real life we don't use spells and swords to kill someone. We use shotguns, guns.....lazorz!!!!!...nooo wait ;D
Not all mobs in MMORPGs are animals and stupid monsters.
Additionally animals tend to go after the weaker prey they can identify.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Originally posted by fivoroth I am amused how people simplify the whole trinity concept to extremely Basic tank and spank encounters.
But that is exactly what seperates a trinity based design from a non-trinity based design. Tank and spank is the default mode of the former, while not really possible in the latter.
All the complexity that can be layered on top of that, the many varied encounter mechanics you speak of, are not an intrinsic part of a trinity-based design. The are a reaction to the basic design being so overly simple. One reason why you don't see so many secondary mechanics in GW2 encounters is simply because they don't need additional elements to break up the flow of the encounter, as that already happens naturally without a tank with established aggro.
And since you're criticizing how people simplify too much, you may want to revisit the dungeons in GW2. You'll find pretty much all of them do have quite varied encounter mechanics.
I don't think that all the complexity layered on top of the trinity is possible with GW2's system. Can you please give examples of encounters which don't boil down to simple dps and dodge spam. I found that in GW2 in most dungeons you are better off if you are specced for maximum damage and opting out for more support oriented skills/traits actually made the encounters unnecessarily more difficult.
I just fail to see the variety in GW2's system. True you don't need a tank or a healer but that's not the point. The argument against the holy trinity is that it lacks variety. But I found much more interesting and varied encounters in WoW compared to GW2. The other thing which probably makes the game even less varied when running dungeons is that you are ultimately doing one and the same role on different heroes - dpsing, dodging and brainlessly throwing support spells. However, when playing a tank/healer/dps in WoW the different encounters seem different when playing a different role. Just give you a different perspective I guess. There is no aggro management (which at times can be fairly complicated) and resource management. Although WoW I think did throw out the aggro and resource management out of their dungeons in the later expansions, can't say as I haven't played them.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by fivoroth I am amused how people simplify the whole trinity concept to extremely Basic tank and spank encounters.
But that is exactly what seperates a trinity based design from a non-trinity based design. Tank and spank is the default mode of the former, while not really possible in the latter.
All the complexity that can be layered on top of that, the many varied encounter mechanics you speak of, are not an intrinsic part of a trinity-based design. The are a reaction to the basic design being so overly simple. One reason why you don't see so many secondary mechanics in GW2 encounters is simply because they don't need additional elements to break up the flow of the encounter, as that already happens naturally without a tank with established aggro.
And since you're criticizing how people simplify too much, you may want to revisit the dungeons in GW2. You'll find pretty much all of them do have quite varied encounter mechanics.
all the complexity layered on top of the trinity
Trinitiy is: tank, dps, heal
Amything on top of that can be done in ANY other system.
Originally posted by fivoroth I am amused how people simplify the whole trinity concept to extremely Basic tank and spank encounters.
But that is exactly what seperates a trinity based design from a non-trinity based design. Tank and spank is the default mode of the former, while not really possible in the latter.
All the complexity that can be layered on top of that, the many varied encounter mechanics you speak of, are not an intrinsic part of a trinity-based design. The are a reaction to the basic design being so overly simple. One reason why you don't see so many secondary mechanics in GW2 encounters is simply because they don't need additional elements to break up the flow of the encounter, as that already happens naturally without a tank with established aggro.
And since you're criticizing how people simplify too much, you may want to revisit the dungeons in GW2. You'll find pretty much all of them do have quite varied encounter mechanics.
I don't think that all the complexity layered on top of the trinity is possible with GW2's system. Can you please give examples of encounters which don't boil down to simple dps and dodge spam....
Sure, the entire new path in TA. There isn't a single fight in there that's "dps/dodge spam". As a matter of fact, the encounters work as well as they do because they weren't constrained by the limitations of a trinity based system.
True you don't need a tank or a healer but that's not the point. The argument against the holy trinity is that it lacks variety. But I found much more interesting and varied encounters in WoW compared to GW2.
Fair point. I disagree with your conclusion that this is a result of having or not having the trinity though. For every really cool, complex boss fight in WoW , there's at least 10 bog-standard tank'n'spank fights as well.
On the other side, each of the Living Story dungeons had boss encounters with intricate mechanics, that couldn't be spiked down with damage alone.
I can't entirely disagree with the observation that many boss encounters in GW2 aren't particularly interesting (fuck Defiance!). But the more recent examples have shown that that's a result of their rather uninspired design, not a limitation imposed on them by the combat system.
Comments
Didnt you guys got tired of repeating the same thing over the last year???
you scream everyday for something new but when something new comes, you flame it to hell.
i think the problom is you guys not the game.
Again it is obvious what people have actually raided or were carried by the rest of the raid group. Some statements that people make just have no basis in reality.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
played a million mmo's
I have been finding a good balance between GW2 and FFXIV lately. FFXIV scratches my trinity itch with it's dungeon content and GW2s Living Story is there to fill my need for event type solo stuff.
Im literally not screaming for anything new I am playing eq 1 1999 mod and loving every minute of it.
played a million mmo's
I had no issues leveling my conjurer / white mage (healer) in FFXIV to max.
It's bad game design if healing doesn't count in group / public content. From the top of my head, i can't recall one that had such bad mechanics.
I liked GW2 alot, only few big issues i had with it was lack of trinity and thus lack of any real strategy in group battles and lack of gear progression in the "endgame". Did my dungeon set, got my crafts to 400, got my exotics, got my racial t3 armor (for looks).. only thing that was left was the legendary and i really didn't care to waste that much time grinding for something that isn't really legendary in any sense.
Tier 1 Instance = Guild Wars 2 combat mechanics
Tier 2 Instance = Guild Wars 2 "Holy Trinity" (Guardian = Tank/Buffer, Warrior = off tank/melee dps, Ele = Heals/Support, Necro = CC/Support/Heals, Thief = DPS/debuffer, Ranger = DPS/CC/Support/Heals and so on...) with a whole new set of skills and achievements.
So easy... just have a hybrid - combat :
PvE, PvP = action style
Instance = trad. style
First MMORPG to have this, will win (both sides" will be pleased)
Sorry no - Trying to please everyone will please noone. I would never play a game where half the content was reserved for a playstyle I dislike.
It's really really simple:
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
I stopped playing somewhere around middle of WOTLK. Maybe tanks and healers do the similar damage as DPS these days.
If you stopped playing around the middle of WOTLK you would know that Prot spec classes could pretty much AoE an entire zone and kill everything without issue. So your arguments are BS. They were valid for vanilla and BC but not for wrath.
Pretty sure tanks(talking about real tanks here) in real life are harder to kill than infantry, yet tanks are a priority to kill over infantry.
But this is the internet and there can be only One.
/cue Princes of the Universe at your own leisure
Depending on the weapon you're using they can also be easier to kill than infantry.
Oderint, dum metuant.
So if we say there were monsters (mobs) in real life, would you say they would selectively pick who to attack? Cause I am pretty sure they will go for the nearest/closest target. That's what animals seem to do. We are not talking about humans here. But then again in real life we don't use spells and swords to kill someone. We use shotguns, guns.....lazorz!!!!!...nooo wait ;D
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Tanks also dont need infantry to deal damage, they do more damage themselves.
You know they have crapload of weapons available, cannons, machine guns, mortars....they dont throw wet noodles at the enemy and need a bunch of infantry just be able to kill something.
BUT they often dont work good in urban areas and THEN roles come into play. True roles. Tanks sure dont need help dealing damage. But they do need help with searching/clearing buildings (for example)
If you want to see roles in GW2 just go to organized WWW. Yes, www is where GW2 system shines the most and where builds and roles play a significant difference (roles like in RL not arbitrary assigned roles by intentionally gimping characters like trinitiy)
But that is exactly what seperates a trinity based design from a non-trinity based design. Tank and spank is the default mode of the former, while not really possible in the latter.
All the complexity that can be layered on top of that, the many varied encounter mechanics you speak of, are not an intrinsic part of a trinity-based design. The are a reaction to the basic design being so overly simple. One reason why you don't see so many secondary mechanics in GW2 encounters is simply because they don't need additional elements to break up the flow of the encounter, as that already happens naturally without a tank with established aggro.
And since you're criticizing how people simplify too much, you may want to revisit the dungeons in GW2. You'll find pretty much all of them do have quite varied encounter mechanics.
It works perfectly, you just dont wanne adept thats all, you prolly played games before for long time with a specific role your use tom now suddenly you have to account for all other players and yourself in the team you eather learn it or move on.
Conclusion GW2 system is perfect for all who can adept to this wonderfull new combat system, for others sorry maybe game is not for you?
If you know what your doing its not so chaotic.
My experience if your only option is shouting cursing and blaming others becouse it fails all the time(don't mean you do that its just my experience in dungeons) then they should concider eather L2P or seek other game.
And if you by now dont see tactical and strategy in GW2 then i advice seek other game also hehe.
Its sad that so many argue about trinity and GW2 system.
Only reason i can think of is as OP stated and wants is all games are same so they dont have to learn yet another system. If this happen im 100% positive you all come even more to forums whining how all games are same and dull lol.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Not all mobs in MMORPGs are animals and stupid monsters.
Additionally animals tend to go after the weaker prey they can identify.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I don't think that all the complexity layered on top of the trinity is possible with GW2's system. Can you please give examples of encounters which don't boil down to simple dps and dodge spam. I found that in GW2 in most dungeons you are better off if you are specced for maximum damage and opting out for more support oriented skills/traits actually made the encounters unnecessarily more difficult.
I just fail to see the variety in GW2's system. True you don't need a tank or a healer but that's not the point. The argument against the holy trinity is that it lacks variety. But I found much more interesting and varied encounters in WoW compared to GW2. The other thing which probably makes the game even less varied when running dungeons is that you are ultimately doing one and the same role on different heroes - dpsing, dodging and brainlessly throwing support spells. However, when playing a tank/healer/dps in WoW the different encounters seem different when playing a different role. Just give you a different perspective I guess. There is no aggro management (which at times can be fairly complicated) and resource management. Although WoW I think did throw out the aggro and resource management out of their dungeons in the later expansions, can't say as I haven't played them.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Trinitiy is: tank, dps, heal
Amything on top of that can be done in ANY other system.
Sure, the entire new path in TA. There isn't a single fight in there that's "dps/dodge spam". As a matter of fact, the encounters work as well as they do because they weren't constrained by the limitations of a trinity based system.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Fair point. I disagree with your conclusion that this is a result of having or not having the trinity though. For every really cool, complex boss fight in WoW , there's at least 10 bog-standard tank'n'spank fights as well.
On the other side, each of the Living Story dungeons had boss encounters with intricate mechanics, that couldn't be spiked down with damage alone.
I can't entirely disagree with the observation that many boss encounters in GW2 aren't particularly interesting (fuck Defiance!). But the more recent examples have shown that that's a result of their rather uninspired design, not a limitation imposed on them by the combat system.